Confession: belated appreciation for JD

After resisting JD all these years (based in large part on an intense aversion to Ian Curtis's voice) I find I have finally developed an appreciation for at least some of the material, namely tracks 2 through 5 on Permanent. Inspired to relisten by the recent discussion of different versions of LWTUA (which I still don't like).

I am ashamed to say....I once used to laugh at Ian Curtis' singing. I know I will be abolished to the netherworld upon my death where my punishment will be to listen to Ethel Murman do covers of JD songs..... anyways, it took a little while for me to get used to his voice too. But thats just it, he has a voice, hes not a singer in the true sense. I encourage you to dig deep and get every JD cd you can find. I am not sure who I love more myself, JD or NO...

ian curtis doesn't have a 'good' voice. it's not beautiful or 'pleasant'. however, bob dylan's voice is pretty horrendous, as well. what they both have in common though, is that their voices have expression. you can sense sarcasm, anger and joy in their voices--something that traditionally 'beautiful' voices sometimes can't achieve.

hope you keep on listening patrick!

Well, so far what I have liked is still not his voice but other things; so far it is liking things in spite of his voice. But I will persist.

yeah, i have to admit it took me a while to get used to his voice. the first time i heard it i was like, 'what the...'.

Originally posted by Agentwood yeah, i have to admit it took me a while to get used to his voice. the first time i heard it i was like, 'what the...'.

Well all you NOOL..has there EVER been a better song than NOVELTY...............................NOABSOLUTELTYNOT(sic)

His voice probably has the same effect on most people when they first hear it... like "who is the heck did he learn to sing from", but if you listen deeper to everything happening at once, it all starts to make sense. Everything they did kind of molded into one sound, and that is why people who listen to them for a while start to love them. I know I did.

Originally posted by Chris Nash I must admit, when my cousin first introduced me to Joy Division in 1978 (I was 11!) I HATED the vocals, but loved the music. In a space of around six months, the vocals seemed to blend in with the music and I couldn't imagine one without the other.

that's how i feel about joy division. i'm not a big fan of ian's voice either, and some joy division songs do get on my nerves...mainly novelty and something must break. but what really drew me into joy division was the instrumentation. the drums, barney's guitar playing and the special keyboard effects they add to their songs is why i love joy division. ian's voice is bearable...but at the same time, it's very important in JD songs cuz of the intensity it brings. i listen to the new order renditions of joy division songs, and sometimes i think there's something missing cuz ian's not singing. but still it's weird, cuz i listen to new order for the vocals, and joy division for the instrumentation.

The first JD song I ever heard was "Love Will Tear us Apart", perhaps I'm in the minority but the first thing that really caught my attention was Ian's voice believe it or not. I didn't think it was a great voice but there was something there that grabbed me. Hard feeling to explain. Then I went out and bought all the albums and never looked back.

Interesting replies to Ian's vocals. He might not be the greatest vocalist ever, but in the post-punk era at the time, there were vocalists like Mark Stewart of the Pop Group, Nick Cave of the Birthday Party, Mark E. Smith of the Fall, etc, so in that context, to me I never really considered it much of an issue. First heard JD on the Transmission single,

Yeah, if you put JD into context i.e. a punk band, then the vocals are fairly normal. Certainly they never seemed to me in any way unusual compared to Wire, PIL, The Cure, etc.

I guess the vocals do seem appropriate and even necessary given the nature of the music.

Hmmmm, interesting. I first heard Joy Division in early 79, and was inspired by the music - I hardly noticed the vocal style as being anything significant. Saw them play in 1980 and was struck by the fact that he couldn't actually sing - struggled on all the songs to be honest. I subsequently found out that his natural voice was the strangulated sound (taste police stay away) evident on the Warsaw stuff, and that it was the use of varispeed and a harmoniser that gave him the resonance.

Throughout my JD awareness, it has always been the music (Barney is one hell of a songwriter) rather than the vocals or the often pretentious lyrics that have held my attention. I do subscribe to Chris's theory that IC was an arsehole at times - far more so than I take that Franck Essner's sycophantic bilge about Curtis being a superior being.

... wait until night has appeared and outside even the crows have fallen silent. Prepare only the finest filter coffee, take position in the comfiest armchair money can purchase (it's in the back room Pat) ... relax as the cans close around your ears halting the outside world ... then when sip 1 was almost upon you, press play.

Let 'Closer' take you to another dimension.

I haven't yet succumbed to Closer, H, but I am growing increasingly enthusiastic about the material on Permanent, which I have been listening to every day recently (after dark, in my most comfortable chair), to the exclusion of anything else.

