In the Hands of the Lawyers

you would have thought that he would have noticed that a contingency plan is already in place before this round of the name battle started. They have already put out the replacement name if needs be "neworder now"

I can't be bothered adding my views anymore. My final comment - Hero to Zero, which is really sad as I see the guy around the village quite a lot. I sometimes feel like putting a fans view across to him but I reckon he has a mental block on this issue, so probably no point.

russell club wrote: you would have thought that he would have noticed that a contingency plan is already in place before this round of the name battle started. They have already put out the replacement name if needs be "neworder now"

El Jarvo wrote:

Big Mouth Julio wrote: If they continued as Bad Lieutenant we wouldn't hear so many complaints from Hooky as now.

And they wouldn't have a 1/10th of the fans attending their gigs. :\ohwell:

hooky was bitching about BL before all this and i doubt there would have been a big difference in the crowds when its essentially the same line up.

bernard's vocals are an advantage for the band,hooky cant replicate them to any serious degree while bernard continues to gig.

they also have steve,the best musician in the group.

El Jarvo is quite right, they wouldnt be falling out over the name if the name was value-less. Equally, if the Bad Loo album had been released under the NO name it would've sold stackloads more. Which makes me wonder what the next one will be named...

Wait til the Peter Hook & Monaco 2013 tour though. New Order-lite if ever there was. Bernard should have sued.

Despite his twangy basslines, can't say I'll miss Hooky - his latter years 'stage prowling' and bellowing down the mic were embarrassing. Stay in your spot unless yr Mark King, or Lemmy.

He should take up golf or yoga, find some inner calm instead of all this vengeful grieving.

effect return wrote:

bernard's vocals are an advantage for the band,hooky cant replicate them to any serious degree while bernard continues to gig.

they also have steve,the best musician in the group.

NotAMod wrote: On the other hand, from today if a core writing group of Phil, Steve, Bernard and Gillian decide to try and create something new under the "New Order" name then why not? They've got 75% of the 1980-1998 line-up and 75% of the 2001-2006 line-up... there are bands out there with far fewer original members on board

Makes sense to me but, like those other bands you refer to, sometimes it aint so simple. Ex-members dont like money being made from a band name they feel they have a part share of.

Again, look at what happened to Bucks Fizz, its all very similar.

El Jarvo wrote:

effect return wrote:

El Jarvo wrote:

Big Mouth Julio wrote: If they continued as Bad Lieutenant we wouldn't hear so many complaints from Hooky as now.

And they wouldn't have a 1/10th of the fans attending their gigs. :\ohwell:

hooky was bitching about BL before all this and i doubt there would have been a big difference in the crowds when its essentially the same line up.

No difference in crowds between BL and New Order?

You sure?

BL couldn't hope to sell out anywhere like the Troxy. They couldn't even sell out the Electric Ballroom!

im sure,the novelty of name returning was a big factor in the sell outs,a lot of people who always regretted not seeing the band live had their chance to see them.

id like them to get bigger crowds but i dont see a huge change in the bands punter appeal apart from jake going and gillian coming back.

I think the issue Hooky has (and I'm sure I've read/watched him say it somewhere - "you may have two thirds..") is that he feels New Order are himself, Bernard & Steve i.e. what became of Joy Division's demise and therefore if 1 of the 3 left, it's significant enough that the remaining 2 can't still be called New Order if they add someone in.

Not saying I agree but I think that's his point, particularly in light of his recent comments re: Gillian coming back.

Guilty Partner wrote: I think the issue Hooky has (and I'm sure I've read/watched him say it somewhere - "you may have two thirds..") is that he feels New Order are himself, Bernard & Steve i.e. what became of Joy Division's demise and therefore if 1 of the 3 left, it's significant enough that the remaining 2 can't still be called New Order if they add someone in.

Not saying I agree but I think that's his point, particularly in light of his recent comments re: Gillian coming back.

Interesting thoughts.

This is the crisis I knew had to come...

NotAMod wrote:

Genetic wrote: Equally, if the Bad Loo album had been released under the NO name it would've sold stackloads more.

