Ceremony to Superheated - revisiting and reviewing every core song

Michael Monkhouse wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: I could just about take half Electronic's Raise The Pressure (wonder if Paul Lester ever did a review of that, maybe Michael Monkhouse could let us know if so )

Do the words 'red flag, bull' mean anything to you? The RTP reviews were negative, and rightly so. The only positivish one was http://www.feeleverybeat.co.uk/albums/melodymaker6july1996.jpg. I thought it was crap. Loved this one: http://www.feeleverybeat.co.uk/albums/nme6july1996.jpg.

That review by Dave Simpson is the most positive review of Raise The Pressure I've ever seen. Almost makes me want to dig the album out and reevaluate it. He cirtainly has a point in there being some good melodies and even good songs buried under the layers of production. Doesn't Dave Simpson post on here from time to time? Is it the same Dave Simpson who writes for The Guardian?

The other link led me to reading again Bernard's Raise The Pressure sleeve note rant. A good rant on the state of the world and society I always thought ,

I tried to edit my earlier comment today to fix the mistake of not putting a space between two words but when I tried to submit the corrected post I got a banner come up saying my post had been detected as spam and wouldn't be posted. Never had before but if it's something Spotnick has done to stop spammers well done Spotnick.Great work mate.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Raise The Pressure sleeve note rant.

Oh that was horrible. 'Wars is bad. Wars is when people do wars. Is wrong. If I am Prime Minister I stop wars but politcals man has interest. If I am Prime Minister no one can be interest, only flowers and sewing and Spice Girl. Wars SUCKS!'

The worst thing about Raise The Pressue has to be the sleeve. I mean, who would sign off on that artwork?

For a person who was in a band synonymous with quality artwork, it seems odd for that same person to agree something quite as bad as the cover to RTP. It’s almost as if he wanted to step as far away from the New Order ideology as possible:

‘An orange, badly-drawn child, in the buff, picking flowers? That looks terrible... yeah, that’ll do!’

Shit album, shit sleeve. Shit. I can't remember but I think I once read Neil Tennant liked the sleeve and then decided he didn't like it. Mind you, he worked with Patsy Kensit and remained homosexual, so what does he know? Shit.

I remember liking it at the time, but I haven't listed to it all the way through in years. Can't remember most of the tracks on it.

Think I played it for the first week or two when I first got it and then only heard tracks from it again when they were released as singles (For You, Second Nature). Compare this with the first album, which I played half to death.

Speaking of the first album, although I still really like it, it does sound rather dated these days. One too many 'orchestra hits' probably. I think I like it mainly for the nostalgia factor. And you know what they say about nostalgia; it ain't what it used to be...

Fotzepolitic wrote: How on earth did you miss the 87 Australia and New Zealand tour, Dennis?

That's an excellent question. I was probably lost in the social blur of 1st year Uni campus life, and I think my brain was wired for clubs more so than live gigs at the time.

I'd sit my 18y.o self down now and have a stern talk about praxis and moment. He'd ignore me of course.

Raise the Pressure had fine songs, better than Billy Joel's and David Bowie's pressure songs, but not as good as the 'under the pressure' song by war on drugs. The cold hard facts are that new order is better than all other bands, and hooky and bernard created more great songs elsewhere.

Brutal + Crystal reviews now up.

...Get Ready, and have come to the conclusion that – a couple of shit tracks aside – it is by & large a really good album

Get Ready certainly doesn't have anything as embarrasingly bad on it as say, Chemical on Republic. So that's a positive. The "real" Killers had a song on their first album that went "It's indie rock n roll for me". Prior to then, I think Indie was just called Indie, but Get Ready could indeed be called "Indie Rock n Roll" with it's tougher rock sound that wasn't quite mainstream.

The sonic palette for Crystal is completely different to Republic

And a change is as good as a rest as they say (mind you NO had had quite a rest by then). Nothing wrong with a new pallette, but to use another phrase coined within a year or so of Get Ready, it was a bit "Landfill Indie".

