Bad Lieutenant: is Bernard's heart really in it????

Don't know about the rest of you seasoned NO-watchers, but what with the recent (April) news about Bernard scrapping the progress on the Bad Lieutenant recordings AND cancellation of the US tour, I am starting to get the distinct feeling that our hero is beginning to get cold feet about the whole shebang? Perhaps he's not a touring machine after all ? Perhaps he is starting to realise that - unlike Hooky - he isn't really that overly keen on trying to play live at all, whatever the musical project he is involved with? Perhaps - most worrying of all - he's just...... bored of the whole circus - writing, recording, touring, repeated ad nauseum - and is losing his enthusiasm for the old routine. Perhaps he is feeling that, yeah, at 54 years old, he doesn't need to feel the urge or compunction to keep proving to himself and his fans that there is life after New Order... and thus may be all too aware of simply going through the motions when his heart really isn't in it?

After all, be honest with yourself - compared to the greatness of prime period New Order, nothing else could possibly match the high standards of their best output, and no amount of solo or extra-curricular or post-split projects could possibly bring back / replicate that feeling of vintage euphoria when they were at the top of their game.

To coin a rather blunt analogy, seeing these post-split projects in print (let alone hearing them when I already suspect they will be underwhelming anyway) is pretty much like trying to make love to a partner [for whom all feelings of passion, affection and even lust have long evaporated] just for old times' sake.

Flogging a dead horse? No, not exactly...... more like trying to re-stuff that old bookcase owl. No matter how you do it - it isn't going to be the same ever again! ;)

The US touring thing was about visa problems and volcanoes so I don't think we should be blaming Bernard for that. They were just unlucky at the time.

As long as the former members are happy doing whatever they're doing (Bernard w/ his mates regarding BL, Hooky doing Freebass and whatever else), I'm happy.

screw the "volcano and visa" excuse. I side with Eck, barney has proven for the last ten years or more, that he really isn't into the fans, touring, or doing anything other than releasing an album every so often.

Not exactly a balanced view IMO; as already pointed out, the cancelled US tour was due to the Iceland volcano situation - hardly fair using that as evidence that 'Barney's heart isn't in it'.

The 'scrapped' album wasn't a Bad Loo one from my understanding, it was a different project with Stuart Price - and I was under the impression it's not scrapped, it's on hold... the reason for this was because he wanted to focus his efforts on BL.

No argument that the 'solo' stuff isn't as good as peak period New Order, but nobody really ever really expected that it would be. Still, it's quality if you ask me - just not ground-breaking. Not sure I really want ground-breaking myself, just quality.

Give me BL's 'derivative' guitar pop and Barney touring over the nostalgic DJ sets, books, spoken-word tours and the like.

I'd say his heart is in it as much as it can be for someone who is launching a new band at the age of 54 without cashing in on his past - give him a break.

Just an opinion, mind... CTB

Chris Nash wrote: Rather than double standards, some people were pointing out that the Freebass setlists included a couple of NO/JD tracks as encores or whatever.

That never happened...

i've only seen them once(sheffield) and i thought bernard looked more into it than at any of the new order gigs i was at from the last few years

Chris Nash wrote: If he'd toured PCL, I'd have gone to see it!

Manchester Ritz 22/10/09

Six BL numbers followed by:

Crystal (New Order) Temptation (New Order) Out Of Control (Chemical Brothers) Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) Transmission (Joy Division) LWTUA (Joy Division)

I make that only 50% BL and that was just the first gig that came up in a random search.

I'm not saying the gig was good or bad, just pointing out that what I said was an underestimate - not a third of the live tracks but half.

Not trying to have a go at BL, just attempting to correct the previous incorrect assertions.

You're wrong, they actually played 8 BL tracks at the Manchester gig

Manchester setlist from memory

This is Home Summer Days on Holiday Sink or Swim Shine Like the Sun Running Out of Luck Poisonous Intent Dynamo Crystal Twist of Fate Tighten Up Out of Control Temptation

BLT Transmission LWTUA

Not sure wha the whole point of this thread is except for a bit of tiresome Bernard bashing.

Chris Nash wrote:

So five out of fifteen. Conclusively proves my 1/3 comment. Tiresome being right, innit?

Would have been more if they hadn't crossed off "Sirens".

