is Bernard a freakin' looney??

i was wondering if he had a pet halibut.... bet it's named Eric too...

i dunno... what lyrics stand out to you on Get Ready??? the end joke? The duet with Corgan seems heartfelt, i can easily imagine Bernard losing his keys all the time and forgeting to take care of his car... but the song structures/production style are more formulaic than the 1980s stuff, so the lyrics and choruses stand out more, and sound silly, he seems like he is pretending to be a real songwriter, like we should really take him seriously... Crystal sounds silly, the only thing that saves it is Hooky's bass lines, i remember when the remix of Sub-Culture came out, it was so funny, so exaggerrated purposely both with the vocals and abusing the synths and machine beats, with the female singers backing his funny but probably real lyrics about staying up all night wanting to get laid and masturbating... then you have Crystal, with lyrics almost devoid of any personality, absurdly fluffed up with female background vocals, is this a joke that i do not understand?

barney is my favourite memeber!

that said, i don't know why som of you guys are into barney-bashing. in comparison to other frontmen, he's alright. i can name a million singers who suck ass (can't sing, can't dance(if they do dance), can't write, take loads of drugs and annoying as hell...*cough* noel gallaghar... *cough* bret anderson....)

as for who is the driving force of new order? they all are (well, maybe except gillian...:() they all have their signature sound and contribution to the group...steve's drumming, hooky's bass and barney's vocals and guitars and gillians keyboards. i have always got the impression that new order is a very tight nit group, even though they had their quarrels.

and let's break down the barney stuff you hate...

lyrics

frankly, i liked get ready, it made me a fan. it was my first NO cd i actually owned. and crystal is a great NO song! it wasn't BLT or ceremony that made me a fan, but crystal. it was the first NO song i truly cared about. oh yeah, the lyrics...you know, í won't lie...there are lyrics that barney wrote that i cringe at. mainly from raise the pressure, but a lot of you all seem to like it, so i don't understand you guys at all. lyrics make is such a small part of a song anyways. i know loads of people who don't give a rat's ass about lyrics as long as the music is good. that is the most important thing. BAD LYRICS JUST MAKES A BAD SONG EVEN WORSE! if it's a good song, who gives a crap about lyrics?

dancing...

give him a break. at least he doesn't attack the audience and give them a black eye like courtney love. there's worse things about a performance than dancing.

fat...

isn't this the most trite crticism of barney you've ever heard? i know a lot of you just jokingly poke fun at his weight, but as serious crticism against the man, it is very trite. barney isn't making his living as a model. besides, i think he looks good for his age (it's that face i tell you!) and weight gain is common among aging men. frankly, i think hooky looks worse...why don't you ever pick on him? in nearly every pic i've seen of new order...hooky is nearly always fatter than barney! i think you just think he's fatter than everyone else cuz you see him more often than hooky...and isn't it any wonder?

drugs and drink...

that has little to do with music. and it's nearly a given that a lot of musicians are heavy drinkers and druggers. it isn't new and i'm sure there are people who have a more devastating experience with drugs than barney. marianne faithful and that guy from alice in chains...now those are the druggies! compared to them, barney looks like a health nut.

guitar playing

this is a first, bizaare love trapazoid! i thought there was a consensus that barney is a good guitar player...well, there will always be dissenters out there.

the fat comment was totally bogus...you couldn't be more right.....i do believe drink and drugs have a big effect on the music and you only need to listen to the live performances to hear the result of heavy drink/drug intake....i appreciate what Bernard's guitar style adds to neworder songs, i just don't rate him as a guitar player. he still has a very punk-ish style (simple) but again, when you listen to recordings you can tell he either can't play or he's too fucked to play.....i can't believe i am the only person who feels this way about bernard. neworder wouldn't be the same without him (of course) and it's his cool as fuck attitude that negates all the poor aspects of his performance.

i find barney rather fetching, actually...:kiss:

and as for fat, well, he is a middle aged man after all. and i've heard that he's trying to lose some weight now that he's off the drugs. plus, has anyone taken a look at hooky's chin lately?

as for his lyrics...he's never been a bob dylan, but who cares? he's still my favourite member of the band!

Let it be stated that I'm sick and tired of that whole "In the Factory days NO were uncompromising, uncommercial musicians" shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Oh yeah, let's release a single with non-album songs... and make our fans buy BOTH the album and the single 'cause they're brainless wankers!"

