Skip to content

Merchandise at The Light shows ... is it poor taste?

Archived

68 replies · 4,006 views

This is an archived legacy thread. Replies are closed, but the discussion is preserved.

This guy says it is

Judging by the stories I've heard from people who've worked with Peter Hook and interviews with him I've read, the guy is about as awful at being a person as he is amazing at writing bass lines—i.e., he is apparently pretty much a shitty dude. So my first reaction to hearing that Hook was embarking on a tour playing songs by Joy Division with a band that includes neither of his former Joy Division bandmates—who recently reached some sort of breaking point after several decades of putting up with him and finally booted him out of New Order—was to mentally roll my eyes and make barfing motions. Earlier today, after I remembered that Hook's tour desecrating Ian Curtis's memory makes its Chicago appearance tonight at the Metro, I tried to look at it again from his side. Your old band, which ended tragically with the death of a friend and maybe never reached its true potential, becomes 20-some years after the fact one of the single most important influences on an entire decade's worth of new music—and suddenly far more popular than it's ever been. The temptation must be insane to make a quick swoop around America collecting what are basically piles of money waiting to be picked up. You could forgive somebody, especially one personally estranged from the former members of the group, for just saying "fuck it" and going for the payday regardless of how tasteless it might seem from the outside. I almost empathized.

Then I saw the above photo of Hook's Joy Division merch (via the Metro's Instagram page) and now I'm actually making barf motions IRL just to work out some of how grossed out I am by Peter Hook. It's one thing for him to launch his own traveling mini mall of Joy Division T-shirts, but design-wise these things are basically explosive diarrhea all over the band's impeccable aesthetic reputation. The lack of thought, feeling, or effort that went into the designs—I'm assuming the ones playing on the "Mind the Gap" sign are there somewhere out of frame—is negligent enough to almost qualify as a malicious attack on the band's legacy. Peter Saville is probably spinning in his . . . well, not in his grave, since he's not dead, but maybe in some sort of staggeringly tastefully appointed condo somewhere.

The merchandise picture is in the link. What say you?

0 likes

I personally thought it was weak they had better t-shirts the last time they came for the UP tour, they had better t-shirts.

0 likes

About everything Hooky has done recently has been distateful, the T-shirts are the least of his worries.

Peter Hook ... is about as awful at being a person as he is amazing at writing bass lines—i.e., he is apparently pretty much a shitty dude.

You know, I've admired Hooky for years and loved him as a bassist and a musician. But what with all the recent Gillian bashing and other unsavoury antics I'm afraid I'm starting to believe this is true. I think we've been seeing Hooky's true character revealed in recent months

0 likes

I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

0 likes

I bought one of the t-shirts hence that means I have poor taste. Big union jack on the front, manchester england underneath and the peterhook/celebration of joydivision/light on the top back.

Meh. I like it. :D

0 likes

Vince Se wrote: I bought one of the t-shirts hence that means I have poor taste. Big union jack on the front, manchester england underneath and the peterhook/celebration of joydivision/light on the top back.

Meh. I like it. :D

Fair enough, I didn't,t realise they mentioned the light, I thought they were simply joy division t shirts

0 likes

The writer also got his facts wrong. Hook wasn't booted out, he left.

0 likes

His legacy, more than entitled to make some money out of it. The amount of kids going 'round with Unknown Pleasures T-shirts over here is unreal & that can't be a bad thing.

0 likes

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

0 likes

Jesus christ, mellow out. Poor taste, not at all. I like the shirt, I bought one. The tour, I saw both in Boston. (See my review) After reflecting on this whole thing, I've come to realize that shame on the rest of the band for not touring their music(NO that is). Their set-lists neglected so many songs. Between Barney's whining and Stephen's bored look, I say Congrats to Hooky for taking it on the road and kicking ass. Cheers Hooky, F'em all and play.

0 likes

I couldn't decide between the Union Jack shirt and the LWTUA shirt. Went with LWTUA, but now I think I should have just gotten both.

0 likes

Those business class tickets aren't gonna pay themselves.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote:

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

Not exactly the same thing, seeing as he left the band of his own volition. If the other 3(ish) are still legally NO, then surely its their right to sell NO merch? As far as I can tell, Hooky is the only one who regards his departure as a split...

0 likes

What a prick of a reviewer. He'd made his mind up before he started. Oooh, a musician who's headstrong. Shouldnt be allowed. Fuck off and listen to Aled Jones or One Direction if the real worlds too much for you.

I know Hooky-bashing is the current thing but we're scraping the barrel if frigging T-shirts are the problem now.