Not Bernard bashing, just arguing that people say Hooky plays all this JD and NO stuff and they complain about it, saying it's tiresome, relying on back catalogue, etc... He does, but he does it as "The Light" or "U/P gigs" - simply trying to point that out.

As I said before, I'm not bothered if any of them want to play JD/NO, it's theirs afterall.

BL played EIGHT BL songs that night, not five. Eight.

When a band is touring to support a new record, they will generally do 7 to 8 songs from their new, current album, and then the other 45% percent of the set will consist of material from previous albums.

This is what BL are doing. Except...BL only have one record, and BL is made up of 3/4th's of New Order (yes, PHIL is not as important to NO as Gillian was but he is still an official member) and 2/4th's of Joy Division....so, any songs from previous records would come from those bands.

And I think Bernard is clearly enjoying BL, and was probably gutted about the bad luck with the two canceled US tours. They had high profile gigs for both tours.

Also, Freebass only played 8 songs (that's the same new stuff as BL), and only played for an hour... :p

Chris Nash wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

BL played EIGHT BL songs that night, not five. Eight.

You've completely missed the point. Five (non BL songs)out of fifteen is 1/3.

Nick - they were all Freebass songs, played as "Freebass"...

Twobass - Andy Rourke wasn't there!

Nick King wrote: Also, Freebass only played 8 songs (that's the same new stuff as BL), and only played for an hour... :p

and they were fucking shit.

I remember feeling the same through the BL gigs, but at least wondering which of the oldies they were going to play, and getting some relief from the tedium when they did.

Crap argument, Mr Nash, as per always showing bizarre bias. You really need to get a room with Mr H.

I think Bernard's heart has been in it. The sales from the album have to be horrible by 80s-90s standards. Has it got much attention anywhere except here? Is Bernard's savings account really in it also? Have to tour to make money, have to play a lot of older songs to try to get ticket buyers. The tour cancellations can't have helped.

How many times have you made fun of older faded rock stars going out on the road with a band of newer replacements playing their 30 year old songs to an audience who only wants to hear 30 year old songs? Maybe bring along the drummer to add some cred or a son of a band member. Kinda sad that is how New Order ended up. And the BL and Freebass albums are barely a notch above a myspace band in distribution. They gotta play the old songs.

Saying that Bad Lieutenant won't reach the heights of "prime era" New Order is like saying it gets dark at night. Everyone knows it's not as good nor is it intended to be. I tended to believe him when he said he just wanted to form a band with a few people he got on with and release some tunes. Taken as it's meant, it's an alright album; won't set the world on fire but he never said it would.

Exactly! Freebass neither Bad Lieutenant are going to satisfy everyone---that's very obvious. I don't think anyone would truly expect their output to be superior than New Order. But if someone likes their music and buys their music, or goes to their gigs or whatnot, then so be it.

(Yes I admit that I was sceptical when Bernard first mentioned to the press about the name Bad Lieutenant a few years ago, but as the Songbook footage came up and more information came out regarding the album, I noticed that he wasn't joking).

Do I think that NCAT is a masterpiece? No. But do I find the album nice and pleasant to listen to? Yes. I don't know any of the members so I can't really say much, but I would like to believe that both Bernard and Hooky have their hearts in whatever they're doing musically---regardless of how 'popular' it may or may not be. I think both are passionate about music in their own ways. (Of course passionate doesn't necessarily translate to 'masterpiece album' but I'd like to think they're living their lives to the fullest).

Writing music has and always will be in Barney's DNA. I doubt he'll pack it whilst he can still pick up a guitar and a pen. So long as he keeps going I'll keep listening.

leather_girl wrote:

Saying that Bad Lieutenant won't reach the heights of "prime era" New Order is like saying it gets dark at night. Everyone knows it's not as good nor is it intended to be. I tended to believe him when he said he just wanted to form a band with a few people he got on with and release some tunes. Taken as it's meant, it's an alright album; won't set the world on fire but he never said it would.

Exactly! Freebass neither Bad Lieutenant are going to satisfy everyone---that's very obvious. I don't think anyone would truly expect their output to be superior than New Order. But if someone likes their music and buys their music, or goes to their gigs or whatnot, then so be it.

