In relation to the £600 thing, along with everything else in recent years, when the cynical money grabbing began.
So many different points, so many attempts at getting peoples money...
Dates
· UTC
When did the Hooky Cash in start?
Archived261 replies · 14,276 views
This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.
well, by the mans reckoning everyone who visited the Hacienda cost him , new order £10 , so its a bit like a tax rebate thing init.
music for pleasure. music for profit
1997 when he bought up rights to everything hacienda(c).
easy to appreciate why everyone else would just want to walk away, with the prospect of tiny royalty cheques from endless dance compilations.
johnny james wrote: The big questions is: When will it stop?
Maybe the next time Hooky drives down the Stockport Road towards leafy Cheshire someone will be lurking with malevolent intent in the shade of a grass knoll? Many people are out for his blood, y'know. There's many around here who still haven't forgiven him for carrying on after Ian's little faux pas when hanging out his y-fronts. And as for "WIM"....I hear the Corby contingent are pretty good with an air rifle.....
I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.
Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.
Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.
Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.
Spot on with that mate, totally agree with you, but I know some people think he should still live in a terraced house in Salford, that he's sold out etc. He's just trying to get a bit of money back, he (and the rest of the band, and THW) lost a lot of money.
it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.
Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.
As for the £6k bass guitar book packages, what happened to all that "we made history, not money" stuff?
Just not cool at all.
Does he really need to be involved with stuff like this?
I'm sure Hooky is more than comfortable financially compared to us lot and deservedly so for being part of the magic.
I cant really accept this de-dum he lost money in the old days stuff...yes cos New Order lived like kings and did whatever they wanted without responsibility!
These latter day money grabbing ego stroking schemes sully the legacy for some of us who still give a shit.
We had the £40 a ticket tour where blantantly not giving a fuck. The one off (and now fully fledged touring band) The Light playing Unknown Pleasures in its entirity. My favourite is selling the Hacienda dancefloor. I can juse see certain people* going down B&Q, getting some siilar material, getting Hooky to sign it, and then flogging it off. Well, something similar happened with The Berlin Wall...
Not that I think this is happening. But I do wonder, if your turn the Hacienda into a block of flat, how do you get the dancefloor to chop off?
I suppose a somewhat tenuous comparison would be Tony Blair. His book comes out at the end of the month. But could you imagine if he started selling off bits of his desk?
Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.
You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...
Jed Stephens wrote:
Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.
Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.
it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.
Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?
The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.
After all is said and done it is nice to be able to put out something in limited quantities that will in the future be very sought after. There has got to be a monetary motivation for this but more importantly putting out a very nice item for the fans, albeit well off ones! There is a demand for items like this in the Factory/New Order catalogue - a highly collectible musical phenomenon. I would love a copy but I am struggling with my conscience at the moment...
Hooky is a nostalgic guy and is also very proud of his heritage. Rightly so. :)
FYI: The vinyl cost will be around the £3-4 per unit to manufacture.
Dunno about the rest of the package though, and I'm never likely to even see one since I won't be buying. I've got enough crap as it is.
Gene wrote:
Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.
You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...
Yes I have made an assumption here agreed but I think the price tag and exclusive nature of this book/record does prevent a future alternative release...surely the book company have factored that into any contract to make this thing appealing?
I will stand corrected though and would be very pleased if a cd only release was imminent for us proles to buy...not holding me breath though!
Gene wrote:
Tock wrote: Releasing exclusive tunes within a book package that most of us saddo long term fans probably do want but cannot possibly afford is not ok to me.
You're assuming they'll never ever be released on any other format in the future. Of course they will, and then the Ultra-Saddo fans will buy that aswell, but fuck 'em if they're that stupid. Bide your time...
Given that other artists who've released stuff this way (e.g. George Harrison, Paul Weller, etc) haven't (thus far) released all the songs by other methods, I think it's unlikely that they'll be released on any other format in the future...
Personally, if I had money to throw away, I would buy the book (probably not the super deluxe one with the guitar, but definitely the "cheaper" one)... Unfortunately, I don't (and probably won't ever have), so will have to go without... And the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...