0 likes

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

Not exactly the same thing, seeing as he left the band of his own volition. If the other 3(ish) are still legally NO, then surely its their right to sell NO merch? As far as I can tell, Hooky is the only one who regards his departure as a split...

Yes that's what I was saying.

0 likes

The designs look like cheap £5 knock off you can buy from stalls in Camden Market. Shame.

0 likes

I bought the UP black t-shirt but would love a England + Joy Division one :clap:

I am wearing it on my avatar :evil4:

0 likes

Poor taste is wearing a band tee shirt past the age of 19 isn't it, no?:laugh:

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote:

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

Not exactly the same thing, seeing as he left the band of his own volition. If the other 3(ish) are still legally NO, then surely its their right to sell NO merch? As far as I can tell, Hooky is the only one who regards his departure as a split...

Yes that's what I was saying.

OK, but I mean that NO are a current, ongoing concern which Hooky left. He's not in the band anymore, so it makes sense he gets nothing from NO merchandise now. JD was different, it was an abandoned entity after Ian's passing. Is Hooky entitled to profit solely from the sale of JD merch at the expense of the surviving members of JD (or in Ian's cae, his estate)? I wouldn't have thought so, although legality and morality are different things...

0 likes

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

Not exactly the same thing, seeing as he left the band of his own volition. If the other 3(ish) are still legally NO, then surely its their right to sell NO merch? As far as I can tell, Hooky is the only one who regards his departure as a split...

Yes that's what I was saying.

OK, but I mean that NO are a current, ongoing concern which Hooky left. He's not in the band anymore, so it makes sense he gets nothing from NO merchandise now. JD was different, it was an abandoned entity after Ian's passing. Is Hooky entitled to profit solely from the sale of JD merch at the expense of the surviving members of JD (or in Ian's cae, his estate)? I wouldn't have thought so, although legality and morality are different things...

Non audio merchandise should in no way demand royalties from those not performing at that particular gig. If Hooky was selling audio recorded by JD then of course B & S should receive royalties but using the name on t-shirts etc? No. The fact that the band is dead makes no difference. Same if NO sell t-shirts at Brussels and Paris. Hooky is not involved so he gets no royalties.

I still don't see it as New Order whether it be for charity or not. The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story. It's a ploy to sell more tickets. (Because it's for charity good on them however).

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote:

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

CTB wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

Surface wrote: I like Peter and have spoken to him a couple times and he has always seemed a nice fella. However I do think selling t shirts of jd for personal financial gain is just wrong. If he is sharing the profit with Bernard and Steve fair enough.

What? And 'The Other Three' who have 'forced' the name New Order are going to share the profit of any merchandise that they sell at any of their gigs (now or in the future) with Hooky? Poppy cock. If he is going out there playing the music then he deserves all the profit, whether it be from ticket sales or merchandise. :brow:

Not exactly the same thing, seeing as he left the band of his own volition. If the other 3(ish) are still legally NO, then surely its their right to sell NO merch? As far as I can tell, Hooky is the only one who regards his departure as a split...

Yes that's what I was saying.

OK, but I mean that NO are a current, ongoing concern which Hooky left. He's not in the band anymore, so it makes sense he gets nothing from NO merchandise now. JD was different, it was an abandoned entity after Ian's passing. Is Hooky entitled to profit solely from the sale of JD merch at the expense of the surviving members of JD (or in Ian's cae, his estate)? I wouldn't have thought so, although legality and morality are different things...

Non audio merchandise should in no way demand royalties from those not performing at that particular gig. If Hooky was selling audio recorded by JD then of course B & S should receive royalties but using the name on t-shirts etc? No. The fact that the band is dead makes no difference. Same if NO sell t-shirts at Brussels and Paris. Hooky is not involved so he gets no royalties.

I still don't see it as New Order whether it be for charity or not. The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story. It's a ploy to sell more tickets. (Because it's for charity good on them however).

Why should Hooky have been invited? He left the group of his own volition. And I don't recall Bernard or Steve receiving invites when Hooky decided to tour JD albums in their entirety. Not having a go but if you're going to slam Bernard & Steve then at least be consistent and apply your logic to Hooky as well.

0 likes

Using a copyrighted name/logo on a t-shirt probably requires paying a flat licensing fee.

This differs from earning royalties based on quantities sold of music or books.

0 likes

To save space and not keep quoting.... As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited. He knew and worked with Shamberg too. Bernard and Steve turned down the invite to tour the JD albums. I am not bashing B or S by the way. I'm a big fan but I just think Hooky gets a bad press and at the end of the day he is the most willing, nostalgic and enthusiastic about the back catalogue. I for one love that about him.