(Yes I admit that I was sceptical when Bernard first mentioned to the press about the name Bad Lieutenant a few years ago, but as the Songbook footage came up and more information came out regarding the album, I noticed that he wasn't joking).

Do I think that NCAT is a masterpiece? No. But do I find the album nice and pleasant to listen to? Yes. I don't know any of the members so I can't really say much, but I would like to believe that both Bernard and Hooky have their hearts in whatever they're doing musically---regardless of how 'popular' it may or may not be. I think both are passionate about music in their own ways. (Of course passionate doesn't necessarily translate to 'masterpiece album' but I'd like to think they're living their lives to the fullest).

You said it best, seeing Bernard during the Songbook footage, you could see he was quite into "Sink Or Swim", I instantly knew we were going to get a quality tune. NCAT is what it is, it's a solo project record, he toured it quite extensively, and even though I bought NY tickets twice, i'm not let down by them missing both gigs, I can see his hearts still into it.

Live, Barney seems as committed to a decent performance than I ever saw him with New Order. And the crowd at the Platt Fields gig were every bit as enthusiastic (apart from me, I was somewhere near the back with a broken rib and Steve's chiropodist )

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: screw the "volcano and visa" excuse. I side with Eck, barney has proven for the last ten years or more, that he really isn't into the fans, touring, or doing anything other than releasing an album every so often.

The facts don't back up your assumptions. BL have - especially by Bernard's moody standards - toured their arses off. Surprisingly even more than gigaholic Hooky's Freebass (so far). UK dates, UK festivals, French dates, German dates and only last weekend played Roskilde in Denmark. They supported Pet Shop Boys for the length of their UK tour. If Bernard really isn't into touring or "the fans" then surely none of the above would have occurred?

Bit of a non-thread this

When Barney tours, he stays in Europe. Seems more touring for convenience and the pocketbook, rather than for fans. Not that at his age I entirely blame him, but the same went for late NO, barely any tours outside Europe. Not to mention little to no money has been used to promote any of the bands here in the Western part of the globe for the last 15 years. Hooky has come out here on many occasions, especially during his DJing fling. It seems to me one of the deciding factors that broke up the band, Hooky wanted to get out more and Barney wanted to play only in the local backyard. I think Barney thanked his lucky stars on the tour failing in the US... its not like he is quick to reschedule any dates.

It does take time and money to do massive world tours and to tour outside Europe (geographically speaking), although NO did come to Fuji Rock Festival here in 2001 and in 2005---I couldn't go because I was too young and everything. Hooky came to the Summer Sonic Festival as a DJ back in 2007, and Freebass will be at Summer Sonic Festival this year.

If any of them come to this side of the world, I would love for them to do individual gigs instead of just festivals, but in the end, they should schedule their tours and dates at their own pace---we shouldn't be putting extra pressure on them.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Not to mention little to no money has been used to promote any of the bands here in the Western part of the globe for the last 15 years.

They're a English band, they live in England... I'm not sure what you're after here? Them to move to your neighbourhood and play your back garden? (sorry, yard) For each respective New Order album there has been a reasonable sized US tour, it's not their fault you couldn't be arsed going. BL planned dates but stuff outside their control cancelled them.

Because four dates is a reasonable size tour? Any other similar-sized UK band has at least four dates in California alone, not to mention other areas and cities. I don't want them to move here, but if they are going to fly out all this way, why not have a MORE reasonable tour in the US?

I don't recall in any interviews Hooky directly citing a lack of American tours for the breakup of New Order in 2006. If anything he was the one saying stuff like "I don't know if I want to be playing Perfect Kiss live when I'm 60". Lack of exotic touring destinations seems to have had precisely sod all to do with the break up of the band so that one doesn't really fly. They'd all just gotten back from a Sarf American tour as well!

Yeah, and how many dates were attached to that tour? I think that says it all!
No Hooky never mentioned US tours directly, but he did say: "I couldn’t carry on working the way they were working and I didn’t like the attitude. Unless that attitude changes then it’s of no interest to me. I felt we had different ambitions from what the group was supposed to be about and it didn’t make sense to me." and somewhere else I heard that Hooky wanted to tour more extensively for WFTSC, but that Barney didn't.

When the first set of Bad Loot US dates were cancelled they rescheduled them pretty promptly; they even added more venues I believe?

and where are these elusive rescheduled dates? Not on their official website it ain't. There has been sod all talk about a reschedule other than the week the volcano occurred, as far I am aware of.

