When did the Hooky Cash in start?

In relation to the £600 thing, along with everything else in recent years, when the cynical money grabbing began.

So many different points, so many attempts at getting peoples money...

well, by the mans reckoning everyone who visited the Hacienda cost him , new order £10 , so its a bit like a tax rebate thing init.

music for pleasure. music for profit

Someone asked me yesterday how big the Hacienda dancefloor was.

1997 when he bought up rights to everything hacienda(c).

easy to appreciate why everyone else would just want to walk away, with the prospect of tiny royalty cheques from endless dance compilations.

The Teacher wrote: Someone asked me yesterday how big the Hacienda dancefloor was.

136m².

The big question is: When will it stop?

johnny james wrote: The big questions is: When will it stop?

Maybe the next time Hooky drives down the Stockport Road towards leafy Cheshire someone will be lurking with malevolent intent in the shade of a grass knoll? Many people are out for his blood, y'know. There's many around here who still haven't forgiven him for carrying on after Ian's little faux pas when hanging out his y-fronts. And as for "WIM"....I hear the Corby contingent are pretty good with an air rifle.....

I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.

Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.

Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.

Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.

Spot on with that mate, totally agree with you, but I know some people think he should still live in a terraced house in Salford, that he's sold out etc. He's just trying to get a bit of money back, he (and the rest of the band, and THW) lost a lot of money.

it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.

Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.

As for the £6k bass guitar book packages, what happened to all that "we made history, not money" stuff?

Just not cool at all.

Does he really need to be involved with stuff like this?

I'm sure Hooky is more than comfortable financially compared to us lot and deservedly so for being part of the magic.

I cant really accept this de-dum he lost money in the old days stuff...yes cos New Order lived like kings and did whatever they wanted without responsibility!

These latter day money grabbing ego stroking schemes sully the legacy for some of us who still give a shit.

We had the £40 a ticket tour where blantantly not giving a fuck. The one off (and now fully fledged touring band) The Light playing Unknown Pleasures in its entirity. My favourite is selling the Hacienda dancefloor. I can juse see certain people* going down B&Q, getting some siilar material, getting Hooky to sign it, and then flogging it off. Well, something similar happened with The Berlin Wall...

Not that I think this is happening. But I do wonder, if your turn the Hacienda into a block of flat, how do you get the dancefloor to chop off?

I suppose a somewhat tenuous comparison would be Tony Blair. His book comes out at the end of the month. But could you imagine if he started selling off bits of his desk?

Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.

You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...

Jed Stephens wrote:

Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.

Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.

Spot on with that mate, totally agree with you, but I know some people think he should still live in a terraced house in Salford, that he's sold out etc. He's just trying to get a bit of money back, he (and the rest of the band, and THW) lost a lot of money.

it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.

Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?

The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.

After all is said and done it is nice to be able to put out something in limited quantities that will in the future be very sought after. There has got to be a monetary motivation for this but more importantly putting out a very nice item for the fans, albeit well off ones! There is a demand for items like this in the Factory/New Order catalogue - a highly collectible musical phenomenon. I would love a copy but I am struggling with my conscience at the moment...

Hooky is a nostalgic guy and is also very proud of his heritage. Rightly so. :)

FYI: The vinyl cost will be around the £3-4 per unit to manufacture.

Dunno about the rest of the package though, and I'm never likely to even see one since I won't be buying. I've got enough crap as it is.

Gene wrote:

Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.

You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...

Yes I have made an assumption here agreed but I think the price tag and exclusive nature of this book/record does prevent a future alternative release...surely the book company have factored that into any contract to make this thing appealing?

I will stand corrected though and would be very pleased if a cd only release was imminent for us proles to buy...not holding me breath though!

Gene wrote:

Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.

You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...

Given that other artists who've released stuff this way (e.g. George Harrison, Paul Weller, etc) haven't (thus far) released all the songs by other methods, I think it's unlikely that they'll be released on any other format in the future...

Personally, if I had money to throw away, I would buy the book (probably not the super deluxe one with the guitar, but definitely the "cheaper" one)... Unfortunately, I don't (and probably won't ever have), so will have to go without... And the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...

The Teacher wrote:

Jed Stephens wrote:

Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.

Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.

Spot on with that mate, totally agree with you, but I know some people think he should still live in a terraced house in Salford, that he's sold out etc. He's just trying to get a bit of money back, he (and the rest of the band, and THW) lost a lot of money.

it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.

Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?

The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.

Total sales of the run would be £160,000. this then has to pay not just Hooky, but 50% royalties due to the writer, however that was decided amonst the band we're unlikely to ever know, but I'm sure bernard would get a large portion of it, the out of the remaining 50% hooky has to pay his management and any session musicians involved, studio staff, i.e. recording engineers, mix engineers, producer, then mastering, production and marketing and studio time, I'd say the proffit would be about 20,000.

Yes it's more than a lot of people on here earn in a year, but how many can play an instrument like that and write music like that.

johnny james wrote: FYI: The vinyl cost will be around the £3-4 per unit to manufacture.

Quoting a figure like that is like the people who justify stealing (i.e. illegal downloading) on the production cost of the medium, not taking into account any of the above.

£20,000 profit over £160,000??

I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I would wager that it would be a LOT higher than that...

Okay, recording/mastering/etc - can be done cheaply at home.

Management? I doubt whether they'd be involved in a project like this...

Session musicians? Depends what the other three tracks sound like... Certainly, "The Happy One" is an instrumental...

Writing royalties: I'm presuming that if such an agreement with writing royalties survives for a particular song, then he would choose those that are in favour of him and not the rest of the band? Otherwise...

Nick King wrote: £20,000 profit over £160,000??

I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I would wager that it would be a LOT higher than that...

Okay, recording/mastering/etc - can be done cheaply at home.

Management? I doubt whether they'd be involved in a project like this...

Session musicians? Depends what the other three tracks sound like... Certainly, "The Happy One" is an instrumental...

Writing royalties: I'm presuming that if such an agreement with writing royalties survives for a particular song, then he would choose those that are in favour of him and not the rest of the band? Otherwise...

Agreed. Bet the conversation involved Hooky saying 'if I can clear £100k..... then fuck 'em, who cares'.

Silly sod might have made more if he'd released his album on I tunes a couple of years earlier and not made such a song and dance about it. He might even have some respect left too, if the album was actually any good.

Royalties from record sales is typically 50% writer, 50% performer, the writer in this case being the band, how they split that is decided amonsgt themselves.

The performer will then have to pay for everything else involved, yes these days it's possible for someone to knock something of a reasonable standard out at home, but the vast majority of proffesional releases are done through a proper studio and mastering studio, these are very expensive, and I should think that at least 10 people were involved, all on a decent hourly rate.

If you think a performer of a song gets 50% of the gross sale then you are completely and utterly wrong.

I'm not saying that I would buy the product, even if I could afford it, or that I agree with him releasing covers of earlier NO songs, I'd rather hear new material. I'm just pointing out that the proffit in music for the performer is vastly less than people realise, which is why some performers are getting very pissed off at people stealnig their work and also why the music industry is dying.

Nick King wrote: the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...

There is also the so far unmentioned possibility that the tracks on this thing may be a bag of shit. Side projects have never been quite as good as the real thing so Im not convinced we're missing out on all that much.

Someone will 'torrent' it at some point like they always do anyway.

Gene wrote:

Nick King wrote: the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...

Someone will 'torrent' it at some point like they always do anyway.

Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?

The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.

My statement about unit prices was really in answer to this.

The pricing of this set of editions is in no way related to the cost to produce them, it is based purely on making the biggest return on the least copies. Based on the bet that enough 'fans' will be willing to pay the sums requested because of the deliberately limited nature of the product and the exclusivity of what you're getting.

Thanks to the fact that you can't make a decent return selling music to a mass-market anymore (because no one pays for music anymore) this is the future method of getting a return. A few people paying vastly over the odds for a limited edition.

Yes, I suppose it could be called a rip-off but then even, say, Radiohead's £50 Discbox was overpriced with regard to cost to manufacture. It's all about the calculated return if you sell all copies of whatever run you do.

'The Singles' compilation sounds just fine to me.

Of course one could say that this is another business model---selling smaller quantities of higher priced things for a profit, instead of selling lower priced things and expecting to make a profit by selling a lot of it. (I'm talking about the £600 set by the way).

However, if the prices are too set too high, or if many people don't find the product appealing, then you might not get as high as a profit than what you expected.

I don't really know anyone who could afford to spend £600 on that vinyl/book set today, but who knows? Maybe there's someone out there.

That said, people can sell and buy whatever they want IMO.

I still want to know how the hacienda dancefloor was retrieved.

The Teacher wrote: I still want to know how the hacienda dancefloor was retrieved.

I don't know fuck all about building, Liam, but I guess they'll have dug it up before they started re-building on the site - just as they'll have removed the bar, the toilets, the balcony etc etc.

Whether it's 'ethically correct' to start selling this stuff off piece by piece is another question entirely.

If it was priced at 12 quid then everyone on here would say it was good value and rush out and buy one. Hooky would then sell several hundred (at least) and make a few quid out of it.

Why is that alright but selling a small handful for 600 notes is not?

In terms of how much he pockets (and if you're concerned about that you shouldnt be buying music anyway) wouldnt it be about the same?

Who f'cking cares! Let him sell stuff at the price he wants. You can't own everything, and anything you do own will go to your careless nephew when you die anyways... can't bring it with you. If its priced too high, no one will buy...

EdelBrock wrote: Who f'cking cares! Let him sell stuff at the price he wants. You can't own everything, and anything you do own will go to your careless nephew when you die anyways... can't bring it with you. If its priced too high, no one will buy...

The Teacher wrote: I still want to know how the hacienda dancefloor was retrieved.

it was cut into pieces, put on a pallet ,then into a van . easy. and sold in strips, with the rest of the fixtures at an auction, the proceeds of which went to kids charities.

due to a classic factory cock up, the wood ben kelly specc'd for the dancefloor wasn't really meant to be danced on , and had to be replaced a couple of times, so there's more out there than you might think.

if you don't like it, don't buy it! no one is making you buy anything.

totally agree Jack - who gives a sh1t if Hooky wants to make some cash? either give him some cash or don't.

i never knew joy division/new order fans to be the judgmental types. pretty lame. is this what NOOL has come to?

i bet you complained when new order didn't play your mandated encores as well.

"i am not getting my money's worth!!! where is the encore!" the Hooky Cash-In believers probably b1tched about back then.

sad.

[orange]State of Love and Trust [/orange] wrote: if you don't like it, don't buy it! no one is making you buy anything.

True mate, no one made me buy tons of New Order/Joy Division/Monaco/Revenge/Freebass stuff either but at least I could afford em!

Tarbox23 wrote: never knew joy division/new order fans to be the judgmental types. pretty lame. is this what NOOL has come to?

Its not being judgemental or sad to have an opinion on this.

I am no Hooky hater either, far from it.

The Robert Forster set from foruli is very similar (smaller admittedly) and costs only £75 and is presumably priced to make a nice profit.

The way to do it.

Hookys starts at £262. Any fan ok with that needs to have a word with themselves.

Aiming exclusive releases, including tasty (?) reworkings of NO classics, at the wealthy is not on and about as far from "punk" as you can get.

What once was anarchistic, is now sold in form of overpriced lifestyle-gadgets for 40somethings stuck in the 80ies. Hooky now is the Hacienda, Factory and Joy Divison in one person. He's rewriting history (Hooky the acid house master anyone?), and tries to sell his recent output with the historic relevance and cultural impact of the original Factory. It's true, nobody needs to buy anything, but we as fans have all the right in the world to have an opinion on all this. Time to move on.

Well, if the only way I'm going to be able to listen to 4 exclusive tracks is to find a torrent site and download them, then...

End result - Hooky doesn't get any money from me... Now, if they were available on a cheaper release than £262...

you can listen to "The Vikings" here:

http://foruli.co.uk/music

as it is not allowed to be "judgemental" on this forum, I keep my mouth shut.