The Teacher wrote:
Jed Stephens wrote:
Gene wrote: I think some of the above is a bit harsh. Firstly, due to the nature of the product (and the price) there wont be so many sold he can afford a mansion in Dubai from the royalties anyway. Secondly, whichever field of work you inhabit, if someone came to you and offered you a bit of a bunce for doing not much extra how many of us would say 'No'? Lastly, its well documented how members of New Order didnt really get the financial rewards other bands got during the same time, dont begrudge the fella trying to make up a bit of what he missed out on.
Am I buying it? Am I fuck! 600 notes? Never in this lifetime.
it's not selling out or cashing in, if you don't want it, don't buy it, some people will, it's their choice.
Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?
The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.
Total sales of the run would be £160,000. this then has to pay not just Hooky, but 50% royalties due to the writer, however that was decided amonst the band we're unlikely to ever know, but I'm sure bernard would get a large portion of it, the out of the remaining 50% hooky has to pay his management and any session musicians involved, studio staff, i.e. recording engineers, mix engineers, producer, then mastering, production and marketing and studio time, I'd say the proffit would be about 20,000.
Yes it's more than a lot of people on here earn in a year, but how many can play an instrument like that and write music like that.
johnny james wrote: FYI: The vinyl cost will be around the £3-4 per unit to manufacture.
Quoting a figure like that is like the people who justify stealing (i.e. illegal downloading) on the production cost of the medium, not taking into account any of the above.
£20,000 profit over £160,000??
I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I would wager that it would be a LOT higher than that...
Okay, recording/mastering/etc - can be done cheaply at home.
Management? I doubt whether they'd be involved in a project like this...
Session musicians? Depends what the other three tracks sound like... Certainly, "The Happy One" is an instrumental...
Writing royalties: I'm presuming that if such an agreement with writing royalties survives for a particular song, then he would choose those that are in favour of him and not the rest of the band? Otherwise...
Nick King wrote: £20,000 profit over £160,000??
I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I would wager that it would be a LOT higher than that...
Okay, recording/mastering/etc - can be done cheaply at home.
Management? I doubt whether they'd be involved in a project like this...
Session musicians? Depends what the other three tracks sound like... Certainly, "The Happy One" is an instrumental...
Writing royalties: I'm presuming that if such an agreement with writing royalties survives for a particular song, then he would choose those that are in favour of him and not the rest of the band? Otherwise...
Agreed. Bet the conversation involved Hooky saying 'if I can clear £100k..... then fuck 'em, who cares'.
Silly sod might have made more if he'd released his album on I tunes a couple of years earlier and not made such a song and dance about it. He might even have some respect left too, if the album was actually any good. 
Jed Stephens wrote: Total sales of the run would be £160,000. this then has to pay not just Hooky, but 50% royalties due to the writer, however that was decided amonst the band we're unlikely to ever know, but I'm sure bernard would get a large portion of it, the out of the remaining 50% hooky has to pay his management and any session musicians involved, studio staff, i.e. recording engineers, mix engineers, producer, then mastering, production and marketing and studio time, I'd say the proffit would be about 20,000.
As Nick said...
It's doubtful there were more than two or three people involved in this. Man Ray itself is allegedly just Hooky and that guy Phil who does programming and other instruments. I would imagine it was recorded in a similar setup although am open to being corrected. I somehow don't think Hooky checked himself into an expensive studio and called upon a small army of engineers and mixers. To keep it cost effective something like this would have to have been done with as few people as possible.
Plus as JJ pointed out in another thread Bernard and the rest of the band would only get a small percentage fee due to it being covers.
I'm still not seeing this huge deficit in Hooky's profit margin you're trying to point out, Jed.
Personally, I won't be buying it. It's at least £500 too rich for myself as a hardcore-ish collector plus I'm of the opinion that items deliberately marketed as collectables end up being the least collectable. I'm far more interested in hunting down that elusive Technique DAT rather than forking out for a bunch of cover versions and a book I've already got (& autographed).