EdelBrock wrote:

and where are these elusive rescheduled dates? Not on their official website it ain't. There has been sod all talk about a reschedule other than the week the volcano occurred, as far I am aware of.

The 'volcano dates' (let's call them) were rescheduled dates from when Jake couldn't get a visa in time. I don't think you bought a ticket for any of these dates either.

And i imagine they are in no rush to reschedule again, especially as they got as far as the airport last time. They must think they are cursed.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: Why don't you write a letter of whinge directly to Barney then chastising him for his lack of accommodation when it comes to you seeing New Order?

Or BL management?

Seriously.

I really think BL need to liaise re: EB's diary, and send a cab to pick him up, if they ever play near him.

And also consult world seismology and vulcanology experts before booking.

Burt Burterson wrote:

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: Why don't you write a letter of whinge directly to Barney then chastising him for his lack of accommodation when it comes to you seeing New Order?

Or BL management?

Seriously.

I really think BL need to liaise re: EB's diary, and send a cab to pick him up, if they ever play near him.

And also consult world seismology and vulcanology experts before booking.

Damn skippy!

Easy for you guys to say when they tour almost constantly around you. And no I didn't purchase the $300+ just for the ticket alone, to see NO-lite... a reasonable venue yes, but $300+

EdelBrock wrote: Because four dates is a reasonable size tour? Any other similar-sized UK band has at least four dates in California alone, not to mention other areas and cities. I don't want them to move here, but if they are going to fly out all this way, why not have a MORE reasonable tour in the US?

4 dates in a country outside the UK is pretty decent for the 'compact' sized tours BL are trying to do.

I read music magazines here, and there's always info about artists touring here and their schedules. Even big name foreign artists who play stadiums are lucky to get 4 to 6 gigs or so, and the lesser known artists or new artists are lucky to get 1 or 2 dates.

Now I know the US is much bigger than Japan overall, but even then I still think 4 dates in a country outside of the UK in a compact sized tour, by a band who aren't known enough to play huge stadiums, is pretty good.

leather_girl wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Because four dates is a reasonable size tour? Any other similar-sized UK band has at least four dates in California alone, not to mention other areas and cities. I don't want them to move here, but if they are going to fly out all this way, why not have a MORE reasonable tour in the US?

4 dates in a country outside the UK is pretty decent for the 'compact' sized tours BL are trying to do.

I read music magazines here, and there's always info about artists touring here and their schedules. Even big name foreign artists who play stadiums are lucky to get 4 to 6 gigs or so, and the lesser known artists or new artists are lucky to get 1 or 2 dates.

Now I know the US is much bigger than Japan overall, but even then I still think 4 dates in a country outside of the UK in a compact sized tour, by a band who aren't known enough to play huge stadiums, is pretty good.

These four dates were about NO, not BL. BL I understand would have a much smaller venue and less of them, such is the call for side projects... but NO could easily command more if they wanted to... and my feeling is that Barney is the main reason for the lack of venues on tours outside of Europe.... and thus one of the driving points of Hooky wanting to leave NO. BL seems more to me like Barney's way of proving Hooky "wrong"... almost how people tend to go off the deep end right after a bitter divorce, to prove their ex-spouse was "wrong" about them.

EdelBrock wrote:

leather_girl wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Because four dates is a reasonable size tour? Any other similar-sized UK band has at least four dates in California alone, not to mention other areas and cities. I don't want them to move here, but if they are going to fly out all this way, why not have a MORE reasonable tour in the US?

4 dates in a country outside the UK is pretty decent for the 'compact' sized tours BL are trying to do.

I read music magazines here, and there's always info about artists touring here and their schedules. Even big name foreign artists who play stadiums are lucky to get 4 to 6 gigs or so, and the lesser known artists or new artists are lucky to get 1 or 2 dates.

Now I know the US is much bigger than Japan overall, but even then I still think 4 dates in a country outside of the UK in a compact sized tour, by a band who aren't known enough to play huge stadiums, is pretty good.

