Happy Birthday to Substance

The New Order version, released 30 years ago today, according to Mr. Hooks Facebook

The only singles compilation I like listening to...

Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).

I made a playlist some years back with the full 12"s and the original versions of Ceremony, Temptation and Confusion. Then, as I felt I couldn't live without them, added the re-recorded versions of said tracks to the end, as bonus tracks. Probably my most listened to playlist ever.

perspexorange wrote: Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).

Still my favourite album after all these years. After being aware of Blue Monday, True Faith and buying the 7" of Touched, this was my proper introduction to the band when I bought it on tape as a 13 year old whilst on holiday in 1988 on the Isle of Wight. Tend to only play the whole thing whilst on holiday even now, as it always captures that mood. In fact, I put 'Ceremony' on the jukebox in a Penzance pub where I'm currently on holiday just last night!

I actually think that as an album it benefits from having the re-recorded Temptation and Confusion, as well as the shorter Shellshock, Sub-culture and Hurt, as the original 12" versions meandered along quite a bit. Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)? If it's ever remastered and re-released, the CD should mirror the vinyl tracklisting and include the unabridged Perfect Kiss, but retain the other edits/re-recordings.

Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single. There was a Benelux edited remix on 7" at about the same length but it was a different cut - where do you reckon the Substance edit was released?

Mr Discography wrote: Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)?

Yes, vinyl and cassette versions of Substance have the full version.

Mr Discography wrote: Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single.

It wasn't - the edit on Substance is unique to that album.

Tracks were edited because at the time only 72 minutes of music could be put on one CD.

4:23 - Ceremony 5:20 - Everything's Gone Green 6:59 - Temptation '87 7:28 - Blue Monday 4:43 - Confusion '87 6:38 - Thieves Like Us 8:50 - The Perfect Kiss (full remix) 7:28 - Subculture (full remix) 9:45 - Shellshock (full remix) 6:33 - State of The Nation 6:44 - Bizarre Love Triangle 5:55 - True Faith ___________________________ 80:46 - total, too long to fit on a single CD

You could argue that it should have been a 3xCD set, but that defeats the purpose of Tony Wilson wanting to be able to listen to all their singles on one CD in his car (how Substance came to be). And, in 1987, CDs hadn't dominated the market yet. Consumers balked at the expense of a double CD (and Factory probably didn't have the funds for it anyway).

My original Factory and Centredate cassettes of Substance also have the edited Perfect Kiss. Don't know of any cassette versions that have the full version.

Hmm. Now you've got me thinking. Originally, I always thought that the Substance edit of Sub-culture was unique to Substance (like the other edits on it), but in the last couple of years, I somehow became aware of the version on this release:

https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Sub-Culture/release/505855

Not sure where I read it, but I had heard that that version was the one they used on Substance.

So, is the above version different from the one on Substance? If so, I'd quite like a listen if someone can help me out.

Ta.

perspexorange wrote: Hmm. Now you've got me thinking. Originally, I always thought that the Substance edit of Sub-culture was unique to Substance (like the other edits on it), but in the last couple of years, I somehow became aware of the version on this release:

https://www.discogs.com/New-Order-Sub-Culture/release/505855

Not sure where I read it, but I had heard that that version was the one they used on Substance.

So, is the above version different from the one on Substance? If so, I'd quite like a listen if someone can help me out.

Ta.

i have it,

sub-culture (remix edit) 4:57 v sub-culture (substance) 4:48 v, cd, dt

it's slightly different..

as far as substance goes, the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

of course the DAT version was the coolest to collect, but it still had the same versions...

later -1

Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material. Substance and greatest hits albums don't stimulate my mind. Sorry!

Mr Discography wrote:

perspexorange wrote: Best. Compilation. Ever.

Just wish they hadn't had to edit TPK, Sub-culture, Shellshock and Hurt (actually the edit of Sub-culture existed already on one of the single releases, but still).

