Gazette: So many bands have said “I’ll never, ever, ever get back together,” and then 10 years on they do. Would you never say never in terms of going back?
Hook: Call me in 10 years. (Laughs) You know, I respect Bernard and Stephen very, very much as musicians. In all honesty, Gillian (Gilbert) was never a great musician; she didn’t really add a lot. But Stephen and Bernard – Bernard helped make me the man I am, and gave me the career and the life I’ve got, and Stephen helped me become the man I am and gave me the career and the life I’ve got. Even if we don’t get on, I do respect that they are fantastic musicians, and together we changed the world not once, but twice, then three times with the Hacienda, and four times with Factory Records, and there aren’t many bands that can say that. So you do have something going back very, very deeply and very strongly. To be honest with you, if we could sort our differences out and get on an even footing, I’d love to play with them again.
MONTREAL - Ex-Joy Division/New Order bassist Peter Hook has returned to Joy Division’s catalogue, touring with complete performances of the post-punk legends’ albums. He’ll perform the group’s 1979 landmark debut album Unknown Pleasures on Sunday, Sept. 25 at Club Soda (1225 St. Laurent Blvd.) with his band the Light, as part of Pop Montreal. Tickets cost $30; call 514-286-1010 or order at clubsoda.ca.
The Gazette’s Jordan Zivitz recently spoke to Hook about his decision to play Joy Division’s songs again. Here’s a transcript of the interview.
Gazette: For quite a while after Joy Division stopped, it seemed you didn’t want to even talk about the band. When did you feel like it was okay to celebrate Joy Division again?
Peter Hook: Because we’d always been so focused on New Order, I think Joy Division became a source of curiosity to us. We never really understood people’s fascination with it, because we detached ourselves from it. As soon as Ian (Curtis) died we literally just put the whole thing away and didn’t refer to it for a long, long time. The turning point for me was when New Order split up. When New Order split, you got to look at things from arm’s length. You really were able to judge what you were doing, and what you’d done, and then it became sad to me that we’d not really done anything with Joy Division. New Order only played two Joy Division sets. We played one for a Manchester Council benefit and one as New Order at Wembley. Bernard (Sumner) said it made him miserable. So we never did it again, which I thought was a great shame. I mean, I appreciated his idea, because Joy Division’s music is a lot different to New Order. New Order is lighter, a bit more positive, a bit more popular, and Joy Division’s was intense, thick, heavy. So I do appreciate the difference, although I didn’t find that Joy Division made me miserable. And what happened was four years after I finished with New Order …
Gazette: You’re talking the first breakup, or the second breakup?
Hook: The second breakup. 2006. But in 2010, it was the 30th anniversary of Ian (Curtis)’s death, and I was very happy because Macclesfield at last and Manchester planned something to celebrate his life. And both of those things that were planned fell through. And I was really upset, because I was involved in both. I thought it was a great idea, and I thought, “Well, why don’t I celebrate it on my own?” Know what I mean? I’ve not had a relationship with Bernard since we split up in 2006. Or Stephen (Morris). I managed to keep a relationship with Stephen, but that went by the by as well. So I have no relationship with them whatsoever. And I thought, “No, let’s do something.” I’ve got my own club in Manchester, the Factory, so I thought I’ll do something there. But I wasn’t sure what. Then I read an article by (Primal Scream singer) Bobby Gillespie where he was talking about Screamadelica – he felt the group had underestimated the album and should have celebrated it more. I thought, “Oh, God, that’s like Unknown Pleasures.” Then it went, “Bing! That’s it – I’ll play Unknown Pleasures.” And that was the idea. We played Unknown Pleasures, and did a Joy Division memorabilia exhibition in my club upstairs, to celebrate his life.
Gazette: I read quite a bit about that show and was a little surprised at the level of animosity directed at you for it …
Hook: (Laughs) I’m still getting it, mate! I’m still getting it. (Laughs)
Gazette: Were you prepared for some blowback from it, even if, like you said, you just intended it to be a celebration instead of a cash-in?