I believe in freedom of speech/expression; as I've said before I also believe in the freedom to sell or buy whatever (as long as it's not illegal).

I can't afford it and I'm not a fan of vinyl, but if anyone on this planet that can afford it and wants it buys it---I don't care---it's their business.

My only comment is put out as many packages as you like, just make the MUSIC affordable and available to the fans. I really only want the music on the ten inch. Isn't there a way to make that available eventually?

Factor wrote: My only comment is put out as many packages as you like, just make the MUSIC affordable and available to the fans. I really only want the music on the ten inch. Isn't there a way to make that available eventually?

A voice of reason, nice one.

Give us mugs who have always bought stuff the option to buy the new music.

This probably will be up as a "torrent" somewhere sooner or later....can you blame us for grabbing it?

joe davola wrote: you can listen to "The Vikings" here:

http://foruli.co.uk/music

as it is not allowed to be "judgemental" on this forum, I keep my mouth shut.

You are allowed to be judgemental, you will just offend the more naive sections of the board when you refuse to give excessive praise everytime Hooky farts.

The fact is, and we've known it for years, with all the shit re issues, the remasters which were defective, the re issued remasters which did fuck all, the shambles which was Retro, the selling of the Hacienda dance floor to name but a few, that New Order, and one member in particular have been ripping off and trying to exploit the fans for years. Scraping the barrel methinks. And how appropriate that after the disaster which was twobass that Hooky has been reduced to taking a band which was originally supposed to be a "one off" then a "special one off performance" into what is now a fully fledged world touring outfit playing in front of a hundred people or so in crap holes around the world.

There's no doubting that some of the recent projects Hooky's got involved in have done his credibility no favours whatsoever. More fool the people who keep buying the tat, attending the shows, qeueing up to get the books signed I say. However, credibility don't pay the rent. And anyone who thinks that being one quarter of a moderately succesful band on an indie label in the 80's (who didn't like touring and who had to prop up a nightclub) would make you rich is mistaken.

At the end of the day Hooky's got to turn a coin like the rest of us and if some people don't like the way he's doing it then just don't get involved in it. It's harming nobody and bringing enjoyment to some folk so fair fucks to the man. And I actually liked the Hacienda book. The rest of the Hacienda circus/horse- flogging you can keep though.

Who else was going to do the reissues? Barney? Honestly, someone is always going to find fault with these things. The music is still great and Hooky's intentions always seem good.

Is he supposed to turn down offers to do Unknown Pleasures because there is interest? I live in the states and would LOVE to have seen that. Now I possibly get to. How is that being "reduced" to anything? The gigs all seem quality. People are going or there would be no demand. What's exactly wrong with that?

I loved the book. I hope he made a shitload of money off it and it gives him the opportunity to write a JD book and eventually a NO book. I hope the Unknown Pleasures tour goes all over the world so everyone can share in the experience. I have no problem paying for the music, as I bought every Freebass track, just give us options, because if you don't then all those songs are going to be downloaded for free, as Tock said..

In the end, Hooky is out there doing his thing. Its all our choice. I don't see anyone else doing it.The man is making a living, just like you, just like me. It's up to us as fans to determine how much we want to buy tickets and records and books for.

politics aside, I enjoyed NO/JD better when there was some mystery involved.

joe davola wrote: you can listen to "The Vikings" here:

http://foruli.co.uk/music

as it is not allowed to be "judgemental" on this forum, I keep my mouth shut.

Oh dear, it's absolute gash. (in a non-judgemental kind of way, of course).

Don't moan about it, just don't buy it. Simples

Personally i have no problem with Hooky doing something with the Hacienda name or touring 'Unknown Pleasures'. It's part of his legacy and due to mismanagement and naivety in the past he's made very little from it. He was the only one that did something for Ian's anniversary, the hungry punters lapped it up so why can't he supply the demand? I'd go see him if i could and although over priced, the special editions seem like quality product. If people wanna pay that much then let them. If not he'll be selling them on Ebay and who wouldn't bid on them for the right price?! He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, so steve cleaning up the Plan K sound for the mac fest counts for nothing then,

i worked hard for nothing,,

Damian wrote: Personally i have no problem with Hooky doing something with the Hacienda name or touring 'Unknown Pleasures'. It's part of his legacy and due to mismanagement and naivety in the past he's made very little from it. He was the only one that did something for Ian's anniversary, the hungry punters lapped it up so why can't he supply the demand? I'd go see him if i could and although over priced, the special editions seem like quality product. If people wanna pay that much then let them. If not he'll be selling them on Ebay and who wouldn't bid on them for the right price?! He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

The other band members have been busy recording and touring new music.

Personally, I love Peter Hook, he can do whatever he wants. It was kind of sad to see him drop Freebass so quickly, but I'd rather go see Bad Lieutenant (because I love their album and they play new and old stuff) than see Hooky do UP. That being said, I'd still see Hooky do UP, because he's Hooky.

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Damian wrote: Personally i have no problem with Hooky doing something with the Hacienda name or touring 'Unknown Pleasures'. It's part of his legacy and due to mismanagement and naivety in the past he's made very little from it. He was the only one that did something for Ian's anniversary, the hungry punters lapped it up so why can't he supply the demand? I'd go see him if i could and although over priced, the special editions seem like quality product. If people wanna pay that much then let them. If not he'll be selling them on Ebay and who wouldn't bid on them for the right price?! He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

The other band members have been busy recording and touring new music.

Personally, I love Peter Hook, he can do whatever he wants. It was kind of sad to see him drop Freebass so quickly, but I'd rather go see Bad Lieutenant (because I love their album and they play new and old stuff) than see Hooky do UP. That being said, I'd still see Hooky do UP, because he's Hooky.

Have i missed something?Is FREEBASS no more?Seriously.

Rocket Mick wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Damian wrote: Personally i have no problem with Hooky doing something with the Hacienda name or touring 'Unknown Pleasures'. It's part of his legacy and due to mismanagement and naivety in the past he's made very little from it. He was the only one that did something for Ian's anniversary, the hungry punters lapped it up so why can't he supply the demand? I'd go see him if i could and although over priced, the special editions seem like quality product. If people wanna pay that much then let them. If not he'll be selling them on Ebay and who wouldn't bid on them for the right price?! He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

The other band members have been busy recording and touring new music.

Personally, I love Peter Hook, he can do whatever he wants. It was kind of sad to see him drop Freebass so quickly, but I'd rather go see Bad Lieutenant (because I love their album and they play new and old stuff) than see Hooky do UP. That being said, I'd still see Hooky do UP, because he's Hooky.

Have i missed something?Is FREEBASS no more?Seriously.

I'm sure Freebass is still going, but you'd think that since their record just came out, Hooky's be touring with them, not doing the UP tour.

To be fair, Hooky is sentimental, and money is needed to pay the bills. I prefer Bad Lieutenant to the UP tour or FB, but I think Peter Hook is a great guy (hey, he always took the time out to reply to my emails on Myspace) so he can do what he wants.

I'm moving to NYC in a week. If I have the money for UP in December, I'll go.

Rocket Mick wrote:

Zachery Starkey wrote:

Damian wrote: Personally i have no problem with Hooky doing something with the Hacienda name or touring 'Unknown Pleasures'. It's part of his legacy and due to mismanagement and naivety in the past he's made very little from it. He was the only one that did something for Ian's anniversary, the hungry punters lapped it up so why can't he supply the demand? I'd go see him if i could and although over priced, the special editions seem like quality product. If people wanna pay that much then let them. If not he'll be selling them on Ebay and who wouldn't bid on them for the right price?! He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

The other band members have been busy recording and touring new music.

Personally, I love Peter Hook, he can do whatever he wants. It was kind of sad to see him drop Freebass so quickly, but I'd rather go see Bad Lieutenant (because I love their album and they play new and old stuff) than see Hooky do UP. That being said, I'd still see Hooky do UP, because he's Hooky.

Have i missed something?Is FREEBASS no more?Seriously.

I'm sure Freebass is still going, but you'd think that since their record just came out, Hooky's be touring with them, not doing the UP tour.

To be fair, Hooky is sentimental, and money is needed to pay the bills. I prefer Bad Lieutenant to the UP tour or FB, but I think Peter Hook is a great guy (hey, he always took the time out to reply to my emails on Myspace) so he can do what he wants.

I'm moving to NYC in a week. If I have the money for UP in December, I'll go.

The Teacher wrote: playing in front of a hundred people or so in crap holes around the world.

Have you even seen where we are playing you absolute tool. 20,000 people in Portugal last week proves you wrong, as does selling thousands of tickets in Australia.

Damian wrote: He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

I think that the other members care about their past, but just in different ways than Hooky. In interviews, Steve and Barney seem pretty nice to share memories about JD and whatnot. I don't think you could just say that they don't care about it. Hooky's just honouring the past in a different way than Steve or Barney might, IMO.

[orange]State of Love and Trust [/orange] wrote:

The Teacher wrote: playing in front of a hundred people or so in crap holes around the world.

Have you even seen where we are playing you absolute tool. 20,000 people in Portugal last week proves you wrong, as does selling thousands of tickets in Australia.

Anyway, clubs are more fun. Nothing wrong about playing in front of a few hundred people. Those are the best shows to see or play in.

[orange]State of Love and Trust [/orange] wrote:

The Teacher wrote: playing in front of a hundred people or so in crap holes around the world.

Have you even seen where we are playing you absolute tool. 20,000 people in Portugal last week proves you wrong, as does selling thousands of tickets in Australia.

Yeah, all those people bought tickets to see what is nothing more thana glorifed tribute band at festival. Wise up.

The Teacher wrote:

[orange]State of Love and Trust [/orange] wrote:

The Teacher wrote: playing in front of a hundred people or so in crap holes around the world.

Have you even seen where we are playing you absolute tool. 20,000 people in Portugal last week proves you wrong, as does selling thousands of tickets in Australia.

Yeah, all those people bought tickets to see what is nothing more thana glorifed tribute band at festival. Wise up.

Reckon Jack knows more than anyone so telling him to wise up is just farcical. My opinion is that they should all do what the hell they want, it's their stuff and their life. However, if they realy want to make some cash (not that they need it) they would do 2 last tours - one as New Order and one playing the songs of Joy Division - now that I would gladly pay a lot for!

Surface wrote: and one as Joy Division -

Hows that going to work then?

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote:

Surface wrote: and one as Joy Division -

Hows that going to work then?

I thought that, too. Joy Division Karaoke?

Gene wrote:

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote:

Surface wrote: and one as Joy Division -

Hows that going to work then?

I thought that, too. Joy Division Karaoke?

Now edited :-) i knew what I meant

79 order wrote: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, so steve cleaning up the Plan K sound for the mac fest counts for nothing then,

i worked hard for nothing,,

Sorry, i worded that wrong, it's just that he was more vocal and in the media talking about it, while the others kept a lower profile. That's Hooky i suppose!

leather_girl wrote:

Damian wrote: He's always had an interest in the band's live stuff and history...the others didn't seem to bother, so it's good to see him keeping an interest in the past, for financial gain or otherwise.

I think that the other members care about their past, but just in different ways than Hooky. In interviews, Steve and Barney seem pretty nice to share memories about JD and whatnot. I don't think you could just say that they don't care about it. Hooky's just honouring the past in a different way than Steve or Barney might, IMO.

Sorry, strong words from me...i was off on one. It was a sweeping statement and you're right.

Rocket Mick wrote: Have i missed something?Is FREEBASS no more?Seriously.

Fret not, Mick, they're playing Japan tomorrow! :p

Gene wrote:

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote:

Surface wrote: and one as Joy Division -

Hows that going to work then?

I thought that, too. Joy Division Karaoke?

Fucking hell, dont go giving them ideas!

After Unknown Pleasures havve been flogged to death, then comes Closer, and then

JOY DIVISION BANDIOKE featuring Peter Hook, his son and some mates.

Pay £100 for the chance to sing a Joy Division Classic with a member of the band!

Nick King wrote:

Rocket Mick wrote: Have i missed something?Is FREEBASS no more?Seriously.