0 likes

Moaning on about T shirts you don't like at gigs seems pretty pointless. Who gives a toss? Plus I can't take anyone who uses the words "making barf motions IRL" in an article seriously.

The Paradise Man wrote: As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited.

Errr I think it's fair to say that since 2007 Hooky has been pretty vocal about how much he disliked being in New Order towards the end and how he flatly doesn't like Bernard or his methods. That's his well documented stance and even people who aren't New Order fans know it. Is it really a shock they didn't invite him? Especially after all the slaggings going on in print for literally years now?

Obviously, Hooky's more than entitled to do what he likes and there's a lot I admire about the man; he's a great musician and I love all his bands (well, except Freebass) but come on, it was no huge surprise The Other Three didn't pick up the phone.

There is obviously a chunk of stuff between them which is not public... but until that's revealed :shrug: It's quite sad, I'd much rather Hooky were on stage with them at these upcoming gigs. He'll be missed but of his own admission he doesn't want to be a part of New Order any more; he's been saying so repeatedly since 2007.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story.

OK, what's your God's honest opinion on Hooky walking out of New Order in 2006 then unilaterally announcing to the press that the band were over before the others knew of his decision? Or were the Other Three lying in their press statement of the time? How do you think that past action equates to them not inviting Hooky on these forthcoming charity dates?

Seriously, I'm curious.

I'm a big fan of Hooky and The Other Three but I'm keen to remain impartial in this. Getting sycophantic to either side just seems utterly pointless. It's obvious that there's past form here on both sides here and it's important as fans we remember that rather than slavishly going "Yeah! We love 'bandmember' and the others are wankers."

A bit of perspective :shrug:

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: To save space and not keep quoting.... As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited. He knew and worked with Shamberg too. Bernard and Steve turned down the invite to tour the JD albums. I am not bashing B or S by the way. I'm a big fan but I just think Hooky gets a bad press and at the end of the day he is the most willing, nostalgic and enthusiastic about the back catalogue. I for one love that about him.

Not true at all, they received no invite and Hooky has admitted as much himself. In this recent Guardian interview, he declared 'If I'd asked him [Bernard] for permission, they'd have told me to fuck off anyway.'

So it's pretty hypocritical to criticise Bernard, Steve & Gillian for not asking Hooky when he couldn't even extend that courtesy himself.

0 likes

NotAMod wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story.

OK, what's your God's honest opinion on Hooky walking out of New Order in 2006 then unilaterally announcing to the press that the band were over before the others knew of his decision? Or were the Other Three lying in their press statement of the time? How do you think that action equates to them not inviting Hooky on these charity dates?

Seriously, I'm curious.

I'm a big fan of both Hooky and The Other Three but I'm keen to remain impartial in this. Getting sycophantic to either side just seems utterly pointless. It's obvious that there's past form here on both sides here and it's important as fans we remember that rather than slavishly going "Yeah! We love "bandmember" and the others are wankers."

Just a bit of perspective :shrug:

Well I'm certainly not a servile self-seeker who attempts to win favour by flattering influential people. I judge people on their merits. The whole thing is a sorry tale of 2 friends who now don't speak. Who really knows what went on? The press certainly don't. I just think it would have been a nice gesture on their part to at least ask Hooky if he wanted to be involved especially since he worked with Mr Shamberg. Hey, they may have got along just fine and buried the hatchet! As for Hooky leaving the band.... If my memory serves me well didn't Bernard walk out of New Order in 1989 to record as Electronic? No one knew then if they would ever get back together.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: I still don't see it as New Order whether it be for charity or not. The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story. It's a ploy to sell more tickets. (Because it's for charity good on them however).

Sell more tickets to who exactly?

You suggesting people would not be turning up if it was billed as "Sumner, Morris, Gilbert and Cunningham play the music of New Order?" which might possibly be a more apt description, and wouldn't lead to any pontification about whether they're the real deal or not.

By the same suggestion, did you also not see it as New Order for the past two albums and last 10 years worth of gigs because Gillian was missing?

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: As for Hooky leaving the band.... If my memory serves me well didn't Bernard walk out of New Order in 1989 to record as Electronic? No one knew then if they would ever get back together.

That's reaching, and you know it. There's a big difference between band members going off and doing their own thing after an album next to going to the press and unilaterally announcing that the band are no more when the other band members supposedly (going by their press statement) had not been consulted in advance.

What happened in 1989/1993 and 2006 is completely different. Even throughout the nineties each member of New Order (including Hooky) refrained from commenting too specifically on New Order's future. The most common quote was "we have no plans to record together in the forseeable" which does not equal "New Order are finished".

