did Ian come up with melody too?

From what I read and seen on movies, etc.. It seems like Ian wrote a lot of the lyrics for JD, but did he also come up with the vocal melodies too??

It kind of seemed like Bernard, Hook, and Stephen, would write/create the music (along with the melodies) and then Ian would put the lyrics to the melody that was already created, is that right?

Also it seems like NO is like that, meaning they get the music done first including the lead melodies. And then Bernard would go off and write words for the melodies.

So are JD and NO more on the side of say: lets create the music including lead melody first and then add the lyrics to the melodies or vice versa?? anyone know??

Sorry for this detailed strange question, just wondering how they work lol. Both JD and NO are superb bands.

thanks

Personally, I think Ian came up with most of the melodies, except for maybe with things his vocals shared parts with, like LWTUA.

I reckon this primarily because none of the others were really singing' during JD and would therefore have little idea about how best to craft a vocal line. One of JD's strengths was that they never had some knobby songwriter' directing everything, as a lot of lesser bands do. (and as NO did in their later years - no disrespect to Bernard, I love later NO work but it loses the great `band' sense of the early albums).

So yeah, I reckon it was 98% Ian, because the vocal lines are so wonderfully crafted for his voice and because they are rather untypical'. I.e. they do a lot of things that shouldn't musically work'.... like stay on the same note for ages etc, they dont resolve themselves etc.

Imagine Joy Division with latter-New Order melodies.... Would still be good but not as good lol

Just my thoughts

Procession's melody was created by Steve Morris.

Joy Division songs have melody?

Just kidding.

Generally, I think Bernard, Hooky, and Steve would come up with the music for the song, and then Ian would come up with a vocal melody that suited the music written by the others.

That being said, Ian's vocal melodies generally tended to follow either Bernard's guitar or synth melodies or Hooky's bass lines. This generally pretty common for singers who don't really play instruments.

What Ian did do musically was spot riffs from Hooky or Barney during jam sessions, he would spot a good riff and then Bernard would work with Hooky and Steve to arrange everything into a song.

New Order was far more melodic than Joy Division, this simply comes down to the guys getting better as they got older, the addition of Gillian, and Bernard and Hooky each getting better at writing melodies (Bernard with his vocals/keyboard/guitar work, Hooky with his bass lines).

As for a "knobby lead singer" leading a band...Bernard led New Order to worldwide success. And he isn't the one who broke up the band.

This topic was covered a few months ago on the thread "Hooky doing Unknown Pleasures live". I have copied most of what I said in that other thread!

Ian wrote all the lyrics and spotted the music during rehearsals. If it wasn't for Ian and his ear for the music while they were jamming during rehearsals, a lot of the music, that was later composed into those songs, would of been played once and then lost forever. Most of the time Bernard composed the songs, once Ian dictated what he liked; Ian was the eyes, ears, and voice of that band. Once he passed, their distinctive sound was lost forever.

"Ian used to spot all the riffs", remembers Peter Hook, "we'd jam, he'd stop us and say, that was good, play it again. He spotted "Insight, "She's Lost Control", all of them. It was really weird, if it hadn't been for him and his ear, we might have played them once and never played them again. You didn't even know you'd played it, half the time. You didn't notice what you're doing when you’re jamming. It's unconscious, but he was conscious". "Ian never wrote any music, but he a great orchestrator", says Bernard Sumner, "he gave us direction. He was very passionate in those moments".

Straight from Hooky and Bernard!

Zachery Starkey wrote: As for a "knobby lead singer" leading a band...Bernard led New Order to worldwide success. And he isn't the one who broke up the band.

I didn't mean to sound like I was calling Bernard a knobby lead songwriter'. I love 90% of his work. He is perhaps my favourite musician of all time. All I meant was, the early band' compositions of NO are more exciting than the latter `cooked up mainly by one person in the studio over years and years' ones.

I love Who's Joe?', Turn' and WFTSC a LOT.

But I do prefer the more `social' sound of them all in the same room cycling over a wicked riff (Dreams never end, Age of consent etc.)

I'm not blaming Bernard, it might look like that but it's only because he's the most `compositional' of them and takes the most control. I think the whole band are to blame for their noticelbly more lacklustre latter albums AND the break up. But that's how life goes. These things happen.

ally wrote: As for Joy Division from what I've read as I'm sure others have is that Curtis did most if not all of the song arrangements. This could have included piecing together several separate and meandering riffs into a melodic section. Nobody bar the band really know with 100% certainty what he came up with on that front. It's entirely possible from time to time that Ian came up with a vocal melody and the others translated it onto guitar or bass. New Dawn Fades springs to mind as having an obvious vocal melody.

If I remember correctly, according to Deborah Curtis in her biography on Ian, it was Bernard Sumner who did most of the arrangements.

ally wrote: As for Joy Division from what I've read as I'm sure others have is that Curtis did most if not all of the song arrangements. This could have included piecing together several separate and meandering riffs into a melodic section. Nobody bar the band really know with 100% certainty what he came up with on that front. It's entirely possible from time to time that Ian came up with a vocal melody and the others translated it onto guitar or bass. New Dawn Fades springs to mind as having an obvious vocal melody.

I think you hit the nail right on the head.

ally wrote: The biggest mistake I thought they made songwriting-wise in later period New Order was Jetstream. That was clearly Bernard's baby and could have easily been an Electronic track, it even had a token collaborator in the shape of Ana Matronic. It just sounds like a Bernard Sumner solo track with New Order as the anonymous backing band; it's not got the usual collective spark.

I could be wrong but didn't Hooky mention in the press around the time that he wasn't too fond of it or he wouldn't have chosen it as a single? The cracks of the split were obvious in those comments... I actually agree with Hooky on this one, Bernard should have held that one back for his own solo stuff. They should have put out Turn as a single instead.

It wasn't all bad by the end of course, tracks like Who's Joe, WFTSC and Turn clearly showed they still knew how write great songs as a collective. Each individual instrument and vocal on those tracks shine.

As for Joy Division from what I've read as I'm sure others have is that Curtis did most if not all of the song arrangements. This could have included piecing together several separate and meandering riffs into a melodic section. Nobody bar the band really know with 100% certainty what he came up with on that front. It's entirely possible from time to time that Ian came up with a vocal melody and the others translated it onto guitar or bass. New Dawn Fades springs to mind as having an obvious vocal melody.

It's a matter of opinion. I think that Jetstream is one of New Order's best Electro Pop songs. It's my favorite song on WFTSC, I love the melody, the arrangement, the electronics, the programmed drums on the verses, live drums on the chorus, the production, Barney's vocals and lyrics, and I think Hooky's bass lines on it are lovely (especially at the end).

The vocal melody in New Dawn Fades follows the guitar and bass melodies. Much like the vocal melody in LWTUA follows the synth and bass melodies. Ian's vocal melodies either followed Sumner or Hooks parts.

All the members of the band wrote their own parts, and yes, Ian spotted riffs, but spotting riffs during a jam session is not the same as writing instrumental parts and arranging songs.

That doesn't take anything away from what the others did. Only Hooky could write and play those gorgeous and driving lead bass lines, only Steven could drum like a kinetic machine, only Ian could sing the way he did and write such brilliant lyrics.

Most the of the musical arrangements in Joy Division and New Order were done by Bernard Sumner. Sumner was the musical director of the band. It's been stated in numerous interviews, books, and stories, and by Deborah Curtis herself.