These four dates were about NO, not BL. BL I understand would have a much smaller venue and less of them, such is the call for side projects... but NO could easily command more if they wanted to... and my feeling is that Barney is the main reason for the lack of venues on tours outside of Europe.... and thus one of the driving points of Hooky wanting to leave NO. BL seems more to me like Barney's way of proving Hooky "wrong"... almost how people tend to go off the deep end right after a bitter divorce, to prove their ex-spouse was "wrong" about them.

To put things into perspective...think about it this way: maybe NO didn't tour the US as much as you wanted to in their later years. But the fact that BL tried to schedule at least four dates in the US despite their new band being less well known is quite nice in comparison. I think NO's breakup is far more complicated than just touring issues, as other users have pointed out.

Even though I don't get to go to gigs much, I still am happy and extremely grateful if any foreign artist chooses to tour here even for one gig---I'm happy that there are people who can go to that one special gig even if it's not me. I don't think Barney and his friends have some conspiracy going on about touring & the US. I know you might be bitter about things, but I think you're reading too much into the touring schedule overall.

There are many many countries in the world that NO and/or BL have never been to. The US is one country where they've tried to tour quite a bit compared to other non-UK countries. (Maybe not a lot in the recent years but still... the US is 'luckier' than other countries in that respect).

Look, it's expensive to tour without label support (money), and they've had two goes at the States and lost money trying. Try not to read too much into this.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

leather_girl wrote: To put things into perspective...think about it this way: maybe NO didn't tour the US as much as you wanted to in their later years. But the fact that BL tried to schedule at least four dates in the US despite their new band being less well known is quite nice in comparison. I think NO's breakup is far more complicated than just touring issues, as other users have pointed out.

What she said.

I don't hear EdelBrock whining about Freebass not showing up in California? Again, some shocking double-standards from the usual suspects. Even after many of their assumptions and assertions have been roundly proven wrong.

On these forums over the years there have typically been two groups of international giggers. The first group enthusiastically try to see the band where they can sometimes arranging a specific trip nationally or abroad to achieve this. The second bitch and moan that the band aren't playing their local stadium and make no effort to do anything other than bleat on with entitlement.

Well considering FB's album came out a lot later than BL's and also FB is a true side project, whereas BL is a new band (simply NO without Hooky)... but that is beside the point.

I'm not sitting here whining about BL not coming here, I was agreeing with the original thread title that mentioned Barney's heart really isn't into BL, and I was adding that he hasn't been into music for at least 15 years now, at least the touring part... and touring outside of Europe shows this.

Sorry you feel I'm attacking your icon and that you must defend their honor :knight:

As for me waiting for them to come to my local neighborhood... well two times they were here I was deployed, the other my ex-gf took my tickets and watched them without me, so that argument doesn't even hold any water. I don't hold my bad luck against the band... keep with the original topic will ya?

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Perhaps he's not a touring machine after all ? Perhaps he is starting to realise that - unlike Hooky - he isn't really that overly keen on trying to play live at all, whatever the musical project he is involved with? ;)

Erm, surely every New Order fan of any worth has known for the last 20+ years that Bernard fucking HATES touring; he's hardly hidden it.

jake atkinson wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Perhaps he's not a touring machine after all ? Perhaps he is starting to realise that - unlike Hooky - he isn't really that overly keen on trying to play live at all, whatever the musical project he is involved with? ;)

Erm, surely every New Order fan of any worth has known for the last 20+ years that Bernard fucking HATES touring; he's hardly hidden it.

So you agree with Eck! then?

You only had to go out to the Paris gig, and in particular the FNAC instore to see that Bernard was taking this quite seriously. He really needn't need to face a load of hecklers. And i can't really see how he's possibly made any money out of BL.

Now I didn't buy the Bad Lieutenant album because I thought the first single was rubbish, but the song that Burt has brought to my attention is quite good. Lots of chords and chord phrases. Good show, Burt!

Given the health problems that Dave Gahan faced on the last Depeche Mode tour, maybe it isn't unwise for Bernard to take things a little easier these days...

Empress Touch wrote:

Given the health problems that Dave Gahan faced on the last Depeche Mode tour, maybe it isn't unwise for Bernard to take things a little easier these days...

Less of the Gahan stuff round here purleasee.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: The assumption put forward by Eck and supported by you is "Bernard's heart isn't really in Bad Lieutenant". So far the only piece of evidence for this assumption you've put forward is that he doesn't play the US much and probably split up New Order because of that preference.

