Bad Lieutenant: is Bernard's heart really in it???? — Forum Archive

4 Jul 2010, 14:56

Don't know about the rest of you seasoned NO-watchers, but what with the recent (April) news about Bernard scrapping the progress on the Bad Lieutenant recordings AND cancellation of the US tour, I am starting to get the distinct feeling that our hero is beginning to get cold feet about the whole shebang? Perhaps he's not a touring machine after all ? Perhaps he is starting to realise that - unlike Hooky - he isn't really that overly keen on trying to play live at all, whatever the musical project he is involved with? Perhaps - most worrying of all - he's just...... bored of the whole circus - writing, recording, touring, repeated ad nauseum - and is losing his enthusiasm for the old routine. Perhaps he is feeling that, yeah, at 54 years old, he doesn't need to feel the urge or compunction to keep proving to himself and his fans that there is life after New Order... and thus may be all too aware of simply going through the motions when his heart really isn't in it?

After all, be honest with yourself - compared to the greatness of prime period New Order, nothing else could possibly match the high standards of their best output, and no amount of solo or extra-curricular or post-split projects could possibly bring back / replicate that feeling of vintage euphoria when they were at the top of their game.

To coin a rather blunt analogy, seeing these post-split projects in print (let alone hearing them when I already suspect they will be underwhelming anyway) is pretty much like trying to make love to a partner [for whom all feelings of passion, affection and even lust have long evaporated] just for old times' sake.

Flogging a dead horse? No, not exactly...... more like trying to re-stuff that old bookcase owl. No matter how you do it - it isn't going to be the same ever again! ;)

4 Jul 2010, 18:27

The US touring thing was about visa problems and volcanoes so I don't think we should be blaming Bernard for that. They were just unlucky at the time.

As long as the former members are happy doing whatever they're doing (Bernard w/ his mates regarding BL, Hooky doing Freebass and whatever else), I'm happy.

5 Jul 2010, 01:19

screw the "volcano and visa" excuse. I side with Eck, barney has proven for the last ten years or more, that he really isn't into the fans, touring, or doing anything other than releasing an album every so often.

5 Jul 2010, 01:23

By 'Eck! My Neck! wrote: what with the recent (April) news about Bernard scrapping the progress on the Bad Lieutenant recordings AND cancellation of the US tour

The stuff he was working on with Stuart Price was cancelled, not Bad Lieutenant. The reason he gave for that was wanting to concentrate on BL which answers "is his heart really in it" with a Yes. He cancelled another potential side project to give the band his full attention.

The US tours were cancelled due to visa issues and then the volcanic ash. Simply rotten luck. They probably lost a chunk cash over those missed gigs, not to mention all the crew they had on the payroll ready to go stuck at Manc airport on the day. Nothing to do with Bernard's "mood" unless he can explode magma with telekinesis.

Saying that Bad Lieutenant won't reach the heights of "prime era" New Order is like saying it gets dark at night. Everyone knows it's not as good nor is it intended to be. I tended to believe him when he said he just wanted to form a band with a few people he got on with and release some tunes. Taken as it's meant, it's an alright album; won't set the world on fire but he never said it would.

EdelBrock wrote: screw the "volcano and visa" excuse. I side with Eck, barney has proven for the last ten years or more, that he really isn't into the fans, touring, or doing anything other than releasing an album every so often.

The facts don't back up your assumptions. BL have - especially by Bernard's moody standards - toured their arses off. Surprisingly even more than gigaholic Hooky's Freebass (so far). UK dates, UK festivals, French dates, German dates and only last weekend played Roskilde in Denmark. They supported Pet Shop Boys for the length of their UK tour. If Bernard really isn't into touring or "the fans" then surely none of the above would have occurred?

Bit of a non-thread this :shrug:

5 Jul 2010, 01:46

Not exactly a balanced view IMO; as already pointed out, the cancelled US tour was due to the Iceland volcano situation - hardly fair using that as evidence that 'Barney's heart isn't in it'.

The 'scrapped' album wasn't a Bad Loo one from my understanding, it was a different project with Stuart Price - and I was under the impression it's not scrapped, it's on hold... the reason for this was because he wanted to focus his efforts on BL.