Royalties from record sales is typically 50% writer, 50% performer, the writer in this case being the band, how they split that is decided amonsgt themselves.
The performer will then have to pay for everything else involved, yes these days it's possible for someone to knock something of a reasonable standard out at home, but the vast majority of proffesional releases are done through a proper studio and mastering studio, these are very expensive, and I should think that at least 10 people were involved, all on a decent hourly rate.
If you think a performer of a song gets 50% of the gross sale then you are completely and utterly wrong.
I'm not saying that I would buy the product, even if I could afford it, or that I agree with him releasing covers of earlier NO songs, I'd rather hear new material. I'm just pointing out that the proffit in music for the performer is vastly less than people realise, which is why some performers are getting very pissed off at people stealnig their work and also why the music industry is dying.
Nick King wrote: the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...
There is also the so far unmentioned possibility that the tracks on this thing may be a bag of shit. Side projects have never been quite as good as the real thing so Im not convinced we're missing out on all that much.
Someone will 'torrent' it at some point like they always do anyway.
Gene wrote:
Nick King wrote: the only track I'd really want to hear is what he's done with "The Happy One"...
Someone will 'torrent' it at some point like they always do anyway.
Is this commodity (The EP) so rare that it could not be reproduced? Did it cost anywhere near, say £300 (working on a simple 50% to produce, 50% profit basis)?
The answer to those questions is no. Therefore, its cashing in by exploiting fans into paying for soemthing which in reality is worth nowhere near it is being sold for.
My statement about unit prices was really in answer to this.
The pricing of this set of editions is in no way related to the cost to produce them, it is based purely on making the biggest return on the least copies. Based on the bet that enough 'fans' will be willing to pay the sums requested because of the deliberately limited nature of the product and the exclusivity of what you're getting.
Thanks to the fact that you can't make a decent return selling music to a mass-market anymore (because no one pays for music anymore) this is the future method of getting a return. A few people paying vastly over the odds for a limited edition.
Yes, I suppose it could be called a rip-off but then even, say, Radiohead's £50 Discbox was overpriced with regard to cost to manufacture. It's all about the calculated return if you sell all copies of whatever run you do.
Jed Stephens wrote: I'm not saying that I would buy the product, even if I could afford it, or that I agree with him releasing covers of earlier NO songs, I'd rather hear new material. I'm just pointing out that the proffit in music for the performer is vastly less than people realise, which is why some performers are getting very pissed off at people stealnig their work and also why the music industry is dying.
Yeah but by your logic he's not making any money out of this... so how does him releasing a £600 quid "product" off-set the money he's supposedly losing if he recorded new material and put it out? I don't see the link between this "generously priced" Hac thing and music piracy. They're two unrelated things aren't they?
I've read Hooky's opinions on downloading and I don't really agree with some of them. I think the "industry" dealt with illegal downloading in the worst way possible, was slow to catch on to modern music selling techniques and didn't help themselves by flogging sub-standard products to us in the first place I.e.
- The NO reissues were defective.
- The Singles compilation was distorted to f*ck.
- Even Retro back in the day was just a compilation of stuff we already had.
When you take that into consideration it's no massive shock that some fans took matters into their own hands and stuff like the Recycle blog started appearing.
Of course one could say that this is another business model---selling smaller quantities of higher priced things for a profit, instead of selling lower priced things and expecting to make a profit by selling a lot of it. (I'm talking about the £600 set by the way).
However, if the prices are too set too high, or if many people don't find the product appealing, then you might not get as high as a profit than what you expected.
I don't really know anyone who could afford to spend £600 on that vinyl/book set today, but who knows?
Maybe there's someone out there. 
That said, people can sell and buy whatever they want IMO.
The Teacher wrote: I still want to know how the hacienda dancefloor was retrieved.
I don't know fuck all about building, Liam, but I guess they'll have dug it up before they started re-building on the site - just as they'll have removed the bar, the toilets, the balcony etc etc.
Whether it's 'ethically correct' to start selling this stuff off piece by piece is another question entirely.