Of course, if the songs had all been of the quality of Crystal it would have been an absolute triumph. Instead the album is...alright, not bad, reasonably solid. I wouldn't be embarrassed to be caught listening to any particular track. But when I get to the end of it, I find myself going; hmm after Crystal what really stood out for me? What were the other highlights? It all kinda rolls into one big lump, and I pretty much forget it as soon as it's over. As mentioned previously, I wish you luck reviewing the rest of it Dennis. In a way Republic might be more fun to review precisely because it has some good songs and some really poor ones. But this album is sort of a consistent 6.5 out of ten from track 2 until the end.

Sumner’s intentional bum-note that ends the ‘You shock me to the core‘ line

It never occurred to me that Bernard's bum notes were intentional! The album version of Crystal is ace though. Was then; is now. The vocal melody is ace, the guitars are ace, the Hooky bass is ace, the drum sound is ace, the looped piano break is ace. Yeah, it's good this one. I agree that Coombs' mix is the best of the remixes. It goes more danceable yet manages to celebrate some of the best bits of the original, rather than just chuck everything out bar the vocals.

When i think of Crystal the first thing that always springs to mind is the drum and bass drum sound they, or Steve Osbourne (or a combined effort), so brilliantly nailed on it.A real energy and attitude to that sound.So many great sounds they nailed on it basically, that drum sound, the synths and keyboards, Hooky's bass (one of his all time best) , that magical piano break.... I'm maybe not so keen on the lyrics these days as once was but the sound of the music is incredible.Also, that "locust-like spray of sound that backs the 'I don't know what to say' line" you mention Dennis - it always reminds me of the similar spray/hissing sound that heralds intro to The Eternal by JD.Sometimes used to think it was almost like they were making a little nod to their former JD incarnation with that.

First time i heard Crystal was when i caught the video on MTV a few weeks before the song's release.I was completely and utterly overjoyed.We couldn't have ever wished for a better comeback single.

The Lee Coombs remix was the dog's bollocks.Brought out so many of the great elements of the song and what Coombs added was equally magnificent.Thing is it was so good i tended to never bother listening much to the other mixes after an initial first play.Will have to dig 'em out sometime and see what i make of them now.

Possibly my favourite live version of Crystal is the one on the Finsbury park DVD.Cracking stuff.

As for Get Ready as a whole, i remember i'd heard none of it, bar Crystal, til i bought the CD on release day in August 2001.I didn't even have a PC then let alone know where to hunt down illegal downloads pre-release.At the end of the first listen i thought, jeez is that it? Think i'll go and do something more interesting instead.Apart form Crystal it just washed over me without making much of an impact I thought songs like Someone Like You and Close Range were fricking dire on first listen.But i took to songs like Turn My Way (seemingly in a minority on that one) and Vicious Streak quickly on second listen.It was a rockier New Order, but i think i'd been expecting that after Brutal 18 months before.

By a bizarre coincidence, the 'proper' Crystal was the last one I heard. I first bought what would've been the import CD single if I'd been in the UK and it hasd everything but. https://www.discogs.com/it/New-Order-Crystal/release/85535 The radio edit was great - mainly cos it had, in the words of a reviewer, 'a small army of Peter Hooks' - but as with EGG, TF etc, I preferred the full length. The mixes were all up to standard but it got very repetitive as they bunched together edit / full length / dub so I'd usually skip the first and last. Again with London, I did wonder if the band were actively involved, and THAT bass was lost in the dance euphoria, but it was Still Light Decades away from Rest Of.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: I first bought what would've been the import CD single if I'd been in the UK and it hasd everything but. https://www.discogs.com/it/New-Order-Crystal/release/85535

Hmm. I bought the UK CD1 & CD2, (that "20 minute" rule was annoying, wasn't it) and a little later on I stumbled on the 12" of the Creamer & K mixes for a pound or something, so I "took pity" on it and bought that too.

Looking at the listing for that US CD single (and other listings) I see the short (3.22) version of Creamer & K's remix listed as "John Creamer & Stephane K Main Remix". Is it safe to assume that this is actually the intro remix which has been mis-labelled, and only labelled correctly on my 12"?

Also what's with these Acid Planet remixes? So many remixers I've never heard of, which is unusual for me. I've listened to track 1 (so so). Are they all shite?