No argument that the 'solo' stuff isn't as good as peak period New Order, but nobody really ever really expected that it would be. Still, it's quality if you ask me - just not ground-breaking. Not sure I really want ground-breaking myself, just quality.

Give me BL's 'derivative' guitar pop and Barney touring over the nostalgic DJ sets, books, spoken-word tours and the like.

I'd say his heart is in it as much as it can be for someone who is launching a new band at the age of 54 without cashing in on his past - give him a break.

Just an opinion, mind... CTB :bear:

5 Jul 2010, 05:01

CTB wrote: Give me BL's 'derivative' guitar pop and Barney touring over the nostalgic DJ sets, books, spoken-word tours and the like.

I do believe some fans here actually had a go at Bernard for playing stuff like Transmish, Temptation and LWTUA at the Bad Loot shows. All sorts of accusations about him not being able to tour BL without cashing in on his past and calculating how much of the set list were new songs etc. However when it came to Hooky with the Hacienda stuff and touring whole JD albums it's suddenly "fair play he's entitled to make money off his previous work".

Now I'm not slating Hooky in the least but there are some shocking double standards on here at times :laugh: I try to be impartial, even bought a ticket to see Hooky do this UP thing so I can give it the benefit of the doubt.

5 Jul 2010, 05:59

Rather than double standards, some people were pointing out that the Freebass setlists included a couple of NO/JD tracks as encores or whatever.

With BL, at least a third of the sets weren't made up of the tracks from the album, but instead were JD/NO/Chems/Electronic tracks.

The difference being that when Hooky played as "The Light" or did the Unknown Pleasures tour, it wasn't under the banner of Freebass.

As many people here seemed to quite like the BL album, I would have thought they'd have liked to hear more of it live rather than padding out the set with tracks from previous bands.

They've all got the right to play stuff from their back catalogue, but if you go to see a band, surely it's to hear the new album, the band's singles and maybe a couple of oldies? :shrug:

5 Jul 2010, 06:04

Chris Nash wrote: Rather than double standards, some people were pointing out that the Freebass setlists included a couple of NO/JD tracks as encores or whatever.

That never happened...

:smoking:

5 Jul 2010, 06:20

Chris, if Bernard had decided to tour PC&L or any other previous album around the country you would've been first in line to give him and the idea a verbal shoeing :laugh: I mean seriously, you would be.

Chris Nash wrote: if you go to see a band, surely it's to hear the new album, the band's singles and maybe a couple of oldies?

That's exactly what they did and two thirds is the majority of the set. The lion's share of the setlist was from Never Cry Another Tear, a couple of obscure ones for the fans in the shape of Tighten Up and Out Of Control and of course the JDNO ones. In the three times I saw them live each time they showcased the album first and foremost, no doubt about that.

Out of Control and Tighten Up were great. He's not going to make much money from playing those, I bet he dusted them off to give the fans something "new". He could have just put in zero effort and played Blue Monday which would have been a snooze-fest.

5 Jul 2010, 06:50

If he'd toured PCL, I'd have gone to see it! :nod:

Manchester Ritz 22/10/09

Six BL numbers followed by:

Crystal (New Order) Temptation (New Order) Out Of Control (Chemical Brothers) Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) Transmission (Joy Division) LWTUA (Joy Division)

I make that only 50% BL and that was just the first gig that came up in a random search.

I'm not saying the gig was good or bad, just pointing out that what I said was an underestimate - not a third of the live tracks but half.

Not trying to have a go at BL, just attempting to correct the previous incorrect assertions.

5 Jul 2010, 08:28

At other gigs they played 8 Bad Lieutenant songs which for a 12-13 track album is a pretty good representation of their material. The Ritz was obviously a shorter curfew.

I suppose the rest comes down to whether you have a problem with them playing the older tracks. Which I don't think many people had a problem with. NCAT got a good airing at those gigs despite the occasional shorter set.

5 Jul 2010, 09:10

Must say, I did enjoy their rendition of "Out Of Control" :nod:

5 Jul 2010, 09:26

i've only seen them once(sheffield) and i thought bernard looked more into it than at any of the new order gigs i was at from the last few years

5 Jul 2010, 09:52

Chris Nash wrote: If he'd toured PCL, I'd have gone to see it!

