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The Paradise Man wrote:
They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however.
:)
If they'd done that there'd've been a load of speculation (mainly on these forums) about great lost tracks à la Sirens! Best get 'em out eh, at least that way we know they're a puddle of poo!
Michael Monkhouse wrote:
The Paradise Man wrote:
They should have never written/dumped Liar and Chemical however.
:)
If they'd done that there'd've been a load of speculation (mainly on these forums) about great lost tracks à la Sirens! Best get 'em out eh, at least that way we know they're a puddle of poo!
Can you imagine the reaction if those tracks were available via some rare track download?
Maybe there are pre-Hague demos for the whole Republic album that was produced by the band? Now that might be interesing, if they actually existed.
Why do people dislike Chemical so much? The lame lyrics and weak melody? The techno parts that tease that it might be a techno song then the song turns boring? That there are techno parts at all?
glad to see RIAD getting some long overdue respect. I think it is brilliantly composed, and is pretty much like nothing NO did before. A nice change of pace, and good to chill out to. In fact, I view Republic sorta of as after-party album. Everyone Everwhere has really grown on me through the years, and Barney's geetar is excellant in that one. Love the version at that Jazz festival in Montreal or maybe Switzerland.
0_o wrote: Maybe there are pre-Hague demos for the whole Republic album that was produced by the band? Now that might be interesing, if they actually existed.
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Had very similar musings myself once. You know I always got the impression 'Republic' started life as a more classically-NO disco/rock hybrid but as they got increasingly fed up they got Stephen Hague in and he turned it into the non-event it became. You see I remember Hooky saying in '92 the album'd showcase a 'harder' side to the band - and next year telling some guitar mag how he'd feed a bass-line into the computer then play over it 'but in World Hague didn't use his contribution'. Similarly, Steve told 'Select' the first and best songs they did were Regret, EE and Special - surely the closest to the sound we love, certainly the only trax they decided to play live (except the next two singles, but they're obvious choices when you're touring the album). Just my impression mind...
Maybe the band themselves werent sure which direction to take Republic? I remember in an interview Hooky referring to one point in the recording where Bernard felt the stuff was sounding 'too much like New Order' to which Hooky replied 'Of course it sounds like New Order, we are fucking are New Order'. Something like that anyway.
A bit shite,perhaps. Still,'Regret'and Bernard's haircut were both top of the fucking pops during this period.
I listened 2 republic again a few days ago after reading this thread and i must say i really enjoyed listening 2 it again.it def is not crap.
Boatraceface wrote: A bit shite,perhaps. Still,'Regret'and Bernard's haircut were both top of the fucking pops during this period.
,,,,,,,,,Good evening Mr B.......One doths ones cap and spank s ones wippet.........could not agree more dear boy..........more couvousier???????????............
Listened to Republic up loud on glorious vinyl yesterday and I still rate it highly. Maybe Liar is a stinker but compared to some of the toss on WFTSC even that is not so bad. Watched the Montreux DVD after - Everyone Everywhere holds up so well. Seeing Hooky gurning away triumphantly on barely-existent bass lines is still pretty funny though.
A couple of you have mentioned band comments about Republic - can anyone point me towards any interviews online where they discuss their satisfaction or otherwise about the album? Is it just speculation on our part that Hooky in particular was not happy about Hague or is it something he has referred to in detail?
I don't know that I'd say it was crap...but it certainly wasn't what I was expecting as the follow up to Technique...
Avalanche is a masterpiece. Brilliantly captured the dying embers of an era now gone, never to be repeated. Though Gillian encourages us to have "faith".
Joanne Bailey wrote: It makes you wonder what sound bernard was after exactly?
Maybe there wasnt much cohesion at all by then. What baffles me is how much blame seems to laid at Stephen Hagues door for Republic. Unless the band had given up caring, which based on what I remember of said interview is unlikely, I cant imagine them allowing a producer to take them in a direction they didnt like.
'Regret' live from Baywatch beach was another highlight from that period. Great performance with The Hoff keeping a watchful eye in case the band were swept away and needed saving...
Maybe they should have produced it themselves,ok,they might have ended up killing each other but at least the end result would have been a half decent album instead of what most posters seem to agree was bland and over produced with not enough live drums or bass guitar.
Produced by New Order : PCL,Lowlife,Brotherhood.
Produced with the help of outsiders,(e.g.Hague): Republic,Get Ready,WFTSC.
I know which ones I prefer.
Gene wrote: Maybe the band themselves werent sure which direction to take Republic? I remember in an interview Hooky referring to one point in the recording where Bernard felt the stuff was sounding 'too much like New Order' to which Hooky replied 'Of course it sounds like New Order, we are fucking are New Order'. Something like that anyway.
