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Sometimes, I go back and listen Joy Division tracks and what stands out to me more than anything is how aggressive and commandeering Sumner's riffs are. I find his guitar work in Joy Division so much more potent than anything he's done in New Order. I'm not saying his work in New Order is subpar, but it sounds like a different guitarist.
I know this doesn't make much sense, but it's how I see things...feel free to trash me.
Maybe the types of songs are different and maybe the songwriting process was different. So maybe that's why. But I don't really know. Anyone else have opinions/insight?
Think he may have gotten bored with guitar as he took over the singing. As he said, "we weren't very good with our hands so we had to use our heads." And the seduction of technology. But JD had a much more stripped down sound compared to NO so his riffs stood out alot more.
But today I think it all depends on his mood as the Benecassim video demonstrates.
I would tend to agree with the above post in relation to Bernard's role changing when he became lead singer, he was a decent lead guitarist in JD but my favourite song when it comes to Bernards guitar playing is actually a New Order song...Sooner Than You Think.
Don't forget he had to change his playing style, he said himself he couldn't sing and play guitar at the same time, so he started to play around the vocals. Also went more and more synthy as time progressed, but that might have happened if Joy Division continued too. Interesting really, who knows what would have happened, especially as he was getting better and better.
sensible and thought provoking, agree with the comments above, yet also, his style IMO was always different between studio and live and that would change over the years as his committement/interest fluctuated.
remember he's lived his life on alcohol and lived his life on pills.
I think it goes down to the punk ethos of "shite but interesting", not that im suggesting bernards playing is shite (far from it) but the key thing to remember is that the tune is the most important issue and if the tune doesnt need heavy lead solos or tapping then whats the point of doing it?
From my perspective as a guitarist and recording artist,being a better more practiced guitarist gives you more options in the writing process but you know id rather have written or co written ceremony or everythings gone green than being able to do that video below.
its different, i'd give you that. for me i think you can hear barney repeating that kind of JD sound on Haze by Electronic. 2nd verse around 0:52, this angular guitar comes in, hiding in the shadows, like nothing else on the album. and the actual sound of the guitar sounds damn close to barney on 'turn the heater on' and ryhtm wise (why can i never spell that right?) its the same kind of reggae riff.
agree with effect returned. its boring, muscle memory, practised to within an inch of its life. the same as a wibbly wobbly soul singer going through their vocal machinations (see i can spell that but not rhtym argh), its dull, its perfect, it shows no emotion as you can do the same dang thing night after night.
same thing with drummers. have drummer friends who send me clips of guys (some famous) surrounded by 310 cymbals, 97 toms, 2 bass drums (should be banned. thump-thump-thump at high speed is NOT MUSICAL and EVERYBODY CAN BLOODY DO IT and IT JUST SOUNDS THE BLOODY SAME PLEASE STOP) and then they do incredibly dull playing that consists of 3 dull bars followed by EVERYTHING BEING HIT VERY FAST. no interesting 'riffs'.
Exactly, you could practice all that shredding and tapping but you could train a semi intelligent chimp to do the same, possible exaggeration there but people should get the idea.
Id say he was a better guitarist in new order than joy division, mainly on the basis that the longer you play the better you get. it really depends on interpretation because some people would say that the more lead guitar bits on joy division tracks are more skillful than the open chords on crystal or regret or people might say that they fast muted rhythm chords on love vigilantes are more skillful as you need considerable power in the hand and speed to play them cleanly.
you could ask a 100 people and they'd all give you different opinions.
Really good question
I think it was the singing
The moment he started to sing he changed his playing style. Maybe it was the can't-sing-and-play-at-the-same-time thing. Oh, and the synths, always fun to play with. In Joy Division his only job was the guitar (well, ocasionally keys), in New Order he had to divide attention between lots of other stuff. Like writing lyrics
BUT
not saying he became a worse guitarris! Many great moments pointed in this thread, for example.
His guitar parts in JD were played around the vocals.
Guitar for him is like meat in Asian dishes. It's there for the flavor not the main course. But those times you get a fork full, an ear full, its divine!
Great question and great replies. My take is that in JD he was young and when you are young some people tend to lash out at all sorts of things, in those days politics for example. Some people may choose to punch someone, Bernard may have chosen to take it out through his guitar playing. As we get older we chill and are more understanding, therefore a more laid back approach to the guitar work. Maybe we need to get him angry again!!
Dave Algeo wrote: Wonder if Martin H had much to do with his playing in JD?
Yeah there is a lot of space and reverb in the distorted chordal parts on joy divisions stuff, if you compare a song like white riot from the clash and dead souls from joy division they are essentially played the same and in the same key as far as i can remember but sound very different.
The band were initially unhappy with the sound but your always going to be unhappy generally coming out of the studio as i can testify personally. I have guitar work that i done at home using software guitar emulators that i was happier with than studio guitar work using the same amps and technology every band has used since the 60's in the studio enviroment.
You have an idea how you would like it to sound in your head and when your new to the studio you havent the experience to argue with the producers and engineers because they generally know better though not always and joy division were on factory's time and money in the studio. Its a question of trust in the studio people.
as for the playing itself i doubt martin had any input on stuff they played live in advance but maybe someone in the know could outline that.