Still my favourite album after all these years. After being aware of Blue Monday, True Faith and buying the 7" of Touched, this was my proper introduction to the band when I bought it on tape as a 13 year old whilst on holiday in 1988 on the Isle of Wight. Tend to only play the whole thing whilst on holiday even now, as it always captures that mood. In fact, I put 'Ceremony' on the jukebox in a Penzance pub where I'm currently on holiday just last night!

I actually think that as an album it benefits from having the re-recorded Temptation and Confusion, as well as the shorter Shellshock, Sub-culture and Hurt, as the original 12" versions meandered along quite a bit. Agree they should have put the full Perfect Kiss on there though, as the section edited out is one of the finest parts of the track (didn't the unedited full length Perfect Kiss appear on the original Substance double vinyl though)? If it's ever remastered and re-released, the CD should mirror the vinyl tracklisting and include the unabridged Perfect Kiss, but retain the other edits/re-recordings.

Don't recall the Substance edit of Sub-culture being released at the time of the single. There was a Benelux edited remix on 7" at about the same length but it was a different cut - where do you reckon the Substance edit was released?

I totally agree. I can't stand the original Ceremony as it's so tiny and the production is piss poor. Same for Original Temptation (plus Barney plays a bad chord throughout the chorus which ruins the listening).

The 87 versions of temptation and confusion are a million times better and more fitting with the quality of the other songs mixing and production values.

Happy Birthday Substance!!! Of the many compilations that New Order has released since then, it remains the only one worth owning.

Over the years, I've becoming accustomed to its minor revisioning. My only qualm is still "Confusion." Perhaps I am in the minority on that one, but the original version has that original NYC electro hip-hop edge - think "Planet Rock" or "Al-Naafiysh (The Soul)." The original is very much of its time, the birth of electro, but yet still sounds timeless today. The 1987 version just sounds like a dated late 80s synth-pop cover thereof. This of course just my opinion!

-Mike

Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

negative1 wrote: as far as substance goes, the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.

For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album! So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation. But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!

Mr Discography wrote: My original Factory and Centredate cassettes of Substance also have the edited Perfect Kiss. Don't know of any cassette versions that have the full version.

I could swear my UK double cassette has the complete version same as the vinyl, because in 1987 I would get confused when jumping from cassette to CD that part of the song was missing. Wikipedia agrees with me, but the various cassette versions on Discogs don't all list running times. I'll have to cue them up and check.

I have more copies of Substance than any record in my library:

Limited LP for Factory employees - numbered edition of 2,000 (mine is #7-something-something) Factory LP with embossed lettering Factory LP standard US LP with embossed lettering Bootleg repress (using CD edits) on blue and yellow vinyl, with True Faith Remix artwork on the cover Factory white cassette box Factory double cassette in red/blue slipcase US single cassette Factory CD fatbox US CD fatbox

Debaser wrote: Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

negative1 wrote: as far as substance goes, the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.

For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album! So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation. But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!

Well said that man! Was my first real intro to the band too! A brilliant compilation.

Debaser wrote: Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

negative1 wrote: as far as substance goes, the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

I think the CD had the B-sides too.

Fotzepolitic wrote: Substance was ok but up til then I was used to New Order releasing new songs, new singles & albums and all the excitement and interest that brought.Substance was the beginning of endless reissues and greatest hits albums when I would and will always prefer new material.

For some of us Substance was new material! When I was a very small boy I bought my first ever 12" single, it was BM. Not a bad choice eh? But I was oblivious to the singles prior to BM. I bought PCL, Low Life & Brotherhood, but as there was no internet back then and I lived in Ireland where record shops didn't stock much Factory product, I had never heard the first three tracks on Substance until...I bought Substance.

So for me, and I think for many others this was a real gateway to some fantastic tracks that we had simply never heard. Cause hey, they weren't on any studio album! So Substance will always have a special place in my heart. It felt like a massive "completion" excercise re: the singles, and a joyous introduction to some incredible music. It's not a coincidence that Hooky called his JD book Unknown Pleasures and his NO book Substance (complete with the Substance font on the original hard cover). They are the albums best known to the broader public for each band. Even though one of them is a compilation. But it's not just any old compliation, it's the best band compilation in the history of...ever!!