You seem to hit on the problem. Bernard wanted to go a more mainstream pop/rock direction beyond traditional New Order with an outside pop producer, and wanted to see himself as a more traditional frontman/leader, while Hooky wanted to keep more to the 80s New Order tradition of independence and democracy, and continue the same style.
Lots to agree with and disagree with above, so much so that I can't quote individually everything I want to respond to.
I think your response to an album is linked to your personal circumstances when you hear it, and the relationship you've had with the band's music previously.
I had been listening to NO since 1983, so my feelings about their music had been shaped primarily by PCL. I liked the way it seemed that a lot of the songs had been shaped by jamming, and then throwing together the song sections from widely different jams to make a strange hybrid 'song', often in a key in which Bernard couldn't sing easily. Hardly any of the early stuff has a conventional song structure (verse/bridge/chorus/middle 8 etc).
The early songs came out like that because that's how the music was written: people in a room. Later, as Bernard learnt more about conventional songwriting, and by collaborating with experienced producers like Robie and Hague, the music got more conventional. I guess that "True Faith" is the best example of this, but you can hear the direction he was heading in on Technique, too.
Count in also the amount of New Order's money that Factory was spending, and you can see why Bernard would want to make the next NO album something that would be successful by a) reflecting his songwriting skills and b) being polished in sound.
I don't whether there are many pre-Hague demos. I think we heard that they started off with Pascal Gabriel but that didn't work at all. I suspect that he was too much of an engineer and not enough of a producer.
So, to me, Republic sounds like what Bernard wanted to do with Electronic. The old NO style of throwing together jammed sections comes out in "Times Change", but most of the rest is in the new style. It seems that Hooky contributed in the studio, even if his parts didn't end up as originally intended; in an interview he said that he wrote a bass part for "World", but it got turned into the vocal melody.
Being used to the older style, Republic was hard for me to get to like. The beginning and end are great, but the middle is pretty awful and I usually skip about 3 tracks. "Liar", in particular, sounds like something that Simply Red would have dumped for sounding too cheesy.
Oh, and don't blame the K2000! It inspired Steve & Gillian to do "Avalanche". For sure it was better than resurrecting the by-then cliched D50 from Technique.
Great debate.have enjoyed reading everyone's comments.well done gene for starting this thread.for those of you who have mentioned vinyl i love it 2.much prefer it 2 anything else.have spent many happy hours going through racks of vinyl.ah those were the days.downloads just aren't the same.
I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:
i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)
I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.
Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:
i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)
I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.
Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.
And there you have it. Thread closed 
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:
i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)
I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.
Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.
someTIMes I love THIS forUM
PhilBarnes wrote: Lots to agree with and disagree with above, so much so that I can't quote individually everything I want to respond to.
I think your response to an album is linked to your personal circumstances when you hear it, and the relationship you've had with the band's music previously.
I had been listening to NO since 1983, so my feelings about their music had been shaped primarily by PCL. I liked the way it seemed that a lot of the songs had been shaped by jamming, and then throwing together the song sections from widely different jams to make a strange hybrid 'song', often in a key in which Bernard couldn't sing easily. Hardly any of the early stuff has a conventional song structure (verse/bridge/chorus/middle 8 etc).
The early songs came out like that because that's how the music was written: people in a room. Later, as Bernard learnt more about conventional songwriting, and by collaborating with experienced producers like Robie and Hague, the music got more conventional. I guess that "True Faith" is the best example of this, but you can hear the direction he was heading in on Technique, too.
I think that "True Faith" is New Order's finest moment. It is, a one reviewer said, "Their best combination of head and heart." It's a beautiful, meaningful song, and you can fucking dance like hell to it.
Technique is New Order's best album, IMO. Hands down. Brilliant songwriting, lyrics, melodies, playing, production.
As for Republic, I love how everyone blames the records problems on Bernard Sumner, just as they do every problem New Order ever had.
It's not just Sumner's fault, or Hague's fault, or even the bands. The record was recorded at a bad time for everyone involved. Gillian and Hooky were not getting along at all (Hooky apparently was sexist towards her), and by all accounts Bernard and Hague had to put the record together from disparate parts recorded at different times by the band members (which is why it sounds like a Bernard Sumner solo record guest starring New Order). As for the lack of Hooky, Bernard said Hooky was out sunbathing while they were recording and mixing, so take that for what you will. The band were simply not getting a long, its a bad time. Hooky said that if they had actually recorded it together as a band it would have sounded better, more like Technique.
That being sad, I do like Republic. It has a sad, elegiac, end of summer feel to it. I realized this one day back in 2005. It was a gloomy, rainy, end of August day....I put Republic on while I was cleaning the house...perfect. There are some great songs on Republic: Regret, Special, Everyone Everywhere, RIAD, World, I even like Times Change and Young Offender. Spooky is a great song and actually has some great bass work from Hooky on it (though its wayyyy too low in the mix). Sumner's lyrics on the record are really good. So the record is good in ways. I prefer it to Brotherhood (which I think is New Order's worst album next to Movement).