Fret not, Mick, they're playing Japan tomorrow! :p

....turning Japanese....i really think so

New Order getting back for one last tour? This sounds like an Eagles style "Hell Freezes Over" type tour, Hooky and BS having joined the list of legendary Manchester feuding ex-bandmates alongside Moz/Marr and Brown/Squire makes such a tour seem unlikely. If the UP tour (as it now is)came to my part of the world I would certainly go along.

The Teacher wrote:

Pay £100 for the chance to sing a Joy Division Classic with a member of the band!

I bagsy 'No Love Lost'!

liam you are quite possibly the most bitter person i have ever come across... its pathetic.

The Teacher wrote: a glorifed tribute band

Also would you mind telling me how what we are doing is in any way different to the following successful and well received tours:

Bad Lieutenant playing half their set with NO/JD/Electronic

Roger Waters performing Dark Side of The Moon

John Garcia plays Kyuss

The current version of Thin Lizzy

Billy Corgan's current "Smashing Pumpkins"

your beloved Morrissey playing Smiths songs

Ian Brown playing Stone Roses songs

Shaun Ryder playing Happy Mondays and Black Grape

The current lineup of Guns n' Roses playing the classic GNR songs

Slash playing GNR songs on his current tour

Perry Farrell playing Jane's Addiction songs with Satellite Party

Julian Casablancas playing Strokes songs

Brian Wilson doing Beach Boys songs

Ozzy Osbourne doing Black Sabbath

Kele Okereke doing Bloc Party songs

I could go on.

everybody does tours like this, get over yourself and stop whining just for the sake of it. maybe you should come to one of them because the ironic thing is you would probably enjoy it.

You obviously missed countless threads and posts I made back in 2006 when I openly said Morrissey shouldnt be playing Smiths songs. And the same posts I made slagging off BL for playing New Order songs. And Roger Waters is a disgrace for touring Dark Side of the Moon and now The Wall. Shameless. Billy Corgan playing as The Smashing Pumpkins is a joke, which is why I refused to go. And I could go on and on and on and on.

But I should point out, there's a BIG difference between Ian Brown playing a few Stone Roses songs (does he still do that?) or Morrissey doing some Smiths etc and going out and touring one album from thirty years on your own.

And I dont think I would enjoy it, that Monaco gig still ranks as the worst thing I've ever seen. The only butchery I need in my life wears a white coat and provides an excellent standard of meat.

EDIT: Having just looked at that list again, looks like the festival from hell.

Regarding that list, how many of them produced things such as a four track EP of reject tracks and remixes, a book and then sold it for £600? I'm guessing none (although I'll put nothing past Roger Waters).

Also, say if The Ramones or Blondie (or whoever) bought the floor of CBGBs when it closed down and then flogged it off. How embarrasing would that be?

Or if Tina Weymouth, Chris Stein or somebody started doing Talking Heads or Blondie tours? It'd be an absolute joke.

And another point:

Most world leaders can fit their memoirs into one volume, why does Hooky need more than one?

The Teacher wrote: And another point: Most world leaders can fit their memoirs into one volume, why does Hooky need more than one?

Because most world leaders are cunts.

Gene wrote:

The Teacher wrote: And another point: Most world leaders can fit their memoirs into one volume, why does Hooky need more than one?

Because most world leaders are cunts.

Because that makes perfect sense.

Because comparing a musician to a world leader makes perfect sense? This isn't Bono.

true Jack, everyone else is doing it, but New Order once made a difference, a difference to all the other crap around, their attitude and the Factory way of doing things made them special.

Bernard and Steve may play old New Order and Joy Division songs and I am not that convinved about that, but at least they're not pretending to still be Factory, the Hacienda or even the one and only legacy of Joy Division. As I pointed out earlier, Hooky packages his recent output with the old Factory aesthetic but is acting the complete opposite to it. Factory was giving something special to the kids as mass products, Hooky all turns it into crap rock star aristocracy.

As if the flames needed fanning .....

and here's the redesigned UP shirt, well done Pete - get a shit print and change the colour.

joe davola wrote: true Jack, everyone else is doing it, but New Order once made a difference, a difference to all the other crap around, their attitude and the Factory way of doing things made them special.

Bernard and Steve may play old New Order and Joy Division songs and I am not that convinved about that, but at least they're not pretending to still be Factory, the Hacienda or even the one and only legacy of Joy Division. As I pointed out earlier, Hooky packages his recent output with the old Factory aesthetic but is acting the complete opposite to it. Factory was giving something special to the kids as mass products, Hooky all turns it into crap rock star aristocracy.

WRONG!

Everyone else isnt doing it. As I said, there's a huge difference between playing a few songs by the band you used to be in and then touring a full album.

And no one else is plundering to barrel scraping depths that Hooky is. Nobody. Limited edition t shirts, Hacienda dance floor, loads of books etc

James Thomas wrote:

As if the flames needed fanning .....

More damning evidence

The Teacher wrote:

joe davola wrote: true Jack, everyone else is doing it, but New Order once made a difference, a difference to all the other crap around, their attitude and the Factory way of doing things made them special.

Bernard and Steve may play old New Order and Joy Division songs and I am not that convinved about that, but at least they're not pretending to still be Factory, the Hacienda or even the one and only legacy of Joy Division. As I pointed out earlier, Hooky packages his recent output with the old Factory aesthetic but is acting the complete opposite to it. Factory was giving something special to the kids as mass products, Hooky all turns it into crap rock star aristocracy.

WRONG!

Everyone else isnt doing it. As I said, there's a huge difference between playing a few songs by the band you used to be in and then touring a full album.

And no one else is plundering to barrel scraping depths that Hooky is. Nobody. Limited edition t shirts, Hacienda dance floor, loads of books etc

I meant playing old songs with new bands. But you're right, the recent UP tour is like Johnny Marr playing The Queen is Dead with the Gene-singer or Alan Wilder doing Music For The Masses and singing "Strangelove". Gruesome.

With the massive decline in record sales the "Music Biz" people obviously have come up with other ways of raising revenue,it aint always pretty and if you don't want to participate you don't have to.

The Teacher wrote:

joe davola wrote: true Jack, everyone else is doing it, but New Order once made a difference, a difference to all the other crap around, their attitude and the Factory way of doing things made them special.

Bernard and Steve may play old New Order and Joy Division songs and I am not that convinved about that, but at least they're not pretending to still be Factory, the Hacienda or even the one and only legacy of Joy Division. As I pointed out earlier, Hooky packages his recent output with the old Factory aesthetic but is acting the complete opposite to it. Factory was giving something special to the kids as mass products, Hooky all turns it into crap rock star aristocracy.

WRONG!

Everyone else isnt doing it. As I said, there's a huge difference between playing a few songs by the band you used to be in and then touring a full album.

And no one else is plundering to barrel scraping depths that Hooky is. Nobody. Limited edition t shirts, Hacienda dance floor, loads of books etc

for fucks sake -if you like someone who creates something for you that you truly love, then what the fuck does it matter what they do and how they make their money. I first saw JD supporting Buzzcocks twice in one week and thought they were wank. I then discovered New Order and their music has brough so many happy times. Even as BL, when they play temptation I still get a tingle up my spine and a tear in my eye. This would be the same if Peter Hook did the track. What the fuck has it got to do with any of us how they choose to make their money.

Virtualy every Sunday i go for a walk past Hookys house (with my kids)and think,the bloke in there was part of the soudtrack to my life. Do I ever think about Hac dancefloor - do I fuck.

Lets get real, it's the music they created that counts and fuck all else! - Rant Over

Jack,

Does Pops get royalties from this?

I can answer that, no none whatsoever. Nor Saville nor any other member of the band

Ditto this which is pretty snide really. Makes you wonder really.

http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/2010/07/20/carhartt-x-eric-elms-fallwinter-2010-t-shirt-collection/carhartt-eric-elms-fw2010-3/

The Teacher wrote: Jack,

Does Pops get royalties from this?

Does it fucking matter?

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote: I can answer that, no none whatsoever. Nor Saville nor any other member of the band

Ditto this which is pretty snide really. Makes you wonder really.

http://www.highsnobiety.com/news/2010/07/20/carhartt-x-eric-elms-fallwinter-2010-t-shirt-collection/carhartt-eric-elms-fw2010-3/

Well, I guess if you pilfer the image from an astronomy book in the first place then perhaps not.

However the value to the image was added by Saville, and its usage by the band.

It all seems very one sided, the band are perceived as the villains for employing their heritage in whatever way they choose, however other brands such as the massively successful Carharrt can appropriate the image without permission or approval and dont seem to generate the same level of opprobium that the actual band members do.

Funny that.

One wonders what the lawyers* said?

I wonder if Hooky was going to use the same lawyers who he threatened the good people at FUC51 after claiming that the typeface they used was owned by him and his cronies?

*see the comments on the UP t shirt

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote: However the value to the image was added by Saville, and its usage by the band.

It all seems very one sided, the band are perceived as the villains for employing their heritage in whatever way they choose, however other brands such as the massively successful Carharrt can appropriate the image without permission or approval and dont seem to generate the same level of opprobium that the actual band members do.

Funny that.

I dont think the people at Carharrt are exploiting the fans in the same way as your boss is. That might be the difference.

Of course they are, thats very blinkered.

They've appropriated the use of an iconic image for their own marketing and publicity purposes, and also to sell a carharrt up image tshirt to fans of the bands.

As for what we're doing, you do have a choice, or maybe you expect to get everything for nothing, like the bootlegs and downloads that appear here on a regular basis.

How are they exploiting the fans? By selling a reasonably creative and mildly funny t shirt for a few dollars? Hardly on the same level as some reject tracks, a remix or two, and a book for £600!

Its funny how you jump from discussions of the copyright for the UP sleeve and illegal downloading to discussions of the collectors editions of the book, like that was your ace card

It should be pretty obvious that the production costs on the special editions are high and it is intended for people who have the income and inclination to want to purchase one of the limited edition sets. If nobody wants them they wont sell.

I cannot enter into the facts surrounding the special editions but its very safe to say that despite your kneejerk and authoritarian reactions, you have no idea of these.

However, you are entitled to an opinion, however blinkered, biased and ill informed it might be.

Oh and judging by your signature, it'd be you supplying the wood. Cross and main beam eh?

ooooohhh.....

Officialdom enters the argument.

Is it alright for me to say that I'd love Hooky to start to actually make good no-nonsense music again, rather than than the old pap he's been churning out lately.

Perhaps he could use the 1x£600 he gets from latest 'project' to employ a decent songwriter to knock up a good song. That's what used to happen in the days when it was all about the music.

All this stuff, and participation in online arguments is making Mr Hook and his entourage look like a right tit. Go on, blow us away with one good song. Go onnnnnnn..........

Burt Burterson wrote: Officialdom enters the argument.

....Perhaps he could use the 1x£600 he gets from latest 'project'

All this stuff, and participation in online arguments is making Mr Hook and his entourage look like a right tit.....

1. Officialdom? Give me a break.

2. 1 x £600 - so all the fee goes straight to hooky, yeah it comes with five magic beans as well.

3. We have a right to defend Peter against what it pretty much misjudged vitriole from people who call themselves fans. You outside the circle are entitled to your viewpoints, us inside the circle are entitled to our knowledge.

Maybe we should just have a free for all, where material and goods are given away to the fans for nothing cos after all they deserve it. In fact, we'll pay the postage.

I find it funny - u2 get sponsored by blackberry, sign to aeg, charge 60 to 80 quid a ticket and nobody pipes up. We do some smaller and festival gigs, with some ancillary limited edition merch for the people who want it and we're the devil, despite the heritage and culture which was built up by Hooky and the bands generosity, largesse and investment in culture.

Still you cant please all of the people all of the time.

I've made my points, if you think us trying to engage with your opinions makes Hooky and his entourage "a right tit" then sadly mate, its you thats bereft of any rational or reasonable viewpoint.

Why the fuck would we want to talk about U2?