0 likes

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: I still don't see it as New Order whether it be for charity or not. The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story. It's a ploy to sell more tickets. (Because it's for charity good on them however).

Sell more tickets to who exactly?

You suggesting people would not be turning up if it was billed as "Sumner, Morris, Gilbert and Cunningham play the music of New Order?" which might possibly be a more apt description, and wouldn't lead to any pontification about whether they're the real deal or not.

By the same suggestion, did you also not see it as New Order for the past two albums and last 10 years worth of gigs because Gillian was missing?

You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere. Sure there was some good stuff on the last 2 albums but for me it was nowhere near the real deal.

0 likes

NotAMod wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: As for Hooky leaving the band.... If my memory serves me well didn't Bernard walk out of New Order in 1989 to record as Electronic? No one knew then if they would ever get back together.

That's reaching, and you know it. There's a big difference between band members going off and doing their own thing after an album next to going to the press and unilaterally announcing that the band are no more when the other band members supposedly (going by their press statement) had not been consulted in advance.

What happened in 1989/1993 and 2006 is completely different. Even throughout the nineties each member of New Order (including Hooky) refrained from commenting too specifically on New Order's future. The most common quote was "we have no plans to record together in the forseeable" which does not equal "New Order are finished".

What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: If my memory serves me well didn't Bernard walk out of New Order in 1989 to record as Electronic? No one knew then if they would ever get back together.

Nobody ever walked out of New Order back in 1989, they just concentrated on their solo projects...

Nobody ever said "New Order have split" or "New Order are no more"...

:smoking:

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

With what has recently happened, I doubt it, especially as they'll be in their 60's by then - maybe in wheelchairs?

Having said that, I doubt people would have expected to see Pink Floyd and Roger Waters together again, but in this case a LOT of personal insults will have to had time to heal, and I don't think that's likely this late in their careers...

:smoking:

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

If it's properly remastered and not a godawful shambles like the 2008 ones I'll be well impressed :nod: Seriously, I'd buy it.

0 likes

Nick King wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

With what has recently happened, I doubt it, especially as they'll be in their 60's by then - maybe in wheelchairs?

Having said that, I doubt people would have expected to see Pink Floyd and Roger Waters together again, but in this case a LOT of personal insults will have to had time to heal, and I don't think that's likely this late in their careers...

:smoking:

Exactly, I was thinking of the Floyd when I wrote that. They got very personal with each other and now have mellowed considerably.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote:

Nick King wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

With what has recently happened, I doubt it, especially as they'll be in their 60's by then - maybe in wheelchairs?

Having said that, I doubt people would have expected to see Pink Floyd and Roger Waters together again, but in this case a LOT of personal insults will have to had time to heal, and I don't think that's likely this late in their careers...

:smoking:

Exactly, I was thinking of the Floyd when I wrote that. They got very personal with each other and now have mellowed considerably.

Personally, I hope they do, but unfortunately, I doubt it... :(

:smoking:

0 likes

You've veered away from what I asked. Do you have an opinion of that original "split" decision by Hooky in 2007 and how he went about it? You've already said you don't like the fact Bernard and Stephen are doing gigs without asking him (admittedly, it sits a little uneasy with me too) but how did you react to Hooky going to press all those years ago and folding the band without telling them?

Those two decisions seem to be interlinked to me. You can't slag one without the other. It's like slagging off a neighbour to fuck for years and then moaning when you don't get an invite to the neighbourhood barbecue.

0 likes

NotAMod wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: What? You think New Order are finished? Rubbish, they will be gigging in 10 years time, promoting the newly digitally remastered boxset of the day.

You've veered away from what I asked. Do you have an opinion of that original "split" decision by Hooky in 2007 and how he went about it? You've already said you don't like the fact Bernard and Stephen are doing gigs without asking him (admittedly, it sits a little uneasy with me too) but how did you react to Hooky going to press all those years ago and folding the band without telling them?

Those two decisions seem to be interlinked to me. You can't slag one without the other. It's like slagging off a neighbour to fuck for years and then moaning when you don't get an invite to the neighbourhood barbecue.

You keep editing your posts mate! My opinion is that he left the band and that was sad. He had his reasons. Maybe it was easier to finish it via the press? They obviously fell out big time. Maybe he couldn't speak one on one to the controlling perfectionist bass hating wanker any longer :laugh:

0 likes

I did edit my post because I thought that this was leading nowhere, really. No point on confrontation for the sake of it.

