Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance
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I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
Andy wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
Johnny James wrote:
Andy wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
Sad news. I figured Academy was a given but it's disappointing to learn that there isn't much available. Still, it's better to learn this now to temper our expectations.
Johnny James wrote: There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
I really wish there was a soundboard recording of the show at New York City's Pier 84, August 25, 1987 (my 17th birthday). Otherwise known as the Chapter III bootleg, it's my favorite New Order gig, and they play four songs from Brotherhood.
Someone could take a shot at combining the known recordings into one composite mix.
i don't know what would be needed on the cd version. besides a remaster. a deluxe version would get out of hand with all the mixes etc.
of course, doing a vinyl boxset would be easy. just take all the current remasters. throw in true faith (uk), and true faith remix (australian) and call it a day.
so they would be:------------------1 ceremony 12 ceremony 23 everythings gone green4 temptation - hurt5 blue monday6 confusion7 thieves like us8 murder9 perfect kiss10 subculture11 shellshock12 state of the nation13 bizarre love triangle14 true faith15 true faith remix=====1 greenNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/122 white blueNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/12Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Reissue, Repress, Cream/Blue Sleeve3 everythings gone greenLabel: Factory Benelux – FBNL 8Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium4 temptation - hurtLabel: Factory – fac 63Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK5 blue mondayLabel: Factory – FAC 73Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK6 confusionLabel: Factory – Fac 93Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Embossed SleeveCountry: UK7 thieves like usLabel: Factory – FAC 103Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK8 murderLabel: Factory Benelux – FBN 22Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium9 perfect kissLabel: Factory – Fac 123Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Stereo, Black Inner Sleeve, MPO PressingCountry: UK10 subcultureLabel: Factory – fac 133Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK11 shellshockLabel: Factory – Fac 143Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK12 state of the nationLabel: Factory – FAC 153Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK13 bizarre love triangleLabel: Factory – FAC 163Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK14 true faithLabel: Factory – Fac 183Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK15 true faith remixLabel: Factory Records Australasia – Fac 183RFormat: Vinyl, 12", 33 RPMCountry: Australia
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negative1 wrote: i don't know what would be needed on the cd version. besides a remaster. a deluxe version would get out of hand with all the mixes etc.
of course, doing a vinyl boxset would be easy. just take all the current remasters. throw in true faith (uk), and true faith remix (australian) and call it a day.
so they would be:------------------1 ceremony 12 ceremony 23 everythings gone green4 temptation - hurt5 blue monday6 confusion7 thieves like us8 murder9 perfect kiss10 subculture11 shellshock12 state of the nation13 bizarre love triangle14 true faith15 true faith remix=====1 greenNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/122 white blueNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/12Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Reissue, Repress, Cream/Blue Sleeve3 everythings gone greenLabel: Factory Benelux – FBNL 8Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium4 temptation - hurtLabel: Factory – fac 63Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK5 blue mondayLabel: Factory – FAC 73Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK6 confusionLabel: Factory – Fac 93Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Embossed SleeveCountry: UK7 thieves like usLabel: Factory – FAC 103Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK8 murderLabel: Factory Benelux – FBN 22Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium9 perfect kissLabel: Factory – Fac 123Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Stereo, Black Inner Sleeve, MPO PressingCountry: UK10 subcultureLabel: Factory – fac 133Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK11 shellshockLabel: Factory – Fac 143Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK12 state of the nationLabel: Factory – FAC 153Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK13 bizarre love triangleLabel: Factory – FAC 163Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK14 true faithLabel: Factory – Fac 183Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK15 true faith remixLabel: Factory Records Australasia – Fac 183RFormat: Vinyl, 12", 33 RPMCountry: Australialater
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Plus the Procession 7" as a bonus ;)
Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Mr. Disco wrote: Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Yes, Fotz beat you to it in the Ceremony section.
Debaser wrote:
Mr. Disco wrote: Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Yes, Fotz beat you to it in the Ceremony section.
I guess because they discuss the upcoming gigs. But it makes sense to mention the reissue in this thread.
Does this count as an announcement of a Definitive Substance set? There is speculation that he meant the Brotherhood box. Would you be able to clarify this, Johnny James?
Good news. Given how far in advance they have to pick tracks and prepare the releases, I guess this means it might be coming between the 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' definitive editions. Or perhaps an accompanying release at the same time as 'Brotherhood' so the 12" singles from 'State Of The Nation' to 'Blue Monday 1988' can all come out simultaneously without us lot having to worry about whether each should be associated with 'Brotherhood' or 'Substance'! I assume the live versions they spoke about in the interview would be a DVD rather than bonus live CD.
I've stated it several times before, but I'd do the following:
- Double vinyl with same 12 tracks and versions as original LP (including 1987 re-recordings of 'Temptation' and 'Confusion', 'Substance' edits of 'Shellshock' and 'Sub-Culture' and the full length 'The Perfect Kiss' - which the original LP included)
- 3 x CD containing all tracks on the original double cassette release (including 1987 re-recordings of 'Temptation' and 'Confusion' and 'Substance' edits of 'Shellshock', 'Sub-Culture' and 'Hurt' as per the original tracklist), with following changes: --Full length 'The Perfect Kiss' 12", as per the original LP version --Correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' (the original 'Substance' featured the alternate version, not the original 12" version) --Put 'Murder' between 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on CD2 (to make CD1 have the same 12 tracks as the original vinyl) --Obviously get the track titles the right way round for 'Cries & Whispers' followed by 'Mesh' this time!
It' s my (and many others') favourite album, so no need to mess with the running order or track selection in any major way - otherwise it ceases to be the 'Substance' I know and love.
Also simultaneously release the 7" singles digitally, so they can accompany the 12" singles released digitally so far, and we can finally get digital versions of the B-side edits and Dub edits yet to be released digitally - be great for these to be available on digital stores and streaming at long last.
Johnny, now it's been "announced" in some form, anything you can tell us about where in the Definitive Edition schedule the 'Substance' reissue is expected to land?
EDIT: But yes, reckon it's very likely Steve meant Brotherhood and said Substance by mistake. Perhaps Johnny can confirm?
I've always imagined there was a soundboard recording of this made for posterity as it's a very particular setlist. However, I've only ever found the audience recording. The intro to "True Faith" might be problematic for release though, and not just for borrowing "The Passenger"!:
Here you go :
links and more... 4xcd and 2xcd
looks like a good listing... have at it:
4CD Definitive Edition US - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwan-20 CA - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwanca-20 UK - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwan-21
2CD Expanded Edition (contains CD1 and CD2 only) US - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwan-20 CA - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwanca-20 UK - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwan-21
Tracklist [CD1]
- Ceremony (Version 2) [2019 Remaster]
- Everythings Gone Green (2019 Remaster)
- Temptation '87 (2023 Remaster)
- Blue Monday (2020 Remaster)
- Confusion '87 (2023 Remaster)
- Thieves Like Us (2020 Remaster)
- The Perfect Kiss (2022 Remaster)
- Sub-Culture (John Robie Remix) [Substance Edit] [2023 Remaster]
- Shellshock (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
- State Of The Nation (2023 Remaster)
- Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
- True Faith (2023 Digital Master)
[CD2]
- In A Lonely Place (2019 Remaster)
- Procession (2015 Remaster)
- Cries And Whispers (2019 Remaster)
- Hurt (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
- The Beach (2020 Remaster)
- Confusion (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
- Lonesome Tonight (2020 Remaster)
- Murder (2020 Remaster)
- Thieves Like Us (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
- The Kiss Of Death (2022 Remaster)
- Shame Of The Nation (2023 Remaster)
- 1963 (2023 Digital Master)
[CD3]
- Ceremony (Version 1) [2019 Remaster]
- Mesh (2019 Remaster)
- Temptation (2018 Remaster)
- Confusion (2020 Remaster)
- Perfect Pit (2022 Remaster)
- Dub-Vulture (John Robie Remix) [2022 Remaster]
- Shellcock (2022 Remaster)
- Bizarre Dub Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix)
- True Dub (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
- Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Remaster)
- True Faith (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Digital Master]
[CD4]
- Ceremony (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Everythings Gone Green (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Temptation (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Blue Monday (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Confusion (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Thieves Like Us (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- The Perfect Kiss (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- Sub-Culture (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- Shellshock (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- State Of The Nation (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Bizarre Love Triangle (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- True Faith (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
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Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
Everything from the original cassette version, plus bonus original Temptation, original Confusion, Perfect Pit, True Dub, True Faith Remix, Ceremony (original), Confusion Dub '87. Plus Irvine Meadows gig where they played a Substance set.
I think the only thing missing of note from 12"s would be Confused Beats and Confusion Rough Mix, which isn't much of a loss (and would be a bit Confusion heavy). Oh, and full Sub-Culture and Shellshock mixes (again, no great loss, given how repetitive they are). Hurt appears to be the edit, as well. Assuming TPK is full-length.
Any press release for this?
Incidentally, UK links don't work.
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Ace! I look forward to that. Still - looks mighty tasty, Johnny. Take my money already.
perspexorange wrote: Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
Everything from the original cassette version, plus bonus original Temptation, original Confusion, Perfect Pit, True Dub, True Faith Remix, Ceremony (original), Confusion Dub '87. Plus Irvine Meadows gig where they played a Substance set.
i wouldn't call it perfect, there are still tracks and edits missing. what happened to the paradise remix? and the remix edits?
other confusion mixes, etc.. as you mentioned.
Any press release for this?
Incidentally, UK links don't work.
yes, it said that UK - Available for pre-order soon:
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negative1 wrote:
perspexorange wrote: Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
i wouldn't call it perfect, there are still tracks and edits missing. what happened to the paradise remix? and the remix edits?
other confusion mixes, etc.. as you mentioned.
That's why I said 'nigh on', meaning 'near' perfect. ![[;)]](/emoticons/wink.gif){kind=small}
I guess they had to make a judgment call. To include full length Hurt, Sub-Culture, Shellshock, 2 x Confusion remixes, Paradise remix would've presumably meant an extra disc, some wasted space, and a fair amount of repetitive remixes (especially Confusion). There's probably a handful of other things too, but nothing major (True Faith 7" remix, exclusive edit of Sub-Culture on the Factory Banelux release, the soundtrack variants of Shellshock etc.), but there's an argument that these aren't the 12" versions anyway, and that's what Substance was all about - 12"s plus b-sides. If you include everything, you have to include 7"s, which would just get a bit stupid (and not what Substance was all about).
I guess they could've skipped the Irvine Meadows disc to make room for missing mixes, but I for one am glad that this is included. I'd imagine that the inclusion of that might tempt some fans who are on the fence on buying it, as it's 'new material'.
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Digital Master) already available.
Jcp7 wrote: Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Digital Master) already available.
Not sure why all of the qobuz tracks say 2023 Digital Master. Surely they haven’t been remastered again.
I think the descriptions given in -ve1’s post are probably more accurate.
perspexorange wrote:
Not sure why all of the qobuz tracks say 2023 Digital Master. Surely they haven’t been remastered again.
I think the descriptions given in -ve1’s post are probably more accurate.
Juno has Confusion Dub '87 as a 2023 DM as well.
No Box set with vinyl mentioned yet, surely will be a vinyl version even if not a box set?
Andy wrote:
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Pretty much, it was something we can deliver this year rather than next.
My favourite ever album finally gets a deluxe version - nice! Very happy with this tracklisting. Looks like they've paid some attention to suggestions from myself and others on here about not mucking about with the versions too much - glad to see most of the 'Substance Edits' have been kept apart from 'The Perfect Kiss'
Interesting they've preserved the original 2 x CD running order, but glad to see all the tracks from the original tape + more swept up on CD3. My first version of Substance as a 13 year old was the double tape, so I'll be able to reassemble a remastered version of the whole thing from this CD set!