And anyway, you are totally missing the point:

1. Re issue after re issue were an insult to the New Order fans, as were the live performance put on by the band which, for the most part were phoned in, charging the not inconsiderable £35 a time, if not more.

2. Hooky in particular has been putting his name on anything that will sell recently.

3. The digital re masters were a joke, and when a certain somebody apparently made public his desire to sort them out, well, it wasnt done, was it

4. Look at some of the stuff released, books, pieces of a floor for fucks sake, shambolic talking tours, its stinks of cashing in, and of exploiting the fans.

5. Will anything be released that isnt limited edition? A limited edition t shirt? Just a different colour. Bit of a piss take really. And how much more limited edition products will there be? Seems like one a week at the moment.

These are not ill informed opinions, these are statements of fact.

oh you're still here, forgot about you in the two hours you didnt post.

With addendums

1. Re issue after re issue were an insult to the New Order fans, as were the live performance put on by the band which, for the most part were phoned in, charging the not inconsiderable £35 a time, if not more.

And how is that Hooky's fault?

2. Hooky in particular has been putting his name on anything that will sell recently.

Not true but you can believe what you will.

3. The digital re masters were a joke, and when a certain somebody apparently made public his desire to sort them out, well, it wasnt done, was it

And how is that Hooky's fault? He was the one that spoke up about it and endeavoured to do something about it. Everyone else remained silent.

4. Look at some of the stuff released, books, pieces of a floor for fucks sake, shambolic talking tours, its stinks of cashing in, and of exploiting the fans.

You do have a choice and I think that you're being disingenous in your choice of examples. The book got four / five star reviews across the board and was available throughout from Amazon for less than a tenner. The talking tour was reviewed well and as for the memorabilia aspects nobodys putting a gun to your head and making you buy (or want) them.

5. Will anything be released that isnt limited edition? A limited edition t shirt? Just a different colour. Bit of a piss take really. And how much more limited edition products will there be? Seems like one a week at the moment.

Its a different design, done by Saville and yes get this, authorised by all the surviving members of Joy Division. Better than buying some Carhartt rip off. Limited edition means its special and not mass market.

Anyway you can make your choices. It's a free world after all.

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote:

Burt Burterson wrote: Officialdom enters the argument.

....Perhaps he could use the 1x£600 he gets from latest 'project'

All this stuff, and participation in online arguments is making Mr Hook and his entourage look like a right tit.....

1. Officialdom? Give me a break.

Oh right, so you are not paid in any way by Mr Hook then? Lemme guess you are an undying fan just like me, who's bought product, rolled up to so-called 'DJ dates', gigs etc etc, but not felt disappointed, if not left slightly short-changed.

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote:

2. 1 x £600 - so all the fee goes straight to hooky, yeah it comes with five magic beans as well.

Simple business model. Release good stuff, at a reasonable price, people buy in quantity. KER-CHING! If you know it's rubbish, then whack a ridiculous price tag on it and a few die-hard collectors will buy. Big shame, and hardly very 'Factory' is it?

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote:

3. We have a right to defend Peter against what it pretty much outright slander from so-called fans. You outside the circle are entitled to your viewpoints, us inside the circle are entitled to our knowledge.

Maybe we should just have a free for all, where material and goods are given away to the fans for nothing cos after all they deserve it. In fact, we'll pay the postage.

I find it funny - u2 get sponsored by blackberry, sign to aeg, charge 60 to 80 quid a ticket and nobody pipes up. We do some smaller and festival gigs, with some ancillary limited edition merch for the people who want it and we're the devil, despite the heritage and culture which was built up by Hooky and the bands generosity, largesse and investment in culture.

Still you cant please all of the people all of the time.

I've made my points, if you think us trying to engage with your opinions makes Hooky and his entourage "a right tit" then sadly mate, its you thats bereft of any rational or reasonable viewpoint.

Back to the business model. You mention U2. They have their own website, which you can freely go to. They aren't just the Edge on their own, cutting a sadly avaricious figure cashing in on former glories. There are other members of Joy Division still alive, making music at a reasonable price, and not running around touring on the basis that they are one quarter of Joy Division and therefore have the right to tour and release ridiculously expensive merchandise packages.

On a personal note... I wonder when the 'Still Tour' will happen, and perhaps 'Les Baines Douches' on tour, right down to the original coughs.

You lot are a disgrace.

Where's that FUC51 blog when you need them?

Oh wait it seems FUC51 thinks their job is over.

FAC 51 The Hacienda wrote: Maybe we should just have a free for all, where material and goods are given away to the fans for nothing cos after all they deserve it. In fact, we'll pay the postage.

Will you post first class?

Seriously can the book 10" be released separately at a normal price?

You got my moolah then....gladly....dont want no freebies.

I think this is appropriate now...

Nick King wrote: I think this is appropriate now...

but is it Hooky branded popcorn, officially sanctioned by all other surviving members of Joy Division?

it better f____ taste nice, if it is.

What is your problem, you seem very bitter about something that you have a choice in - too buy or not too buy? You also seem like you are talking on behalf of all fans and you clearly are not! My views below

Why the fuck would we want to talk about U2?

And anyway, you are totally missing the point:

1. Re issue after re issue were an insult to the New Order fans, as were the live performance put on by the band which, for the most part were phoned in, charging the not inconsiderable £35 a time, if not more.

I am a fan and was not insulted by any of the re issues

2. Hooky in particular has been putting his name on anything that will sell recently.

His choice and my choice not to buy anything. I did buy the book though and it's great

3. The digital re masters were a joke, and when a certain somebody apparently made public his desire to sort them out, well, it wasnt done, was it

This was done?

4. Look at some of the stuff released, books, pieces of a floor for fucks sake, shambolic talking tours, its stinks of cashing in, and of exploiting the fans.

I havn't been exploted as I didn't buy anything other than the book

5. Will anything be released that isnt limited edition? A limited edition t shirt? Just a different colour. Bit of a piss take really. And how much more limited edition products will there be? Seems like one a week at the moment.

If there's a market why not

These are not ill informed opinions, these are statements of fact.

The Teacher wrote: Why the fuck would we want to talk about U2?

And anyway, you are totally missing the point:

1. Re issue after re issue were an insult to the New Order fans, as were the live performance put on by the band which, for the most part were phoned in, charging the not inconsiderable £35 a time, if not more.

I am a fan and was not insulted by any of the re issues

2. Hooky in particular has been putting his name on anything that will sell recently.

His choice and my choice not to buy anything. I did buy the book though and it's great

3. The digital re masters were a joke, and when a certain somebody apparently made public his desire to sort them out, well, it wasnt done, was it

This was done?

4. Look at some of the stuff released, books, pieces of a floor for fucks sake, shambolic talking tours, its stinks of cashing in, and of exploiting the fans.

I havn't been exploted as I didn't buy anything other than the book

5. Will anything be released that isnt limited edition? A limited edition t shirt? Just a different colour. Bit of a piss take really. And how much more limited edition products will there be? Seems like one a week at the moment.

If there's a market why not

These are not ill informed opinions, these are statements of fact.

I dont like many new bands, a couple perhaps, but I tend to like the older bands and can often been found lurking on forums like this. One thing they all have in common is that when theres no new music coming through because the bands are on hiatus or split up theres always a tonne of complaining and defending about issues which really have fuck all to do with us.

Some fans like to remember JD/NO at a particular point in time, but some have a hunger for more and appreciate almost anything to do with them...the odd live cover, books, t-shirts etc. Personally, i don't mind Hooky doing stuff with the Hac 'brand' or UP. It's his heritage and his right...it is for all of the band. As for the dancefloor being sold...didn't they do the same thing with the old Wembley pitch? I'd have no problem with it as a souvenir...better we have the oppurtunity than it being skipped or whatever. If people don't buy this stuff then he'll be out of pocket. Simple. I personally don't think most fans are that easy to exploit...that's selling us short.

Great this! Suppose it's given NOOL an Indian Summer, pure nostalgia.

Anyway.....

Let's have a heated debate.....

So my two pence worth is as follows;

Anyone who doesn't think it unreasonable to charge £600 for an item like this is living in a different world to the rest of us, already has more than enough money and probably doesn't understand the value of £600.

For those who say I shouldn't buy it if I don't like the price, I don't even want it! Wouldn't buy it if it was a tenner. The problem is it is still costing me. It's costing me respect for someone I looked up to, the whole Factory ethos thing and you can't put a price on that.

Another thing is this term Limited Edition being bandied around. How come we never see how many it is limited to? As these items have no intrinsic value, their worth is only what someone will pay for it, if the print run is limited to 50 then there is a possibility that demand will exceed supply, £30 000 received (however it is divvied up, don't care)and your £600 piece of wood/paper still holds some value. If the print run is 250 it is far less likely that demand will exceed supply and your £600 is now worth sweet FA. So unless you state the print run lets have enough of this limited edition bollocks, you are just using it to whip up a few sales, these items are intrinsically worthless.

James Thomas wrote: Great this! Suppose it's given NOOL an Indian Summer, pure nostalgia.

Anyway.....

Let's have a heated debate.....

So my two pence worth is as follows;

Anyone who doesn't think it unreasonable to charge £600 for an item like this is living in a different world to the rest of us, already has more than enough money and probably doesn't understand the value of £600.

For those who say I shouldn't buy it if I don't like the price, I don't even want it! Wouldn't buy it if it was a tenner. The problem is it is still costing me. It's costing me respect for someone I looked up to, the whole Factory ethos thing and you can't put a price on that.

Another thing is this term Limited Edition being bandied around. How come we never see how many it is limited to? As these items have no intrinsic value, their worth is only what someone will pay for it, if the print run is limited to 50 then there is a possibility that demand will exceed supply, £30 000 received (however it is divvied up, don't care)and your £600 piece of wood/paper still holds some value. If the print run is 250 it is far less likely that demand will exceed supply and your £600 is now worth sweet FA. So unless you state the print run lets have enough of this limited edition bollocks, you are just using it to whip up a few sales, these items are intrinsically worthless.

I'd rather have a mass debate..........

oh and while I'm on topic..... what a wanker Liam is.

JUST FUCK OFF YOU CUNT.

Ultraviolent wrote:

James Thomas wrote: Great this! Suppose it's given NOOL an Indian Summer, pure nostalgia.

Anyway.....

Let's have a heated debate.....

So my two pence worth is as follows;

Anyone who doesn't think it unreasonable to charge £600 for an item like this is living in a different world to the rest of us, already has more than enough money and probably doesn't understand the value of £600.

For those who say I shouldn't buy it if I don't like the price, I don't even want it! Wouldn't buy it if it was a tenner. The problem is it is still costing me. It's costing me respect for someone I looked up to, the whole Factory ethos thing and you can't put a price on that.

Another thing is this term Limited Edition being bandied around. How come we never see how many it is limited to? As these items have no intrinsic value, their worth is only what someone will pay for it, if the print run is limited to 50 then there is a possibility that demand will exceed supply, £30 000 received (however it is divvied up, don't care)and your £600 piece of wood/paper still holds some value. If the print run is 250 it is far less likely that demand will exceed supply and your £600 is now worth sweet FA. So unless you state the print run lets have enough of this limited edition bollocks, you are just using it to whip up a few sales, these items are intrinsically worthless.

I'd rather have a mass debate..........

oh and while I'm on topic..... what a wanker Liam is.

JUST FUCK OFF YOU CUNT.

what have Oasis got to do with it?

I admit there's probably a market for selling 'limited' items at higher prices, but as I've mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, if the price was too high (or perceived as too high), you run the risk of alienating potential customers. The very people who might buy the product if it were provided at a more reasonable/cheaper/affordable price. This may be one thing that some on here are concerned about. However, I'm not accusing Hooky of being unaware of this risk.

(From an international perspective...as of typing, £600 is about: 720 euros, 81889 yen, 957 US dollars, and so on. [From an online currency converter using live rates.] Which is a lot of money for many people these days.)

Just an economic POV, you see. That said, it's none of my business if someone bought it.