First off, I keep talking about touring outside of the Europe, there is more outside of Europe than the US, so quit putting words in my mouth I never said.

My point is that Barney hasn't been into music for a long time, which leads to less touring, and the culmination of Barney not having his heart into the music lead to Hooky getting frustrated (I never said touring is what caused it, its one of the many things that lead to it).

I don't think BL was made to make money, rather it was to spite Hooky and show off how "wrong" he was... similar to how people act after a bitter divorce.

EdelBrock wrote:

jake atkinson wrote:

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote:

Perhaps he's not a touring machine after all ? Perhaps he is starting to realise that - unlike Hooky - he isn't really that overly keen on trying to play live at all, whatever the musical project he is involved with? ;)

Erm, surely every New Order fan of any worth has known for the last 20+ years that Bernard fucking HATES touring; he's hardly hidden it.

So you agree with Eck! then?

God no, I'm just saying that whatever band it has been in the last 20 or so years he's hated touring! Doesn't mean that his heart isn't in the band though.

the impression I got was that Bernard doesn't like touring with Hooky, and vice-versa. that's all

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote:

Which is still total bollocks, when you consider:

1999: Electronic - Twisted Tenderness (Album + Singles + Promo) 2000: Primal Scream - Shoot Speed/Kill Light (Guitar) 2000: The Chemical Brothers - Out of Control (Vocals + Guitar) 2001: New Order - Get Ready + World Tour 2002: New Order - Here To Stay/Such A Good Thing 2005: New Order - Waiting For The Sirens' Call + World Tour 2005: New Order - WFTSC Left-over Sessions 2006: Forms new band with Phil C, Alex James & Jake Evans. 2008: Blank & Jones - Miracle Cure (Vocals + Guitar) 2009-10: Bad Lieutenant - Never Cry Another Tour + Promo + European Tour

To name but a few.... "hasn't been into music for a long time"

A couple guest appearances and the strained NO albums hardly counts. I think Hook states it plainly: "I couldn't carry on working the way they were working and I didn't like the attitude. Unless that attitude changes then its of no interest to me." He added: "I felt we had different ambitions from what the group was supposed to be about and it didn't make sense to me."

New Order toured various countries within South America on the most recent 2006 tour. I've mentioned that twice and you've totally ignored it. That's outside of the US and "the Europe" isn't it? Bad Loot have played shows in the UK, France, Germany, Denmark and (shit luck aside) would have played a reasonable tour of the US. Fact. They rescheduled once but because they've not rescheduled quite as quickly as you'd like a second time "Bernard's heart is not in the band". Not really a great argument.

Because they traveled so EXTENSIVELY in South America... how many gigs were there again? How many in Asia (especially Japan)? Hardly a "World Tour" as most bands complete.

It's a bit overkill, extremely costly and time intensive process to form a band, write a record and tour it solely to show an ex-band mate "he was wrong" don't you think? Isn't it slightly more reasonable to assume as New Order became defunct and Bernard as a musician of roughly 30 years decided to keep his hand in the game and start something new? Surely not everything Hooky and Bernard do is about each other; presumably they're quite capable of concentrating on solo pursuits with just as much enthusiasm as they did within New Order? (Tip: see Monaco & Electronic - both bands achieved sizeable success outside of NO)

Bernard couldn't work with Hooky after 2006 and vice versa. Not taking sides but that's just fact and both of them said so in interview. So is Freebass also Hooky telling Bernard how "wrong" he was too? Or are they immune from this criticism? Hooky might have something to say about that assumption as I bet he is also doing Freebass for his own enjoyment with a few mates rather than trying to show Bernard what he's missing

Before split, from Hook: Hook says Bernard Sumner is particularly resistant to moving forward on any archival projects. "Bernard sort of dislikes the past; he's quite open about that. And he dislikes our live past even more," Hook explains. "It's quite sad, really. As I've gotten older, I think there's a lot more value to your history being judged."

After the Split: How many JD and NO songs are in the BL lineup in a gig now?

Have you ever seen people after a bitter divorce? They do ALOT of things they normally wouldn't, and spend lots of money and time doing it. Its really not that much of a stretch.

But go on, man in shining armor, protect Barney... as if he really needs protecting

What a load of bollocks.