The Paradise Man wrote: Maybe he couldn't speak one on one to the controlling perfectionist bass hating wanker any longer :laugh:

And there we have your opinion :) wasn't so tough was it?

For what it's worth, I actually agree and wish they would bury the hatchet. But demonising one side (Hooky or Barney) against the other on these forums is getting really fucking dull. I'm sure each have their justifications for what they've done but we only have the PR interviews to go on at the moment and the lion's share of them are coming from Hooky.

For better or worse :shrug:

0 likes

NotAMod wrote: I did edit my post because I thought that this was leading nowhere, really. No point on confrontation for the sake of it.

The Paradise Man wrote: Maybe he couldn't speak one on one to the controlling perfectionist bass hating wanker any longer :laugh:

And there we have your opinion :) wasn't so tough was it?

Are you an unemployed News of The World journo? 'Infamy infamy they've got it in for me!'

0 likes

There we go. The f word in all it's glory. Fair play guys. We're all friends together aren't we? :\ohwell:

0 likes

You started it :p

But yes, you're absolutely right. Nothing to be gained from bickering so let's just leave it there. Surprisingly, you'd probably find you and I have a great deal in common when it comes to seeing both Barney and Hooky burying the hatchet. Of course as a fan I'd love to see them at least friends in future.

Music notwithstanding.

Peace.

0 likes

NotAMod wrote: You started it :p

But yes, you're absolutely right. Nothing to be gained from bickering so let's just leave it there. Surprisingly, you'd probably find you and I have a great deal in common when it comes to seeing both Barney and Hooky burying the hatchet. Of course as a fan I'd love to see them at least friends in future.

Music notwithstanding.

Peace.

Well quite. Surface started it I think you'll find with his t-shirt profit remark earlier in the thread. Anyway, are you going to the gigs? Or are you firmly in the Hooky camp and attending his Lowry gigs? :evil4:

0 likes

I am going to Brussels and Paris, yes. I regularly use Eurostar at least twice a month so it's not much of a detour.

I've seen The Light at least three times in various shapes and forms over the years. Whatever anyone thinks of the decision to tour the entire JD catalogue, they play it extremely well; I've never said otherwise. Similarly, I think the original point of this thread whinging about T shirt merchandise sales is pretty redundant... who gives a shit?

If Hooky suddenly walked out on the stage with them at Brussels I think the roof would literally lift off the place. I'm still sort of hoping that might happen and usher in a new era but the interviews being released recently don't give much hope...

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere.

What was wrong with the 1998 gigs?

0 likes

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere.

What was wrong with the 1998 gigs?

Nothing they were great and a ray of hope was cast. I was referring to recorded output with Gillian. The live experience from 2001 onwards was very different and in my opinion not quite as magical.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere.

What was wrong with the 1998 gigs?

Nothing they were great and a ray of hope was cast. I was referring to recorded output with Gillian. The live experience from 2001 onwards was very different and in my opinion not quite as magical.

Not quite as magical ... because Gillian was missing?

You do know she's back now. Woohoo! :nod: :laugh:

0 likes

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere.

What was wrong with the 1998 gigs?

Nothing they were great and a ray of hope was cast. I was referring to recorded output with Gillian. The live experience from 2001 onwards was very different and in my opinion not quite as magical.

Not quite as magical ... because Gillian was missing?

You do know she's back now. Woohoo! :nod: :laugh:

Yes but an even more important member is missing. New Order without Hooky..... Doesn't bear thinking about! :skeptic:

0 likes

NotAMod wrote: You've veered away from what I asked. Do you have an opinion of that original "split" decision by Hooky in 2007 and how he went about it? You've already said you don't like the fact Bernard and Stephen are doing gigs without asking him (admittedly, it sits a little uneasy with me too) but how did you react to Hooky going to press all those years ago and folding the band without telling them?

Those two decisions seem to be interlinked to me. You can't slag one without the other. It's like slagging off a neighbour to fuck for years and then moaning when you don't get an invite to the neighbourhood barbecue.

Yes but going by that analogy you're going to feel a tad peeved about not getting a courtesy invite,considering some of the sausages on that barbecue are yours.Tricky one.

0 likes

NotAMod wrote: Similarly, I think the original point of this thread whinging about T shirt merchandise sales is pretty redundant... who gives a shit?

Evidently this guy does. :laugh:

0 likes

As for my opinion...I don't really care much about the shirts at this point. I just don't like the idea of artists touring an entire album (usually older albums), so I'm not interested in The Light (or Primal Scream playing Screamadelica as well). About the 'split', I don't really consider the 2007 situation as a split even though the results may have been the same (in other words, New Order not continuing). It was very clear that Hooky had left the band, and the other members (Bernard, Steve, Phil) weren't falling out with each other, and they wanted to continue making music somehow. It was obviously not a situation of the four of them discussing that they should end the band.