Well - seems like some raw nerves have been touched! This is probably why "officaldom" shouldn't really post on a fans forum - no matter how well-intentioned or well-received (or not) their comments are. Could you imagine Gill or Ferguson getting involved in a fans forum, or Hodgson/Purslow? or Mancini/ Garry Cook- oh he has and made a right arse of himself!

As for some of the complaints - I am firmly in the camp that wont be buying anything for £600, nor would I want a piece of the Hac dancefloor for even £5. The issuing of such items doesn't offend me - I just choose not to buy them. Leave them to those who can afford tham and want them.

I did buy the Hacienda book- a decent read and worth the tenner I paid for it. Hooky has to make a living but if what he is doing offends - don't buy it. As for the Light tour - again if you are offended don't go- no-one is forcing anyone to buy a ticket.

Personally I enjoy Morrissey playing Smiths tracks or Ian Brown doing Roses tracks when playing live. I go to be entertained and these are part of my growing up - nothing wrong with celebrating that. I will probably go to the Bunnymen at the Ritz doing Crocodiles and Heaven up Here- despite the lack of De Freitas and Les Pattinson. Is anyone saying that they shouldn't play these albums because only half the group are around? Is this some shameless karaoke/tribute band? Who cares- at the very least it's a night out with some mates with decent songs being played in the background but if the band is on scorching form it will be so much more.

Confusion33 wrote: Is anyone saying that they shouldn't play these albums because only half the group are around?

You think this is bad, Pop Will Eat Itself are returning with only one original member.

Gene wrote:

Confusion33 wrote: Is anyone saying that they shouldn't play these albums because only half the group are around?

You think this is bad, Pop Will Eat Itself are returning with only one original member.

Fuck, no!!!!

Where's Liam to save us from the torments of fascist music artists?! OH WHERE ART THOU?

leather_girl wrote: The very people who might buy the product if it were provided at a more reasonable/cheaper/affordable price. This may be one thing that some on here are concerned about.

(In my case) Nail. On. Head.

Okay, to summarise the prices of the 3 editions:

400 x Standard Editions at 262.50 (down from 350 quid) quid a pot 100 x Deluxe Editions at 600 quid a pot 2 x Ultimate Editions at silly money a pot

None of which I can really justify for what I would really want - i.e. 4 tracks on a 10" single...

It sounds to me like Hooky's got himself a very hard nosed straight talking accountant. Time to pay the taxman and think about retirement. It comes to evryone.

Re the silly money - this is what I typed tonight elsewhere.....

I heard that the 6 editions are going for £4,500 each - and that two are already sold.

You can get a decent bass guitar for £400-£500.

WTF do you get in the Ultimate Edition?

Hooky DNA?

This is what your 4.5 K buys you.....

THE ULTIMATE EDITION OF 2 SETS

The package contains:

a copy of the Deluxe edition a signed white label pressing of the EP one of only 6 limited edition hand made Hacienda bass guitars guitar fretboard made from Hacienda dancefloor with inlaid cedilla c motifs custom guitar flight case matching edition number on guitar and book

A guitar fretboard made from the hacienda dancefloor?

ladies and gentlemen, we have reached a new low. :barf:

Come on then Jack, or Fac 51 The Hacienda; whats the justification for this? How is this item of any artistic value? And from your little list Jack, how many of them have sunk this low?

ah, The Teacher has an agenda. Not a fan of Hooky.

how cute! but, you know, it is really getting boring.

asfaic Hooky can do whatever the fsck he wants. he earned that.

Tarbox23 wrote: ah, The Teacher has an agenda. Not a fan of Hooky.

how cute! but, you know, it is really getting boring.

asfaic Hooky can do whatever the fsck he wants. he earned that.

bollocks..

The Teacher is often wrong. And I'm sure he has been a fan of Hooky or he wouldnt have been to many NO gigs, unlike yourself Mr Tarbox.

I think this is a topic that merits conversation and criticism. Yes Mr Hook can do whatever he wants, and we can say whatever we want about it, despite it being described somewhat threateningly as 'slander'.

And he earned it many years ago; perhaps trying to cash in on it now is taking the piss a little. Where's that flogging a dead horse pic? Al?

I think the worst thing is.... you see your idols sell out, slowly except one or two, who refuse, and die paupers, but die true to the spirit. Then you see Hooky, who threatens to sell out from time to time, and signs little bits of paper inching in that direction. Then he just tips it all overboard, desperate to have a last poke at topping up the pension. Sad stuff really,when I'm sure there is good music left in there.

Go awnnnnnnnnnnnnn....

sorry to butt in but can anyone tell me when the asda 'smart price' flexi picture disc version in special gatefold sleeve is available for sale ?
worry not, i can afford that one for sure

ok really frustrated here...I wrote a fairly long post and I guess I "timed out" or something...

Here's the condensed version:

No problem with Special/limited editions. How many of us have and cherish some special or rare item in our collection?

The market will drive the price of the objects. If they are over priced then they wont sell...my sense is that there is a market for special/rare items (even if the scarcity is artificial) and that there are some fans that can and will purchase one of the three options.

That being said, where I feel a sense of frustration is with the fact that many of us are being priced out of being able to buy the MUSIC.

Hooky's bass lines run through my head every day and I do think that he has a rare natural talent for making music.

Where fans feel betrayed could be along these lines...we've slavishly bought everything the band has put out (yes even some of the inane reissues and compilations) because we love the music that the band (and its members) make.

Many of us are priced out of being able to add new pieces of music to our collections (and to our "life soundtrack") and that is frustrating...because many of us have truly supported the band for so long...denying us the music is the one thing that hurts the most.

I do think there is a remedy here. Once most of the special editions are sold...PH can simply release the tracks digitally...the people that bought the special edition still have beautiful art objects AND superior fidelity because they have vinyl.

I would really encourage Mr. Hook to consider finding an avenue to allow most of us to purchase the music...we are genuine fans and knowing that there is music that you've made that we cannot afford to hear is frustrating and I think will, in the end, alienate some of your most hardcore fans...

I (we?) have always paid for your music and we want to make sure you get paid for your latest creation as well...so let us purchase it and please don't deny us a chance to hear what you've made?

leefact25 wrote: This is what your 4.5 K buys you.....

THE ULTIMATE EDITION OF 2 SETS

The package contains:

a copy of the Deluxe edition a signed white label pressing of the EP one of only 6 limited edition hand made Hacienda bass guitars guitar fretboard made from Hacienda dancefloor with inlaid cedilla c motifs custom guitar flight case matching edition number on guitar and book

What 4.5k gets you is two leftover bass guitars (from the original, not selling as well as expected 6) and the two test pressings from the limited run.

johnny james wrote: not selling as well as expected

if they've sold any at all, that's better than I thought they'd do.

You'd atleast hoped he'd recorded his basslines while someone like Chris Moyles recorded the books dialogue. Either way, jokes aside and all this is shameless. And I know theres a sad niche of folk who'll buy anything tagged or related to NO/JD so there'll be more of these in the near future. Can you imagine the next object though? SPECIAL EDITION KINDLE DESIGNED BY PETER HOOK WITH THE ART OF LOVE WILL TEAR US APART ON THE BACK.

Thank you Hydropelican for making it plain exactly how I and others on here feel. You have just summed up exactly why I posted a rant about getting someone to post the Hooky gig for free. I've put good money into JD/NO and various assorted side projects since 1981 and to see that tracks are only being sold to the VERY privileged few annoys me to the core. In this era of cutbacks £600 - or even the larger edition for £450 could be a choice for many whether to buy the record or go on an annual holiday - and when the cutbacks dig deeper and fans lose their jobs paying that kind of money for four new tracks is decidedly out of the question.

The fact that FAC 51 The Hacienda can piously come on here and quote the pithy remark "Nice way to support the artist" just shows how out of touch Hacienda Plc are with the fans - unless they are obscenely rich of course.

WE HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING THE ARTIST FOR MANY YEARS!!!!!

leefact25 is one of my favourite posters at the moment.

Peter hook signed ,,,, for nothing 49 peices of joy division, new order, monaco, revenge, Memrobelia for me in God bless Oxford at a book launch for free entry, .. here endeth the lesson..

youve caught me at a bad time, so why dont you

Surely this has to be contender for post of the year no?

Some people havent got a clue what goes on behind the scenes and Hooky does a lot of stuff that the ordinary Joe doesn't get to know about.

Being a New Order fan and collector,it is nice to have the opportunity to buy limited edition stuff,and despite contrary to popular belief,people who have "connections" to the band dont neccesarily have access to said limited edition sruff and "we" most definately dont recieve said limited edition stuff for free.

Just thought i'd point that one out straight away. and to the person who sent me that extremely poisonous email you can fuck right off you cunt,i dont want to say anything more on that one,although if you wanna meet up to discuss than i'll gladly send you my fone number.

Right,what was the topic again?

So Liams got the kite on cos ooky is selling Hac dancefloor basses and limited edition £600 books and that,is that the crux of the arguement/discussion?

The Teacher wrote:

Or if Tina Weymouth, Chris Stein or somebody started doing Talking Heads or Blondie tours?

Learn your music history gobshite.

Wise up Steve.

This isnt about the opportunity, (and you know what, I'll put this next bit in big bold writing so anyone, officialdom, band member, webmaster or whoever can read it) its about

HOOKY EXPLOITING THE FANS BY PRODUCING OVERPRICED, WORTHLESS JUNK AND SELLING IT FOR RIDICULOUS PRICES

GlasVegas wrote:

The Teacher wrote:

Or if Tina Weymouth, Chris Stein or somebody started doing Talking Heads or Blondie tours?

Learn your music history gobshite.

Erm... they did their own songs! Bit of a difference.

The Teacher wrote: Wise up Steve.

This isnt about the opportunity, (and you know what, I'll put this next bit in big bold writing so anyone, officialdom, band member, webmaster or whoever can read it) its about

HOOKY EXPLOITING THE FANS BY PRODUCING OVERPRICED, WORTHLESS JUNK AND SELLING IT FOR RIDICULOUS PRICES

Thanks for that Liam.

I most certainly havent seen the said Hac dancefloor Basses and £600 limited edition books etc etc and most defo havent had any "official" press release/email confirming said items for sale.(might be cos i dont get on here much now) Perhaps someone could put a link up for me to have a gander at?

There will always be a market fpr JD/NO FAC/HAC stuff irrespective of how much the stuff is on sale for.

Just ask ally or nickos kingos or the other diehard collectors that post on here.

I cant afford £600 btw so wont be purchasing said limited edition,perhaps a lottery win would do it.

Well, if you havent seen them then there are links on the first page of this very forum.

Interesting seeing so many people defending the indefensible.

I think Nick King said it best, when in the poll that was deleted thread, he said that I was only saying what most people were thinking.

The affection that the Hacienda and Factory image once had must have been seriously eroded in most people's minds by now. I am certainly pissed off about, and I think I have a right to be. I used to feel that those Factory numbers, the design cues, and their the global influence were very special things. What's more, I'd come to that conclusion on my own. Nobody pointed it out to me, they just put it in front of my and I loved it. This, if there was such a thing, was part of the Factory ethic. Create something nice, put it out there and forget about it. Nobody said it was Limited Edition. They just didn't make that many.

Those fucking awful trainers were where it started for me. Priced way above the reach of most, and too horrible to actually wear, they were destined for a museum and so they were. On prominent display at that Urbis exhibition, a contrived artifact that we were supposed to yearn for. Placed on a pedestal in the middle of all the real, important items.

If I'd closed my eyes when I saw them, I wonder whether I could have imagined a yellow and black bass guitar with a fretboard made out of an old floor?

wrote:

There will always be a market fpr JD/NO FAC/HAC stuff irrespective of how much the stuff is on sale for.

That's clearly the point that most-people-on-here-who-are-thinking-what-Liam-is-only-saying are thinking: that the production of these artifacts is directly and deliberately exploiting the collectors of rare and high-value items. To them I say bollocks. If you can't tell the difference between genuinely Factory artifacts (ie those created by Factory itself, when it actually existed) from, say, this:

(more here)

deserve all they get. A fool and his money are easily parted.