Hook: It was meant to be a celebration, and if we all left our cash-ins for 30 years, we wouldn’t be very good at cashing in, would we? If we’d done it six months after Joy Division ended, then people rightly could have said it was cashing in. Thirty years after the group ended, it’s really hard to believe you could call that cashing in. But no, I was shocked, actually. And the thing is, I never envisioned singing. I wanted other people to sing; I wanted to play bass. But the singers were really scared off by the animosity on the Internet – all those keyboard terrorists really scared them off, so I really ended up having no option. If I wanted to do it, I had to sing it on my own. I mean, I was lucky, really, because my son plays bass. I got my son in to play bass, which made me very happy. He’s the closest thing to me in the world. And so I was happy that that worked out. And at first I was very scared doing the vocals; I didn’t enjoy it. But over the months, as people’s reactions got better, I’ve grown to really enjoy it. I mean, it’s quite funny – if you look at websites now, there’s still a lot of criticism, but the ones that criticize tend to be the ones that haven’t seen you. The ones that are with you have seen you. They appreciate that you do it with respect. You do it with professionalism and you do it with passion. And it’s an odd thing, because to me it’s a great compliment that I can still play music that I wrote and love at my age. After being a musician for 34 years. Not many of us manage to get our careers to last that long. So I hate to disillusion all those keyboard terrorists, but I’m really enjoying it.
Gazette: At what point did you know this would be something that would go on for more than one show?
Hook: The one night in Manchester sold out immediately, and then we put another on. And then I got an offer to play in a place called Clermont-Ferrand in France. Clermont-Ferrand has been twinned with my city and Salford, and the mayor, when he found out I was playing in Clermont-Ferrand, gave me the freedom of the city. (Laughs) And then, after those three gigs, there were a lot of promoters that asked if we wanted to play it. And it came from there, really. I’ve been very, very surprised at the level of interest. The biggest surprise has been the audience, because I thought it would be full of fat old blokes like me. But it’s not. The audience is very young, from 16 upwards, and wow – what a compliment that young people can still relate to your music. That really is a compliment to Bernard, Stephen, Ian and myself for writing music that really is timeless.
Gazette: I guess that goes back to what you were saying about how you underestimated Unknown Pleasures. When I was in high school in the late ’80s, early ’90s, Joy Division was pretty big then, too, and I think they’re one of those bands where if you go to any high school, you’ll see pockets of lone-wolf kids listening to your albums.
Hook: I’ve got a wonderful story about high school. My daughter went to high school – she’s 26 now, my daughter – and when she went, they’re in dorms, and they’re helping each other unpack, there’s eight girls in a dorm, and she was helping this Irish girl unpack, and this Irish girl said, “Oh, right, I’ll just put my posters up on the wall,” and she got a poster out of Unknown Pleasures and stuck it on the wall. And my daughter went, “Oh, my dad was in that band!” And the Irish girl went, “What?” and burst out crying. (Laughs) My daughter phoned me up and said, “Why did she do that, Dad?” Because my daughter doesn’t like our music. She’s a proper pop-head. And she was just amazed. And I suppose you do underestimate the power that the music and Ian’s unfortunate demise can have on people, because when you’re young and you’re confused and you don’t know what you want to do in the world and you’re very angsty about everything, certain things, like music, you find comforting, don’t you? That’s why there’s so many goths around. Joy Division sort of fit in that category. They’re very powerful – it’s something, thanks to Martin Hannett’s production, that you can immerse in. You can lose yourself in Joy Division’s music, and that’s why when I came back to do it this time, I was really very careful to incorporate all the elements that Martin Hannett gave us. When we were Joy Division, we ignored him – we wouldn’t have anything to do with him, because we felt Martin slaughtered Unknown Pleasures. He did a great job on Closer, but we never got to play Closer, because we finished. So really, the band live didn’t sound anything like the band in the studio. But it’s taken me many years to appreciate what a genius the guy was. So I’m very careful now to give the people the sound they know and love, which is Martin Hannett’s production.