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
Will there be a vinyl version?
Time to re-release all the 7" singles digitally with remastered A and B side edits to accompany the release?
Well done!
Mr Discography wrote: My favourite ever album finally gets a deluxe version - nice! Very happy with this tracklisting. Looks like they've paid some attention to suggestions from myself and others on here about not mucking about with the versions too much - glad to see most of the 'Substance Edits' have been kept apart from 'The Perfect Kiss'
Interesting they've preserved the original 2 x CD running order, but glad to see all the tracks from the original tape + more swept up on CD3. My first version of Substance as a 13 year old was the double tape, so I'll be able to reassemble a remastered version of the whole thing from this CD set!
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
Will there be a vinyl version?
Time to re-release all the 7" singles digitally with remastered A and B side edits to accompany the release?
Well done!
How about a box set of all the 7” singles in original Sleeves A 32 single box!!
Mr Discography wrote:
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
The listings leaked so far seem to be from an early draft that we've now corrected, it's also not in San Bernadino. The fact that they say TPK is a Substance Edit shows that it's a copy and paste mistake.....
However, by coincidence, the live Subculture/Shellshock have in fact been edited, the artwork will explain (Subculture comes along around the 45 minute mark ;).
Ooh! It's been quiet here recently so I've only just stumbled on this news. I guess Steve wasn't mistaken when he said in that radio interview that he was dealing with Substance (not Brotherhood).
perspexorange wrote: I guess they had to make a judgment call. To include full length Hurt, Sub-Culture, Shellshock, 2 x Confusion remixes, Paradise remix would've presumably meant an extra disc, some wasted space, and a fair amount of repetitive remixes (especially Confusion).
Johnny James wrote:
Andy wrote:
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Pretty much, it was something we can deliver this year rather than next.
Well Johnny James, Paradise remix is a no brainer for Brotherhood then. Particularly as you said there wasn't much in the way of extras for that album. Brotherhood's going to be the runt of the liitter isn't it?
neil larkcom wrote: How about a box set of all the 7” singles in original Sleeves A 32 single box!!
Fleece me baby one more time! I'd probably get suckered into this TBH.
2xlp vinyl versions are up also.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHTZ9KB5?tag=shtv-20
looks like you'll have to make your own boxset for it.
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Very disappointing for us vinyl types that after all this time we're only getting a 2LP set :(
3*12"s released :
- True Faith
- True Faith remix
- BM 88
That Twitter video link says ‘featuring b-sides’ and ‘available on vinyl for the first time’.
I can’t make out if the two sentences are meant to be read as one or separately.
If the former, I don’t think the b-sides are on the vinyl, are they? If the latter, ‘Substance’ has been available on vinyl before.
Or have I completely misunderstood?
Glad the 12”s are being released. It will be a bit odd to have these three released before State and BLT. But, no problem. Presumably, Touched will get released either alongside Brotgerhood or Technique.
perspexorange wrote: That Twitter video link says ‘featuring b-sides’ and ‘available on vinyl for the first time’.
I can’t make out if the two sentences are meant to be read as one or separately.
If the former, I don’t think the b-sides are on the vinyl, are they? If the latter, ‘Substance’ has been available on vinyl before.
Or have I completely misunderstood?
Glad the 12”s are being released. It will be a bit odd to have these three released before State and BLT. But, no problem. Presumably, Touched will get released either alongside Brotgerhood or Technique.
It says the first time in 30 years
Ah. Sorry. Was watching it play in a small window and didn’t realise words had been cut off on the bottom of the video.
My bad. As you were…
A Red & Blue vinyl is available too from a few limited suppliers.
https://www.roughtrade.com/gb/product/new-order/substance-agp2cm#vinyl-lp-red-plus-x2
yes, already ordered the mega deluxe bundle, along with colored vinyl.
nice seeing the cassettes coming back, along with some posters, tshirts, and the 12 inch singles too.
very good deal.
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New Order announce ‘Substance 1987’ collection reissues
New Order have announced reissued editions of their classic compilation album ‘Substance 1987’ – find all the details below.
Originally released via the legendary Factory Records, the record featured all of the Manchester band’s singles up to that point in their 12″ forms, as well as many of their respective B-sides.
‘Substance 1987’ also contained newly-recorded versions of the songs ‘Temptation’ and Confusion’. Other tracks that appeared as part of the collection included ‘Blue Monday’, ‘Bizarre Love Triangle’ and ‘Ceremony’.
Today (September 13) New Order have detailed a remastered set of formats of ‘Substance 1987’, which are due for release on November 10 via Warner. You can pre-order your copy here.
“We’re pleased to announce the remastered and reissued edition of ‘Substance’ on vinyl for the first time in 30 years,” the group wrote alongside a preview video on social media.
Additionally, fans will be able to purchase the 2023 version of the album in the following formats: 2CD, 4CD deluxe edition, 2LP blue/red coloured vinyl (retail exclusive), and double cassette.
Reissues of the 12″ singles ‘True Faith’, ‘True Faith (Remix)’ and ‘Blue Monday 88’ are on offer too, all of which have been remastered.
The 4CD version includes the original 2CD set, remastered with two additional CDs. CD3 expands the collection with alternate versions and extra B-sides. CD4 features an unreleased concert, ‘Live From Irvine Meadows Amphitheatre, California 1987’, where New Order played the entire album in sequence.
‘Substance 1987’ is the group’s biggest-selling album to date. It is regarded as one of the best-ever ‘Greatest Hits’ compilations, with Rolling Stone twice including it in its ‘500 Greatest Albums Of All Time’ list, first in 2003 and later in 2012.
Back in 2020, ‘Substance 1987′ returned to online streaming services after being removed five years prior.
Meanwhile, New Order are set to kick off their 2023 European and UK arena tour next Thursday (September 21). See the full schedule below, and find any remaining tickets here.
SEPTEMBER 21– Royal Arena, Copenhagen 23 – Ziggo Dome, Amsterdam 26 – Zénith, Paris 29 – The O2, London
OCTOBER 1 – 3Arena, Dublin 5 – OVO Hydro, Glasgow 7 – First Direct Arena, Leeds
neil larkcom wrote: …£180 spent… Sucked in by the limited cassette and poster
Mmmm Make that £240!!! Sneaky coloured vinyl….
There is a problem with the track list on the official store!
CD 3
Ceremony (Original) Mesh Ceremony (12”) Confusion (Original 12”) Dub Vulture Shellcock Bizarre Dub Triangle True Dub Confusion (Dub 87) True Faith (Remix)
Johnny James wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
The listings leaked so far seem to be from an early draft that we've now corrected, it's also not in San Bernadino. The fact that they say TPK is a Substance Edit shows that it's a copy and paste mistake.....
However, by coincidence, the live Subculture/Shellshock have in fact been edited, the artwork will explain (Subculture comes along around the 45 minute mark ;).
First few seconds of "Shellshock" missing on my boot (presumably down to a tape flip). I was hoping this official version would be from a better source.
Interested to see if all the between-song banter will make the cut (such as Bernard's question to the audience before "The Passenger"/"True Faith")...
Interesting that the cassette reissue has the original 2CD tracklist rather than the longer 1987 cassette tracklist. Understandable, as I had to buy the tape twice as cassette two was so long it got chewed up several times (thinner tape)!
Being of the camp that did not think that a "Definitive Edition" box set was warranted for a "Substance" reissue, I am glad that the band decided to reissue it as a standalone release. With this being a popular title for more casual fans of New Order, I imagine this will sell rather well.
Johnny James - Why wasn't a "Touched by the Hand of God" single released in conjunction with the "True Faith" and "Blue Monday 88" singles? With it having been released in 1987 and having "Substance" related B-sides on the CD single, I thought it would make more sense to reissue it with "Substance" versus "Brotherhood" or "Technique."
-Mike
Johnny, is the live disc sourced from the soundboard, or is it the audience recording that's circulated?
A bit disappointed that there isn’t a dvd or blu ray included
Was there really no useable concert video material?
I still haven't got round to buying the original Substance so not much chance with this. I objected to the 87 versions - I know, moan moan moan.
The Ruts wrote: https://twitter.com/neworder/status/1701943814846607411
Lets give that an embed.
[TWITTER]1701943814846607411[/TWITTER]
so, the colored vinyl is being picked up by bullmoose, and a few other sellers now.
interestingly, they are saying that it is a Record Store Release, so maybe copies are being allocated for that also.
Colored transparent vinyl shouldn't sound any worse than black, because black is just a color too.
Now if was these bootleg (counterfeit) marbled ones, thats a different story, maybe those were lathe cuts.
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Mr Discography wrote: Interesting that the cassette reissue has the original 2CD tracklist rather than the longer 1987 cassette tracklist. Understandable, as I had to buy the tape twice as cassette two was so long it got chewed up several times (thinner tape)!
It will replicate the original cassette tracklist, Murder on Tape 1 and a few of the CD3 tracks on Tape 2. There are a few tracklist errors that we're trying to iron out in the press etc.
steinomite wrote: Being of the camp that did not think that a "Definitive Edition" box set was warranted for a "Substance" reissue, I am glad that the band decided to reissue it as a standalone release. With this being a popular title for more casual fans of New Order, I imagine this will sell rather well.
Johnny James - Why wasn't a "Touched by the Hand of God" single released in conjunction with the "True Faith" and "Blue Monday 88" singles? With it having been released in 1987 and having "Substance" related B-sides on the CD single, I thought it would make more sense to reissue it with "Substance" versus "Brotherhood" or "Technique."
-Mike
They wanted to do BM because it's the 40th anniversary.
Doing 3 now and 3 with Brotherhood also works ok, perhaps the sequencing is a bit out, but in the end that doesn't make much difference.
50poundnote wrote: Johnny, is the live disc sourced from the soundboard, or is it the audience recording that's circulated?
https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact/2560/NEW_ORDER_MASTER_TAPE_1987
Here is the master, an old and mouldy desk tape.
Johnny James wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Johnny, is the live disc sourced from the soundboard, or is it the audience recording that's circulated?
https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact/2560/NEW_ORDER_MASTER_TAPE_1987
Here is the master, an old and mouldy desk tape.
Any chance of a release of the other 3 songs at that gig ??
the superdeluxedition article :
https://superdeluxeedition.com/news/new-order-substance-1987-reissue/
later | || | | | || ne gative 1
Really minor point, and a very anal point to make, but I hope the duration of the gaps between the tracks has been kept the same as the original Substance release. I know the original so well, that I'll expect Subculture to kick in the very moment that odd "goblin" (or whatever it is) sound effect stops at the end of The Perfect Kiss', rather than have two seconds of silence between the tracks. I've often wondered if remastered albums preserve the original length of silences between the tracks.
Johnny, has this version of Substance been mastered specifically as its own album from the original Substance master tapes, or does it just complie the individual versions of singles that have already been remastered as their own recent digital re-eleases without any further mastering or level adjusting?
Ordered the red/blue vinyl yesterday from Rough Trade. £59.83 inc. faster/tracked delivery. And just ordered 4CD, plus 3 x 12"s from Amazon.co.uk. £73.96 with Prime, plus 'lowest price' guarantee.
Was tempted by the t-shirt, but decided against it for he time being.
A lot of money spent, but the LP is worth it. Best compilation ever? Probably.