Have dug out the mixes of Crystal i have.I have the standard UK CD1 and CD2.Can't remember the last time i listened to these, maybe about 2002.. The Digweed and Muir Bedrock mix "edit" on CD1 is 10 minutes long but i turned it off before 5 minutes.Not into it but it did remind that i was once in a club in Tel Aviv when i was on holiday there in 2007 and John Digweed was djing.I went up to the booth and shouted up to him "John!" assuming he would hear my English accent and acknowledge me but he just gave me a whatever look and a barely detectable shrug.Cunt. But i did probably look like a mentalist to be fair.I got a similar response from Dave Clarke when i tried to ask him to put Kraftwerk's 'Numbers' on in a club in Liverpool (not Cream though, i seem to recall.Actually it might even have been Back To Basics in Leeds come to think of it) sometime in the late 90s.I think i concluded after the Digweed incident that trying to say hello or request tracks from DJs was a fruitless pursuit and i should retire to the dancefloor or bar.Lesson learnt.

On to The Creamer And Steph K remix on CD2 now (skipped the unbeatably brilliant Coombs mix as i know what that one goes like and am familiar with it).Yeah i prefer this mix from the Digweed and Muir one, some nice sounds on this one.

I have the 12" of Here To Stay and on which is the album version of Crystal but i seem to recall it's even longer than the album mix? Maybe too unnecessarily long however.

So in summary- the Coombs mix still tops the lot of 'em.

I am a fan of GR. for me it came at a time when I was not just listening to electronic music and started to listen to guitar stuff again and discovering bands and got me out the clubs and back going to gigs again. I really enjoyed the NO gigs around this time. It’s a good solid album and for me along with Crystal I also love Turn my Way, Primitive Motion, close range, and Run Wild. No bad tracks apart from RTS. Putting another big tune like HEre to Stay at the beginning of the b side to match Crystal would have improved the album. My musical clock seems to glide in time with NO so a more guitar orientated album was what I wanted from NO at the time. I didn’t think they could produce another great mainly electronic album at the time. MC delivered a fine electronic influenced album once again at the right time when my thoughts were I didn’t think NO could produce a great guitar influenced album, if that makes sense

Fotzepolitic wrote: Have dug out the mixes of Crystal i have.I have the standard UK CD1 and CD2.Can't remember the last time i listened to these, maybe about 2002.. The Digweed and Muir Bedrock mix "edit" on CD1 is 10 minutes long but i turned it off before 5 minutes.Not into it but it did remind that i was once in a club in Tel Aviv when i was on holiday there in 2007 and John Digweed was djing.I went up to the booth and shouted up to him "John!" assuming he would hear my English accent and acknowledge me but he just gave me a whatever look and a barely detectable shrug.Cunt. But i did probably look like a mentalist to be fair.I got a similar response from Dave Clarke when i tried to ask him to put Kraftwerk's 'Numbers' on in a club in Liverpool (not Cream though, i seem to recall.Actually it might even have been Back To Basics in Leeds come to think of it) sometime in the late 90s.I think i concluded after the Digweed incident that trying to say hello or request tracks from DJs was a fruitless pursuit and i should retire to the dancefloor or bar.Lesson learnt.

On to The Creamer And Steph K remix on CD2 now (skipped the unbeatably brilliant Coombs mix as i know what that one goes like and am familiar with it).Yeah i prefer this mix from the Digweed and Muir one, some nice sounds on this one.

I have the 12" of Here To Stay and on which is the album version of Crystal but i seem to recall it's even longer than the album mix? Maybe too unnecessarily long however.

So in summary- the Coombs mix still tops the lot of 'em.

That mix of Crystal on the Here to Stay 12" is the original full version. More Hooky and better for it.

Debaser wrote: So many remixers I've never heard of, which is unusual for me.

Yeah! Reading these reviews I was struck by what a dip in interest I had from one album to the next. I could recite the entire discography up to Rest Of and saddest of all I did sometimes. The Spice Girls had great songs but didn't write them all alone. If you look at the credits to each Spice track - you need a fucking hobby. BCD... Hmm. Bernard's strong point is the personal (TLU, Temptation, R and R etc) - turn his attention to, like, problems and, y'know, society and stuff and I dunno, maybe we should all be nise to eech udder, right? Some awful lyrics in this period - BCD, Slow Jam, PITL - but far better music than most of Republic. That's probably more to do with Arthur Baker, but at least it was good to get an original B-side. Do we really need BLT vid, BLT 7". BDT 7", BLT 12", BDT 12"? This has urged me to relisten to GR and boy, is it hit 'n' miss - from the awesome (PN) through the mediocre (60 mph) to the truly shite (RTS, which even superegotistical Hooky doesn't like). One thing at a time though.