... you know it's the only way to appreciate the atmosphere of the music.

P, like many others, I too resisted JD for a good while until they crept under my skin when I was looking the other way towards pop world. Outstanding on every level, beautiful, intense music with quite remarkably unique lyrics sung and played without mercy (TDC anyone?). Some outstanding production enhances the feeling.

Closer - without doubt a most intense piece of popular music, as technically brilliant as any classical piece. Utterly depressing from beginning to end.

Permanent skims the surface (the LWTUA re-mix an insult capped by the wrong track listing stating the original as the re-mix). Both Closer and Unknown Pressures hit the spot. Decades, sends shivers every time. I'm not sure NO hit the same intensity? ... even though I love both bands equally.

I'm extremely excited about your change of heart (and soul) towards JD ... I always knew you had it in you.

10 points to you team.

Well, yes, H, I'm excited too, having all this "new" stuff to listen to and savor. Bear with me for using Permanent as a way in; tracks 2 to 5 I reiterate are, I find, very easy to like. I did listen to Decades once in the last few days, and it sounded quite promising. Unfortunately Permanent and Closer are the only things I have copies of; I guess a shopping trip is in order.

Shuttle Cricket, can we concoct a quick must-listen to JD compendium for the man Pats before the weekend is upon us. It looks like he's got twitchy feet, wanting to spend a bit of brass at his local 5 and dime.

1. Decades
2. Shadowplay
3. Transmission
4. A means to an end
5. Colony
6. She's Lost Control
7. Atmosphere
8. LWTUA

Thanks for the encouragement, Shugsy.

Actually, H, I think there's a lot of overlap between your list and my list. Items 2,3, and 6 on your list make up 3/4 of tracks 2 to 5 on Permanent. I believe the only item on your list I haven't listened to is Colony.

Originally posted by ShugZV©
> Originally posted by Huntsman> Shuttle Cricket, can we concoct a quick must-listen to JD compendium for the man Pats before the weekend is upon us. It looks like he's got twitchy feet, wanting to spend a bit of brass at his local 5 and dime.> > 1) Decades> 2) Shadowplay> 3) Transmission> 4) A means to an end> 5) Colony> 6) She's Lost Control> 7) Atmosphere> 8) LWTUA> >

I'll add New Dawn Fades, Glass, Atrocity Exhibition, Insight, 24 Hours, Eternal and Something Must Break.....can't remember which of the above is on Permanent....so get shopping fer the lot Patsy:D

Well, since the sniper has been caught, shopping is once again an option!

These days Isolation Heart and Soul Disorder Insight No Love Lost Digital Autosuggestion Novelty From safety to where

OK, I guess I should just buy everything!

Amen to that cat face.

P - you see, your half way there with your magical overlap capabilities. The wolf-hound Shugz ZX 81 speaks much sense even here. Get yourself the aformentioned items and you'll be so deep by the time your Sunday lunch arrives you'll regret not wearing wellies at the dinner table.

Pastie - I thought your shopping involved only tapping some keys and wishing for magical times? ... I never pictured you diving out of your Bentley en route to Figgits Master Warehouse for a pound of carrots and a loaf of brown.

It's true, H, that shopping is not my favorite activity, and that ordering CD's by keyboard is what I usually do. But that approach does involve a certain delay.

Do you take your time when your shopping for decent trousers though?

I try to do it as quickly as possible, although I'm not entirely sure they qualify as "decent."

Ah yes, I remember......nothing, sorry

I've probably told this story a million kajillion times, but when I first heard JD and Ian's voice, I thought "This guy's just ripping off the Doors!". But, like beer Ian's vocals are an acquired taste. I suggest waiting until late at night to listen to the entire Permenant, as you seem to already be doing.

This brings up an interesting thought: How many people here listen to JD during the course of the day? During summertime? In general, do you prefer cozying up with a nice volume of Kierkegaard or Camus late at night with Closer gently providing relief, or during the day doing a crossword (struggling with "4-letter slang for male sex organ", of course) while Les Bains or the Paradiso blares away in your ear?

Basically, are JD better for night time listening or during the day? Some days I can't even force myself to put in a JD cd during the afternoon, but evening comes and I can't wait to pop in some live show and lay flat on my back (as I seem to have developed minor back troubles--nothing serious). Anyways, which do you prefer?

I can listen to Substance during the day, but the rest is preferable at nite. ORrrr if its not dark out yet, I just close the curtains and make the necessary accompanying atmosphere. Didn't notice til now I like JD at nite/in the dark. :sleepy: Definitely atmospheric, mood music.