Ah fair enough. I got into New Order around 1983/1984 and early 1984 was my completion phase of buying up all the early 1981/82 singles that I hadn't heard like EGG, Ceremony, Temptation and the Factus 8 ep thing so the songs had been rattling around in my veins for 3+ years before Substance.

'Substance' aimed to compile all their 12" singles, but the track allocation was quite random. In fact, if you compare how the songs were spread across UK / US vinyl / cassette / CD formats, you should get out more.

Debaser wrote: Shouldn't this say happy THIRTIETH birthday? Or does no one want to say that bit 'cause it makes them feel really old?

negative1 wrote: as far as substance goes, the cassette version was cooler, because it had a lot of the b-sides...

I think the CD had the B-sides too.

yes, but its missing 3 of the tracks.

later -1

Having heard True Faith on the jukebox in the common room, I had to get more of this previously undiscovered band 'New Order' & substance hit the spot so very sweetly.

A perfect educational intro, it changed my life musically & was swiftly followed by every NO album as I could afford them and then all JD too.

My first copy was the double cassette from Play Inn in Eccles but some cnut quickly nicked the 'A' tape from my mate's car (along with his stereo) so it was CDs all the way after that.

JD and NO's Substance at least had a point in that they were bringing together material that had become hard to find in that pre-digital age. The London stuff was bollocks, with 'NO International' and 'Best of JD 2008' as the real time-wasters. I know I've said this before, but when Steve was asked to go through the 'entire' NO catalogue, he included Substance but none of London's cash -ns. His bank manager probably knows more about them than he does. With a crazy 28 tracks, the cassette represented far better value than the CD (24) and rip-off vinyl (12) - but paradoxically, it was harder to listen to. I always thought Sub would've been better with just the 'proper' B-sides, so no dub filler and - even better - room for full-length A-sides instead of the edits. The product wouldn't've looked so cool though. (Well I don't always think that. Sometimes I think other things too.)

For years I never played the The Perfect Kiss on the vinyl edition of Substance because I assumed it was the same shortened edit that is on the CD edition .Someone on here, maybe Debaser, brought to my attention not so long back, maybe last year that the version on the vinyl Substance is the original full 12" version which I was gobsmacked to learn.

Also have just remembered that I think I'd never heard the version of Ceremony that is on Substance til I bought the album on its release.That was another reason I wasn't a massive fan of Substance, I don't like the 2nd recording of Ceremony, the version on Substance.I think I'm the only person that prefers and had always preferred the first version ,and had only ever listened to that version (the first version of Ceremony ,the no Gillian version , gold sleeve 7", green sleeve 12") Everyone seems to prefer the second version but that's an argument as old as time.

I much prefer the first Ceremony. I assume they included the second one cos it had the full line-up and it was 'cleaner'.

Debaser wrote:

For some of us Substance was new material!

Like the albino with diarrhea, fair do's. As per my last piste, the Factory compilations - Substance 87, Substance 88, even Still - were worthwhile in that they were making it easier to find stuff. When I first heard Substance, I only 'knew' BM (that shitty 88 7" compromise), TLU (a crappy radio edit that lost all the lush intro) and TF (its equally crappy 7" compromise). The endless spew of pointless, bollock-riddled, please-buy-the-same-songs-86256087608546753869-times-cos-there's-a-remix-that-has-Fairground-Attraction-to-do-with-the-original-except-one-token-line-AWESOME shite started with London and True Faith 94 (arguably Spooky, given the band weren't even speaking to each other). With a strong single, an award-winnning vid and its ensuing compilation LP, 1987 was far more of a breakthrough than the one-off BM and London's make-the-Spice-Girls-look-like-Salinger approach.