Col72 wrote:
Johnny James wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Johnny, is the live disc sourced from the soundboard, or is it the audience recording that's circulated?
https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact/2560/NEW_ORDER_MASTER_TAPE_1987
Here is the master, an old and mouldy desk tape.
Any chance of a release of the other 3 songs at that gig ??
It would require an additional disc, which is surely why they decided against it.
A nice gesture for completists would be to make them available for download, but that seems an unlikely prospect.
perspexorange wrote: Ordered the red/blue vinyl yesterday from Rough Trade. £59.83 inc. faster/tracked delivery. And just ordered 4CD, plus 3 x 12"s from Amazon.co.uk. £73.96 with Prime, plus 'lowest price' guarantee.
Was tempted by the t-shirt, but decided against it for he time being.
A lot of money spent, but the LP is worth it. Best compilation ever? Probably.
I will probably just do the 4CD set ($49.99 US), as I've no use for cassettes or vinyl. I would be swayed to spring for the Ultimate Bundle ($149.99 US) if it was presented in a nice box/package, but there's no indication that's the case. If it's just all the items shipped in a cardboard box, I'll keep my cash.
perspexorange wrote: Ordered the red/blue vinyl yesterday from Rough Trade. £59.83 inc. faster/tracked delivery. And just ordered 4CD, plus 3 x 12"s from Amazon.co.uk. £73.96 with Prime, plus 'lowest price' guarantee.
Was tempted by the t-shirt, but decided against it for he time being.
A lot of money spent, but the LP is worth it. Best compilation ever? Probably.
It’s definitely the best comp ever in my eyes. [:eek] however going to give this one a miss. I’m lucky enough to own the substance promo (not for sale unless desperate) and the original mass release vinyl as well as the CD. The 3 x12” on offer my originals are all decent condition. However my true faith remix has only a paper inner sleeve. I can’t remember if it ever had a proper inner sleeve, can anyone else remember? Hardly ever played BM 88 so that’s pristine. Hammered the original TF but still in decent condition.
I’m a vinyl man so not too bothered about cd’s although I will download the Irvine meadows gig.
It’s a great package though just not in need of it. All the other recent rereleases are in boxes which are nicely displayed so I may have also been tempted if box set.
Looking forward to brotherhood box set as my vinyl for that album is in poor shape so could do with a nice remaster. Same with BLT 12 which has lots of pops and crackles.
The Shadow
I have several Remixes..some have A proper inner printed sleeve whilst a USA or Aussie one has a plastic inner sleeve.
In the days when I had no other New Order collecting friends and very little info on such records it was quite fun finding these in shops around Lancashire. ![[hi]](/emoticons/hi.gif){kind=small}
I too own Number 50 Substance promo that I got from The Record Collector..Mark Eastwood in Minty mint condition for approx £30 around 1990. Lovely..I should play it sometime.😎
The Shadow wrote: Although the red and blue vinyl does look good, may be tempted yet!
Ha! The curse of the vinyl / NO collector...also trying to hold out buying something I ultimately don't need. But deep down you know it won't last ;)
Grabbed both vinyls, both CDs, the three 12"s and cassettes. No tee or poster for now.
All coming from a variety of sources as the shipping down here is almost as horrendous as local retail mark-up.
The Shadow wrote:
The 3 x12” on offer my originals are all decent condition. However my true faith remix has only a paper inner sleeve. I can’t remember if it ever had a proper inner sleeve, can anyone else remember? Hardly ever played BM 88 so that’s pristine. Hammered the original TF but still in decent condition.
I have the original double vinyl Substance and the only 12" I don't have is Blue Monday 88, so that's the only one I'll pick up here (will probably get the CD too for the live gig and remasters)
But a question on the pricing of the 12"s here
Looking back at my Amazon orders and the new ones that I picked up for the Movement and PCL sets were all £10
The ones that came out with Low-Life were £14
This time they are all £18 on Amazon
Has the cost of vinyl really nearly doubled in 4 years??
Yeah think I picked up most of the early 12" up for less than £10, I suppose the cost of producing a 12" can't be far off the same as a LP, do any bands bring out 12" nowadays - minimum is an EP probably?
Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio
I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...
I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.
Not much to add . Not sure i'll buy. Will probably just listen on streaming. I did buy the vinyl back in August 1987 though i was always more enthusiastic about new material. I'd been buying up all the 12"'s in the previous few years before so i was too familiar i think with the songs.
I guess it would have been amazing to hear all the 12"'s for the first time back in 1987 with a copy of Substance but hey. The vinyl i bought back in 87 was the gatefold. I just walked into Our Price and purchased. I sold a load of records in the late 80s including Substance gatefold. Duh, what an idiot, it's worth a few hundred now, right? The vinyl i jave now is just a slip 12" sleeve the 2 discs insert into. Listening a while back i wasn't blown away by the audio quailty. Maybe it's not even a genuine? So that's a reason i suppose to buy the reissue.
Funny to think now, Substance was announced in the music press only 2 or 3 weeks before release back then. It's 2 months at least these days.
Andy wrote: Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio
I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...
I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.
I've just read that link and i'm glad i'm not an audiophile if they go into things that deeply!
What i do know is the 2023 remaster of confusion dub on spotify sounds ok to me through my decent(ish) headphones
I'll be buying the cd and maybe the vinyl....just to look at and stick with my others as i don't have a cd player or record player anymore!
lee wrote:
Andy wrote: Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio
I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...
I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.
I've just read that link and i'm glad i'm not an audiophile if they go into things that deeply!
What i do know is the 2023 remaster of confusion dub on spotify sounds ok to me through my decent(ish) headphones
I'll be buying the cd and maybe the vinyl....just to look at and stick with my others as i don't have a cd player or record player anymore!
i like collecting, so most of my stuff will all stay sealed just to go along with it.
i already have the tracks digitally already for most of them.
later | || || | | ne gative 1
ROCKET MICK wrote: I too own Number 50 Substance promo that I got from The Record Collector..Mark Eastwood in Minty mint condition for approx £30 around 1990. Lovely..I should play it sometime.😎
I was luckily enough to pay not much many years ago, now goes for over £600 on discogs. I’ve got number 292
What's next apart from the Albums? Any possibilty of the FACTUS 81-82 EP expanded? All the available tracks from that period in a nice double CD package, no books or funny coloured vinyl just songs that people want to listen to. Mesh, C&W, IALP, EGG etc. £19.99. I'd buy it!
I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!
Like No Other wrote: I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!
Holiday in the sun..Substance abuse. Ffs sounds Fantastic😎
tapebias wrote: What's next apart from the Albums? Any possibilty of the FACTUS 81-82 EP expanded? All the available tracks from that period in a nice double CD package, no books or funny coloured vinyl just songs that people want to listen to. Mesh, C&W, IALP, EGG etc. £19.99. I'd buy it!
already got released as a regular (not expanded) clear vinyl 12 inch for record store day. https://www.discogs.com/release/6355194-New-Order-1981-1982
but yeah, no CD re-issue, because all those tracks have been included several times over all the deluxe ones.
maybe a digital release, which of course you can now get because of substance.
later | || | | || | | ne gative 1
Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.
What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987').
So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive on 10 November, three days after my 49th birthday. Shocking to think I was 13 back when I first bought the double cassette in 1988!
The only core (i.e. non-promo) stuff missing that was released on the main 12" singles up to this time is 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion Rough Mix', and of course the non-Substance edits of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' - all of which have already come out digitally in remastered form, and wouldn't have fit on these CDs anyway. I prefer the Substance edits anyway, as they benefit from being trimmed a bit - so I can happily live without them on this compilation.
Then of course there's 'Paradise (Remix)', but this wasn't on any UK 12 inches (was Australia only if I recall) and did come out on the 'Retro' set. I'm actually surprised this isn't included on the reissued 'True Faith (Remix)' 12" and digital release, as this would've avoided repeating '1963' across that and the main 'True Faith' 12", and given us something extra that isn't on the 'Substance' reissue. A minor nitpick however. All in all, the three CDs feel like a full and comprehensive collection of those classic 12 inches.
Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe?
All in all, very pleased with the 4CD tracklist - so well done to all involved for listening to our thoughts in this forum and (hopefully) pleasing most of us!
I echo your sentiments, Mr Discography. The track list is pretty much what I would want.
Here's something that hasn't been discussed before (I don't think; forgive me if I'm wrong), but it looks like they've fixed the Mesh/Cries & Whispers naming error on the original release. Looking at the listing on the Store, it says for CD2:
"3) Cries And Whispers (incorrectly labelled as Mesh on original release)"
I'm glad about this.
I suppose it's obvious that they would've fixed this but, so often with these sort of things, errors just get replicated.
Good job we've got JJ on the case. If Factory was still about, I have no doubts they'd have messed it up again. ![[:d]](/emoticons/biggrin.gif){kind=small}
Good old Factory. A brilliant, pioneering record company, but accuracy was never their strength.
On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.
Fotz wrote: On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.
Murder was on the original A sides cassette.
^ Ah, I stand corrected. Had no memory of it being on the old a sides cassette. Even though i owned a copy! Think i only ever played the b sides cassette back then.
Was on Discogs earlier today and was surprised to learn that, as Mr. Discography says, on the original (big white box) version of the cassette "Murder is listed as being on cassette two but it plays after "Thieves Like Us" at the end of Side A on cassette one."
The first tape I had of it (the smaller slipcase variant), it was on tape 2.
I wonder whether, originally, they intended to have it on tape 1, as it is technically an A-side. Then they decided to relegate it to the B-side (maybe to keep the LP and tape versions in sync with track order). However, they forgot to tell the company producing the tape but did tell the sleeve printers. Then they rectified the tape run order for later releases.
Odd. Incidentally the 'Twelve Inches of New Order' promo ruler doesn't really work with 13 tracks. :-D 12 x 12" has a certain symmetry.
I have three variants of the tape kicking around somewhere. The first one was given to me by a mate and was a slipcase version. One of the tapes (tape 2, I expect, given the length) chewed up on me.
I then purchased a second slipcase tape, but this was a bit different if I recall correctly. I seem to think it didn't have the colour-coding on the cassette boxes and might've had black plastic tapes as opposed to clear (or vice versa). I barely played this version, as I decided to upgrade to the CD not long after (in case similar chewing occurred). It's in pretty much mint condition because of this.
Finally, I grabbed the original big white box a couple of years later, but admit I've never played it. Hence why I didn't know about Murder being on tape A.
Hmm, looks like there's a bit of variant in track order between UK cassette copies:
Big white box (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 1) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/145355-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 2) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/8840947-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 3) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/9205879-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 4) (Murder on tape 2):
https://www.discogs.com/release/2081693-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 5 - embossed) (Murder on tape 2):
https://www.discogs.com/release/6932105-New-Order-Substance
Only the big white box has incorrect printing on it, which states Murder is on tape 2, but is actually on tape 1. All others are printed as per the actual running order (I think!).
^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!
I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.
I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.
Fotz wrote: ^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!
I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.
I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.
Just thinking, I'm not sure of the 'release date' order of those six variants.
I imagine that the 'Murder on tape 2' versions are later variants, based on the fact that the white linen box was (presumably) an original release and has Murder on tape 1.
If that's the case, and they switched to tape 2 for later variants, one does have to question the logic of that, i.e. extending an already long cassette. It probably contributed to all the 'tape chewing' that you hear about with this release among fans.
Maybe Factory thought, 'oh well, it's only the b-sides... nobody will care if they get destroyed. Let's not jeopardise tape 1...'.
I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.
I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.
I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?
Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards
I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard
I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)
I guess you could take the view that, say the vinyl version, Substance was "a collection of all New Order's 12" singles up to that point" why wasn't Murder on there?! It was a New Order single and it was a 12" !
Fotz wrote: I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.
Up North Woolworth got lots of them but due to the size of the boxes and their Racking most were damaged. I was already into Cds by then so never got the tapes. Wish I had but I am very fussy!
GotBlueEyes wrote: Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards
I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard
I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)
Crikey! I can well imagine.
I remember buying the Murder 12" on release and coming home with it. The only record player in our house at that time was in the living room and frustratingly my brother had his new girlfriend round and they were in the living room. I had to politely disturb their afternoon and ask if they'd mind if i played my new vinyl purchase. At the end, my brother's girlfriend had a look on her face of what on earth was that shit??!! Though to her credit she didn't actually say that. Very diplomatic. But it was obvious from her face what she thought of it haha!
ROCKET MICK wrote: The only good aspect of Murder was the sleeve😎
Murder is awesome and I won't have anything bad said about it!
Interesting what Johnny says about Murder possibly never appearing on Side 2. I was convinced that at least one of my copies had it on tape 2, hence me being surprised by reading today of it being on tape 1 on other copies. I have a distinct memory of, when I first got into the band, reading an article or book which listed Murder as a single and thinking to myself, 'wonder why it's on the b-sides tape of Substance'.
However, I admit that my memory is quite often flawed.
Hmmm - my tapes are at my mum's and I *think* she has a tape player. Now I need to mull over whether or not it's worth, in the interests of research, to risk my tape getting mangled.
If it does mangle, I'm going to blame JJ and insist that he grants me one week's access to the JD/NO archives as compensation.
While we're about it, I never quite understood why the mighty Procession was "demoted" to the B-sides disc on Substance; wasn't Fac 53 a double-A-sided single?(Obviously EGG is magnificent.)
EDIT - just realised, there's not a 12" version of Procession, that's it, duh.
I haven't bought anything since Be a Rebel but time to buy again. Maybe 4 x Cd to begin with..no T Shirt will fit!
Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?
How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?
Interested to see if the audio glitch present in (as far as I remember) every release and remaster of the 'True Faith' 12" version is finally removed in this version of 'Substance' - in the first chorus when Barney sings "I'd see the light", the glitch always makes it sound like he's singing "I'd stee the light". The glitch was never present on the 7" edit.
Johnny James wrote:
steinomite wrote: Being of the camp that did not think that a "Definitive Edition" box set was warranted for a "Substance" reissue, I am glad that the band decided to reissue it as a standalone release. With this being a popular title for more casual fans of New Order, I imagine this will sell rather well.
Johnny James - Why wasn't a "Touched by the Hand of God" single released in conjunction with the "True Faith" and "Blue Monday 88" singles? With it having been released in 1987 and having "Substance" related B-sides on the CD single, I thought it would make more sense to reissue it with "Substance" versus "Brotherhood" or "Technique."
-Mike
They wanted to do BM because it's the 40th anniversary.
Doing 3 now and 3 with Brotherhood also works ok, perhaps the sequencing is a bit out, but in the end that doesn't make much difference.
There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense.
The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set!
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?
How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?
Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other).
Mr Discography wrote: Murder was on the original A sides cassette.
No risk of tape-stretch on my trusty iPod! I do wish this was getting a more extensive vinyl release though ![[:(]](/emoticons/frown.gif){kind=small}
Johnny James wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?
How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?
Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other).
Gotta say how much I appreciate all this insider information about the recent remastered reissues Johnny - it's always massively fascinating. You should write a book about it all!
So, I think what you're saying is, with 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt', you've taken the already remastered full-length 12" mixes, then edited them down digitally to recreate the edits that were originally on 'Substance' in 1987?
If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference!
Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in existence?
Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years!
Mr Discography wrote:
If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference!
Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in exist?
Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years!
It's always possible someone will spot something slightly different. The alternative is to use a U-Matic source for the edits, I haven't seen anything of higher quality for them as they probably were edited in that format (easier at the time than splicing tapes).
The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.
Mr Discography wrote:
There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense.
The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set!
I was thinking this very thing just yesterday, i.e. 'Brotherhood' Definitive Edition possibly including the 'Salvation' tracks etc. Would make total sense to release 'Touched' 12" at the same time, if this was the case.
According to the timeline in Dennis Remmer's book, the 'Salvation' sessions happened around August-September 1987, i.e. about the same time that 'Substance' was released.
Fotz wrote: I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.
I don't think it was that long after. I bought the cassette on release from Woolworths, as I wanted all the b-sides too
It was the slipcase red/blue cassette version, it lasted about a couple of weeks before the tape snapped.
I took it back to Woolies to complain and get a replacement, but they didn't have any of the slipcase versions left - so they gave me a linen box version instead. This twist of fate set me off on a collecting spree for the other FAC linen boxes and pleased to say that I have then all now
I'm beginning to wonder now, did i actually ever have the red/blue slipcase x2 cassette version.Maybe i didn't and i was getting mixed up with the CD which did have Murder in with the tracklist with the B sides disc.I do still have the hessian white box cassette version but had no memory of Murder being on the A sides cassette between Thieves and TPK.Memory eh? It can be a bugger!
Mr Discography wrote: Really lovng the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.
Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe?
The above would have been an excellent idea. Did like a 12” of Nothing for me \ let’s go as well
Johnny James wrote: The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.
Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated.
So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues?
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote: The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.
Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated.
So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues?
Both albums were done to tape originally, then were copied over to pro-tools and more work was done. This makes it difficult to go back to the studio tapes.
Johnny James wrote: I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.
I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?
I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs.
Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there.
'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition.
Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected.
Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;)
depthcharge wrote:
Johnny James wrote: I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.
I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.
I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?
I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs.
Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there.
'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition.
Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected.
Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;)
That was my suspicion, Discogs does seem to have some listings that contradict that from all the variants on there. The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days.
Johnny James wrote: They don't like C120 lengths these days.
Neither did my Saisho cassette player in 1987!
Johnny James wrote: The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days.
It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand?
I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version. I haven't ordered yet, but if I'm gonna spend money on this (and only order one format), then the 4CD is probably the most attractive option.
Mr Discography wrote: Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.
What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987').
So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive
CD3 will finally cure my FOMO of not having all those tracks like Shellcock and Dub Vulture on my previous Substance purchases. This does feel like a not-strictly-necessary exercise in nostalgia. But it's difficult to resist...
Debaser wrote:
It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand?
I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version.
It's a good question, and looking at the discogs editions it looks like there were a disproportionate number of cassette editions released, because (I assume) the demand was there to have a whole other album of b-sides They were still pressing new cassette editions post the London Records signing (1993?)
I know that myself and a number of my friends all went for the cassette at the time because of the extra tracks, but given that the CD has the most content this time, I'm going to guess that they don't expect to sell that many of the new cassettes and it's just a limited edition "nice-to-have-but-never-play" thing for collectors
Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…
EmileStrunz wrote: Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…
Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there.
Johnny James wrote:
EmileStrunz wrote: Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…
Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there.
It's missing from the New Order Store listing too: https://store.neworder.com/gb/new-order/substance-87-4cd-expanded-edition/5054197717901.html
just for fun,
made some megamixes of the tracks:
heres substance megamix part 1:
the perfect kiss -> blue monday works out really well of course..
later ||| | || ne gative 1
and now for some more interesting takes on this.
so i attempted to do another megamix, this time using instrumentals of the songs (some generated), this allowed for a different version.
the tracklisting is completely different
some of the transitions are really cool
tracklist - new order substance instrumental megamix 1 2023
thieves like us (similar to the instrumental but some changes) true faith (instrumental) bizarre love triangle (instrumental) (not the dub) state of the nation (instrumental) temptation 87 (instrumental) subculture (instrumental) shellshock (instrumental) not the dub confusion 87 (instrumental) everythings gone green (instrumental) blue monday (instrumental) the perfect kiss (instrumental) ceremony (instrumental)
later || || | | | ne gative 1
Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?
Mr Discography wrote: Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?
Yep.
Johnny James wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?
Yep.
Good to know! I know it's not being titled (or packaged) as such, but to me, my combination of coloured double vinyl and 4 x CD set really will be my "Definitive Edition" of 'Substance' - looking forward to this one!
Cheers!
Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?
Thanks!
50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?
Thanks!
We probably should try and find a way to get that Shell Shock out. That version of the TLU instrumental did come out on the PCL Collector's Edition (possibly by accident).
Johnny James wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?
Thanks!
We probably should try and find a way to get that Shell Shock out. That version of the TLU instrumental did come out on the PCL Collector's Edition (possibly by accident).
There's three versions of the full length TLU Instrumental (four if you include the Instrumental Edit on the Shellshock 7"). The "official" released version (a composite of two other takes), what I understand is "Take 1" (featured on the collectors edition), and "Take 2" which is on the Shellshock US 12". I have all three, and the version on the Shellshock 12" hasn't come out digitally elsewhere. Although there's not a great deal difference between them.
Although the 12" of Shellshock accompanied the Low-Life Definitive Edition, as it was actually released between Low-Life and Brotherhood, maybe there's a justification for putting the original Pretty In Pink soundtrack version on the Brotherhood Definitive bonus disc?
Cheers!
So continuing the recent (fascinating) discussions about those U-Matic tapes being unreliable and only having 44.1kHz, 16-bit sound quality, I've been trying to get a picture of which tracks on the 'Substance' reissue needed workarounds to upgrade the sound quality, whilst preserving the original U-Matic edits. Forgive me for over-obsessing, but, hey, it's my favourite album and I'm excited about its reissue (plus I'm extremely interested in the time, effort and attention to detail going into these re-releases in order to get their sound quality upgraded). How's this for a summary Johnny:
Tracks with digitally recreated 'Substance Edits' (i.e. original 12" master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the U-Matic 'Substance' edits from 1987):
- Sub-culture [remaster of original 12" version, edited digitally to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
- Shellshock [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
- Hurt [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
Tracks with digitally recreated 12" versions (i.e. original master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the original 12" single versions):
- Thieves Like Us Instrumental [remaster of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53, plus reproducing a looped section from 3:35 that repeats at 3:52 - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
Tracks remastered from production masters of U-Matic tapes (i.e. original source not available, so production master used instead):
- The Beach [remaster of production master tape of original 12" version - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue. Original 12" master consisted of 2 x alternate takes, one section of which was composited into the other using a U-Matic. One of the takes appears on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, but unable to source the other missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit. Also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from the U-Matic based edited version).]
Tracks different to the original Substance:
- In A Lonely Place [original 12" version used instead of the alternate take that was incorrectly used on the original 1987 'Substance' - same version that appears on the the 2019 'Ceremony' 12"/Digital single reissue']
- Murder [remaster of original master tape version (that can be heard on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, with 5 extra beats at the beginning), including the first 5 beats missing from the original 12" and 1987 'Substance' releases, as well as the 2020 12"/digital single reissue - meaning the version of 'Murder' on the new 'Substance' is different to the original 'Substance' version]
Are all the other tracks on the 'Substance' reissue (and, therefore all other tracks on the remastered 12" inches released so far) all sourced from original master tapes and unedited?
Thanks for all the background info on this and other reissues - I find it really intruiging!
