Joy Division vs. New Order

Having had this discussion with a few of my friends, I thought I should ask your opinion. I feel that New Order and Joy Division are very closely related, and trying to make a separation between the two would be difficult. I think that Joy Division is a great part of New Order's past and to ignore that would be stupid.

However, my friends seems to think the opposite. Most of them say that JD and NO are two *entirely* different bands, bearing almost no connection at all. People who say this are mostly people who prefer Joy Division to New Order, or people who've only heard of New ORder and not JD.

So, what's your take on this?

I think they are both inextricably linked in changing the way people think and feel about music. other than that, there are obvious similarities, such as morris enthusiastic drumming patterns, hoooky's futuristicly melocholic bass lines, barney's scratchy guitar cords; although these days he seems to be concentrating more on vocals the lazy sod that's how they are linked they are different in the fact of the 2 people i've not mentioned yet ie. ian and gillian i'm sure most would agree, they're quite different ian being :dead: and gillian being as in the perfect kiss video

need i say more

Hooky Monster has more or less hit the nail squarely on the head. Neither Joy Division or New Order represent what is known as 'formula pop', they are without doubt man 'meets machine' in perfect unison, in equal parts, one unable to exist without the other. I remember the day Ian Curtis died, it was almost worse than losing family because these guys music moved you and affected you in a way that would never leave you, not that you would ever want it to. New Order have done the same, from the jangly opening of the original Ceremony to the dance/rock fusion that has become their hallmark. They are the greatest bands of the last generation, they should have been as big as Pink Floyd or U2 but for god sake dont get me started on that one, i'd ramble on for hours.......................................

As Hooky and Barney have said several times - (particularly in the New Order book)JD and NO are the same band. If IC had lived JD would still have sounded like NO today, because of the music that they were all listening to.

It's comforting to hear that it's not the whole world against me. I was starting to doubt myself. I certainly feel as if they're one and the same.

Well, the computer messed up, but what I said basically was that yes, JD and NO are one in the same, and you can't seperate them without doing a disservice to the other.

Nicolas, I dont mean to be podantic but the name was changed after Curtis's suicide because the remaining three members felt they could'nt continue as Joy Division and wanted to make a fresh start with a new identity, NOT because of some agreement, it was never even contemplated that one of them would ever leave.

Eh, who Genesis is might be off topic, but still, I know he liked New Order/Joy Division, so who knows, perhaps there is a connection here with the subject "Joy Division vs. New Order"?

Anyone heard him? avantgarde from Industrial rec.

In Ideal for Living and TFAD, the subject of a name change is brought up, so I think it's fairly certain such was brought up while Ian was alive. I imagine once they'd found the core members of Joy Division (Curtis, Morris, Sumner, and Hook) that they recognized that special chemistry would be lost if one member left and they tried to continue as Joy Division

There was an agreement that if the line up of JD ever changed they would change their name.

Originally posted by Nicolas LeBlanc > Originally posted by Muffy> Nicolas, I dont mean to be podantic but the name was changed after Curtis's suicide because the remaining three members felt they could'nt continue as Joy Division and wanted to make a fresh start with a new identity, NOT because of some agreement, it was never even contemplated that one of them would ever leave.

Possible, I'm not a New Order Encyclopedia :D I'm sure I heard about that agreement somewhere..

Well, I'll take your word.

(As for the reply to my own message, I have no clue how that happened!!)

There was indeed such an agreement, I'm pretty sure about that.

Nicolas, a thousand apologies, you were right, as confirmed in this thread and in the pages of three, (so far), JD books I have. Is'nt it funny how the rum dulls ones grey matter of a weekend!! :o

[They are the greatest bands of the last generation, they should have been as big as Pink Floyd or U2 but for god sake dont get me started on that one, i'd ramble on for hours.......................................

Muffy, I think that´s an excellent subject for a new thread. We all know that New Order are one of the best bands ever, why haven´t they achieved the success of say, U2. Lazyness and lack of drive may have played a part but I am sure those are not the only reasons.