Well, maybe if Substance gets a reissue /deluxe super edition it might make me look at it in a more positive light and listen to it more.I always felt a bit that them releasing Substance in 1987 was a quick an easy way of gaining back some ground and success/sales/reputation as it seemed Brotherhood hadn't been an overwhelming critical or commercial success on its release just under a year before.Dunno.

Think New Order played in full the whole of Substance in track order (not the b sides though!) at one of the USA gigs in August or September 1987 if i recall.

Michael Monkhouse wrote: Like the albino with diarrhea, fair do's.

Are...are you sure? Have you Gillian McKeith'd this shit?

Fotzepolitic wrote: Think New Order played in full the whole of Substance in track order (not the b sides though!) at one of the USA gigs in August or September 1987 if i recall.

Irvine Meadows (L.A.), September 12, 1987. Introduction by Tony Wilson, Substance played in order during the main set, encored with Atmosphere, Love Will Tear Us Apart, and Sister Ray. Even though it's an audience recording, it's terrific.

Music Complete wrote:

Fotzepolitic wrote: Think New Order played in full the whole of Substance in track order (not the b sides though!) at one of the USA gigs in August or September 1987 if i recall.

Irvine Meadows (L.A.), September 12, 1987. Introduction by Tony Wilson, Substance played in order during the main set, encored with Atmosphere, Love Will Tear Us Apart, and Sister Ray. Even though it's an audience recording, it's terrific.

Something for the obsessives. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NMja4bDr\_9M8yP9W4G-3OL2cEBwayJ9knZ-NoAul5O8/pub I suffer from premature ejaculation and diarrhea. Easy come, easy go. I can't realistically see a Substance remaster... Interesting fact: In 1994 Hooky told Radio One they were going to release Substance 2 featuring their rerecording of LWTUA and maybe some remixes on the CD. All bollocks of course as they wouldn't even be seen in the same hemisphere together, let alone in a studio massacring an oldie. Speaking of dodgy reissues, PIL's Greatest Hits So Far: the inferior ThisIsNotALoveSong LP version displaces the awesome single, Bad Life isn't included and Careering (not even a single) is. I think the majors do this kind of thing on purpose to give forum users things to point out to each other.

The Guardian has done an article: readers favourite albums turning 30, supposedly prompted by Jacko's Bad.

Substance doesn't make the list, but in the "below the line" comments, "One glaring omission would be Substance by New Order" is currently the most popular comment (if you sort them by recommendations). Although that is subject to change. So there are currently 8 pages of comments - and counting - in addition to the main article. I enjoyed remembering some of the other good stuff from '87 (Prince: Sign o' The Times, The Smiths: Strangeways, REM, Pixies...), especially as this here forum is so quiet at the moment.

Off the top of my head the albums i remember buying in 1987 apart from Substance were Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me by The Cure, Actually by Pet Shop Boys and Darklands by Jesus & Mary Chain.Probs a few more i've long forgotten.Oh and Strangeways Here We Come by The Smiths i associate vividly with 1987.I didn't actually buy it but heard all the songs on John Peel and recorded a lot of them off his end of year festive 50 shows.I was torn because i loved a lot of the songs on Strangeways but around that era there was a bit of rivalry i awlays thought between New Order and The Smiths, aggravated by Morrissey seemingly dissing JD and NO a few times in years previously.Peel's end of year festive 50 was regularly my chance to catch up and record off the radio all the songs i hadn't heard or even heard of over the previous 12 months, what with the interweb/YouTube/peer to peer sharing not around back then,obvs.

Listened to some of The Cure's Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss me (triple) album a while back for the first time since god knows when and it sounded pretty dated apart from the still magnificent Just Like Heaven.

All I remember about 1987 is telling a kid who used to bully me my mother was seriously ill. He believed me and left me alone. For a week. Then he started bullying me again. Why is life so unfair? There was another kid who bullied me and he was a Prince fan so I bought Sign of the Times. I didn't even like it but I was desperste to be accepted. Didn't work. Still, the way Prince says 'Really' in Housequake made me laugh. Good times.