Mr Discography wrote: So continuing the recent (fascinating) discussions about those U-Matic tapes being unreliable and only having 44.1kHz, 16-bit sound quality, I've been trying to get a picture of which tracks on the 'Substance' reissue needed workarounds to upgrade the sound quality, whilst preserving the original U-Matic edits. Forgive me for over-obsessing, but, hey, it's my favourite album and I'm excited about its reissue (plus I'm extremely interested in the time, effort and attention to detail going into these re-releases in order to get their sound quality upgraded) How's this for a summary Johnny:
Tracks with digitally recreated 'Substance Edits' (i.e. original 12" master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the U-Matic 'Substance' edits from 1987):
- Sub-culture [remaster of original 12" version, edited digitally to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
- Shellshock [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
- Hurt [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
Tracks with digitally recreated 12" versions (i.e. original master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the original 12" single versions):
- The Beach [remaster of 2 x alternate takes, one section of which then digitally composited into the other to reproduce the original 12" version - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
- Murder [remaster of original master tape version (that can be heard on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, with 5 extra beats at the beginning), edited digitally to remove the first 5 beats - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
- Thieves Like Us Instrumental [remaster of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53 - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
Johnny, am I correct listing 'The Beach' above - I recall you said something about not being able to get hold of the original master tapes and/or U-Matics, so had to remaster it from a production master tape instead?
Are all the other tracks on the 'Substance' reissue (and, therefore all other tracks on the remastered 12" inches released so far) all sourced from original master tapes and unedited?
Thanks for all the background info on this and other reissues - I find it really intruiging!
For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).
Johnny James wrote: For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).
Thanks again for the explanation Johnny - I've updated my previous post with your info. Sounds like you guys were very lucky to have enough source material in the archives to create these releases with improved sound quality!
Does this therefore mean that even back in 1983, the versions of 'The Beach' and other U-Matic edits ('Thieves Like Us Instrumental', 'Murder', '586'), plus the the 1987 'Substance' edits of 'Sub-culture' and 'Shellshock' that we were listening to on "superior" vinyl, were actually only ever sourced from U-Matic masters limited to 44.1kHz 16-bit CD quality?
Reading your previous post on the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' thread, it's sounds like the whole vinyl pressing of the album was created from a U-Matic CD quality master - possibly the same with the original 'Substance'? Crazy to think that people championing the vinyl pressings of these albums back in the eighties had no idea they were limited to CD sampling rates!
What years were New Order using U-Matics for - sounds like '83 to '87?
Was there anything on 'Low-life' edited on U-Matic that you had to digitally recreate, or were these all tape edits?
Is everything else not on my 'Substance' list above remastered from original master tape sources without other workarounds / digital edits?
Cheers!
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote: [For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).
Thanks again for the explanation Johnny - I've updated my previous post with your info. Sounds like you guys were very lucky to have enough source material in the archives to create these releases with improved sound quality!
Does this therefore mean that even back in 1983, the versions of 'The Beach' and other U-Matic edits ('Thieves Like Us Instrumental', 'Murder', '586'), plus the the 1987 'Substance' edits of 'Sub-culture' and 'Shellshock' that we were listening to on "superior" vinyl, were actually only ever sourced from U-Matic masters limited to 44.1kHz 16-bit CD quality?
Reading your previous post on the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' thread, it's sounds like the whole vinyl pressing of the album was created from a U-Matic CD quality master - possibly the same with the original 'Substance'? Crazy to think that people championing the vinyl pressings of these albums back in the eighties had no idea they were limited to CD sampling rates!
What years were New Order using U-Matics for - sounds like '83 to '87?
Was there anything on 'Low-life' edited on U-Matic that you had to digitally recreate, or were these all tape edits?
Is everything else not on my 'Substance' list above remastered from original master tape sources without other workarounds / digital edits?
Cheers!
I'm fairly sure that once the brand new technology of the U-Matics came along they were used in the process every time, you could edit on them instead of splicing tapes (well, with two of them). They're very much present in the archives until DATs and CD-Rs came along (also not any better in quality). Pro-tools becomes a thing early 2000s as well (slight improvement in quality but very hard to re-open any sessions).
They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.
Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember).
I think everything else on Substance was analogue studio master sourced, though a couple (BLT / Shell Shock) might have been from production master reels.
Johnny James wrote:
They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.
Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember)
Interesting that the old analogue masters would have been through a digital stage - so those early Factory vinyl albums would've had no more than CD quality.
Regarding 'Low-life': 'The Perfect Kiss', 'Elegia', 'Sooner Than You Think' and possibly 'Sunrise' all have longer versions, or versions with longer sections, so I wonder if at least those four songs went through U-Matic edits before making it onto your master reels?
Thanks again, amazing background info!
Mr Discography wrote:
Johnny James wrote:
They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.
Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember)
Interesting that the old analogue masters would have been through a digital stage - so those early Factory vinyl albums would've had no more than CD quality.
Regarding 'Low-life', 'The Perfect Kiss', 'Elegia', 'Sooner Than You Think' and possibly 'Sunrise' all have longer versions, or versions with longer sections, so I wonder if at least those four songs went through U-Matic edits before making it onto your master reels?
Thanks again, amazing background info!
I think those particular album edits might have been done on analogue reels in the studio whilst recording and mixing the album. You'd have to ask Michael Johnson or the band.
Red and Blue vinyl version arrived from Rough Trade today. Didn't think it was released until next week.
It's a thing of beauty. Obvs.
Not sure when I'll get the CD and 3 x 12"s. Ordered them from Amazon.co.uk.
perspexorange wrote: Red and Blue vinyl version arrived from Rough Trade today. Didn't think it was released until next week.
It's a thing of beauty. Obvs.
Not sure when I'll get the CD and 3 x 12"s. Ordered them from Amazon.co.uk.
Very jealous. I ordered mine from Picadilly Records, so guess I have to wait until at least the official release date on Friday (assuming they ship in time to arrive then). Today was my birthday, so would've been a perfect day to receive a vinyl remaster of my all time favourite album.
My red and blue came this morning
Outer sleeve has embossed lettering but isn’t like my original glossy cover. It’s still lovely though.
The vinyl looks gorgeous and sounds it too. They’ve done a really good job on the mastering. Hearing loads of little details I’d not heard before. Sounds really fresh.
Johnny, will any digital download stores be selling hi-rez versions of the 'Substance' reissue? I know the recent 12" releases were 24-bit on Qobuz, but it's only listing 'Substance' as 16-bit CD quality.
My coloured vinyl turned up from Picadilly Records, but there are two white visible scuffs on 'Shellshock' - one right at the end that's very audible, so it will have to go back for a replacement. Typical, as that's my favourite New Order track (and favourite version of it).
Plus my brand new pair of Sennheiser HD 450BT headphones are faulty too - sounds like an old-school modem dialling up when I turn it on. So two things to send back!
Didn't listen to the whole of the album - just checked if the scuffs were audible, and dipped in a little bit elsewhere. Tiny observation that the gap between 'The Perfect Kiss' and 'Subculture' is 2-3 seconds longer than the original CD (never had the original vinyl, so that may have been longer). I always liked the way 'Subculture' kicked straight in as the funny goblin noise started to fade out (not sure if it was originally a crossfade - more than likely a tight U-Matic edit). Think I'm already learning to enjoy having the full track right to its very silent end - and fabulous that it'll finally be the full 12" version for the first time ever on the CD format of 'Substance'!
Also listened to the "re-edited" 'Substance' edits of 'Subculture' and 'Shellshock', which are both spot on and impossible to tell they're recreated - well done indeed!
Hoping I get to listen to a non-scuffed version of the vinyl in the next few days, and enjoy the 4 x CD set when it turns up from Amazon on Friday.
Well done again for bringing this out - I love that this album has finally been remastered and re-released, and 10/10 for the 4 x CD tracklisting!
Big surprise, the digital 3x12" are already available on Qobuz (highRes). ![[:)]](/emoticons/smile.gif){kind=small}
I remember, we had wait some weeks/months for the last bunch (PK, Subcult, Shell).
I ordered the standard 2xCD from Amazon US to tide me over until my bundle arrives, and all week long it's been showing as arriving today, but not yet shipped. Well, about an hour ago, Amazon cancelled the order and sent me a notice that they didn't have it in stock. Bummer. I may check out my local indie today and see if they got any.
I've been listening through samples online, though, and I love hearing the live show in such great quality after having an audience bootleg for 20 years.
My red & blue vinyl copy just in the Chicago suburbs from Turntable Lab. While I didn't get it as early as some of you folks in the UK, I am pleasantly surprised to have received it in the US on release day. Not to mention the fact that, with sales taxes and shipping, it only cost me $40.27
Anyways, it's not quite as cool as my Gatefold Substance, but have to say that Warners (and Mr. Zeiter) did a nice job on it. A big thumbs up from this fan!
-Mike
My 4xCD is on its way from iMusic DK.
Meanwhile:
https://darko.audio/2023/11/new-orders-substance-in-2023-more-songs-weaker-sound/
Mr. Disco wrote: My 4xCD is on its way from iMusic DK.
Meanwhile:
https://darko.audio/2023/11/new-orders-substance-in-2023-more-songs-weaker-sound/
His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.
Also, I'm getting so tired of these articles obsessing over the dynamic range of releases. Sure, those 90s Oasis albums were brickwalled, but more recent remasters are nowhere near as severe. If "audiophiles" didn't anally run each and every CD and vinyl grab through audio software, they'd never even notice the difference.
My right ear has distorted whenever audio has loud peaks ever since Pet Shop Boys opened their first tour with One More Chance at Wembley Arena, so a tighter dynamic range is better for me, as less peaks mean less chance of my ear crackling. Plus is easier to listen to out and about on portable music players without the everyday background noise seeping in. I've never found a slightly tighter dynamic range tiring to listen to.
Honestly, all this bitching about a 4dB RMS difference is nuts. I got the 4 x CD and listened to disc 1 today - thought it sounded superb. A lovely remastering. Very satisfied with it. It's beautiful, and better than the tinny original. Will truly be my "definitive" edition.
perspexorange wrote: Hmm, looks like there's a bit of variant in track order between UK cassette copies:
Big white box (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 1) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/145355-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 2) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/8840947-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 3) (Murder on tape 1):
https://www.discogs.com/release/9205879-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 4) (Murder on tape 2):
https://www.discogs.com/release/2081693-New-Order-Substance
Slipcase (variant 5 - embossed) (Murder on tape 2):
https://www.discogs.com/release/6932105-New-Order-Substance
Only the big white box has incorrect printing on it, which states Murder is on tape 2, but is actually on tape 1. All others are printed as per the actual running order (I think!).
Was there ever a Substance 2 x cassette release with True Dub at the end? I seem to remember someone here posting a pic of it, and see mention of it on Wikipedia and the NO Wiki, but can't find it on Discogs or elsewhere. A limited edition apparently? Would be a ridiculously long tape! Closest I can find is the Canadian 'Substance Sides' release https://www.discogs.com/release/2621988-New-Order-Substance-Sides
I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:
Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)
What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?
GotBlueEyes wrote: I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:
Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)
What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?
Whoever was at the mixing desk had to flip the tape. DATs were released to market in 1987, but I'm sure the band was using standard cassette tapes at the time.
Mr Discography wrote:
His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.
Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.
50poundnote wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.
Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.
Not that I'm arguing, but this version states it has the 8:02 edit:
https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance
Of course, Discogs could be wrong (like the aforementioned 'Murder' location), and I can no longer check my cassette copies to verify.
perspexorange wrote: Not that I'm arguing, but this version states it has the 8:02 edit:
https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance
Of course, Discogs could be wrong (like the aforementioned 'Murder' location), and I can no longer check my cassette copies to verify.