Gazette: I’ve seen footage of Joy Division performing, and I imagine that you’re also keeping some of that aggressive edge?
Hook: Well, the passion is very easy for me. I didn’t think it would be this easy, actually. I play my bass lines as hard and as well as I can, and to grab hold of Ian and then to find a way of doing that so it feels right, it has been very, very comforting, actually. I was very worried about fitting in that role, and it’s tough, and it’s been hard for me to relax in that role, but I’m very happy now with what I’ve started to feel. I mean, now we’re doing Closer as well, and I’m not sure what we’re going to do next year, because that’s when you’re in danger of becoming a tribute band or something. I had the concept; the concept was to play the two records. What we are going to do next year is difficult. Are we going to play the two records together? (Laughs) And I don’t know what we’re going to do the year after that.
Gazette: Would you play Still?
Hook: Well, we play nearly every Joy Division track now. So Still, the only four that we haven’t played are Something Must Break, Exercise One, Walked in Line and The Kill, I think it is. So with things like Ice Age and These Days and Autosuggestion, we play all the tracks – and we play the tracks chronologically. I started with the first track Joy Division did, At a Later Date, and then you finish with Transmission for Unknown Pleasures, and then you start with the Earcom sampler, Dead Souls, Atmosphere, then Closer, so we’re playing most of the songs on Still now. It’s a difficult one, though, because I’m enjoying it so much I’m starting to feel guilty. Am I milking it? Unfortunately, the level I’m playing now, there isn’t that much money. It’s not like I’ve got to sweep the street, and I’m certainly not going to be parking your Bentley anytime soon, but I’m glad to still have a career and I’m glad to play something that I love. But it is an odd thing. It’s a funny position to be in, to be honest.
Gazette: I’ve read in interviews – and I couldn’t tell whether you were joking – that you would go on to do the New Order albums …
Hook: It wasn’t a joke. I was thinking it would be nice to play every song I’ve ever written before I retire. And on those early New Order albums, there are some fantastic tunes that Bernard would not play while we were New Order. We never played anything off Movement, we only played KW1 (Your Silent Face) off of Power, Corruption and Lies – so many great tracks that we didn’t play.
Gazette: Why was that?
Hook: Because he didn’t want to play them. You can’t make your lead singer do something he doesn’t want to do.
Gazette: Why didn’t he feel connected to those songs?
Hook: I have no idea. He didn’t elaborate. He just went, “I don’t like them. I’m not playing them.” All the early stuff, he’d say, “It’s too rocky. I don’t like it.” It was like that. Just a total cut-off. I mean, the fact that he’s gone off and got what he considers to be New Order back together again, Christ – because I bet you that he’s not going to play anything off Movement, or Power, Corruption and Lies apart from KW1, or nothing off Low-Life. I mean, it was those songs where I thought we have such great tunes, and he just would not bloody play them! So I will be waiting with bated breath to see what he plays with New Order. Because in Bad Lieutenant he was playing New Order, and he was playing the normal New Order – ones that we’d played. So there was nothing new in it. He didn’t do anything different to how New Order was when we were New Order, you know what I mean? So it’ll be very interesting to see what he does. But yeah, I would like to play New Order. I would like to play Movement next. I don’t know whether you’d get around the world with Movement the way I have with Unknown Pleasures, but for my pleasure – no pun intended – it would be nice to do Movement, and go on to do Power, Corruption and Lies. As long as there’s an audience there – a few people – I can do it at the Factory, because it’s my club! (Laughs) Even if there’s nobody there, I can still do it, as long as I pay my musicians. I can do whatever I want. So yeah, the answer is probably yes. Maybe next year on May 18, to celebrate Ian’s life, and we do them as charity gigs – we do them for Mind, which is a mental health charity; we also do it for a young boy who got kidnapped a long time ago, to help his family, so it equals it out to me. You’re doing something for yourself selfishly, but you’re also helping two really good causes. So yeah, I’d like to carry on helping them. So f--- it – I’ll do New Order.