I really don't care that someone is trying to sell this crap, there are worse rip-offs wherever you look. What it's done to something that I used to care about does irritate me.

I notice Chris Hewitt was in on this - the same guy Hooky got heated with on myspace a couple of years ago regarding some JD releases that were foisted on to the general public.....

If people can afford or are silly enough to spend these amounts then that is their prerogative. Nice items to own. These songs will one day be available in a more affordable edition anyway. What's the big deal? None. Chillout.

Reading these replies, I can only imagine how some older fans might think about what Hooky is doing.

I never got to experience the Hacienda (obviously), but I don't want to believe (or even get the impression) that the Hacienda was just a lot of FAC numbers and the yellow/black design.

I wasn't aware of this bit of news either, although it's a few weeks old....it isn't exactly helping...

Peter Hook’s new TV talent showby Peter Jolly Former Joy Division and New Order bassist Peter Hook is spearheading a brand new TV talent show to rival the likes of Simon Cowell’s crappy X Factor.The show is entitled The Source and Hooky will be hosting it from The Factory indie-club in Manchester which he owns. The show will have a completely different concept to the current TV talent shows which churn out pop-puppets controlled by music executives, and who have little or no creative input into their records or performances...

I kind of stopped reading at this point, but by all means click the link if you are sure you want to know more.

CTB

CTB wrote: I wasn't aware of this bit of news either, although it's a few weeks old....it isn't exactly helping...

Peter Hook’s new TV talent showby Peter Jolly Former Joy Division and New Order bassist Peter Hook is spearheading a brand new TV talent show to rival the likes of Simon Cowell’s crappy X Factor.The show is entitled The Source and Hooky will be hosting it from The Factory indie-club in Manchester which he owns. The show will have a completely different concept to the current TV talent shows which churn out pop-puppets controlled by music executives, and who have little or no creative input into their records or performances...

I kind of stopped reading at this point, but by all means click the link if you are sure you want to know more.

CTB

There's a bit more info here too: http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/tv_and_showbiz/s/1302271_new_tv_talent_show_seeks_unsigned_bands

Who's ready for a Fist of Fun type show with Steve and Gillian? At this point Barney can judge on Britains got talent, and Hooky can be in the final potter films.

CTB wrote: I wasn't aware of this bit of news either, although it's a few weeks old....it isn't exactly helping...

Aw shit, wait til this becomes widely known

And Peter Gabriel? Mmm, cutting edge.

The Paradise Man wrote: These songs will one day be available in a more affordable edition anyway.

You dont know that for certain and Hookys "people" have had the opportunity to clear that up but have yet to do so.

These very people also need to know how passionate some fans still are and not assume everyone has a personal anti-Hooky agenda.

Some here do need to chill out and have a bit more respect but the book thing has rankled a lot of fans due to the cynical marketing ploy of including the exclusive tunes.

Its a step too far and everyone knows it.

Tock wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: These songs will one day be available in a more affordable edition anyway.

You dont know that for certain and Hookys "people" have had the oppurtunity to clear that up but have yet to do so.

I must admit my opinion has partly changed since this (mass)debate started. Hey! Democracy works! Anyway, I also thought the tracks would eventually come out but now Im not so sure. As it says above if there were plans in place to release the tracks later it could've been announced to partly apease some of those on here. The fact that this hasnt happened could be for two reasons; 1) they wont be released seperately or 2) they might be but announcing it now could damage any prospective sales.

Im not sure I like what either option represents.

He is but a step away from Ready-Steady-Cook.

you know if you don't like the price you don't have to buy it. I'm surprised Hooky has not been attacked on the street about this...

also, you should start worrying if Hooky starts selling Hacienda china plates on his new TV show

Exeter wrote: you know if you don't like the price you don't have to buy it....

This is it.

As a young person who was born only 10 years before the Hacienda closed, I do not really want to get the impression that the Hacienda was all about FAC numbers or yellow/black stuff. I'm not angry and I'm not anti-Hooky either, but that's how I honestly feel.

The Teacher wrote:

GlasVegas wrote:

The Teacher wrote:

Or if Tina Weymouth, Chris Stein or somebody started doing Talking Heads or Blondie tours?

Learn your music history gobshite.

Erm... they did their own songs! Bit of a difference.

From the article....

Furthermore, a live CD/video of the first tour was planned, featuring performances of songs originally recorded by Talking Heads reinterpreted by the album's guest artists. However, David Byrne sued the band[1], asserting that their name and presentation was too evocative of Talking Heads, and put an end to those plans.

it just shows you rubbish things get when successful bands split up

GlasVegas wrote:

The Teacher wrote:

GlasVegas wrote:

The Teacher wrote:

Or if Tina Weymouth, Chris Stein or somebody started doing Talking Heads or Blondie tours?

Learn your music history gobshite.

Erm... they did their own songs! Bit of a difference.

From the article....

Furthermore, a live CD/video of the first tour was planned, featuring performances of songs originally recorded by Talking Heads reinterpreted by the album's guest artists. However, David Byrne sued the band[1], asserting that their name and presentation was too evocative of Talking Heads, and put an end to those plans.

And on top of that, let's look at what you said earlier on in this thread:

Billy Corgan playing as The Smashing Pumpkins is a joke, which is why I refused to go.

Yet Corgan has released two albums of new material and an EP. So how can he still be a joke if he's doing new stuff, considering that it's generally acknowledged that he wrote the bulk of the Pumpkins catalogue.

leather_girl wrote: As a young person who was born only 10 years before the Hacienda closed, I do not really want to get the impression that the Hacienda was all about FAC numbers or yellow/black stuff. I'm not angry and I'm not anti-Hooky either, but that's how I honestly feel.

It was certainly no place for a 10-year old. I was in my 20s and it used to terrify me!

Pablo Bastardo wrote:

leather_girl wrote: As a young person who was born only 10 years before the Hacienda closed, I do not really want to get the impression that the Hacienda was all about FAC numbers or yellow/black stuff. I'm not angry and I'm not anti-Hooky either, but that's how I honestly feel.

It was certainly no place for a 10-year old. I was in my 20s and it used to terrify me!

Younger people may get an even more stereotypical image of the Hac w/ these items and events. That's what I'm trying to say. I didn't experience it, and I don't think the Hacienda was Godlike, but it has a lot more history (and maybe notoriety) than just those FAC numbers and that yellow/black design (the design that Hooky seemed to use for the bass guitar).

I agree that Hooky can do whatever he wants---but some things do come across as 'cheapening' the legacy (even if he doesn't intend to do that) of the Hacienda and Factory Records. That was not really a criticism---more of an observation. I can only imagine how some of the older fans may feel about this. And I shall shut up because I've made my point very calmly and as objectively as possible.

Personally i think it is entirely up 2 hooky what he does.it is none of our business.you are all getting so worked up as if its the end of the world!whilst u r all moaning think of the poor people in pakistan who have lost everything in the flood.some of u really need 2 put things in perspective!if u don't agree with what hooky is doing don't buy it & don't moan either!

Can i just say that this is all very entertaining!

It's threads like this that keep me coming back for more. Love it.

Denholm Reynholm wrote:

Joanne Bailey wrote: Personally i think it is entirely up 2 hooky what he does.it is none of our business.you are all getting so worked up as if its the end of the world!whilst u r all moaning think of the poor people in pakistan who have lost everything in the flood.

Awesome. The Pakistan flood distaster used totally and completely out of context to justify the flogging of a four thousand pound "product" by a millionaire rock star and why the fans are bastards for daring to question it.

Like I mentioned previously, a lot of this whole debate seems to be underpinned by the assumption that ex members of New Order are somehow rolling in cash and don't need to earn a living on a day to day basis. From my somewhat limited knowledge of the industry in general and the band/band members in particular I can say quite confidently that this isn't the case. Millionaire rock stars don't need to go out and DJ in clubs or drag a backing band and crew on the road for what are, comparitively, small fees.

I'll say it again, if you think being one quarter of New Order would leave you in a position that you never have to go out and earn money again then you're wrong.

Denholm i didn't say the fans are bastards for daring to question it - u did. U r entitled 2 yr opinion jst as i am entitled 2 mine.as i said b4 if what hooky does offends u that much don't buy it .no one is forcing u 2.i am saying keep things in perspective. We can argue with each other in our cosy water tight homes with all mod cons, spare a thought 4 the victims of this disaster who have lost everything & would probably love 2 swop places with us

Denholm Reynholm wrote:

GlasVegas wrote: Like I mentioned previously, a lot of this whole debate seems to be underpinned by the assumption that ex members of New Order are somehow rolling in cash and don't need to earn a living on a day to day basis. From my somewhat limited knowledge of the industry in general and the band/band members in particular I can say quite confidently that this isn't the case. Millionaire rock stars don't need to go out and DJ in clubs or drag a backing band and crew on the road for what are, comparitively, small fees.

I'll say it again, if you think being one quarter of New Order would leave you in a position that you never have to go out and earn money again then you're wrong.

I wasn't alluding to that type of justification there.

I just found it slightly odd someone was comparing a bunch of complaints about a guitar made out of a dancefloor to a big flood disaster in another country.

Yeah I understood that and I agree. But still, there seems to be this persistent lack of awareness among folks that Hooky and all the rest of them need to earn money as do 99% of all musicians, even the ones who've once been in successful bands. There's a defineate moral undertone to many of the arguments in this thread that seems to go along the lines of 'how dare Hooky try and earn money from something that's so precious and revered'. Yes it is precious and it is revered by us all but ultimately for Hooky and the rest of New Order it is/was a career, a way to earn a living.

So if Hooky creates something, be it music, t-shirts or Unknown Pleasure's panty-girdles, then, as the license holder, he's got the right to go out and try and earn a pound note from it. As the consumer, we've all got the right not to buy it. Question the appropriateness of some of it and the credibility of Hooky for getting involved in it by all means but avoid moralising and speaking of being 'ripped off'. He can only 'rip you off' if you actually buy any of his stuff.

Paying £20 to see the abomination that is Bad Lieutenant left me feeling 'ripped off' so when Freebass rolled into town, having heard that they were even worse, I learned my lesson and didn't bother going. Dead easy.

Agreed glasvegas

Chris Nash wrote:

GlasVegas wrote:

Yeah I understood that and I agree. But still, there seems to be this persistent lack of awareness among folks that Hooky and all the rest of them need to earn money as do 99% of all musicians, even the ones who've once been in successful bands. There's a defineate moral undertone to many of the arguments in this thread that seems to go along the lines of 'how dare Hooky try and earn money from something that's so precious and revered'. Yes it is precious and it is revered by us all but ultimately for Hooky and the rest of New Order it is/was a career, a way to earn a living.

So if Hooky creates something, be it music, t-shirts or Unknown Pleasure's panty-girdles, then, as the license holder, he's got the right to go out and try and earn a pound note from it. As the consumer, we've all got the right not to buy it. Question the appropriateness of some of it and the credibility of Hooky for getting involved in it by all means but avoid moralising and speaking of being 'ripped off'. He can only 'rip you off' if you actually buy any of his stuff.

Paying £20 to see the abomination that is Bad Lieutenant left me feeling 'ripped off' so when Freebass rolled into town, having heard that they were even worse, I learned my lesson and didn't bother going. Dead easy.

My answer is simple:

Can we now get onto more important discussions, like drowning people in Pakistan?

Can we now get onto more important discussions, like drowning people in Pakistan?

I did cringe the other day during the England - Pakistan test match when the commentator was saying it was a 'tragedy' that it was raining in Birmingham.

He offered no opinion on Kevin Petersens cricket bat made out of original pieces of the Hacienda.

EdelBrock wrote:

Can we now get onto more important discussions, like drowning people in Pakistan?

My opinion is that drowning people in Pakistan (or anywhere) would be bad thing.

One wonders at this juncture how much of the Hacienda dancefloor that has been wasted on fretboards could instead have been used to crucify Mr Hook?

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: One wonders at this juncture how much of the Hacienda dancefloor that has been wasted on fretboards could instead have been used to crucify Mr Hook?