The Discogs entry is wrong. I have the linen box and it's the same as every other cassette issue.
Mr Discography wrote:
Also, I'm getting so tired of these articles obsessing over the dynamic range of releases. Sure, those 90s Oasis albums were brickwalled, but more recent remasters are nowhere near as severe. If "audiophiles" didn't anally run each and every CD and vinyl grab through audio software, they'd never even notice the difference.
Honestly, all this bitching about a 4dB RMS difference is nuts. I got the 4 x CD and listened to disc 1 today - thought it sounded superb. A lovely remastering. Very satisfied with it. It's beautiful, and better than the tinny original. Will truly be my "definitive" edition.
I agree with you. On discogs and Facebook, they are all complaining about the CDs and the vinyls.
I've listened CD1and CD2 today. The sound quality is far better than my 1987 original 2CD!
50poundnote wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.
Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.
Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.
My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.
This also describes my experience of Shellshock.
50poundnote wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote: I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:
Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)
What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?
Whoever was at the mixing desk had to flip the tape. DATs were released to market in 1987, but I'm sure the band was using standard cassette tapes at the time.
Yep sorry - you are correct, I had mis-remembered the page on the MDM archive as being a DAT https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact/2560/NEW\_ORDER\_MASTER\_TAPE\_1987
Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder
GotBlueEyes wrote: Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder
The booklet says patched. I haven't listened closely enough yet to notice anything. It also indicates a patch in Shellshock.
50poundnote wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote: Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder
The booklet says patched. I haven't listened closely enough yet to notice anything. It also indicates a patch in Shellshock.
Just listened to the live CD4. If 'Subculture' and 'Shellshock' are both composites of the two performances, I have no clue where the edit is. I expected to hear an obvious point in both where the mix or sound quality changes, but I hear nothing. Johnny, are the two tracks completely taken from the other performances?
Gotta say, CD4 is astonishing. That has to be New Order's best ever gig, surely? Must have been so exciting after 'Temptation' kicked in, then 'Blue Monday' started and the crowd began to realise they're doing it.... They're playing their first 12 twelve inches in order. Eventually being certain what song was going to come next. Decades before most bands were playing classic albums live in their entirety. Love it - almost brought me to tears hearing my favourite album live. 80s sequencers; ramshackle; mastered from an old cassette; Barney adding his trademark rude lyrics to 'The Perfect Kiss', then cracking up; singing songs in the wrong octave as he often did back then; proper punk. 'Ceremony' sounding the best live it ever has; 'True Faith' in the same classic original live arrangement they used right up to Reading 1993 (wish they'd go back to that version live these days); hell, even 'State Of The Nation' rocks. Must be my favourite New Order live recording. Steve was saying in that recent 6 Music interview that they couldn't find any good live recordings of 'Shellshock', but that version back then was awesome - so electronic, experimental and playful. Although the crowd noise is quiet, I love the great screams you can hear as each single starts playing - amazing reaction. Even having the audio artefacts from the cassette gives it a lovely authenticity you wouldn't have got from a DAT soundboard. So glad this has been released.
My CD box from Amazon was also a bit squashed and creased, but I'm keeping it like that - reminds me of my weathered old double tape box. And once it's been ripped into my audio library, it'll probably sit in a box in the attic anyway.
Only downside of CD4 is 'The Passenger' intro to 'True Faith' is edited out (obviously with Barney's cheeky comments just before it) - I always thought that 'Passenger' intro was inspired, hearing it with the 'True Faith' snare drum playing in the background, then clumsily falling into the 'True Faith' beat. Was it removed for publishing/licencing reasons Johnny? I agree with other comments that it'd also be great if 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' and 'Sister Ray' could be released digitally so we can get the whole concert. Would love to hear how the crowd reacted to 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' starting up.
So jealous of everyone who was there - is there anyone on this forum that was at it?
Mr Discography wrote: Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.
I stand corrected. I got all my cassette copies out and checked. The linen box and standard Factory double cassette in a slipcase end side one with Murder, and start side two with the CD edit of The Perfect Kiss. The US cassette does not include Murder, and has the full-length version of TPK. Both UK and US vinyl include the full-length version. It will be interesting to see which version is on the new cassette, but mine hasn't arrived yet.
I'm sure I was misremembering it because I had the actual 12", and used to put it on mixtapes, so my brain was thinking "cassette = full version."
50poundnote wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.
I stand corrected. I got all my cassette copies out and checked. The linen box and standard Factory double cassette in a slipcase end side one with Murder, and start side two with the CD edit of The Perfect Kiss. The US cassette does not include Murder, and has the full-length version of TPK. Both UK and US vinyl include the full-length version. It will be interesting to see which version is on the new cassette, but mine hasn't arrived yet.
I'm sure I was misremembering it because I had the actual 12", and used to put it on mixtapes, so my brain was thinking "cassette = full version."
That's really interesting about the US cassette - never knew the full length version was on any Substance tapes.
Amazed you still have a working tape player!
Also possible you were thinking of the 'Low-life' cassette which featured the full versions of all three TPK 12" tracks across the end of both sides..
Didn't buy but had a bit of a listen on streaming. Detected more detail in audio and cleaner, more sprightly & less brutal for example on BLT. Mind you, i did have my bi-annual micro suction of both ears just last week so my hearing is shit hot right now.What? Live disc, think i've moved on from ramshackle old live recordings, not sure i like the old live stuff so much anymore.
Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.
Fotz wrote:
Live disc, think i've moved on from ramshackle old live recordings, not sure i like the old live stuff so much anymore.
I’ve gone the other way. I rarely listened to them back in the day. Now I can’t get enough of live New Order. Chaotic sometimes, but always so exciting. What a band!
Mr Discography wrote: Also possible you were thinking of the 'Low-life' cassette which featured the full versions of all three TPK 12" tracks across the end of both sides..
The US cassette for Low-life doesn't include those.
Substance was my first New Order album purchase back in '87, and I've worn out my copy of the double cassette having played it so much. So I was pleased to see news of this reissue, especially the 4 CD set.
I've played CDs 1 to 3 so far and I really enjoyed listening to them - there was a crispness and clarity which I appreciated, and I heard bits I haven't noticed before. I have no comment on dynamic range, but didn't find the listening process in any way fatiguing. I even managed to get through more out-there mixes by John Robie, although I might not repeat that for some time.
A couple of points:
I noticed that what is listed on my original UK tape/CD copies as Confused Instrumental is now listed as Confusion Instrumental. I'd never noticed previously that the original 12" FAC93 listed the track as Confusion Instrumental, as did (according to Discogs) the US CD pressings, so I've learnt something new; and
It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?
Regardless, very pleased that this was released, and look forward to hearing CD 4.
Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.
What do you mean?
Mr Discography wrote:
Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.
What do you mean?
Oh it's nothing major, just a kind of spinning whirring noise on rhe right side at the start. Most prominent the first 4-5 seconds before the synth comes in. It is there after that but not so clear and then at 19 seconds the drums kick in and the sound disappears.
I didn't buy the remastered Sub Culture 12" or download early this year but if i had i guess i would have noticed it then. Just never picked up on it so clearly or at all before.It's a minor detail but it's always a surprise when you hear something in a remastered track that you hadn't before.
From what i've listened to so far on streaming, i like the remastered Substance. I know nothing about all that dynamic range technical stuff etc. so can only describe what i hear. Think i've read people mention 'fatiguing' either in the orginal or new reissue. I'd say the new release is anything but fatiguing. I could possibly listen to discs 1-3 in one sitting. It glides and isn't dull sounding like i often heard the orginal LP or CD. Parts that were once a bit brutal or irritating are now great to hear.A clarity and freshness in the tracks.
There seems to be a lot of complainings regarding the quality of the packaging for the 4xCD set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6HyMPxtpeI
I was really amused watching the video, thinking to myself what a bargain 4 CDs for £18... cheap and cheerful for me anytime
Mr. Disco wrote: There seems to be a lot of complainings regarding the quality of the packaging for the 4xCD set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6HyMPxtpeI
I was really amused watching the video, thinking to myself what a bargain 4 CDs for £18... cheap and cheerful for me anytime
I actually changed my mind about keeping my 4 CD copy that turned up with creased spines, so a replacement will be arriving from them tomorrow, after which I have until early December to send the first one back for the refund.
I expect the second copy to also get squished in the card envelope or when it goes through the letterbox, but will keep my fingers crossed.
Did anyone order from UK stores other than Amazon and got them in good condition due to better packaging? Any recommendations as to a store I could use?
What was the packaging like from the New Order store?
Mr Discography wrote: Did anyone order from UK stores other than Amazon and got them in good condition due to better packaging? Any recommendations as to a store I could use?
What was the packaging like from the New Order store?
I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.
I ordered the red/blue "indies" double vinyl, 4 CD expanded edition and double cassette each from different retailers. All arrived on time, and in fairness to the NO store which has delivered late in the past, I received the double cassette on day of release. I bought the 3 x 12" single reissues in person from Rough Trade East in London and accompanying 24-Bit audio from Qobuz (reliable as ever). Having a Hi-Res version of True Faith / 1963 is brilliant, not to mention the full 10+ minute True Dub into the bargain. I couldn't be more underwhelmed by BM88 (original or reissue) but the completist in me said "you sort of have to, don't you?". That said, this is the first time I didn't bother with the "super duper wuper deluxe" offering from the NO store; it seemed very expensive and didn't offer the coloured vinyl, so I stand by that decision, tbh.
I think the (re)mastering of the 4 CD set is fine and you'll never please some people. Is it a touch loud? Perhaps, but nowhere near as bad as the Sirens-era CDs and pragmatically, the original 36 year-old Factory mastering desperately needed an upgrade while being able to compete in the 21st century's audio landscape. Those on Discogs moaning it's not "dynamically pure" are of course, welcome to their opinion but "FFS" is all I'll say. It's a great compromise and I can hear aspects of the music more clearly, as well as a better lower end. Far more than I ever could on the original Facd200. True Faith in particular, we've languished with that '87 mastering for far too long. Virtually all compilation appearances of that track have been edited, remixed, repurposed or whatever but it was rare to find a modern sounding mastering beyond Substance. International from 2002 came close as did the 2009 Factory Communications 4 CD box-set (my preference was the latter).
My one small, overall complaint is the reissue packaging across all 3 formats is admittedly a little basic and feels a bit cheap. I have no doubt this helped make the 4 CD set all the more affordable so... swings and roundabouts. I gladly would've shelled out for an additional and slightly more expensive "Definitive Edition" box, with the CDs, vinyl and a book as per the recent album ones, but I'm happy with what we got. More than happy, in fact.
Somehow, I was keener to pick this one up in person on release date than with the albums. New Order will always be predominantly a singles band to me, and I guess I'm probably not alone?
Fotz wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.
What do you mean?
Oh it's nothing major, just a kind of spinning whirring noise on rhe right side at the start. Most prominent the first 4-5 seconds before the synth comes in. It is there after that but not so clear and then at 19 seconds the drums kick in and the sound disappears.
I didn't buy the remastered Sub Culture 12" or download early this year but if i had i guess i would have noticed it then. Just never picked up on it so clearly or at all before.It's a minor detail but it's always a surprise when you hear something in a remastered track that you hadn't before.
I listened to my copy of the original 1985 12" and can actually hear it on that.So , er, ignore my previous.I guess i heard it before but hadn't played Dub Vulture for so long i'd forgotten about it.Doh.