Gazette: Since you brought it up, I have to ask about it and then I’ll move on: Did the reformation announcement from New Order catch you as off-guard as it caught everyone else?
Hook: Yes, I knew nothing about it at all. And I think that that’s the sad part of it. There’s also been a lot of problems in our business relationship that they engineered to enable them to go out as New Order, which has not helped and came as a shock to me, and I’m having to deal with it now, which is not very pleasant. So if you want to say, it’s as acrimonious now as when we split up in 2006. It’s a very, very dirty trick and they’ve done some dirty, dirty stuff to get the freedom to do this.
Gazette: So many bands have said “I’ll never, ever, ever get back together,” and then 10 years on they do. Would you never say never in terms of going back?
Hook: Call me in 10 years. (Laughs) You know, I respect Bernard and Stephen very, very much as musicians. In all honesty, Gillian (Gilbert) was never a great musician; she didn’t really add a lot. But Stephen and Bernard – Bernard helped make me the man I am, and gave me the career and the life I’ve got, and Stephen helped me become the man I am and gave me the career and the life I’ve got. Even if we don’t get on, I do respect that they are fantastic musicians, and together we changed the world not once, but twice, then three times with the Hacienda, and four times with Factory Records, and there aren’t many bands that can say that. So you do have something going back very, very deeply and very strongly. To be honest with you, if we could sort our differences out and get on an even footing, I’d love to play with them again.
Gazette: I’ll move on to what you’re actually here to talk about, and thanks for indulging me with that …
Hook: (Laughs) Don’t worry, mate. It’s life, isn’t it? And it’s very, very interesting the way that they’ve done it. I have to say, a little bit too interesting for me. Let’s put it that way.
Gazette: You said something a little while ago that I’d like to get back to: You were talking about the audience for Joy Division always renewing itself, and you mentioned not only the music, but the way in which Ian died. I’m wondering how you feel about the cult that’s built up around him, and whether you think some of Joy Division’s fans are fans for the wrong reasons.
Hook: I’m very close to the whole thing, so I find it hard to revel in that part of it. I’m a fan of Joy Division’s music; I’m not a fan of the way Ian died. That’s the bit I hate about Joy Division. So it’s very difficult for me to comment on it. I can see the fatalism, and I can see that rock ’n’ roll myth that you see in Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison – there are a lot of people that have lived up to the hype. But each person is different, aren’t they? Some individuals revel in that and some don’t. I do appreciate it, because one thing Ian’s got going for him is that he’s frozen in time. Me, Bernard and Stephen look like 55-year-old blokes, but he’s still 23. So it’s quite odd. And maybe that’s why he appeals to young kids – because he’s still young. He’s stayed exactly as he was. He’s frozen in time. So I suppose in a way, whereas it would be difficult for those younger audiences to relate to 55-year-old blokes, it’s quite easy for them to relate to somebody like Ian, because he looks just like them. So I don’t know, really. But I’m not a great fan of that cult. It’s a strange way of looking at music to me.
Gazette: Can you understand what these people see in the connection between Ian’s work and his death, though? Some of those lyrics have a lot of poignancy in hindsight …
Hook: After concentrating on them to sing them, I can. Before, I’d never really concentrated on the lyrics. I knew some of them were very self-revealing, self-examining, but I’d never concentrated on them. And I got a bit of a shock, to be honest with you, when I had to concentrate on them. Because to me, as the bass player, and as a group member, Ian just delivered, you know what I mean? One hundred per cent. I didn’t have to hear what he was singing; the very fact that I could see what he was saying and how he was saying it was enough for me. I knew he was going for it, and I knew the guy was a genius and I knew he really delivered and kept his end up of the group. So it wasn’t important to me, every word – it was the overall feel of Ian that I loved. Even when he was sick, he still delivered. He really worked hard to never let you down. And that was one of his problems, really, because you couldn’t really tell how he was feeling. He went out of his way to make you feel that everything was okay. He hid it really well, and that was his problem – I think he was in f---ing denial. And the last thing he wanted to do was upset you. So he just fought it and fought it and fought it until it got too much for him. And it is very sad, because in many ways when you look at the lyrics, the troubles he was having are documented, aren’t they? Love Will Tear Us Apart – God, would I like to be Ian’s wife knowing he’d written a song about me like that? No. F--- that. Love Will Tear Us Apart sounds like a pop song, but if somebody said those lyrics about you, you’d be devastated! It’s horrible. Oh, God.