Joy Division seems to work during a lonely, cold winters night.

Originally posted by Paul Roy Joy Division seems to work during a lonely, cold winters night.

My thoughts exactly! It's drizziling rain and cold where I'm at right now (though I guarentee we'll hit the 90s a few days from now), so I might put in disc 1 of H&S for a view on how a box set SHOULD be.....

i like to listen to JD before bed, lying in the dark. somehow, i can't really get into them while driving in the car...NO are more suited for that (teenage fanclub are a damn good driving band as well).

joy division is winter music. i consummed so much JD during the winter that JD will always make me think of winter...and street slush.

or overcast, rainy days...which in britain means, oh, almost every day! perhaps that's why i always end up listening to them more often over there than here in florida. (the main exceptions being digital and transmission--good sunshine tunes).

been breakin' out the '70s soul/funk lately. must be the heat. :D

Originally posted by Patrick OK, I guess I should just buy everything!

Buy heart and soul the box set

Originally posted by Ian Pillar > Originally posted by Patrick> OK, I guess I should just buy everything!>

Buy heart and soul the box set

yeah. good booklet with it, as well. informative little thing.

Patrick Member of the Movement

Posts: 1868 Member Since: 2001.07.27

i am very surprised you have only got into this joy division thing

My belated Joy Division appreciation was belated because my introduction to them was on paper and instead of bumbling across someone's critical accolades I bucked the odds and bumbled across a truly unfortunate, dispiriting description of the band in a book, which led me to believe their music must be so extreme as to never come near my interest. I was so stunned by that passage that I filed it away in the back of my mind and hoped to forget it. But I was 14 and impressionable at the time and at an age of discovery and it began to dawn on me that many of my new favorite bands had a lot in common with JD, or used to be JD!

So I became curious, and when I finally heard JD, I loved it immediately and I was instantly, permanently hooked. I can go a year without hearing them and then put on a live album or UP and stand back and look out! wow, it's like a new experience all over again and it's so intense I have to remind myself to breathe after each song.

I did notice in my early JD days, that there was something weird about the singing, like Ian sounded totally different from one song to the next some times, and at the time I had no idea what they could have been doing that would make this happen.

I agree with statements above about Ian's singing not being particularly out of place considering his peers in postpunk, straight through to the present day. His off-key-ness does grate on my nerves at times but not to the point of "OH i just can't listen to this band, I have perfect pitch and this is an insult to my ears" type of thing which I've encountered in other people. I think he must have improved along the way as a singer, though. There are parts of Closer that are as high-pitched as his Warsaw days and he's still singing along rather melodically. I don't know if that's all from the varispeed or what. He definetly changed his approach from punk shouting to singing, and I wonder how he would have continued. If you think about it, having to muck around with two different tools when you sing could make it even harder for a guy who struggled to carry a tune, especially using the harmonizer live. You feel your voice coming out of yourself not in tune to the music and this gadget is supposed to tune it to the music??eeesh Deliberately sing out of key so the gadget can make your voice lower? How confusing for the singer who can barely carry a tune to begin with.

On to the second topic, where do you listen to Joy Division?

Usually in the dark, backyard facing music room at night. Sitting on the floor across from the stereo. Or dancing in the room. I have trouble listing to JD without motion. Usually in autumn or winter, but if we're on a big JD kick, all year. Closer in the house on a cloudy day In the car on a hot summer's night, sunroof down unknown pleasures blaring or better yet, this Paradiso bootleg bought at a flea market in Lake City. Driving around the city at night. Watch the accelorator!

25 miles down unpaved hole-in-the-rock road in Escalante National Monument in Utah, not a soul around for who knows how many miles, nothing but red rock and pink sand and grass and anthills and a clear starry sky: Unknown Pleasures on the rental car stereo. In the middle of Shadowplay, unearthly shrieking zooms in from nowere, we've attracted a burrowing owl, which flies from bush to bush making big eyes and whinnying sounds at us. Many birdwatchers attract owls by playing owl recordings; we've discovered an alternate method!

Alyssa

Still listen to JD anytime anywhere anytime of the year, same as it ever was. We had bright sunshine today and 65 degrees, and The Sound Of Music sounded especially good.

on the bus and at home. actually, whenever i listen to closer, i think of waiting for the bus at a subway station in the winter time, cuz that was when i listened to that record the most.

I know this has been discussed recently, but what was the story about the two versions of LWTUA on Permanent? I actually don't particularly like this song (I find the string sounds very hard to take) but the track 16 version is a little more palatable than the track 1 version.