Andy wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: Have dug out the mixes of Crystal i have.I have the standard UK CD1 and CD2.Can't remember the last time i listened to these, maybe about 2002.. The Digweed and Muir Bedrock mix "edit" on CD1 is 10 minutes long but i turned it off before 5 minutes.Not into it but it did remind that i was once in a club in Tel Aviv when i was on holiday there in 2007 and John Digweed was djing.I went up to the booth and shouted up to him "John!" assuming he would hear my English accent and acknowledge me but he just gave me a whatever look and a barely detectable shrug.Cunt. But i did probably look like a mentalist to be fair.I got a similar response from Dave Clarke when i tried to ask him to put Kraftwerk's 'Numbers' on in a club in Liverpool (not Cream though, i seem to recall.Actually it might even have been Back To Basics in Leeds come to think of it) sometime in the late 90s.I think i concluded after the Digweed incident that trying to say hello or request tracks from DJs was a fruitless pursuit and i should retire to the dancefloor or bar.Lesson learnt.

On to The Creamer And Steph K remix on CD2 now (skipped the unbeatably brilliant Coombs mix as i know what that one goes like and am familiar with it).Yeah i prefer this mix from the Digweed and Muir one, some nice sounds on this one.

I have the 12" of Here To Stay and on which is the album version of Crystal but i seem to recall it's even longer than the album mix? Maybe too unnecessarily long however.

So in summary- the Coombs mix still tops the lot of 'em.

That mix of Crystal on the Here to Stay 12" is the original full version. More Hooky and better for it.

Really? I always assumed that it was the album version. Can anyone direct me to somewhere I can hear this? Ta.

hts 12" promo

I didn't remember that. The only alternate Crystal mix i know, is on the premix album.

I think the version of Crystal on the Here To Stay 12" is exactly the same length as the album version but there are a few differences i.e as Andy said ,more Hooky.But i'm sure negative1 will scold me now for not checking his definitive list for confirmation.

That link doesn’t work for me; just gives a link to the discography main page.

Here’s an extract:

12": UK 2002 (London Records NUOX11) 12": UK 2002 (777 Productions) [double sided acetate] 5:00 Here to Stay (full length vocal) 6:49 Crystal * 8:00 Here to Stay (felix da housecat - the extended glitz mix) 8:01 Here to Stay (the scumfrog dub mix) +

* Actually an extended version running over 7 minutes. Possibly same as on the Get Ready CDR.

Also, looking at Discogs, someone has added the following comment - “Slightly longer version than the album cut of "Crystal" on this 12" with an extended instrumental break, unfortunately the pressing of this 12" is really bad, cut much too loud and therefore distorted.”

https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Here-To-Stay/release/47332

So, it looks like there may be an extended version of the album mix on the standard 12”, not just the promo. Hopefully somebody has it and can let me have a listen. Distortion and all... 😀

perspexorange wrote:

Andy wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: Have dug out the mixes of Crystal i have.I have the standard UK CD1 and CD2.Can't remember the last time i listened to these, maybe about 2002.. The Digweed and Muir Bedrock mix "edit" on CD1 is 10 minutes long but i turned it off before 5 minutes.Not into it but it did remind that i was once in a club in Tel Aviv when i was on holiday there in 2007 and John Digweed was djing.I went up to the booth and shouted up to him "John!" assuming he would hear my English accent and acknowledge me but he just gave me a whatever look and a barely detectable shrug.Cunt. But i did probably look like a mentalist to be fair.I got a similar response from Dave Clarke when i tried to ask him to put Kraftwerk's 'Numbers' on in a club in Liverpool (not Cream though, i seem to recall.Actually it might even have been Back To Basics in Leeds come to think of it) sometime in the late 90s.I think i concluded after the Digweed incident that trying to say hello or request tracks from DJs was a fruitless pursuit and i should retire to the dancefloor or bar.Lesson learnt.