Fotz wrote: From what i've listened to so far on streaming, i like the remastered Substance. I know nothing about all that dynamic range technical stuff etc. so can only describe what i hear. Think i've read people mention 'fatiguing' either in the orginal or new reissue. I'd say the new release is anything but fatiguing. I could possibly listen to discs 1-3 in one sitting. It glides and isn't dull sounding like i often heard the orginal LP or CD. Parts that were once a bit brutal or irritating are now great to hear.A clarity and freshness in the tracks.
I agree i think it sounds great on spotify...definately better than when i last streamed it not tall that long ago
Quite strange really as when i last listened to it(having not listened to it for 20+ years) oddly the week before the remaster was announced i didn't get all the way through it and commented to my daughter about how it sounded a little dull
Saturday night after a couple of cans i had a listen....ended up listening to every song and really enjoyed it...loved the live gig but i was about 12 cans in by then😄
My cd case was a little squased but nothing major....will go and sit with the others in a cupboard as i don't actually have anything to pay it on
50poundnote wrote: I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.
My experiences with the US instance of the New Order store have been nothing but disastrous. They ship the Definitive Edition box sets in simply the box issued by the distributor, which isn't intended for shipment on its own. All 12" sized vinyl has arrived with bent corners. And the times that I purposely ordered shirts with vinyl to hopefully add some padding to the vinyl, much to my dismay, they ended up shipping the vinyl and shirts separately. Then working with Warners/Rhino customer services is abysmal. They take forever to respond, won't allow replacements, just returns. Then when they re-ship something, it's in the EXACT SAME packaging as before.
And while I loathe Amazon, the Definitive Edition box sets that they have shipped me have all been double-packed (i.e., the distributor's box inside yet another box). So they have all arrived safely and were significantly cheaper.
The UK/Euro New Order Store is somewhat better, but everything ships from the island of Jersey and takes forever to make it to the States. Also, my mirrored sleeve edition of "The Perfect Kiss" arrived soaking wet. They ultimately replaced it, but not without a fight, plus having to wait another few months for the replacement to arrive.
So, unless it's an exclusive item, I have pretty much given up on the New Order Store.
-Mike
Got an email that my bundle has shipped, minus the poster, which is on backorder. Hopefully have it by the weekend!
steinomite wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.
My experiences with the US instance of the New Order store have been nothing but disastrous. They ship the Definitive Edition box sets in simply the box issued by the distributor, which isn't intended for shipment on its own. All 12" sized vinyl has arrived with bent corners. And the times that I purposely ordered shirts with vinyl to hopefully add some padding to the vinyl, much to my dismay, they ended up shipping the vinyl and shirts separately. Then working with Warners/Rhino customer services is abysmal. They take forever to respond, won't allow replacements, just returns. Then when they re-ship something, it's in the EXACT SAME packaging as before.
And while I loathe Amazon, the Definitive Edition box sets that they have shipped me have all been double-packed (i.e., the distributor's box inside yet another box). So they have all arrived safely and were significantly cheaper.
The UK/Euro New Order Store is somewhat better, but everything ships from the island of Jersey and takes forever to make it to the States. Also, my mirrored sleeve edition of "The Perfect Kiss" arrived soaking wet. They ultimately replaced it, but not without a fight, plus having to wait another few months for the replacement to arrive.
So, unless it's an exclusive item, I have pretty much given up on the New Order Store.
-Mike
well, its unfortunate that you had those issues.
i've ordered several items, and never had any defects, problems or issues at all.
if they really are that bad, i hope i never have to go there.
but over several years, nothing happened to worry about.
50poundnote wrote: Got an email that my bundle has shipped, minus the poster, which is on backorder. Hopefully have it by the weekend!
yeah, i'm expecting my shipping notice shortly.
i can wait for the poster, no big deal. because i still have to figure out where to put it.
later ||| || | | | ne gative 1
got my clear red and blue lp yesterday.
haven't listened yet, but given the reports, should sound great. i've been listening to the digital tracks all weekend (and even right now), and the are decent too.
i've updated my record display now, so i can rotate a couple of records out on clear shelves, and put them both there.
here are pictures and a closeup of the sleeve.
will show the full package once it arrives.
later || | || | | | ne gative 1
I personally don't see the point of the reproduction poster. I still have a mint copy of the original poster with the FACT number printed on it.
-Mike
steinomite wrote: I personally don't see the point of the reproduction poster. I still have a mint copy of the original poster with the FACT number printed on it.
-Mike
well, considering the small fortune posters go for sometimes, i'm glad to have it.
it was bonus with the bundle, i'm sure they added to the price, but it wouldn't have been that much for it.
later | | || | | | | ne gative 1
Finally sorted with my final copies of the red/blue vinyl (replacement to the scuffed one received today from Piccadilly Records), and the 4 CD from Amazon (their second attempt to ship had the same packaging, but didn't get squished all along the edges like last week's one - although there is a tiny crease on the top edge that I flattened out and can live with). Bit of a palaver, but glad to have both copies in good condition now, and look forward to giving the coloured vinly its first proper play later in the week.
Pash wrote:
- It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?
Just checked on Apple Music and I can hear the same issue on there, so that confirms it isn't just my disc...
Pash wrote:
Pash wrote:
- It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?
Just checked on Apple Music and I can hear the same issue on there, so that confirms it isn't just my disc...
Checked it out on headphones. Yes i think i know what you mean. Goes a bit wonky for a second or two.
50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Thanks!
Somehow I had it in my head that the Pretty In Pink version was the same as the Substance edit - but just realised (thanks to your post here) that it's not
The songography post on here says
shellshock (pretty in pink) 6:40 v, cd, cs shellshock (substance) 6:28 v, cd, cs
but that's not right either? The Pretty In Pink version is 6:04 so maybe a typo?
Or am I going mad?
Fotz wrote:
Pash wrote:
Pash wrote:
- It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?
Just checked on Apple Music and I can hear the same issue on there, so that confirms it isn't just my disc...
Checked it out on headphones. Yes i think i know what you mean. Goes a bit wonky for a second or two.
I just had a listen too, and heard it. Don't think it's just the hi-hat - there's a slight dulling of the high frequencies across everything for a second or two. Wonder if it was damage to the mater tape? The only previous version released in CD I'm aware of was the Canadian CD single (released in 1994, I think). That doesn't have the same audio glitch.
A shame it's there. But doubt I'll ever notice it unless on decent headphones.
GotBlueEyes wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Thanks!
Somehow I had it in my head that the Pretty In Pink version was the same as the Substance edit - but just realised (thanks to your post here) that it's not
The songography post on here says
shellshock (pretty in pink) 6:40 v, cd, cs shellshock (substance) 6:28 v, cd, cs
but that's not right either? The Pretty In Pink version is 6:04 so maybe a typo?
Or am I going mad?
yeah, probably a typo, i'll double check it.
later || | | || | | ne gative 1
GotBlueEyes wrote:
50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,
Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.
Thanks!
Somehow I had it in my head that the Pretty In Pink version was the same as the Substance edit - but just realised (thanks to your post here) that it's not
The songography post on here says
shellshock (pretty in pink) 6:40 v, cd, cs shellshock (substance) 6:28 v, cd, cs
but that's not right either? The Pretty In Pink version is 6:04 so maybe a typo?
Or am I going mad?
Unfortunately, this version has never been remastered, the sound on my Pretty In Pink OST CD seems awful nowadays. I feel the same when hearing the Salvation OST CD.
Pretty In Pink version of Shellshock is definitely 6:05.
It's my favourite version, retaining the 'extended' bits and not cutting out the extra lyrics. Also, unlike the 12" version, there's thankfully not as much repetition (how often does the chorus get repeated on the 12"?!).
perspexorange wrote: Pretty In Pink version of Shellshock is definitely 6:05.
It's my favourite version, retaining the 'extended' bits and not cutting out the extra lyrics. Also, unlike the 12" version, there's thankfully not as much repetition (how often does the chorus get repeated on the 12"?!).
I think I counted 13 repeats of the final chorus on the 12" mix. Way too repetitious.
Substance edit is my favourite - the first version I ever heard, and prefer the cold ending to Pretty In Pink's fade out. Don't really miss the extra lyrics, but was a nice surprise when I bought the Pretty In Pink soundtrack, then went on to get the 12".
Regarding the "patch" on Shellshock, on the original audio he clearly sings "The smell of cocaine gets me high" at 2min30s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrQMz\_AXCO8
No trace of drug mentions on the re-released audio:
Delighted to finally have a decent pressing of Substance. Both the black and the coloured vinyl have no surface noise, or endless pops and clicks like the original pressing did. Had numerous copies of that over the years, never found a clean quiet one. The remastering is pretty good. My ears are happy enough. My only niggle is, what eejit decided True Faith remix should be 33rpm?? Unforgivable! …….. or perhaps I just have the runt of the litter. It still sounds good but less detailed than the original. Really looking forward to the Brotherhood box. …….. hope I can hang in there long enough. 🤞
Also, any sign of Electronic’s Raise The Pressure getting a repress on vinyl? My original is great, and despite over 30 mins per side sounds fab. It’s gagging on a double vinyl reissue though. 🤞
xox
steinomite wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.
My experiences with the US instance of the New Order store have been nothing but disastrous. They ship the Definitive Edition box sets in simply the box issued by the distributor, which isn't intended for shipment on its own. All 12" sized vinyl has arrived with bent corners. And the times that I purposely ordered shirts with vinyl to hopefully add some padding to the vinyl, much to my dismay, they ended up shipping the vinyl and shirts separately. Then working with Warners/Rhino customer services is abysmal. They take forever to respond, won't allow replacements, just returns. Then when they re-ship something, it's in the EXACT SAME packaging as before.
And while I loathe Amazon, the Definitive Edition box sets that they have shipped me have all been double-packed (i.e., the distributor's box inside yet another box). So they have all arrived safely and were significantly cheaper.
The UK/Euro New Order Store is somewhat better, but everything ships from the island of Jersey and takes forever to make it to the States. Also, my mirrored sleeve edition of "The Perfect Kiss" arrived soaking wet. They ultimately replaced it, but not without a fight, plus having to wait another few months for the replacement to arrive.
So, unless it's an exclusive item, I have pretty much given up on the New Order Store.
-Mike
Unfortunately, I've had similar experiences with the US store. I placed an order for Unity Tour merch as soon as it went on sale, prior to the start of the tour. It was never delivered and showed to be on indefinite back order. In trying to come to a resolution, their customer service was very lacking. Ultimately I was able to get a refund after months of waiting. The UK/EURO store was able to fill my order (but at a significantly higher cost) almost immediately.
When the US store shipped my PC&L bundle, my mirror cover TPK 12" arrived bent on the corners. I didn't even try to get a replacement after my last experience with them.
I think the US store is doing much better about filling orders, because both the bundle, and the poster (separately) have shipped. Now let's see how fast I receive them!
Got my red/blue vinyl edition via Rough Trade yesterday and it's gorgeous.
Fotz wrote:
Pash wrote:
Pash wrote:
- It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?
Just checked on Apple Music and I can hear the same issue on there, so that confirms it isn't just my disc...
Checked it out on headphones. Yes i think i know what you mean. Goes a bit wonky for a second or two.
Yeah, I hear this too. Not too noticeable but it's there.
The drop-out isn't present on the 1994 US BLT Maxi-Single version of the Dub.
Hopefully they'll fix it when they do the actual BLT 12" digital reissue.
Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.
Got my bundle in the mail today. Everything is in pristine condition - no bent corners.
Love the slipcase for the 4-disc set, and the open-sided slipcase for the cassettes.