I'm almost certain the reason New Order are not as big as U2, for example, is that the Order have never wanted to join the music treadmill. Instead, they've burrowed their own furtile path in the music biz - doing the things THEY wanted to, WHEN they wanted to; albeit sometimes misguided by the late, and rather great Rob Gretton. New Order make music cos they love it, not cos they have to. This has been pretty much the case over the past 24 years, except for a few years, mainly just after they signed to London Records - as London wanted some return on their investment in the worlds' finest band EVER.

But what the hell do I know? These are merely some thoughts for you to mull over.

What really annoys me is that New Order is being mentioned as "another one of those bands from the 80's trying to make a come-back" Which is so not true!! New Order themselves has always stressed that they do this for themselves, not becuase they're expected to. I don't ever think they have been concerned about what people in general, or their fans for that matter, will think of their music. I don't say that the money doesn't matter for them, but they're not big SELLOUTS like so many other bands just getting together again to make a tour and an album and a big bundle of money.. *grr*

Ok Humberto, you asked for it, a new thread on that very subject will be started on the morrow. But don't say you were'nt warned!!

Ah, yes, the age old "Why aren't New Order as big as U2?" The simple fact is Bono et al aimed for superstardom whereas the Manc lads wanted simply to carry on after their friend's untimely death and make music they loved. The fact that they're castigated for not being huge in an era where prepackaged divas and heavy metal uber-enthusiasts reign (am I talking about the late 80s or 90s?) is not so bad. Believe me, music as wonderful as JD/NO's was meant to be sought out by an inquisitive mind

Trevor, you speak sense, perfect sense. Have your say on the new thread if you will, it should be interesting.

To love the music of one group (either JD or NO) while totally disregarding the other is like reading a great work of literature, but only up to a certain point (either going from the beginning to the middle without finishing, or starting in the middle and going to the end). Sure You'd get what you want, but what you miss out on is important

Seb: If you think you're going to to find out by lokking at my profile in tha fan section you're mistaken. Heh. I didn't include a picture *giggles* No, seriously. I'm a very atypical "cute blonde swedish girl", since I hav e dark hair. ;-)

Originally posted by Maria Seb:If you think you're going to to find out by lokking at my profile in tha fan section you're mistaken. Heh. I didn't include a picture *giggles*No, seriously.I'm a very atypical "cute blonde swedish girl", since I hav e dark hair. ;-)

:D I guess this is the reason why you have not included an email address too

Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by Maria> What really annoys me is that New Order is being mentioned as "another one of those bands from the 80's trying to make a come-back" > Which is so not true!! New Order themselves has always stressed that they do this for themselves, not becuase they're expected to. I don't ever think they have been concerned about what people in general, or their fans for that matter, will think of their music.> I don't say that the money doesn't matter for them, but they're not big SELLOUTS like so many other bands just getting together again to make a tour and an album and a big bundle of money.. *grr*

The huge topic of interest for me would be to find out if you're a typical cute blonde swedish girl.

Woops, I guess I should't say that here!!!!!!

Seb's getting the horn again.;)

There are certain privilages to hosting a website, eh Seb?

Originally posted by Trevor Seigler Believe me, music as wonderful as JD/NO's was meant to be sought out by an inquisitive mind

You´re spot on there Trevor. Small wonder you live in the Walhalla!

Walhalla is the national center for research into the many nuiances of the Manchester scene...okay it's not, but when you've got Lynerd Skynerd and country music to choose from, it's no wonder I seek refuge in the Brits

I am married to New Order........but Joy Divison is my mistress

Liv

I didn't know you was married Liv, and swung both ways in order to have a mistress? Sooooo, have you any musical children then?

Originally posted by Hooky Monster I didn't know you was married Liv, and swung both ways in order to have a mistress? Sooooo, have you any musical children then?

My Parents are Duran Duran... so my children must be the welsh offspring, Manics, Stereophonics and my little baby Cerys....

Jesus my head hurts.... what have i been taking....

Liv

My daddy was a roadie for Skynerd....well, not sure about that, but I do believe most 20-something year old males in the South were either drafted for Vietnam in the Seventies, or they could roadie for Skynerd instead. I understand it was a matter of states' rights....