Ok.. where do i start.. In Brighton. A town about 250 miles from Manchester where BL played their debut gig about a year ago in front of about 500 people.

A few people from this site were there, ready to abuse Barney (as is the Manc tradition). They shuffled onstage, started nervously, and we heckled the bollocks out of them. But slowly, they grew in confidence, and won us over. By the gig at Heaven in London the next night, it was a love in. Like shagging an old ex dirty girlfriend after a five year hiatus.

Anyone there could never question commitment. Musically yes, they are not great. Money? can't see Barney making any money out of touring. It would probably be a loss every time. But balls for doing it? no question.

As a person who has done about 25-30 odd gigs in different countries with many miles, i find it amusing to see someone question things who hasn't ever been to a gig in 25 years, despite NO playing over a 100 gigs in his country.

If you actually get up off yer 'ass' and do a gig, when they do rebook, then I'm sure you can comment on commitment. But it would require commitment first, by actually booking a ticket and getting off the couch and going.

I think it'd be unreasonable to expect that NO should have toured every part of the world extensively, given Bernard's thoughts about touring and perhaps whatever was happening w/ him & Hooky. However I do believe he tries to make the most out of the touring experience, because obviously he can't stand on stage w/ an angry face saying to the people that he hates touring.

At least BL have been touring at their own pace and the fact that he feels he can get on w/ the members of BL...without that, I think he might've been more miserable on tour.

PS- Considering how there are other countries NO haven't been to, I do not intend to criticise the number of times they've been to Japan or S. America. I think they tried their hardest to go wherever they could. And I still believe Hooky & Barney have their hearts in whatever they do musically.

leather_girl wrote:

However I do believe he tries to make the most out of the touring experience, because obviously he can't stand on stage w/ an angry face saying to the people that he hates touring.

At least BL have been touring at their own pace and the fact that he feels he can get on w/ the members of BL...without that, I think he might've been more miserable on tour.

I'm sure he does what he can handle. If however, he does tour say for example the US, and people like say, Edelbrock still don't turn up with 20 years of excuses then it makes their gripes somewhat irrelevant.

I'm sure if NO reformed or even BL came to Japan, you would do your best to get to see them.

It's difficult for me to go to gigs now but even if I couldn't go, I'd be grateful because that means someone else here would be able to go. I'm not trying to take sides specifically and I know I'm younger than many on here, but I don't think it's possible to prove that Barney and Hooky haven't had their hearts in whatever they do.

As a musician myself, I will say this in regards to touring.

I love to write songs. I love to record songs. I love being in the studio, making art, music, being creative.

However, touring and putting on shows is stressful, and it can be a real pain in the ass.

Now, the performance itself is another thing. I hate all of the arranging and stress that go with organizing a tour or concert...

But once I am onstage performing, it's heaven.

I think Bernard is similar. He has said, many times, that his favorite thing to do is actually write, record, and create the music. Touring is a required evil, and he doesn't like the stress that comes from it, but once he is onstage, I think its obvious from his performances that he is enjoying himself.

Bernard clearly has his heart into Bad Lieutenant. His songwriting on NCAT is fantastic. Yes, it's not a terrible innovative record, but it is a solid record full of great songs and containing a lot of the memorable qualities that Bernard brought to New Order. His singing on the record is fantastic, and some of his lyrics are inspired (Summer Days, Walk on Silver Water, Poisonous Intent, even parts of Falling Trees). It's clear that his heart is in it.

Just because he doesn't like touring doesn't mean he doesn't love to be creative and to make music.

Seems to me like people have this really personal bias against Barney...do they mentally identify with Hooky? Like, they see themselves in Hooky?

Good lord, you'd think I was cursing the Pope in the Vatican.

Mike, fact of the matter is, NO haven't toured like similar sized UK bands since Technique... which is when the strain of the group really seemed to increase. Hooky has mentioned in many articles about Barney's work ethic being a source of conflict. He's mentioned it for years, its not new news or something I am assuming... Now all of a sudden Barney's work ethic changes once Hooky leaves? hmmmmmmmm.... it ain't rocket science here.

What my gig record has to do with the above is beyond me.

Sorry if I tarnished your edifacies, here use this as a peace offering

Zachery Starkey wrote: As a musician myself, I will say this in regards to touring.