In terms of the core NO personnel who actually wrote the BL album it was mainly just Bernard and Phil. Steve only contributed to about 2 or 3 tracks overall and doesn't play on any of the other 13 or so tracks. Similarly Tom Chapman and Gillian were not involved in the songwriting. I think Alex James from Blur actually co-wrote more of it than Steve.

It was never going to be passed off as a New Order album so even as a hypothetical point that doesn't work.

On the other hand, from today if a core writing group of Phil, Steve, Bernard and Gillian decide to try and create something new under the "New Order" name then why not? They've got 75% of the 1980-1998 line-up and 75% of the 2001-2006 line-up... there are bands out there with far fewer original members on board

Exactly. The writing/creative core of BL was Bernard, Phil, and Jake Evans, and, to be fair, they did try to do something that wasn't straight up New Ordery by making a more guitar based album with light touches of electronics and having Jake do lead vocals on a few tracks and backing vocals on the rest.

Steve didn't play on most of the album because he was dealing with family issues (when Bernard first announced BL, he said it was he and Steve) so his presence was missing...but the three tracks that Steve played on and co wrote (Poisonous Intent, Running Out of Luck, Run Away) bear his imprint and are distinctively more New Ordery, and, live, BL sounded better due to his drumming.

When BL started working on their second record, Steve was was a full time member of the band, they were writing and recording in his studio, Chapman had become comfy in the lineup, and, according to Phil, Gillian was spending more and more time in the studio with them, leading me to believe that she must have been jamming and writing with them.

It must have been so tempting to want to use the name New Order again, especially since there was 75 percent of the original line up writing and recording together.

And that name means a lot. As New Order, they are selling out large venues, headlining big dance festivals, getting a lot of press....to be fair, BL tried to make it as BL. When they did their first tour, they were doing seven BL songs in the set (when NO toured GR and WFTSC, they only did 3 to 4 songs from each album during a show)..............and it must have been frustrating for BL to go onstage with the crowd chanting "New Order! New Order!".

On top of that, I think Jake wanted to be known as a songwriter in his own right (and he should be, he is very talented).....so it must have made sense for them to go back to New Order.

As for Hooky...well....I love Hooky....but he quit the band. They went on without him. Simple as that.

And, to be honest, New Order sound better live now than they did on the 2001, 2002, 2005, and 2006 tours.

There are many bands that exist with just the lead singer and some other musicians. If you take Steve and Gillian out of the equation and you had Bernard's New Order and Hooky's New Order we all know which one would sell more tickets.

At the end of the day I shouldn't think anyone outside of this forum could give a flying fuck if Hooky was in New Order or not.

Gary wrote: If you take Steve and Gillian out of the equation and you had Bernard's New Order and Hooky's New Order we all know which one would sell more tickets.

You're suggesting we'd be forced to choose. I reckon if that ever happened (and fuck knows its possible) I wouldnt be suprised to see equal ticket sales, give or take, assuming they both peformed in equal sized venues.

what a total penis that bloke has turned into

Hooky,

Stop it. Be quiet. You left the band. What the band does now is frankly, none of your business now - as long as you get the residuals royalties for old record sales and performances of old songs. You don't have a say anymore in what happens in the future. You've got a say in what The Light do. They are your band now. New Order aren't your band anymore.

Write new songs. Record new songs. Tour new songs. Stop being a nostalgia act to yourself. Stop vowing revenge, and the wrath of lawyers, onto people you used to work with.

If I left my girlfriend, I wouldn't dare presume to be able to ban her from seeing anyone in future. You left New Order, and therefore, what they do now is not in your influence.

This is ridiculous, and undignified. You cannot stop them being New Order now and if you say it isn't New Order anymore, then it also wasn't New Order when Gillian was looking after her sick children and almost dying of cancer.

Let it go.

mark reed wrote: Hooky,

This is ridiculous, and undignified. You cannot stop them being New Order now and if you say it isn't New Order anymore, then it also wasn't New Order when Gillian was looking after her sick children and almost dying of cancer.

Let it go.

leather_girl wrote: ...yet they were allowed to use the name New Order when Gillian left and they continued?

I'm glad you keep making this point leather_girl. Hooky is obviously blind to the facts.

Bloody facts...

RobbieAmbrose wrote:

leather_girl wrote: ...yet they were allowed to use the name New Order when Gillian left and they continued?