OH MY GOD! HOW SO UNCOMMERCIAL THAT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, it's YOU NOOLers I'm complaining about, not the Order...

Oooooh! Handbags anyone?

Originally posted by JORGE TEIXEIRA Let it be stated that I'm sick and tired of that whole "In the Factory days NO were uncompromising, uncommercial musicians" shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"Oh yeah, let's release a single with non-album songs... and make our fans buy BOTH the album and the single 'cause they're brainless wankers!"OH MY GOD! HOW SO UNCOMMERCIAL THAT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amigo Jorge, you are very Pete Tong there! Commercialism does not come from making us fans buying many different products but from the quality and uniqueness of those products. I will happily go out and buy any non album single they make. If they want to do a Wedding Present and churn out a new non album single every month and if the quality is as consistently good as it was in the Factory years (or with HTS for that matter) I shall go out and buy it even if I have to go hungry or pawn the matress, I may even get into a church and thank God for that.

What is blatant commmercialism is issuing an album song in three different CD singles with off the peg remixes and no input wahtsoever by the band.

Originally posted by Budvar Huber

Originally posted by JORGE TEIXEIRA Let it be stated that I'm sick and tired of that whole "In the Factory days NO were uncompromising, uncommercial musicians" shit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Oh yeah, let's release a single with non-album songs... and make our fans buy BOTH the album and the single 'cause they're brainless wankers!"

OH MY GOD! HOW SO UNCOMMERCIAL THAT WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Amigo Jorge, you are very Pete Tong there! Commercialism does not come from making us fans buying many different products but from the quality and uniqueness of those products. I will happily go out and buy any non album single they make. If they want to do a Wedding Present and churn out a new non album single every month and if the quality is as consistently good as it was in the Factory years (or with HTS for that matter) I shall go out and buy it even if I have to go hungry or pawn the matress, I may even get into a church and thank God for that.

What is blatant commmercialism is issuing an album song in three different CD singles with off the peg remixes and no input wahtsoever by the band.

well said

Budvar, you're not wrong, of course... but my rant was against those who insist on living in the past. Not that it was not glorious, I lived it and I remember it very well. But I really don't miss the Factory days as much as I'm not a member of the Pete Tong Appreciation Society. The sad fact is that Factory is dead and has been for more than TEN years, because of it's amateurish/loon boss spending millions on the hollidays of a bunch of hooligans, so wake up and face the reality! The fact that "H" Wilson never bothered to sign a contract with NO is just a sign of his stupidity (to say the least), not of Factory's artistic "integrity"!

Obviously I've missed the point: I thought they were taking the piss. Just like they've always done.

Some people need to get out more. Do you wince at Barney's dancing? Flinch at his chubby face? Look a bit closer.....

THAT'S. HIS. TONGUE. PUSHED. FIRMLY. IN. HIS. CHEEK.

They're a bunch of talentless Manc chancers who just happen to make glorious, heartbreaking pop music. And that's why I love 'em so.

Originally posted by JORGE TEIXEIRA Budvar, you're not wrong, of course...but my rant was against those who insist on living in the past. Not that it was not glorious, I lived it and I remember it very well. But I really don't miss the Factory days as much as I'm not a member of the Pete Tong Appreciation Society. The sad fact is that Factory is dead and has been for more than TEN years, because of it's amateurish/loon boss spending millions on the hollidays of a bunch of hooligans, so wake up and face the reality! The fact that "H" Wilson never bothered to sign a contract with NO is just a sign of his stupidity (to say the least), not of Factory's artistic "integrity"!

AMEN TO THAT! TOTALLY AGREE!

Originally posted by martin&nbspfradley Obviously I've missed the point: I thought they were taking the piss. Just like they've always done.Some people need to get out more. Do you wince at Barney's dancing? Flinch at his chubby face? Look a bit closer.....THAT'S. HIS. TONGUE. PUSHED. FIRMLY. IN. HIS. CHEEK. They're a bunch of talentless Manc chancers who just happen to make glorious, heartbreaking pop music. And that's why I love 'em so.