Permanent was the name of a studio they recorded LWTUA, some days after the original, the 'Permanent' version is included on the Permanent CD. To add confusion the labelling is incorrect on the CD and the 'Permanent' mix is actually the original mix (which is a 'different' version to the original original version as found on the 12").

The above is a potted history of the recent threads on this subject.

Personally, I believe that the 'Permanent' compilation was spiced up for fans by the inclusion of a slight re-mix of the original LWTUA, the 'Permanent' version. This is based on subtle differences in drums (cleaner, more 'digital' sounding), additional vocals which appear to be added in accordance with how the song was perceived and played after the original release (for example, the continuous 'tweaking' of Barney's own lyrics on Tempting Miss Daisy). The final mix is far more synthetic than the original and accordingly is topper.

In response to your blatant disrespect for the magnificent string sound on LWTUA, might I suggest you seek out a potent nasal spray, which should hopefully dislodge any unwanted spinach entwined in your ear hairs which may be causing a muffling of certain top quality groundbreaking sounds.

It appears, H, that we agree that the track 16 version is preferable to the track 1 version, but to me the most obvious difference is that the guitar seems to be a much stronger presence on the track 16 version. Am I wrong about that? Thus, for me, the stronger guitar helps to offset the string sound. But of course you may be right; it could just be spinach in my ears!

And of course there is the question as to what other instrument would have worked with the string sound melody.

You mean, instead of?

I doubt they would have inserted another sound. I think the guitars would have sounded strong enough thus the song is thick enough without Bernard's home made synth. Of course, it's far better for it and adds an eerie feel which enhances all those powerful JD classic elements. Like Atmospheric Conditions, the strings add much provendasity.

Yes, the guitar is more prominent on the correct version on Permanent. Patty, best thing to do is ignore the 'Permanent' LWTUA on Permanent, pretend it doesn't exist. It's easier in the long run. Not many JD re-mixes, this one is an oddity. A product of our time, if you will.

(have you got Closer yet or what?)

Yes, I meant instead of, Huntsy.

So it's track 1 I should ignore? If that's your advice, I'm already taking it.

Yes, I now have Closer, Unknown Pleasures, Substance, Still, and Live at LBD, but I'm still mostly listening to Permanent, nearly every day. Of the others, I am most familiar with Closer, and I believe it is tracks 5 and 9 that I enjoy most, not counting those on Closer.

What I don't understand is why JD are considered "dark." The songs I like seem pretty lively.

Time has elapsed, and the intensity is now hard to imagine.

In the late Seventies the UK was a different place, and JD (for whatever reason) somehow managed to capture this sometimes depressing mood on certain songs. Lost hope, desolation, no future. Seek out upbeat classics like Shadowplay and Transmission and you will hear only quality punk rock, stomping tunes.

Next time it rains P, next time you feel lousy, play Closer again from beginning to end, and let the dark veil shroud you.

I will take your advice, H, perhaps as soon as tonight, although it's not raining and the "lousy" index is no worse than usual.

Originally posted by Ian Pillar PatrickMember of the Movement Posts: 1868Member Since: 2001.07.27i am very surprised you have only got into this joy division thing

I've been a NO fan since 1985, so yes, the lateness of my discovery of JD is hard to explain, as the Strokes would say.

But what a great year to get into NO.

If I'd known about them earlier, it would have been sooner.

The band Orgy was what got me into New Order: "Blue Monday" is awesome!

Then i heard that New Order used to be Joy Division, so i checked out "Dead Souls", cuz NIN did a cover of it.

So "Dead souls" is the first song JD song i heard. This was only last year.

Why so late? Cuz i was born 5 years after Ian Curtis died.

Originally posted by Zebulahn Why so late? Cuz i was born 5 years after Ian Curtis died.

that ist no excuse!!!!!

Only kidding, but thinking Orgy's Blue Monday was "awesome"? Jeez.......:D

Originally posted by Taboo # 7 Only kidding, but thinking Orgy's Blue Monday was "awesome"? Jeez.......:D

I thought Blue Monday was awesome but i liked the New Order version(s) even more! What does that tell you? :D

Originally posted by Zebulahn > Originally posted by Taboo # 7> Only kidding, but thinking Orgy's Blue Monday was "awesome"? Jeez.......:D

I thought Blue Monday was awesome but i liked the New Order version(s) even more! What does that tell you? :D

That you are alright by me, dude (or chick? Dunno what you are, really).

Even though they've done better, Blue Monday is the one that would be the best intro to New Order. I'm sorry, but it's true.