It's a flawed, but interesting record.
Someone pointed out that replacing Gillian with a guitarist may not have been the best idea, and I agree. Phil clearly enjoys playing guitar more than synth, which lead to syntth parts that should have been played live put on backing tracks. If Gillian had been replaced with someone who was more into synths, who knows......
The concept of Hooky playing over the top of some Ibiza house was a good one.
But the only songs that work for me are: World, Spooky, Liar and Young Offender.
I think that "True Faith" is New Order's finest moment. It is, a one reviewer said, "Their best combination of head and heart." It's a beautiful, meaningful song, and you can fucking dance like hell to it.
Technique is New Order's best album, IMO. Hands down. Brilliant songwriting, lyrics, melodies, playing, production.
Agreed Zachary. Technique is the best album and True Faith is on of their best songs. I still prefer 'Elegia' though - OMG! FUCKING BEAUTIFUL!
It also depends what kind of New Order you are into. They have the cool, laid back, pop tunesmith side, a'la Technique & Republic, or the more agressive punky side of their early albums
Cool Order
johnny james wrote:
I also recall NO's performance at the Montreux Jazz Festival in that summer, and thinking that they looked like the coolest band on the planet. It was a strong, mature, tight performance that showcased the album with a sprinkling of classics. Temptation was flawless.
The mix of Temptation is anything but flawless though, all you can hear is drum machine and no Steve! It makes it a bit flat really as the dynamics of Steve coming in are lost on this version.
As I said, flawless.
Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: I would imagine the only people who consider "Republic" their favourite New Order record are:
i) New Order's bank manager(s) ii) New Order's coke dealer(s)
I imagine both have some extremely fond memories of that extremely lucrative period.
Now, can we please all try to get over it: it was 17 fucking years ago and the record still (mostly) sounds like a pile of half-arsed wank.
I disagree, for; (i) I don't have any money; and, (ii) I prefer Vimto.
Republic...
It's "A New Order Release" but I don't think it's purely wank.
I was listening to KROQ while driving out of Los Angeles in April 1993. The DJ teased that he'd be debuting the new New Order single (Regret) shortly. Nearly an hour later, I drove up a hill in Valencia (not the Spanish one) and waited, as the reception was getting a bit weak. That first exposure to Regret was a thrill. "New Order are BACK!", I thought. I had enjoyed Electronic, the Tasty Fish single, and, to a lesser extent, some Revenge tracks. However, Regret was the real deal. I purchased tickets to both California concerts as soon as possible.
Then Republic "dropped". I desperately wanted to love it, but all was not well. Regret's lustre had not faded, but there was nothing else to match it in style or quality.
World is a servicible dance track, but New Order had been responsible for some of the best dance tracks of ALL TIME. It was later improved by the generic Perfecto treatment, but was still below par.
Ruined in a Day is an interesting album track, but shouldn't have been a single. While not the best, it is the single that best represents Republic: It sounds like a beaten-down version of the band.
Spooky could have succeeded on the dancefloor if they had managed to come up with a decent chorus.
Everyone Everywhere is a sappy, plodding mess. I'm baffled as to why they chose this to play live rather than...
Young Offender. This and Regret were the two tracks initially produced by Pascal Gabriel before Hague was called in. It would have made a decent single. While not in league with Regret, or perhaps as catchy as World, I much prefer it to Ruined... and Spooky. Someone else thought so too: There were red "Young Offender" shirts available at the Shoreline Amphitheatre concert.
Liar would have fit right in on the first Electronic album but is well out of place here. It actually has a decent chorus and Barney obviously was inspired by the subject matter lyrically but no, it just doesn't belong.
Chemical could have been a decent b-side instrumental (swapped with Vicious Circle) if they had further explored the sounds and structure. They could have developed Hook's riff and used it on the album but instead he kept it in his pocket until using it for Monaco's second single Sweet Lips. Alas, it's on Republic and it's a turd. The forced lyrics handily send the track to the bottom of many fans list of favourites.
Times Change, along with Liar, reasserts Barney's dominance in the move toward's Electronic's sound. Rapping! All the kids are into it! The bit were everyone takes a few bars to "solo" is nice though. Hooky's bit is especially lovely.
Special shows that there was still life in the band. While the music doesn't get my blood pumping, the songwriting is as strong as anything they've done since. The last verse elevates the song nicely.
Avalanche suggests we should have faith. Or does it? Faith that the next album will be better? Faith in the afterlife of the band (Electronic, The Other Two and Revenge) because New Order, as we know it, is dead? She's just singing the one word so it's certainly open to interpretation. It is my second favourite song on the album, whatever you believe.
Republic worked much better on vinyl for me. The first five tracks worked great and the rest were pretty shit, so I never bothered to turn the record over! Not quite the same stopping the CD in mid-flow!