I was waiting for the above comment. you have to be creative with your hate people!

Exeter wrote:

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: One wonders at this juncture how much of the Hacienda dancefloor that has been wasted on fretboards could instead have been used to crucify Mr Hook?

I was waiting for the above comment. you have to be creative with your hate people!

Or, indeed, creative with your wearily facetious remarks. Still, thanks for the kind words. Is that a piece of the Hacienda dancefloor in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: One wonders at this juncture how much of the Hacienda dancefloor that has been wasted on fretboards could instead have been used to crucify Mr Hook?

I think a boat for Pakistan would have been in order.

leather_girl wrote: ...Hooky can do whatever he wants...

How often has this been said on this board?

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote:

Exeter wrote:

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: One wonders at this juncture how much of the Hacienda dancefloor that has been wasted on fretboards could instead have been used to crucify Mr Hook?

I was waiting for the above comment. you have to be creative with your hate people!

Or, indeed, creative with your wearily facetious remarks. Still, thanks for the kind words. Is that a piece of the Hacienda dancefloor in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?

so you want me to be glad to see you you sick bastard?

God bless the broad magnificence of the Atlantic Ocean and all that will never, ever make it across from the west coast of the British Isles to the Eastern seaboard.

Taxi to Pakistan!!

Is there any chance of these debates NOT ending with the mantra 'if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it'?

Does anyone here NOT know that?

The main reason this kicked off is that there is music being released by Hooky that (so far) is priced out of reach of practically ALL his fans.

So....the 'you don't have to buy it' mantra doesn't really apply when most people CAN'T AFFORD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

johnny james wrote: Is there any chance of these debates NOT ending with the mantra 'if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it'?

Does anyone here NOT know that?

The main reason this kicked off is that there is music being released by Hooky that (so far) is priced out of reach of practically ALL his fans.

So....the 'you don't have to buy it' mantra doesn't really apply when most people CAN'T AFFORD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

You can attain them much cheaper here:

Discount New Order Tunes

Exeter wrote:

so you want me to be glad to see you you sick bastard?

Im new round here. Is this still banter?

Gene wrote:

Exeter wrote:

so you want me to be glad to see you you sick bastard?

Im new round here. Is this still banter?

Banter? Its practically a sweet nothing whispered in your ear as your beloved gives your lobe a gentle-but-meaningful nuzzle.

Now, after all this bad blood I sense it would be a progressive move on Hooky's part if he rebuilt all the decimated homes in Iraq and Afghanistan with bits of the Hacienda dancefloor. There's so much of that shit lying around he could probably make a start on the new World Trade Centre as well.

johnny james wrote: Is there any chance of these debates NOT ending with the mantra 'if you don't like it, you don't have to buy it'?

Does anyone here NOT know that?

The main reason this kicked off is that there is music being released by Hooky that (so far) is priced out of reach of practically ALL his fans.

So....the 'you don't have to buy it' mantra doesn't really apply when most people CAN'T AFFORD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

And your point is? I'd really like an original Peter Howson hanging above my fireplace but I cannae afford one. Life's a shithouse. He's still a top artist though.

If some jabroni is desparate to have this £600 EP in their life (and fuck knows why they would cos that 'Vikings' track sounds woeful) then they can wait until it inevitably appears on Limewire or some torrent site and get it for free. Don't make out like the world's going to be deprived of some great NO related hidden treasure because the man on the street can't afford it.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT (see what I did... etc etc)

Gene wrote:

Exeter wrote:

so you want me to be glad to see you you sick bastard?

Im new round here. Is this still banter?

Aye. You should've seen it in the old days.

Reckon his house is worth well over a million!!

GlasVegas wrote:

Denholm Reynholm wrote:

Joanne Bailey wrote: Personally i think it is entirely up 2 hooky what he does.it is none of our business.you are all getting so worked up as if its the end of the world!whilst u r all moaning think of the poor people in pakistan who have lost everything in the flood.

Awesome. The Pakistan flood distaster used totally and completely out of context to justify the flogging of a four thousand pound "product" by a millionaire rock star and why the fans are bastards for daring to question it.

Like I mentioned previously, a lot of this whole debate seems to be underpinned by the assumption that ex members of New Order are somehow rolling in cash and don't need to earn a living on a day to day basis. From my somewhat limited knowledge of the industry in general and the band/band members in particular I can say quite confidently that this isn't the case. Millionaire rock stars don't need to go out and DJ in clubs or drag a backing band and crew on the road for what are, comparitively, small fees.

I'll say it again, if you think being one quarter of New Order would leave you in a position that you never have to go out and earn money again then you're wrong.

This 'debate' just seems 2b getting out of hand (rolls eyes). U all need 2 calm down all this stress isn't good 4 u

We enjoy it.

1979

Personally, I think this and the other thread are the most entertaining that the board has been for a very long time!

(as evidenced by the fact that around 5,500 have viewed it)!

Nick King wrote: Personally, I think this and the other thread are the most entertaining that the board has been for a very long time!

(as evidenced by the fact that around 5,500 have viewed it)!

So thats 5500 people who potentially may have bought the tunes some of us are so peeved about!

I suppose any publicity is still good publicity.

I do hope Hooky's camp can see through the shit stirring, ignore the insulting stupid posts and realise that most of us just want the choice to keep buying his tunes.

Joanne Bailey wrote: This 'debate' just seems 2b getting out of hand (rolls eyes). U all need 2 calm down all this stress isn't good 4 u

oi! go and do some ironing.

Tock wrote:

So thats 5500 people who potentially may have bought the tunes some of us are so peeved about!

I suppose any publicity is still good publicity.

Actually, its more like around 50 of us viewing it 110 times each.

Burt Burterson wrote:

Tock wrote:

So thats 5500 people who potentially may have bought the tunes some of us are so peeved about!

I suppose any publicity is still good publicity.

Actually, its more like around 50 of us viewing it 110 times each.

Aye but you get my drift.

Tock wrote:

Burt Burterson wrote:

Tock wrote:

So thats 5500 people who potentially may have bought the tunes some of us are so peeved about!

I suppose any publicity is still good publicity.

Actually, its more like around 50 of us viewing it 110 times each.

Aye but you get my drift.

That i do. And we only do it cos we care.

Burt what sort of stupid response is that?like i said getting out of hand.hooky ain't the 1st musician 2 cash in & he won't b the last.get over it

Joanne Bailey wrote: Burt what sort of stupid response is that?like i said getting out of hand.hooky ain't the 1st musician 2 cash in & he won't b the last.get over it

I find ironing therapeutic and stress relieving.

And I'd just like to say that after seeing your passionate plea regards the terrible plight of the Pakistan people, I will now be diverting the £4,500 I had 'earmarked' for Hooky's Ultimate package, into the Pakistan Relief Fund.*

* Depending on outcome of the Midweek lottery.

Do you think Hooky could build a faux Camelot with the Factory paint job, left over wood, and unsold packages? I think it'd boast real well on Home and Garden television.

Here’s the thing – the main problem I have with some of Hooky’s recent activities are that they are not in keeping with the spirit of JD and NO. I concede this ‘spirit’ may all have been an illusion, but if so it was still a cherished one – the band had a certain approach to how they did things – not just making the music but everything else that goes with being a band. They had ideals and were (seemingly) different - they didn’t play the game. For me, this identity of the band, the sense that the music was the important part and all other concerns were secondary, was a big part of their appeal, almost as much as the music itself.

Maybe this perception was entirely down to Rob.

I know times change, and we all have to make a quid. I’m in my late 30s and I don’t live like I did when I was in my 20s. The thing is though, you move on and forge ahead the best you can - I'm not a huge fan of Freebass, but it was at least something new - even if they threw in a few older crowd pleasers from the past in their live set I wouldn't mind, but the these latest activities are far worse than that.

Like I said, it’s probably all perception, but to me the band were unique, their music and their approach *meant* something (and still do today), and it’s just sad to see the financially-adjusted ideology leading to cheapened legacy.

Just an opinion.

Oh, and as someone else said - if you don’t agree, well you didn’t have to read it, just as “if you don’t like it you don’t have to buy it…”

CTB

CTB gets to the nub for me. Back int day when i were nothing but a young lad NO where something special, bugger all press, no promotion, no lyrics printed, no pictures on albums, singles not on albums ,insisting on doing TOTP live, just focusing on music & gigs. I blame Pete Tong & London fucking records.

Joanne Bailey wrote: Burt what sort of stupid response is that?like i said getting out of hand.hooky ain't the 1st musician 2 cash in & he won't b the last.get over it

Is this conversation getting longer? Yes. But is it 'out of hand'? I don't think so. I've seen far worse attitudes online (such as trolls) than what goes on here on NOOL.

it ain't the same New Order i signed up for in 1985,

that much i know.

No its not the same new order i liked from 87/88 either but i still love the band and still respect them as musicians.i am dismayed at the amount of negativity here and if i was a guest i would wonder what on earth i walked into.CTB it is nice 2 see someone debate without being rude and giving constructive criticism without ranting

As someone earlier said, if the band were to read this they should take the good with the bad. We may not all agree on Hooks direction, lord knows it's become comical, but blind support of anything/everything done is the worst kind. If we don't voice our opinions we may end up with a FAC reality show in lieu of the real world. Or the apprentice Hooky edition.

I must say Michael Preda has made excellent contributions this past week. He deserves a "Bravo!"

I still think Joy Division Bandioke is the next step. Unfortunately, my lawyer mate says i cant patent it. Shame that.

Their is an opening on American idol. It seems like something Hooky might fancy these days.

Just been glancing through the wonderful "YouTube" thread below. It's not really surprising that some folk are so upset when you look at the huge gulf between some of fantastic stuff available for free on there and the current state of affairs detailed above. People have gone out of their way over the years to record this stuff and distribute it to anyone else who cares out of nothing else but love for - and loyalty to - the band.

A bit of mutual respect might not have gone amiss somewhere along the way. That is all.

Tarbox23 wrote: it ain't the same New Order i signed up for in 1985,

that much i know.

Not necessarily true.

1985: Blue Monday singles from a couple years before made negative revenue. The Hacienda, just a few years old starts taking in and being supported by Low-Life's revenue.

Now: Hooky selling off trivial stuff at outrageous prices that even his greatest fans balk at.

NO: bad at finances and understanding marketing then, bad at finances and understanding marketing now.

The Teacher wrote: I must say Michael Preda has made excellent contributions this past week. He deserves a "Bravo!"

I still think Joy Division Bandioke is the next step. Unfortunately, my lawyer mate says i cant patent it. Shame that.

Thank you, I do try.

And don't fret, we're headed for Joy Division Rock Band. If you complete all the songs Ian makes it to the US tour and they go on till kingdom come.

michael preda wrote:

The Teacher wrote: I must say Michael Preda has made excellent contributions this past week. He deserves a "Bravo!"

Thank you, I do try.

Isn't NOOL wonderful.

Pablo Bastardo wrote:

michael preda wrote:

The Teacher wrote: I must say Michael Preda has made excellent contributions this past week. He deserves a "Bravo!"

Thank you, I do try.

Isn't NOOL wonderful.

Fuck off!

had to. can't have this place become civilized ya know. we have a reputation at stake here

EdelBrock wrote:

Pablo Bastardo wrote:

michael preda wrote:

The Teacher wrote: I must say Michael Preda has made excellent contributions this past week. He deserves a "Bravo!"

Thank you, I do try.

Isn't NOOL wonderful.

Fuck off!

had to. can't have this place become civilized ya know. we have a reputation at stake here

Now now, don't come to mind my deeds

michael preda wrote:

And don't fret, we're headed for Joy Division Rock Band. If you complete all the songs Ian makes it to the US tour and they go on till kingdom come.

HAH! Hooky is probably negotiating with Rock Band today!

michael preda wrote:

And don't fret, we're headed for Joy Division Rock Band. If you complete all the songs Ian makes it to the US tour and they go on till kingdom come.