Good post

That's pretty much the way I see it. People are reading way too much into things

well, i'm a yank and i think that people who sit there and analyze every lyric and every note of every song are missing out on one thing...the FUN of listening to the music! stop being a music trainspotter i say, and get on with enjoying the band! leave the 'deep' pseudo-analytic nonsense to the music reviewers that nobody pays attention to anyway.

i did not spout pseudo-intellectual W(y)ank. if you look at the most recent performances, live and studio, you will find it is Barney that makes the most mistakes and comes up short on his end of the deal. the lyrics to Get Ready are SHITE (in general) and while I like most of the lyrics on Republic, most here hate them.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid i did not spout pseudo-intellectual W(y)ank. if you look at the most recent performances, live and studio, you will find it is Barney that makes the most mistakes and comes up short on his end of the deal. the lyrics to Get Ready are SHITE (in general) and while I like most of the lyrics on Republic, most here hate them.

wasn't necessarily referring to you, biz.:D barney's lyrics often make me cringe, as well, but i've read a few postings that make me want to fall asleep just a little...like i'm reading a term paper for a music analysis class :dead: (not just on this thread, and, fortunately, they're few and far between). just my humble opinion.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid i did not spout pseudo-intellectual W(y)ank. if you look at the most recent performances, live and studio, you will find it is Barney that makes the most mistakes and comes up short on his end of the deal. the lyrics to Get Ready are SHITE (in general) and while I like most of the lyrics on Republic, most here hate them.

With New Order, I am consistently moved because of their music - the instruments, the simple keyboard line, the bass, and the drums... not vocals. Occasionaly the vocals say something to me, but the only reason I hear them is because the instruments have already opened the door and have my full attention. I do agree that people need to lighten up and choose to enjoy something or leave it alone and not whine and complain all the time because someone else's music doesn't have lyrics they like. If the person who wrote the song likes the lyrics and it speaks to them then good. Who gives a crap what we think? If I was a professional musician making albums, I sure a heck would not write lyrics because of what I thought other people would like. I would write what I want to about what I want, and if you don't like it you can go take a run and jump.

so it's not possible to question a band you love on a fan site message board? is this a hero worship board or a place for thinking people to express their opinions? i too enjoy the music and regularly overlook the sometimes bad lyrics. why else would i constantly listen to the Order, continue to buy different releases even though, unless there are mystery recordings available, i already own ALL know new order recordings/remixes etc....still a FEW live shows left to track down but with more bootlegs than i'll ever have the patients to listen to.....you get my point...big neworder fan here who happens to not blindly LOVE everything they do. they ARE HUMAN and that is perhaps the most endearing part of NewORder. however, when you break it down, hooky's bass/attitude is infallable with only occasional fuck-ups live (and someone please unplug his mic during the songs...between banter is classic though) steven can do no wrong (unless barney is off his nut and needs the song faster) and gillian has 'retired' from live performances and i can hardly fault her for that....there are some very questionable recordings of Gil missing her share of notes but what can you do? so considering these things, it's easy to accept that it's Bernard....ah fuck it, long live NewOrder, this conversation is bollocks anyway...

I think that's a good way to put it. I like NO because they are a "human" band... especially live. I wonder if they ever practice? I recently bought the Police box set and found it very interesting that the last practice the band had was 1976. They were never a tight band on stage, they lived for the thrill of wondering if they could pull it off on stage without practice. They messed up a lot but people loved them anyway. New Order is that way. New people listening in might find it annoying, those of us with a longer view think it is something that makes them NO. I won't say their perfect in any area, if they were they would be fake and over produced like everything else out there.

"Some people never go crazy, what truly horrible lives they must have"

... I can understand what BioHazard's feeling, that in a nutbox, the band have been unable to 'capture' the living essence of the Factory days. I believe the reaction from many NOOL's has been mainly to contest this. BH, it's not that your being shot down for disliking this (or any other) aspect of the band, it's that so many disagree with you because they recognise you are a true fan who is currently not extracting as much from them as they are (including me) ... if you like, we only want 'you' to like them as much as 'we' possibly can. We aren't trying to get at you in any way.

My 3 pence worth on your current annoyances (trying to keep it short):

Factory days are gone but NO are the same band so why not the same attitude and emotion and vigour?

Well, to me, they have. I can see only a marked improvement on the live performances from, say, the mid-eighties where wandering into a record fare to pick up the last bootleg resulted in either huge joy or huge dissapointment at the latest gig. Sometimes, they were absolutely appauling. Sometimes, they were great. No change there then, they equally drop as many notes as they used to - Steve the more pro. muso by some considerable mile. Barney whooping and whistling, just a current idiosyncrasy from a brilliant mind.

I'm no fan of re-mixes, but commercialism, just look at the state of them now and what have London Records done to them!