I am VERY happy to confirm that The Perfect Kiss on the cassette is complete!
Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.
yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all
I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)
i've gotten my substance package today.
despite people complaints about crushed and damage.
there was nothing wrong, no issues.
everything came perfectly fine, now granted, this was from the US store.
so maybe overseas, or UK, or amazon doesn't pack as well
mine has some packing material, but there was a tshirt in there too.
i've already had everything in digital for a week or more now.
so no real use in opening any of these up. i did open up the colored vinyl though for display.
i'll get the poster later, and find a place for it.
later || || | || | ne gative 1
Spotted a difference on CD2. 'Murder' has the full 16 beats / 4 bars of drums before the guitars start - as heard on the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition CD2 version. Whereas the original 'Substance' and 12" versions started on beat 2 of the second bar, having just 11 beats before the guitar kicks in. Funny thing here, is the 2020 digital remaster single re-release only had the 11 beats and stayed authentic to the original 12". Funny that thee 'Substance' CD2 remaster didn't also stick to that. Wonder if it was just an oversight, or if there was any reasoning behind it?
Some early pressings of Blue Monday were missing the first beat. I think it all comes down to an engineer cueing up the tape to the wrong spot.
I don't mind that the drum intro is complete on Substance (I had also noticed this), but remains true on the 12". I like the version on the PC&L 2-disc edition best, which includes a little tape squelch right at the start.
50poundnote wrote: Some early pressings of Blue Monday were missing the first beat. I think it all comes down to an engineer cueing up the tape to the wrong spot.
I don't mind that the drum intro is complete on Substance (I had also noticed this), but remains true on the 12". I like the version on the PC&L 2-disc edition best, which includes a little tape squelch right at the start.
I've never heard any of the 'Blue Monday' vinyl pressings with the missing beat(s) (my 12" is the same as the 'Substance' version), but there were 7 beats missing from the versions on 'Blue Monday 95', 'International', and the first version of 'Singles'. A very strange mistake, meaning the first beat of the track in these erroneous versions is actually the 4th and final beat of the second bar of the song.
Mr Discography wrote: I've never heard any of the 'Blue Monday' vinyl pressings with the missing beat(s)
Correction - first TWO beats. If you have Recycle, the version of Blue Monday there is missing the first two beats. I believe Bruce used the Canadian pressing FACX10, which is what started us on the Recycle project in the first place.
50poundnote wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: I've never heard any of the 'Blue Monday' vinyl pressings with the missing beat(s)
Correction - first TWO beats. If you have Recycle, the version of Blue Monday there is missing the first two beats. I believe Bruce used the Canadian pressing FACX10, which is what started us on the Recycle project in the first place.
Speaking of; Dead or Alive is getting their Recycle: TownsendMusic.store
Andy wrote: Speaking of; Dead or Alive is getting their Recycle: TownsendMusic.store
Holy crap! I'd love to have this, but I'm only interested in CDs 5-18.
50poundnote wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: I've never heard any of the 'Blue Monday' vinyl pressings with the missing beat(s)
Correction - first TWO beats. If you have Recycle, the version of Blue Monday there is missing the first two beats. I believe Bruce used the Canadian pressing FACX10, which is what started us on the Recycle project in the first place.
So that means those pressings start with the 8x 16th note fast bass beats then?
Mr Discography wrote: So that means those pressings start with the 8x 16th note fast bass beats then?
Yep!
I'm sure it must be the Nelson Mandela effect, but we used to listen to the Blue Monday 12" obsessively circa 1985/86 when we were round at a mates playing on his BBC Micro and I always remembered the distinct bass drum intro has having SIX single beats before the double-time beats. Like it was burned into my brain
Hence it was always confusing when I heard later digital versions that didn't have all the beats. However - it now transpires that there were only ever TWO single beats at the start and I'm losing my mind
GotBlueEyes wrote: I'm sure it must be the Nelson Mandela effect, but we used to listen to the Blue Monday 12" obsessively circa 1985/86 when we were round at a mates playing on his BBC Micro and I always remembered the distinct bass drum intro has having SIX single beats before the double-time beats.
I could swear I've heard a copy with six beats at the intro as well.
50poundnote wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote: I'm sure it must be the Nelson Mandela effect, but we used to listen to the Blue Monday 12" obsessively circa 1985/86 when we were round at a mates playing on his BBC Micro and I always remembered the distinct bass drum intro has having SIX single beats before the double-time beats.
I could swear I've heard a copy with six beats at the intro as well.
AAAAARGH! Don't do this to me man! (heads to discogs to look for mid-80s pressings)
GotBlueEyes wrote: AAAAARGH! Don't do this to me man! (heads to discogs to look for mid-80s pressings)
I feel like that may have been something different, thought....either part of the Blue Monday '95 bundles, or on Retro, or International. One of the comps. But I could be wrong, that's just a suspicion.
None of the pressings have extra beats. Some have one (or more missing). The version on 'Substance' is the musically correct version, with two beats before the 16th note beats. That's the version that starts on the first beat of the first 4/4 bar, as they play it live.
Anything tagged as Blue Monday (Original Mix) on the '95 bundles, and the version on International, have one extra beat at the beginning - 3 beats instead of 2 before the 16th note kick drum.
50poundnote wrote: Anything tagged as Blue Monday (Original Mix) on the '95 bundles, and the version on International, have one extra beat at the beginning - 3 beats instead of 2 before the 16th note kick drum.
Those versions are actually almost two bars shorter, having 7 beats missing from the start, meaning the first beat is actually the 4th and final beat of the second bar of the song.
here's my substantial substance collection . ha ha
this includes the new tshirt, the cd collection, the new cassette, the vinyl, and colored vinyl the original cd, original cassettes (2 boxes, 1 is better replacement), a collection of the original release and 12 inches, all the remastered 12 inches, the tote bag, and pins
later || | | | || ne gative 1
and here are the remastered 12 inches, front and back.
i never had the original UK true faith remix 12 inch,
i'm surprised they put 1963 on there again, instead of remix or something else.
i saw the australian one with the paradise remix, so of course i got that with the limited money i had. i didn't get the UK true faith original either, because i got the US 12 inch with the same cover. however it had the remixes on it, and not the 12 inch versions.
later || | | | | || ne gative 1
Mr Discography wrote: None of the pressings have extra beats. Some have one (or more missing). The version on 'Substance' is the musically correct version, with two beats before the 16th note beats. That's the version that starts on the first beat of the first 4/4 bar, as they play it live.
Just verified the above with the 'Blue Monday 95' version of this. Here's where the following sections start;
First synth line starts fading in
- 'Substance' version: 0:15
- 95 version: 0:11
Bassline and full drums start
- 'Substance' version: 0:30
- 95 version: 0:27
Hooky's bass guitar starts
- 'Substance' version: 1:17
- 95 version: 1:14
So the versions that appear to have extra beats at the start, are actually shorter at the start, missing earlier beats.
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.
yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all
I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)
So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:
- FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
- 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions + 2019 remastered 'Temptation' single : version without the above echoes
I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.
So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.
Mr Discography wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.
yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all
I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)
So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:
- FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
- 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions: version without the above echoes
I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.
So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.
Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!
As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?
GotBlueEyes wrote: [ Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!
As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?
Not something I have time for really - only noticed the differences in 'Hurt' as a result of the 'Substance' re-release. Can't imagine the other tracks on '1981-1982' are any different, but who knows for sure!
Based on my above findings, I've actually created my own 'Alternate Expanded Edition' version in my own digital music library, editing three tracks, and switching out two tracks in favour of their original 1987 'Substance' originals (with the average volume levels carefully matched to those of the newer 2023 remastered counterparts using the Wavehammer plugin in Sound Forge, to give the playlist a consistent volume). These are my changes, that provide me with what I feel is a slightly more authentic version of the remastered 'Substance':
Disc 1:
- Edited the end of the remastered 'The Perfect Kiss' and the start of the remastered 'Subculture', to reproduce the the gap between the end of 'The Perfect Kiss' and 'Subculture' (which is around 3 seconds shorter on the original 'Substance'). On the original, 'Subculture' kicks in just as that funny "goblin" sound at the end of 'The Perfect Kiss' begins to fade out (it's either a very tight edit, or a slight crossfade). I've heard the album so many times, I find myself getting impatient waiting for 'Subculture' to start - so I recreated this gap in SoundForge to give me a remastered version that reproduces this shorter segue. Yes I know, very sad.
Disc 2:
- Replaced the remastered 'Hurt' with the version from the original 'Substance' CD2 version (with a volume boost), as this correctly edits down the master from the original 12", rather than the alternate take from '1981-1982' and the 2019 remastered 'Temptation' single
- Edited the remastered 'Murder' to remove the first 11 beats that never appeared on the original 12", the original 'Substance', or the 2020 remastered single
- Replaced the remastered 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' with the original 'Substance' CD2 version as the 2023 remaster and the 2020 remastered version on the re-released 'Murder' single are re-created edits of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53, plus reproducing a looped section from 3:35 that repeats at 3:52. The edits at 1:49-1:53 are actually more in time with the beat of the track than in the original 12"/'Substance' version (these would have been clumsy tape edits). The loop edit at 3:52 is ever-so slightly different and later than the tighter tape edit in the original. In the interest of authenticity, I've used the original version from the 1987 'Substance' (with a volume boost) - as I kind of like hearing those mistimed tape edits.
Disc 3: I made no changes to these tracks, although I noted:
- 'Temptation (Original 12'): as with the re-released single digital remaster, this has a slightly longer fade in, which starts at an earlier point than the original release - trivial minor difference
- 'Bizarre Dub Triangle': there's a slight dulling in the high frequencies between 6:27 and 6:30 (most noticeable in the hi-hats). I have another digital version of this on the Canadian 'Bizarre Love Triangle' CD single, but the 2023 'Substance' remaster has a warmer sound, so I've stuck with this version in my 'Alternate Expanded Edition', as I can live with that brief fluctuation. Hope they can fix this when the digital re-release of the 'Bizarre Love Triangle' 12' single comes out with the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition.
So, I adore the track selection and remastering for this new version, but my attention to detail made me make some tiny adjustments to the timings and versions in my digital audio library to get the proper, authentic, definitive version of it at long last! I have this on my digital music library and iPod as a playlist reproducing the running order of the original 28 track cassette - great to have a remastered version to listen to that has versions all sounding exactly as they originally did in 1987!
Ordered in Nov 11th. Took me a while thanks to Brazil's new taxation policy. It was kept held at customs all this time, but it's finally here.
The packaging looks a bit flimsy, but it's Ok for a 4xCD bargain.
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote:
GotBlueEyes wrote:
Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.
yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all
I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)
So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:
- FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
- 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions: version without the above echoes
I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.
So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.
Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!
As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?
This actually means that the original, FAC63 UK 12" version of 'Hurt' has never been released on CD or digitally, even after well over 40 years. Wonder if the master tape still exists?
Mr Discography wrote:
This actually means that the original, FAC63 UK 12" version of 'Hurt' has never been released on CD or digitally, even after well over 40 years. Wonder if the master tape still exists?
12" version from the "Recycle blog" ?
Jcp7 wrote: 12" version from the "Recycle blog" ?
No, we sourced it from the Canadian 1981-1982 CD because we had no idea it was a slightly different mix. I just checked to make sure.
Not sure it occurred to me before but the intro and outro to Procession is kind of like some Tangerine Dream esque Prog. Those keys.70s Prog keyboard sounds.Makes sense actually as a young 1970s Stephen was quite into Tangerine Dream wasn't he?