I love to write songs. I love to record songs. I love being in the studio, making art, music, being creative.

However, touring and putting on shows is stressful, and it can be a real pain in the ass.

Now, the performance itself is another thing. I hate all of the arranging and stress that go with organizing a tour or concert...

But once I am onstage performing, it's heaven.

I think Bernard is similar. He has said, many times, that his favorite thing to do is actually write, record, and create the music. Touring is a required evil, and he doesn't like the stress that comes from it, but once he is onstage, I think its obvious from his performances that he is enjoying himself.

Bernard cleary has his heart into Bad Lieutenant. His songwriting on NCAT is fantastic. Yes, it's not a terrible innovative record, but it is a solid record full of great songs and containing a lot of the memorable qualities that Bernard brought to New Order. His singing on the record is fantastic, and some of his lyrics are inspired (Summer Days, Walk on Silver Water, Poisonous Intent, even parts of Falling Trees). It's clear that his heart is in it.

Finally a more sensible answer. To this I can agree.

EdelBrock wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote: As a musician myself, I will say this in regards to touring.

I love to write songs. I love to record songs. I love being in the studio, making art, music, being creative.

However, touring and putting on shows is stressful, and it can be a real pain in the ass.

Now, the performance itself is another thing. I hate all of the arranging and stress that go with organizing a tour or concert...

But once I am onstage performing, it's heaven.

I think Bernard is similar. He has said, many times, that his favorite thing to do is actually write, record, and create the music. Touring is a required evil, and he doesn't like the stress that comes from it, but once he is onstage, I think its obvious from his performances that he is enjoying himself.

Bernard cleary has his heart into Bad Lieutenant. His songwriting on NCAT is fantastic. Yes, it's not a terrible innovative record, but it is a solid record full of great songs and containing a lot of the memorable qualities that Bernard brought to New Order. His singing on the record is fantastic, and some of his lyrics are inspired (Summer Days, Walk on Silver Water, Poisonous Intent, even parts of Falling Trees). It's clear that his heart is in it.

Finally a more sensible answer. To this I can agree.

Cheers mate!

Mike, fact of the matter is, NO haven't toured like similar sized UK bands since Technique... which is when the strain of the group really seemed to increase. Hooky has mentioned in many articles about Barney's work ethic being a source of conflict. He's mentioned it for years, its not new news or something I am assuming... Now all of a sudden Barney's work ethic changes once Hooky leaves? hmmmmmmmm.... it ain't rocket science here.

Well the Technique tour nearly killed Bernard, no surprise that things changed after this point.

I see you use the word 'conflict' there, just imagine if you will that the 'conflict' involved might have affected Bernard's will to make music. Maybe once he wasn't spending most of the process arguing with Hooky that changed his feeling towards doing it?

A word on touring, I'm sure that BL would play large-ish tours anywhere if the demand was there, however these things are dictated by money and the likelihood of recouping any cost involved. Bernard's will doesn't come into it so much, whether they can afford it does.

he looks like hese enjoying himself from the times ive seen him.. likes been said musics in his dna,, both him and Hooky have both delivered very different musical poles to new order.. enjoy the talent, its here to stay,

existence , well what does it matter.

Of course his heart is in it. More than ever!

Stupid thread...

I'm normally the first to lay into NO's post-'Technique' projex, but this time I feel Mr Neck's comments aren't justified. For a start, the scrapped album wasn't BL, and it was discarded precisely because the guy wanted to give his all to music instead of spreading his talents too thinly. Plus, I'm a fan of the album - each to his own and all that, but for me it's one of the Barnster's most consistently enjoyable efforts in years. The sheer number of tracks says something too - around double those on NO's in their so-called hey day - and okay, quality not quantity, but it's hardly indicative of losing interest. And as for touring, Mr Sumner's been open about his dislike of the whole tour shenanagans unlike tour monster Hooky - yet BL've already notched up a respectable list of dates, far more'n Freebass! I mean how many gigs did Electronic manage? Overall then, silly thread. Which I'm now part of.

Yes, I would say Bernard's heart is in it. He seems so happy in BL interviews. Happier than I've seen him in a long time in my opinion. Like someone mentioned before he didn't do that project with Stuart Price because he wanted to give it 100% and he couldn't because of BL. So yes his heart's in as much as Bernard actually lets himself be.