Do you not recall this from 1985: Low-Life (vinyl album, white box Factory cassette, cassette) (The Perfect Kiss 7" in multiple formats and colours, The Perfect Kiss 12" in multiple formats and colours) (Subculture 7" in multiple formats and colours, Subculture 12" in multiple formats and colours)

Songs on albums released in multiple versions separately ... no change there then. Re-mixing for clubs a new phenomenan (which they helped to create). Ignore the re-mixes (unless you are a DJ), it's mostly unchanged.

They're fat and losing the plot: Metabolism slows down over age and NO don't have energetic jobs. If they can shake a few pounds good for them, it's got nothing to do with us.

Their music just is not as good as it used to be: We All Stand Liar Chemical vs. Crystal Primitive Notion Turn My Way

The lyrics are banal and sound rubbish: They always did. And to many people, this is what they dearly love about them. It's the sublime sound juxtaposed with a terrible set of lyrics that makes you cringe and weep with joy ... marvellous!

So BioHazard ... despite the past and present, the band are pretty much identical ... as mentioned so eloquently above by Mr. Marvellous Marvin Franklin ...

'They're a bunch of talentless Manc chancers who just happen to make glorious, heartbreaking pop music. And that's why I love 'em so'.

(everything, BH, is a bonus)

......with everything i've previously stated i shall return to the words of the man in question for my final statement(s):

....nothing in this world can touch the music that i've heard.........

......i'd like to say to those who accuse me...Can you do it while you look in my eyes?...........

two bits of wisdom from THE VOICE of my adolescent and adult life........no one is perfect and no one should be held to that standard......Long Live Barney (just don't make him come up with lyrics to 10new songs)

i don't mind the goofy/nonsense lyrics really... i certainly never cared back in the mid 80s... and i don't hate him at all...

what annoys me is when the songs are obviously forced into a pop song framework, and some of the lines and the chorus stand out like a sore spot, they are not really that catchy, it just starts to seem inane and silly at times, the lyrics seem to be given too much important in the song, the songwriting and frontman presence dont seem to warrant it... and alot of songs on Get Ready seem to go at least one chorus too many...

back around Power, Corruption + Lies to Brotherhood... nobody gave a shit so they could be as goofy as they liked and experiment and have fun, and produced unique music, great music outside of the pop mainstream structure while still being successful to some extent both critically and finacially, everybody knows the story....

then they tried to be more intentionally involved in the pop mainstream... True Faith pretty much crossed most lines, with another dance remix to fill dancefloors like BLT...Technique is still an excellent record, combining 80s pop with their indie outlook and absorbing some of the, what was then, new acid house and rave culture...

then comes the very silly World in Motion, which is a fun one-off project, which starts off with awful old out of date Madonna type synths (should have only used that nice house piano all thru the song)..."loves got the world in motion" in a standout bad chorus line, but it is so funny that they got a #1 record!...

but in the 90s there is definately an effort by Bernard to be more of a part of mainstream pop music, consciously writing in a pop format (often sounding dated in the process)... using outside pop producers to pop up New Order's sound (Regret is a really nice song thou), plus trying to be a lead frontman with Electronic (probably one of the most unremarkable band names ever). in the USA, Electronic was marketed as Marr from the Smiths and Tenant from the Pet Shop Boys, and oh, also a member of New Order to fill out the line-up, they had trouble even remembering his name. Getting Away With It is embarassing to me, an inane forced attempt to make a fluffy, mainstream love pop song. Then Raising the Pressure made almost no mark whatsover in the USA, and Twisted Tenderness was not even released at first because few people could care less anymore, the band had no real image, personality in the pop world, or even alterna-pop world.

and the remixes...a lot of people complain about the remixes, even though there are a few excellent tracks, but a lot of filler thru-out the years... they need the remixes to try to get played on dancefloors all over the world, in the tradition of Blue Monday, Perfect kiss, Bizarre love triangle, and True Faith, because DJs would never play the album versions, the dance sound is too dated and would really stick out like a sore spot... in fact alot of DJs wouldnt even touch most of the remixes because of the vocals. i just wish they were a little more adventurous with the Get Ready remixes.

I can see that Remixes have there place on the dance floor - and they probably do get the more exposure. But, they have no place in my collection. I may own them, but I am an original mix type guy. Also, remakes are good to, as are live versions. I even like it when NO remixes their own stuff, because they do not lose the meaning and feel of the song.