Manchester Ritz 22/10/09

Six BL numbers followed by:

Crystal (New Order) Temptation (New Order) Out Of Control (Chemical Brothers) Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) Transmission (Joy Division) LWTUA (Joy Division)

I make that only 50% BL and that was just the first gig that came up in a random search.

I'm not saying the gig was good or bad, just pointing out that what I said was an underestimate - not a third of the live tracks but half.

Not trying to have a go at BL, just attempting to correct the previous incorrect assertions.

You're wrong, they actually played 8 BL tracks at the Manchester gig

5 Jul 2010, 09:54

Johnny 99 wrote:

Chris Nash wrote: If he'd toured PCL, I'd have gone to see it!

Manchester Ritz 22/10/09

Six BL numbers followed by:

Crystal (New Order) Temptation (New Order) Out Of Control (Chemical Brothers) Bizarre Love Triangle (New Order) Transmission (Joy Division) LWTUA (Joy Division)

I make that only 50% BL and that was just the first gig that came up in a random search.

I'm not saying the gig was good or bad, just pointing out that what I said was an underestimate - not a third of the live tracks but half.

Not trying to have a go at BL, just attempting to correct the previous incorrect assertions.

You're wrong, they actually played 8 BL tracks at the Manchester gig

You might want to remind the people here who wrote the reviews and supplied the setlist then. So, that makes my original estimate pretty accurate then. Thanks.

5 Jul 2010, 10:02

Manchester setlist from memory

This is Home Summer Days on Holiday Sink or Swim Shine Like the Sun Running Out of Luck Poisonous Intent Dynamo Crystal Twist of Fate Tighten Up Out of Control Temptation

BLT Transmission LWTUA

Not sure wha the whole point of this thread is except for a bit of tiresome Bernard bashing.

5 Jul 2010, 10:33

Johnny 99 wrote: Not sure wha the whole point of this thread is except for a bit of tiresome Bernard bashing.

Spot on :nod: just boring innit.

5 Jul 2010, 10:37

First SEVEN tracks of the gig from Never Cry Another Tear were played at the MCR Ritz gig. Yes what a rotter for playing those oldies at the end :laugh: the fact the band rolled out a healthy amount of their new album is indisputable Chris. It really is.

5 Jul 2010, 10:48

:abovelol:

So five out of fifteen. Conclusively proves my 1/3 comment. Tiresome being right, innit? :wink:

Would have been more if they hadn't crossed off "Sirens".

Not Bernard bashing, just arguing that people say Hooky plays all this JD and NO stuff and they complain about it, saying it's tiresome, relying on back catalogue, etc... He does, but he does it as "The Light" or "U/P gigs" - simply trying to point that out.

As I said before, I'm not bothered if any of them want to play JD/NO, it's theirs afterall.

5 Jul 2010, 11:11

Referring to your earlier comments:

Chris Nash wrote: As many people here seemed to quite like the BL album, I would have thought they'd have liked to hear more of it live rather than padding out the set with tracks from previous bands.

The MCR gig clearly shows the first seven songs were from the new album with an eighth following not long after. They missed out 4 songs?! Shocking :nonono:

Chris Nash wrote: They've all got the right to play stuff from their back catalogue, but if you go to see a band, surely it's to hear the new album, the band's singles and maybe a couple of oldies?

Again, 8 tracks from a 12 track album. Percentages of the set-list aside your assertion of them playing too much old stuff to the detriment of the newer BL songs clearly doesn't seem to be the case at all. The BL stuff was very much present and pushed to the front of the set-list at most gigs.

So your basic gripe is you don't mind them scraping the barrel of their back catalogue as much as possible just so long as they don't mix it with their new stuff like Bernard has done? Bizarre. What he could do is make Steve, Phil, Jake and Tom explicitly leave the stage before he does each NO related number :uhoh: just him and a keyboard.

5 Jul 2010, 11:15

Chris Nash wrote:

So five out of fifteen. Conclusively proves my 1/3 comment. Tiresome being right, innit?

Would have been more if they hadn't crossed off "Sirens".