Gazette: When you’re singing these songs, do you feel like you’re channelling what Ian might have been feeling when he was singing them, or do you have a certain distance?
Hook: The only criteria I can put on getting the music across is you do it seriously, you do it as well as you can do it, you practise it until your hands drop off and your voice is hoarse, you give it justice, respect – because I love that music, and I’m not kidding. If I only got to play it in my backyard once, I’d do it, because those songs are fantastic, even if I say so myself. It’s a pleasure to do this. But it is hard to get across, and my worst critic, actually, is my son. And my best critic is my son. Because he listens, and if he doesn’t like it and it’s not good, he’ll tell you straight away. He’ll just go, “Dad, forget it. Walk away.” While we’ve been doing this stuff, he’s gotten very good at what he’s doing and I think the band have gotten very good. But you’re not Joy Division – you’re a member of Joy Division trying to pay respect. And the thing is, what I’ve noticed is that the audience seems to appreciate it, and that’s kept us going.
Gazette: And the fact that you haven’t been trying to pass this off as Joy Division must help. It’s not as if you’re trying to pretend you’re something you’re not.
Hook: No, we are not Joy Division, and that’s what breaks my heart about New Order. Trying to pretend you’re New Order – you should at least have the decency to say you’re going to be different. I could appreciate that. I mean, Bernard hasn’t talked about it yet, funnily enough, or I’ve not seen him talk about it yet, so I don’t know what his attitude or his answers to people are going to be, but I’ve been very, very flattered, actually, looking at all the Google alerts for the news on it, because nearly every one of them said “New Order reform without Peter Hook.” I got f---ing equal billing with New Order. (Laughs) That was very flattering. But you know, the only thing I wanted when I was in New Order was for them to play live. And in a way I’m happy that they’re playing live, because it’s all I ever wanted. And I think that over five years I’ve got enough distance from it to say, well, if they want to do it and if they want to do it as New Order, I’m happy to let them. And good luck to them! It’s just the way they’ve gone about it as regards to me has been really badly handled. It’s very sly, what they’ve done. It’s not on. Reforming and going off and playing the stuff – good luck. But don’t do what they’ve done. I wouldn’t do it to anybody, even my worst bloody enemy – and I was in a group with some of my worst enemies. Just because the group finishes doesn’t mean you don’t have anything to do with each other. Your business affairs are still very, very intertwined forever. I still work with Ian’s widow. I still work with (manager) Rob Gretton’s widow in business. You don’t part and walk away. You’re stuck together.
Gazette: If it wasn’t for Ian’s death, how long do you think Joy Division could have gone on?
Hook: I think musically, Ian would have been singing with New Order. Blue Monday – without a doubt he would have been singing Blue Monday. Because the music was progressing very much towards that. Bernard’s interest in electronics and Stephen’s interest in electronics was unstoppable, so that would have happened. As to how long the group would have bloody lasted, well, you’d like to think that U2 took the mantle of Joy Division. So if U2 went on to be huge … There’s a story about Bono phoning up (music mogul) Tony Wilson and saying, “Don’t worry – I know Ian’s dead, but I’m going to carry on where he left off.” Tony Wilson told me that was a true story, that Bono did phone him up and say that. I was like, f--- me. So we could have been as big as U2! (Laughs)
I think he may have created another difference to sort out!
Silly reason though, I know, but I cannot get anything else "negative" from Gillian, unless there was some stuff exchanged between them both in person.