I can't be the only one waiting with bated breath for FAC100786, the reissue of the Factory menstrual egg timer in 21st century digital format? Inevitably it will come packaged in chic faux-Saville design and accompanied by samples of genuine menstrual discharge from such luminaries as Cath Carroll, the bassist from Northside's girlfriend, Doris the cleaner and Angela who used to work in the Hacienda bar (February-March 1984), all donated from Alan Wise's personal collection. A superb collectible and an affectionate testament to being on the blob during those halcyon days.

Limited Edition of 50; retailing at £3500. The first five sold also come with a small sachet containing Hooky's nasal trimmings.

Anyone got an amex card :\ohwell: Freebass & Amex gig!!!!

Here we go again. Talk about bad timing...

Sadly, the ticket link doesnt work.

Am I to ascertain that this is

1. opportunity to play bass with Hooky? I suppose I'll give this the benefit of the doubt, although if anyone wants to learn bass the Music teacher at my school does private lessons and is much cheaper. And probably a better teacher as well*

2. A gig where you can only go if you have the right credit card?

Freebass: Band of the people.

*I cannot wait for the usual suspects to come on here and say how beneficial it would be to spend a few minutes with Hooky teaching you how to play bass, and how that would be of far more value than any kind of proper tuition.

The Teacher wrote: Sadly, the ticket link doesnt work.

Am I to ascertain that this is

1. opportunity to play bass with Hooky? I suppose I'll give this the benefit of the doubt, although if anyone wants to learn bass the Music teacher at my school does private lessons and is much cheaper. And probably a better teacher as well*

2. A gig where you can only go if you have the right credit card?

Freebass: Band of the people.

*I cannot wait for the usual suspects to come on here and say how beneficial it would be to spend a few minutes with Hooky teaching you how to play bass, and how that would be of far more value than any kind of proper tuition.

Err........... Master Class in bass tuition if you don't mind. And a Q&A session + gig!

Oh... er... yeah. Masterclass. Sorry, must have missed that.

The Haçienda must be (re)Built wrote: Anyone got an amex card :\ohwell: Freebass & Amex gig!!!!

Someone please say that this is not true!

Yup, American Express users only. Hot dang!

Bass Master Class, Exclusive Preview

James Thomas wrote: Bass Master Class, Exclusive Preview

excellent

in another youtube he skinned a rabbit in under 45 seconds

Oh lord, and Rome burns again.

'ckinell.. This is just getting too easy. What's wrong with a gentle sell out?

On a 'chuckle' note... all the local newspapers such as Bognor Regis Times are selling the Goodwood festival, as buy a ticket for Friday or Saturday, and get the Sunday free (i.e. the night Hooky is closing).

The Teacher wrote: Yup, American Express users only. Hot dang!

I didnt agree with everything you said earlier but I think you've just won it now.

Dear oh dear.

Burt Burterson wrote: 'ckinell.. This is just getting too easy.

Makes it sound like you have an agenda, Burt.

How much can you learn in one hour anyway? I cant play the bass, after a one hour masterclass can I expect to be able to?

Gene wrote:

The Teacher wrote: Yup, American Express users only. Hot dang!

I didnt agree with everything you said earlier but I think you've just won it now.

Dear oh dear.

Thank you.

Gene wrote: How much can you learn in one hour anyway? I cant play the bass, after a one hour masterclass can I expect to be able to?

The real perk, of course, is that your subsequent credit card statement will be given its own unique FAC number for posterity....

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote:

Gene wrote: How much can you learn in one hour anyway? I cant play the bass, after a one hour masterclass can I expect to be able to?

The real perk, of course, is that your subsequent credit card statement will be given its own unique FAC number for posterity....

Pablo Bastardo wrote:

Burt Burterson wrote: 'ckinell.. This is just getting too easy.

Makes it sound like you have an agenda, Burt.

Only thing on the agenda is a hope that he will make good music again. Seems a bit distant right now, but i would hope he can rip some new killer basslines once more, and at an affordable mass-produced price.

I don't care if people get special access to Freebass or PH by being a customer of a particular merchant (in this case amex)...if the merchant is paying the band then they have a right to invite who they like.

To restate my original position...no-one questions the "right" of PH to create and sell whatever he likes at whatever price to whomever he likes...but we have a "Right" to be disappointed if he prices many of us way out of hearing/buying the music itself (I don't even argue with us being priced out of the packaging...thats fine by me as I'm in it for the music)...especially after us buying all of those reissues over the years and showing that we want to support the band's ability to make a living.

Hooky didn't set the price for the ltd ed book release. The publishers did. He agreed to do it by making it worthwhile and by giving the fans some extras, like: the EP, the dancefloor, the signature, the postcards, the artwork etc. Good on him I say. Have a day off...

The Paradise Man wrote: Hooky didn't set the price for the ltd ed book release. The publishers did. He agreed to do it by making it worthwhile and by giving the fans some extras, like: the EP, the dancefloor, the signature, the postcards, the artwork etc. Good on him I say. Have a day off...

Ok...so if the ep was an "extra"...where else can I pick it up...or the music that's on it...

oh wait...its ONLY available with the special edition of the book...then it is exclusively tied to it...and therefore the result is that we are priced out of obtaining the music.

Artists have control over what gets released and for how much...or at the very least...Hooky could make the music available to us in another format that is realistically available to most of us...this is HIS choice...not a publisher's choice.

It is fair to hold him accountable for choosing to make this music only available to his wealthiest fans if this is the only format that it is sold in.

Again...its about disappointment not "right"

Agreed, he has at this point in time made the release of the EP exclusive to the book release. But we can all rest assured that one day the 4 songs will be available separately..... Remember... this is a Limited release, at a high price granted. It is not for the masses. Judge it for what it is, not for what it ain't! Exclusivity is the key here.... Collectibility is the key here... This is not a standard release... That comes later....

So when the tracks are "possibly" release din the future, will they come in a wooden case with your own FAC number, a certificate of authenticity, and a saville type engraving?

I was hoping it'd be like the noble collections "ring" from LOTR.

michael preda wrote: So when the tracks are "possibly" release din the future, will they come in a wooden case with your own FAC number, a certificate of authenticity, and a saville type engraving?

I was hoping it'd be like the noble collections "ring" from LOTR.

No, that's a bit too far fetched..

Day of the LORDS more like!

The Paradise Man wrote: But we can all rest assured that one day the 4 songs will be available separately.....

How do you know that?

Nick King wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: But we can all rest assured that one day the 4 songs will be available separately.....

How do you know that?

Reliably informed.... I would have thought it was patently obvious. Hopefully not in a remastered form though!

michael preda wrote: So when the tracks are "possibly" release din the future, will they come in a wooden case with your own FAC number, a certificate of authenticity, and a saville type engraving?

I was hoping it'd be like the noble collections "ring" from LOTR.

anyone wearing that ring is screaming to get their arse kicked... almost as bad as a bumper sticker on a window I saw today: "Hogwarts Alumni"...

well if the tracks are released in a general way then I can live with that...

Hooky should take these comments for what they are...a simple desire by his fans to have more music!

...not a denial of his right to make a living as he sees fit.

EdelBrock wrote:

michael preda wrote: So when the tracks are "possibly" release din the future, will they come in a wooden case with your own FAC number, a certificate of authenticity, and a saville type engraving?

I was hoping it'd be like the noble collections "ring" from LOTR.

anyone wearing that ring is screaming to get their arse kicked... almost as bad as a bumper sticker on a window I saw today: "Hogwarts Alumni"...

Hydrapelican wrote: well if the tracks are released in a general way then I can live with that...

Hooky should take these comments for what they are...a simple desire by his fans to have more music!

...not a denial of his right to make a living as he sees fit.

Well said. The biggest thing for me is this: stop releasing the same old tired material that everyone has had since back in the day! No disrespect to Hooky, Bernard, and Stephen, but go through your tape collections and find some truly exclusive material that nobody has ever heard.

As far as New Order releases, come through with “The Beach, Jul 29 1980“, recording. New Order’s first gig ever. A true piece of history; something that is truly exceptional. They have the reel. They also have unreleased gigs that are truly exceptional as well. They are doing nothing with these recordings.

As far as Joy Division releases, the band have all kinds of tapes in their private collections, just collecting dust. I feel Hooky should release the Middlebrough recording from 1977. That recording what give JD fans an incredible insight into the evolution of Joy Division’s sound. None of us have heard any live recordings from 1977 and 1978; that I know of! What about some rehearsal material as well?

I would be more then willing to spend a little more money on these kinds of releases; no matter how they are packaged. Ideally reissues with bonus disc’s would fit the best, and of course if we are talking about reissues, then do the studio material the right way, and stop fucking compressing the music; which destroys it!

I don’t have a problem with how Hooky makes a living, I like Hooky, so I’m not going to say anything negative about him, I just want the band and record company to give the fans what they really want. That’s my point; just do right by the fans and we will take care of the band by buying the product.

It’s sad that we(the fans) have to turn to a blog to find quality releases, and the audio released wasn’t even Lossless! I find it funny that a few fans (Recycle Blog) can completely out class the record company and show them how to release the singles! In the end, I seriously doubt their will be anymore quality New Order or Joy Division releases, with the state of the band right now! I just don’t think anymore releases will be put together; which sucks for us. Again I really feel like if the band and record company take care of the fans and give us what we want; we will take care of them in return by buying these releases………………………….

250

Who'd have thought it eh?

A few choice snippets from John Harris' review of "Shadowplayers: The Rise & Fall of Factory Records" in the paper today:

"Real ideological oomph"; "driven, brilliantly idealistic people, convinced that music and its attendant culture could somehow embody a better kind of society"; "enterprise born of New Left philosophy and punk zeal"; "the cultural destruction fomented by Thatcherism"; "misfits who aimed to somehow kick down the wall separating art and everyday life".

Later there's a wry allusion to "the impossibility of squaring counter-cultural ways with the more banal stuff of profit and loss", but there's no mention of corporate sponsorship, ideologically soiling yourself in public, or - more pertinently - wilfully diluting the brand to your own fucking detriment.

Go figure.

Clayhead Liberation Faction wrote: A few choice snippets from John Harris' review of "Shadowplayers: The Rise & Fall of Factory Records" in the paper today:

"Real ideological oomph"; "driven, brilliantly idealistic people, convinced that music and its attendant culture could somehow embody a better kind of society"; "enterprise born of New Left philosophy and punk zeal"; "the cultural destruction fomented by Thatcherism"; "misfits who aimed to somehow kick down the wall separating art and everyday life".

Later there's a wry allusion to "the impossibility of squaring counter-cultural ways with the more banal stuff of profit and loss", but there's no mention of corporate sponsorship, ideologically soiling yourself in public, or - more pertinently - wilfully diluting the brand to your own fucking detriment.

Go figure.

What paper Martin? Wouldnt mind reading the full thing for a laugh.

You favourite rag, Liam:

The Gruaniad

There have been some urm 'interesting' comments on this topic 2 say the least.i think clayheads about being on the blob,discharge and nasal hair ranks as the most disgusting on this thread. Bleeuugh!

Is it really that much effort to type "to" rather than "2"?

Seriously now. This board has standards, albeit lax ones, but standards nonetheless.

Joanne Bailey wrote: There have been some urm 'interesting' comments on this topic 2 say the least.i think clayheads about being on the blob,discharge and nasal hair ranks as the most disgusting on this thread. Bleeuugh!

Do you read anything other this thread? Those comments were Championship quality by Martins standards.

to the teacher - I texted that response hence why I used 2!

Yes James I do read other threads!

Joanne Bailey wrote: There have been some urm 'interesting' comments on this topic 2 say the least.i think clayheads about being on the blob,discharge and nasal hair ranks as the most disgusting on this thread. Bleeuugh!

We're just following in NO's stead.

The Teacher wrote: A guitar fretboard made from the hacienda dancefloor?

ladies and gentlemen, we have reached a new low. :barf:

Come on then Jack, or Fac 51 The Hacienda; whats the justification for this? How is this item of any artistic value? And from your little list Jack, how many of them have sunk this low?

Was the floor made from camphor wood,per chance? Y'know,sometimes it's not the outward value.....