Musically, I have my preferences. I like many JD songs, but I like more New Order songs. I like some Monaco songs, but I like more Electronic songs. I like a few Revenge songs, but I like more BL songs. But I still think Hooky is a great bassist. I don't really agree with Hooky's opinions regarding illegal downloads and the music business; I admit he has a point, but I don't think it's the number one reason for artists not selling as many CDs any more. I can certainly see how people think he is cashing in on the past about these JD (and now maybe New Order album tours) album tours; I think it's clear he wants to focus on that instead of making new music for whatever reason. It's unfortunate, but I suppose that's his decision. (I'm hoping Primal Scream might make new music after this Screamadelica tour situation though.) I also don't quite understand his comments regarding Gillian's role in the band in his recent interviews, to be honest.

I can't really comment on the personal issues/arguments about the band members but you know, that is life. It's just I don't have this nostalgic romanticism towards Joy Division, so I don't get as sentimental as Hooky does. Neither do I romanticise people who died young, like some Joy Division fans seem to do. But even if Hooky toured NO albums, I still wouldn't be interested because when I go to a concert, I want to hear a mix of old and new (unless they've just reformed and haven't written new music); not an entire older album. And although I liked some songs he did vocals on in Monaco songs ('WDYWFM', 'Black Rain' etc...) I don't really feel the need to want to listen to a bunch of NO songs with Hooky on vocals.

Sorry for the long post (and I know I haven't said much about the shirts).

0 likes

Aww Moz the impeccable integrity icon. Anyway what's precisely the problem? The fact that there are t-shirts for sale or the fact that they're ugly? Don't know why anybody would mind the fact that there is merchandise sold at gigs, people like to take something home from gigs as they make a nice reminder, especially the designs with tourdates on. I remember being so pissed of when there was no NO merchandise in Turin that I went and bought an Inspector Muttley tee from a stall (and two sizes too small at that) because those were the only tees on sale. If the problem is of aestehtic nature then yes, those look really ugly.

0 likes

El Jarvo wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: You know me too well. Yes and yes. New Order died in 1993, I've said this elsewhere.

What was wrong with the 1998 gigs?

If New Order never reformed, a great deal of fans (including myself) would never have seen them play live.

0 likes

Eh, all I said was I didn't think it was right selling JD T shirts when he is playing with the light. On another note I saw Bernards wife pulled up at the traffic lights yeaterday. I was about to ask her of any news on the set list and the bloody lights changed!

The Paradise Man wrote:

NotAMod wrote: You started it :p

But yes, you're absolutely right. Nothing to be gained from bickering so let's just leave it there. Surprisingly, you'd probably find you and I have a great deal in common when it comes to seeing both Barney and Hooky burying the hatchet. Of course as a fan I'd love to see them at least friends in future.

Music notwithstanding.

Peace.

Well quite. Surface started it I think you'll find with his t-shirt profit remark earlier in the thread. Anyway, are you going to the gigs? Or are you firmly in the Hooky camp and attending his Lowry gigs? :evil4:

0 likes

It was the Ian Curtis soap on a rope tht I draw the line at.

0 likes

I find it amazing that anyone can make sweeping judgements about a persons character based on press reports, hearsay and just plain guessing.

We don't know any of the band personally and we don't know the full story behind any of this.

0 likes

Julijana Zitnjak wrote: Aww Moz the impeccable integrity icon.

:abovelol: Fucking T-shirts thread :sleep:

0 likes

Gene wrote:

Julijana Zitnjak wrote: Aww Moz the impeccable integrity icon.

:abovelol: Fucking T-shirts thread :sleep:

It's all getting 'stalkerish'!

0 likes

Major T wrote: I find it amazing that anyone can make sweeping judgements about a persons character based on press reports, hearsay and just plain guessing.

They're in the public eye so unfortunately that type of thing goes with the territory. Agreed that fans who randomly attack their character are twats. It's what's been said in black and white print over the years that the rest of us are trying to discuss.

They've all done loads of interviews since 2007 regarding the split. In the past month Hooky's done what, 20 new interviews, as promo for The Light in the USA? Some boy :nod:

Inevitably fans are gonna discuss what's been said in those interviews. Anyone with half a brain knows there is stuff behind the scenes we don't know about.

0 likes

The T-Shirts do indeed show poor taste. After all the work Peter Saville has put in over the years, with great designs and aesthetic, these shirts are just utter rubbish (design-wise) and they take a big dump on that.