I'm glad you keep making this point leather_girl. Hooky is obviously blind to the facts.

Bloody facts...

Those facts are a pain in the arse aren't they? Sure they'll be turned into some spun old whiny bollocks bordering on fiction in the book.

Yawn. Let it go Hooky. Now I have given him gruff for the cover band stuff, but I did just buy the Live from Oz version of No Love Lost. Pretty good.

Genetic wrote:

Gary wrote: If you take Steve and Gillian out of the equation and you had Bernard's New Order and Hooky's New Order we all know which one would sell more tickets.

You're suggesting we'd be forced to choose. I reckon if that ever happened (and fuck knows its possible) I wouldnt be suprised to see equal ticket sales, give or take, assuming they both peformed in equal sized venues.

oh please.

look, i love Hooky, and saw The Light in Boston and loved them...

but to most folks (i.e. beyond us nuts in this forum) Bernard Sumner IS New Order. he sings the songs.

you go to see a band live, you want to hear the original singer of the band sing the songs the way you remember them.

typical person has a choice to see either Hook's New Order or Sumner's New Order, they are going to pick Sumner's. just the way the world works. no idea why this is even up for debate. i guarantee Hooky would agree.

Tarbox23 wrote:

Genetic wrote:

Gary wrote: If you take Steve and Gillian out of the equation and you had Bernard's New Order and Hooky's New Order we all know which one would sell more tickets.

You're suggesting we'd be forced to choose. I reckon if that ever happened (and fuck knows its possible) I wouldnt be suprised to see equal ticket sales, give or take, assuming they both peformed in equal sized venues.

oh please.

look, i love Hooky, and saw The Light in Boston and loved them...

but to most folks (i.e. beyond us nuts in this forum) Bernard Sumner IS New Order. he sings the songs.

you go to see a band live, you want to hear the original singer of the band sing the songs the way you remember them.

typical person has a choice to see either Hook's New Order or Sumner's New Order, they are going to pick Sumner's. just the way the world works. no idea why this is even up for debate. i guarantee Hooky would agree.

WHY ARE YOU BRINGING ME INTO THIS?

I really hope they can get to a point where both parties draw a line under this and go about their business as new order and the light. Washing all the dirty linen in public does hooky no favours at all.

I guess the sniping in the press keeps the publicity machine going for both sides but when does it become damaging. It's sad because as hard as I try all the hooky stuff in the press over the last year has really turned 'the light' off for me. Always been a hooky fan, from revenge thru freebass, went to the factory opening, saw freebass, read the book was aghast at mani's outburst and defensive when fuc51 slagged hooky off.... So I'm not a hater .... But a lot less angry stories in the media would do wonders

Here's hoping we reach a point where new order exist as new order, hooky tours some new stuff (maybe throw in some gun world porn) and both parties bolster their pensions before reforming and playing a technique tour before retiring

Tarbox23 wrote:

but to most folks (i.e. beyond us nuts in this forum) Bernard Sumner IS New Order. he sings the songs.

True but if he roped Pottsy in on vocals it'd sound pretty similar. Look, this is all hypothetical bollocks about a bollocks situation.

Im out.

Genetic wrote:

Tarbox23 wrote:

but to most folks (i.e. beyond us nuts in this forum) Bernard Sumner IS New Order. he sings the songs.

True but if he roped Pottsy in on vocals it'd sound pretty similar. Look, this is all hypothetical bollocks about a bollocks situation.

Im out.

Talked with Potty a few months ago and he said there's no chance for a Monaco return.

No, I don't know just why No, I don't know just why Which way to turn I've got this ticket to use...

NotAMod wrote: Julio, stop trying to rip off 79 order by putting in lyrics at the end of your post.

You don't do it half as well as he does

Quite agree.

Leave that sort of thing to 79 Order and his genius lyric choices.

johnny wrote:

NotAMod wrote: Julio, stop trying to rip off 79 order by putting in lyrics at the end of your post.

You don't do it half as well as he does

Quite agree.

Leave that sort of thing to 79 Order and his genius lyric choices.

That was one of 79 order's... It just got lost in the post...

Snorri xxx

Usually only the lawyers will win.