Not Bernard bashing, just arguing that people say Hooky plays all this JD and NO stuff and they complain about it, saying it's tiresome, relying on back catalogue, etc... He does, but he does it as "The Light" or "U/P gigs" - simply trying to point that out.

As I said before, I'm not bothered if any of them want to play JD/NO, it's theirs afterall.

BL played EIGHT BL songs that night, not five. Eight.

When a band is touring to support a new record, they will generally do 7 to 8 songs from their new, current album, and then the other 45% percent of the set will consist of material from previous albums.

This is what BL are doing. Except...BL only have one record, and BL is made up of 3/4th's of New Order (yes, PHIL is not as important to NO as Gillian was but he is still an official member) and 2/4th's of Joy Division....so, any songs from previous records would come from those bands.

And I think Bernard is clearly enjoying BL, and was probably gutted about the bad luck with the two canceled US tours. They had high profile gigs for both tours.

5 Jul 2010, 11:41

Also, Freebass only played 8 songs (that's the same new stuff as BL), and only played for an hour... :p

:smoking:

5 Jul 2010, 12:14

Zachery Starkey wrote:

BL played EIGHT BL songs that night, not five. Eight.

You've completely missed the point. Five (non BL songs)out of fifteen is 1/3.

Nick - they were all Freebass songs, played as "Freebass"...

:smoking:

5 Jul 2010, 12:29

Chris Nash wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

BL played EIGHT BL songs that night, not five. Eight.

You've completely missed the point. Five (non BL songs)out of fifteen is 1/3.

Nick - they were all Freebass songs, played as "Freebass"...

Twobass - Andy Rourke wasn't there! :evil4:

:smoking:

5 Jul 2010, 12:33

:spit:

5 Jul 2010, 15:11

Very true Nick.

Ditto :spit:

5 Jul 2010, 16:21

Nick King wrote: Also, Freebass only played 8 songs (that's the same new stuff as BL), and only played for an hour... :p

and they were fucking shit. :nod:

I remember feeling the same through the BL gigs, but at least wondering which of the oldies they were going to play, and getting some relief from the tedium when they did.

Crap argument, Mr Nash, as per always showing bizarre bias. You really need to get a room with Mr H.

5 Jul 2010, 16:40

I think Bernard's heart has been in it. The sales from the album have to be horrible by 80s-90s standards. Has it got much attention anywhere except here? Is Bernard's savings account really in it also? Have to tour to make money, have to play a lot of older songs to try to get ticket buyers. The tour cancellations can't have helped.

How many times have you made fun of older faded rock stars going out on the road with a band of newer replacements playing their 30 year old songs to an audience who only wants to hear 30 year old songs? Maybe bring along the drummer to add some cred or a son of a band member. Kinda sad that is how New Order ended up. And the BL and Freebass albums are barely a notch above a myspace band in distribution. They gotta play the old songs.

5 Jul 2010, 17:38

Saying that Bad Lieutenant won't reach the heights of "prime era" New Order is like saying it gets dark at night. Everyone knows it's not as good nor is it intended to be. I tended to believe him when he said he just wanted to form a band with a few people he got on with and release some tunes. Taken as it's meant, it's an alright album; won't set the world on fire but he never said it would.

Exactly! :bow: Freebass neither Bad Lieutenant are going to satisfy everyone---that's very obvious. I don't think anyone would truly expect their output to be superior than New Order. But if someone likes their music and buys their music, or goes to their gigs or whatnot, then so be it.

(Yes I admit that I was sceptical when Bernard first mentioned to the press about the name Bad Lieutenant a few years ago, but as the Songbook footage came up and more information came out regarding the album, I noticed that he wasn't joking).

Do I think that NCAT is a masterpiece? No. But do I find the album nice and pleasant to listen to? Yes. I don't know any of the members so I can't really say much, but I would like to believe that both Bernard and Hooky have their hearts in whatever they're doing musically---regardless of how 'popular' it may or may not be. I think both are passionate about music in their own ways. (Of course passionate doesn't necessarily translate to 'masterpiece album' but I'd like to think they're living their lives to the fullest).

5 Jul 2010, 21:51

Writing music has and always will be in Barney's DNA. I doubt he'll pack it whilst he can still pick up a guitar and a pen. So long as he keeps going I'll keep listening.