0 likes

You know, I'm okay with this. Yeah, they're ugly, but (from what I can see in the pics) they're also clearly specific that they're THE LIGHT TOUR merchandise. Back in the dark ages when I was younger, I always wanted the t-shirt from a show for the bragging rights, so if somebody is really happy that they saw the show and they want the shirt, they can get one. Plus Hooky is entitled to do merch for his shows.

I'd feel differently if they were all Joy Division shirts with no mention of The Light, but they're not. Even the Mind the Gap-style one-- if you know anything about the JD aesthetic, you know that they would have NEVER made that shirt back in the day, so it's clearly not supposed to be Official Joy Division Merchandise.

0 likes

Fair point Housey - case closed for me :-)

Housey wrote: You know, I'm okay with this. Yeah, they're ugly, but (from what I can see in the pics) they're also clearly specific that they're THE LIGHT TOUR merchandise. Back in the dark ages when I was younger, I always wanted the t-shirt from a show for the bragging rights, so if somebody is really happy that they saw the show and they want the shirt, they can get one. Plus Hooky is entitled to do merch for his shows.

I'd feel differently if they were all Joy Division shirts with no mention of The Light, but they're not. Even the Mind the Gap-style one-- if you know anything about the JD aesthetic, you know that they would have NEVER made that shirt back in the day, so it's clearly not supposed to be Official Joy Division Merchandise.

0 likes

The Paradise Man wrote: To save space and not keep quoting.... As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited. He knew and worked with Shamberg too. Bernard and Steve turned down the invite to tour the JD albums. I am not bashing B or S by the way. I'm a big fan but I just think Hooky gets a bad press and at the end of the day he is the most willing, nostalgic and enthusiastic about the back catalogue. I for one love that about him.

My feelings exactly.

As for the shirts, I've seen plenty JD shirts being sold that are probably knock-offs in which the band doesn't receive a dime... why not sell some?

I find it humorous that people cherish a band so much that they want the band members to starve and stay "true to their roots". Nice when yer in your 20s, but such rubbish when you hit yer older years. All these complaints of Hooky "cashing in" are f'ing pathetic. Just cause someone wore out a few JD and NO albums over the years doesn't make one part of the band... don't like it, then go find new music where the 20-year-somethings are into the "true to yer roots" bs. PH has a mortgage and needs to eat, if people are willing to buy it then he'll pay his bills... if its complete rubbish then people won't buy it and he'll be out a couple quids and lose the hpuse like he did the Hacienda...

0 likes

EdelBrock wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: To save space and not keep quoting.... As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited. He knew and worked with Shamberg too. Bernard and Steve turned down the invite to tour the JD albums. I am not bashing B or S by the way. I'm a big fan but I just think Hooky gets a bad press and at the end of the day he is the most willing, nostalgic and enthusiastic about the back catalogue. I for one love that about him.

My feelings exactly.

As for the shirts, I've seen plenty JD shirts being sold that are probably knock-offs in which the band doesn't receive a dime... why not sell some?

I find it humorous that people cherish a band so much that they want the band members to starve and stay "true to their roots". Nice when yer in your 20s, but such rubbish when you hit yer older years. All these complaints of Hooky "cashing in" are f'ing pathetic. Just cause someone wore out a few JD and NO albums over the years doesn't make one part of the band... don't like it, then go find new music where the 20-year-somethings are into the "true to yer roots" bs. PH has a mortgage and needs to eat, if people are willing to buy it then he'll pay his bills... if its complete rubbish then people won't buy it and he'll be out a couple quids and lose the hpuse like he did the Hacienda...

Lots of people buy merchandise at concerts etc...so I'm not too concerned about that, or the t-shirts too. Of course, the best thing for people who believe he is cashing in, is to not go to his gigs. I'm not interested in a concert/gig in which only older albums are played, like the way that Hooky is doing it. Like I've said, I'm more interested in a gig that mixed older and newer songs (unless the artist has just reformed and hasn't written anything new yet). So I'm not interested. We all know musicians need to pay their bills; even older musicians---it's just so few older musicians do 'album tours' of their much older albums. (Primal Scream is doing that with Screamadelica, but then again, PS had an album out in 2008, and they are probably more likely than Hooky to write new music again.) If that is the way Hooky wants to make money---he can do so, but I'd rather listen to, for example, his recent collaboration with Autokratz 'Becoming the Wraith' with that good bassline, instead of listening to him tour JD songs or talk about JD and Ian many times in interviews. Maybe I don't have that much nostalgic feelings towards JD :read:.