On to The Creamer And Steph K remix on CD2 now (skipped the unbeatably brilliant Coombs mix as i know what that one goes like and am familiar with it).Yeah i prefer this mix from the Digweed and Muir one, some nice sounds on this one.

I have the 12" of Here To Stay and on which is the album version of Crystal but i seem to recall it's even longer than the album mix? Maybe too unnecessarily long however.

So in summary- the Coombs mix still tops the lot of 'em.

That mix of Crystal on the Here to Stay 12" is the original full version. More Hooky and better for it.

Really? I always assumed that it was the album version. Can anyone direct me to somewhere I can hear this? Ta.

Got rid of all my vinyl but had transferred all exclusive tracks to CD-R. Description is "Original Mix" which is how it was listed on the 12" label. Running time (at least on my disc) is 7:08.

I'm not going to go through inch by inch and compare this with the LP mix but the easiest comparison is with the Substance vs. original 12" of The Perfect Kiss: More stuff at the end. Crystal was never a favourite so my ears aren't really going to be tuned to notice minor mix variations throughout the track. I'm sure someone will find something exciting about it...

I have just given a spin the version of Crystal on the Here To Stay 12" and it does clock in at around 7.08 as Andy says.

I was timing it on the stopwatch on my phone though so not entirely accurate but i'd say about 7.08 yeah.Though the tracklistings on the sleeve of the Here To Stay 12" states Crystal 6.49 but i'd say that's an error.The album version is 6.51 according to my CD copy of Get Ready when i put it in iTunes.

The difference i can possibly tell is there's , as i said, more Hooky in the last 3rd of the track on the Here To Stay vinyl.

I do have a vinyl to digital gadget but i haven't used it for a few years and would have to work out again how to use it if i was to transfer the vinyl to digital of the version of Crystal on HTS 12" then upload it somewhere.I don't think it's a great pressing to be honest and the vinyl to digital kit i have was from the cheaper end of that market.I'm sure there's a digital version of it already on the internet somewhere already, there has to be.

Fotzepolitic wrote: I have just given a spin the version of Crystal on the Here To Stay 12" and it does clock in at around 7.08 as Andy says.

The premix version of Crystal, with more Hooky in the bridge, clocks at 7:23. Seems to be yet another version.

More about this premix at: http://www.allformusic.fr/new-order/get-ready-premix-mastered http://thepowerofindependenttrucking.blogspot.be/2009/12/got-ready-new-order-get-ready-mastered.html

Thanks both for checking this out.

Looking at the images on the Discogs page (labels, back sleeve), there doesn’t appear to be any note that this is a different version. Sounds like it was possibly mispressed, with the wrong track being picked up from the master tape. Much like the ‘original version’ of Temptation on the TBTHOG CD.

Have had a bit of a hunt online, but no luck, sadly.

Ben wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: I have just given a spin the version of Crystal on the Here To Stay 12" and it does clock in at around 7.08 as Andy says.

The premix version of Crystal, with more Hooky in the bridge, clocks at 7:23. Seems to be yet another version.

More about this premix at: http://www.allformusic.fr/new-order/get-ready-premix-mastered http://thepowerofindependenttrucking.blogspot.be/2009/12/got-ready-new-order-get-ready-mastered.html

I really like the Pre-Mix + Companion.

There are some really interesting variations. SLY is excellent. That Brutal Instrumental Demo on the Companion is great, plus that very different demo of 60MPH is really good.

There’s probably a few too many mixes of Brutal on there though. 7! Crikey! [:eek]

As far as crystal goes, here is a comparison of the 12 inch mix on the top, and the album version.

Both are very similar until about the 5 minute mark, and the they diverge from there.

So, yeah there are some differences. As far as sound quality goes, the 12 inch mix isn't too bad, but obviously not as clear as the album version, the dynamics are different too.

later -1

perspexorange wrote:

Ben wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: I have just given a spin the version of Crystal on the Here To Stay 12" and it does clock in at around 7.08 as Andy says.

The premix version of Crystal, with more Hooky in the bridge, clocks at 7:23. Seems to be yet another version.

More about this premix at: http://www.allformusic.fr/new-order/get-ready-premix-mastered http://thepowerofindependenttrucking.blogspot.be/2009/12/got-ready-new-order-get-ready-mastered.html

I really like the Pre-Mix + Companion.

There are some really interesting variations. SLY is excellent. That Brutal Instrumental Demo on the Companion is great, plus that very different demo of 60MPH is really good.

There’s probably a few too many mixes of Brutal on there though. 7! Crikey! [:eek]

Never heard about the companion. Will have to find it...

The pre-mix is indeed very interesting. I replaced Crystal by the Hooky-enriched premix version in my Get Ready iTunes playlist, as well as SLY which is slightly different (with one different chorus if I remember well) and, indeed, better to my ears . If my memory is right, Close Range premix is very different from the final version (which I prefer).

There was that Dalek shenanigans and the 'Crystal' line in the Electronic B-side 'Radiation'. What a hotbed of ideas they are... How LEGIT is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELECTRONIC-The-12-inch-B-Sides-Collection-2-cd-29-Tracks-New-Order-Smiths-/253210667585 ? Slightly off-topic but the Lec's 'Second to None' and 'All that I Need' are better than a lot of LP tracks. No one listens to the Corrs. You just watch them. (People ask why I'm always criticising Trump and jerking off to the Spice Girls. Well I tried it the other way round and it wasn't the same... DISGUSTING! A grown man criticising the Spice Girls). There was a good premix of Someone Like You too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5so\_8xLDkQY And Close Range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtreehmbi2U I never liked Close Range cos of the namby pamby lyrics but the DVD live version is better - backing vocals and a longer introduction.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: There was that Dalek shenanigans and the 'Crystal' line in the Electronic B-side 'Radiation'. What a hotbed of ideas they are... How LEGIT is this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELECTRONIC-The-12-inch-B-Sides-Collection-2-cd-29-Tracks-New-Order-Smiths-/253210667585 ? Slightly off-topic but the Lec's 'Second to None' and 'All that I Need' are better than a lot of LP tracks. No one listens to the Corrs. You just watch them. (People ask why I'm always criticising Trump and jerking off to the Spice Girls. Well I tried it the other way round and it wasn't the same... DISGUSTING! A grown man criticising the Spice Girls). There was a good premix of Someone Like You too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5so\_8xLDkQY And Close Range https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtreehmbi2U I never liked Close Range cos of the namby pamby lyrics but the DVD live version is better - backing vocals and a longer introduction.

I do really like 'Second To None'. 'All That I Need' was pretty good too.

Both those premix versions are excellent. I especially like the 'Someone Like You' mix. That track is bloody great anyway.

As regards the DJ mixes of 'Crystal', I have a couple of the Cybersecrecy mixes (Indestructible & Shatterproof Mixes), a couple of the Corvin Dalek mixes (Siliconsex & Donner & Summer Remixes) and the Original Demo on the Mark Reeder 'Collaborator' LP. I think there were some Flatner & Ingram mixes too but I've never heard them.

Music-wise, the mixes aren't really my cup of tea. However, it's really nice to hear the additional lyrics that are included in some of them:

'The close that I get to you, The more you run away from me. Just tell what I've got to do, You don't have to be afraid of me. I want your love, I need your love. I want the things that others have. Whenever you're here with me, That's where I want to be.'

For anyone that didn't know, prior to New Order recording Crystal, Sumner's vocals were given to various DJs, via Mark Reeder, with the idea that they would make tracks using the vocals supplied. Pete Tong heard heard one of the mixes created and said that it was the best New Order track he'd heard since Blue Monday, so NO decided to record a version themselves. They presumably added the chorus (I don't know what to say etc.), as that doesn't seem to appear in any of the mixes. The mixes created by the DJs were shelved until after the band's version had been released (which makes sense). I think that some of them have never seen the light of day.

Here's the Cybersecrecy Shatterproof Mix with the extra lyrics if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLkmtU6t1OU

I think some of them might have been sung by Dawn Zee in NO's version, but it's nice to hear Sumner sing them.

Seen as if some of the remixes used these lyrics and some didn't, it makes you wonder if there were any other lyrics not used.

Behind Closed Doors + 60 Miles An Hour reviews now posted.

Thanks everyone for your ongoing feedback, opinions, and occasional diatribe... much appreciated. DR