So maybe it's the way he's chosen to be a musician (doing mostly JD---now maybe even NO?) album tours, writing books about Hacienda, JD etc... that some people don't feel comfortable about? That is why I can understand the criticism. Surely that FUC 51 blog was a bit harsh, but I think they had a point (just a little bit).

0 likes

If PH still has a mortgage he needs to talk to his accountant and take him to the cleaners : the band got £1m signing for London in 1993 - enough to buy almost all of Manchester at 1993 property prices.

0 likes

Agree and he has a beautiful pad which is worth well over that amount nowadays!!

mark reed wrote: If PH still has a mortgage he needs to talk to his accountant and take him to the cleaners : the band got £1m signing for London in 1993 - enough to buy almost all of Manchester at 1993 property prices.

0 likes

Surface wrote: Agree and he has a beautiful pad which is worth well over that amount nowadays!!

mark reed wrote: If PH still has a mortgage he needs to talk to his accountant and take him to the cleaners : the band got £1m signing for London in 1993 - enough to buy almost all of Manchester at 1993 property prices.

Let it go lads. It's not healthy.....:baby:

0 likes

leather_girl wrote:

EdelBrock wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: To save space and not keep quoting.... As the 2 gigs are for charity then yes Hooky should have been invited. He knew and worked with Shamberg too. Bernard and Steve turned down the invite to tour the JD albums. I am not bashing B or S by the way. I'm a big fan but I just think Hooky gets a bad press and at the end of the day he is the most willing, nostalgic and enthusiastic about the back catalogue. I for one love that about him.

My feelings exactly.

As for the shirts, I've seen plenty JD shirts being sold that are probably knock-offs in which the band doesn't receive a dime... why not sell some?

I find it humorous that people cherish a band so much that they want the band members to starve and stay "true to their roots". Nice when yer in your 20s, but such rubbish when you hit yer older years. All these complaints of Hooky "cashing in" are f'ing pathetic. Just cause someone wore out a few JD and NO albums over the years doesn't make one part of the band... don't like it, then go find new music where the 20-year-somethings are into the "true to yer roots" bs. PH has a mortgage and needs to eat, if people are willing to buy it then he'll pay his bills... if its complete rubbish then people won't buy it and he'll be out a couple quids and lose the hpuse like he did the Hacienda...

Lots of people buy merchandise at concerts etc...so I'm not too concerned about that, or the t-shirts too. Of course, the best thing for people who believe he is cashing in, is to not go to his gigs. I'm not interested in a concert/gig in which only older albums are played, like the way that Hooky is doing it. Like I've said, I'm more interested in a gig that mixed older and newer songs (unless the artist has just reformed and hasn't written anything new yet). So I'm not interested. We all know musicians need to pay their bills; even older musicians---it's just so few older musicians do 'album tours' of their much older albums. (Primal Scream is doing that with Screamadelica, but then again, PS had an album out in 2008, and they are probably more likely than Hooky to write new music again.) If that is the way Hooky wants to make money---he can do so, but I'd rather listen to, for example, his recent collaboration with Autokratz 'Becoming the Wraith' with that good bassline, instead of listening to him tour JD songs or talk about JD and Ian many times in interviews. Maybe I don't have that much nostalgic feelings towards JD :read:.

So maybe it's the way he's chosen to be a musician (doing mostly JD---now maybe even NO?) album tours, writing books about Hacienda, JD etc... that some people don't feel comfortable about? That is why I can understand the criticism. Surely that FUC 51 blog was a bit harsh, but I think they had a point (just a little bit).

When you reach our ages and all your heroes are old men, you may change your mind :hat:

0 likes

NotAMod wrote:

The Paradise Man wrote: The fact that Hooky was not invited stinks. A farce, but that's another story.

OK, what's your God's honest opinion on Hooky walking out of New Order in 2006 then unilaterally announcing to the press that the band were over before the others knew of his decision? Or were the Other Three lying in their press statement of the time? How do you think that past action equates to them not inviting Hooky on these forthcoming charity dates?

Seriously, I'm curious.

I'm a big fan of Hooky and The Other Three but I'm keen to remain impartial in this. Getting sycophantic to either side just seems utterly pointless. It's obvious that there's past form here on both sides here and it's important as fans we remember that rather than slavishly going "Yeah! We love 'bandmember' and the others are wankers."

A bit of perspective :shrug:

Simply, he was drunk when he said that indeed :beer:

0 likes

You're leaving NewOrderOnline

This link goes to an external website we don't operate, which has its own privacy policy and terms.

Destination:
Continue ↗