Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

GotBlueEyes wrote: AAAAARGH! Don't do this to me man! (heads to discogs to look for mid-80s pressings)

I feel like that may have been something different, thought....either part of the Blue Monday '95 bundles, or on Retro, or International. One of the comps. But I could be wrong, that's just a suspicion.

None of the pressings have extra beats. Some have one (or more missing). The version on 'Substance' is the musically correct version, with two beats before the 16th note beats. That's the version that starts on the first beat of the first 4/4 bar, as they play it live.

Anything tagged as Blue Monday (Original Mix) on the '95 bundles, and the version on International, have one extra beat at the beginning - 3 beats instead of 2 before the 16th note kick drum.

50poundnote wrote: Anything tagged as Blue Monday (Original Mix) on the '95 bundles, and the version on International, have one extra beat at the beginning - 3 beats instead of 2 before the 16th note kick drum.

Those versions are actually almost two bars shorter, having 7 beats missing from the start, meaning the first beat is actually the 4th and final beat of the second bar of the song.

here's my substantial substance collection . ha ha

this includes the new tshirt, the cd collection, the new cassette, the vinyl, and colored vinyl the original cd, original cassettes (2 boxes, 1 is better replacement), a collection of the original release and 12 inches, all the remastered 12 inches, the tote bag, and pins

later || | | | || ne gative 1

and here are the remastered 12 inches, front and back.

i never had the original UK true faith remix 12 inch,

i'm surprised they put 1963 on there again, instead of remix or something else.

i saw the australian one with the paradise remix, so of course i got that with the limited money i had. i didn't get the UK true faith original either, because i got the US 12 inch with the same cover. however it had the remixes on it, and not the 12 inch versions.

later || | | | | || ne gative 1

poster arrived, fits in well with the others.

later || | | | | || n egative 1

Mr Discography wrote: None of the pressings have extra beats. Some have one (or more missing). The version on 'Substance' is the musically correct version, with two beats before the 16th note beats. That's the version that starts on the first beat of the first 4/4 bar, as they play it live.

Just verified the above with the 'Blue Monday 95' version of this. Here's where the following sections start;

First synth line starts fading in

• 'Substance' version: 0:15
• 95 version: 0:11

Bassline and full drums start

• 'Substance' version: 0:30
• 95 version: 0:27

Hooky's bass guitar starts

• 'Substance' version: 1:17
• 95 version: 1:14

So the versions that appear to have extra beats at the start, are actually shorter at the start, missing earlier beats.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.

yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all

I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)

So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:

• FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
• 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions + 2019 remastered 'Temptation' single : version without the above echoes

I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.

So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.

Mr Discography wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.

yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all

I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)

So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:

• FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
• 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions: version without the above echoes

I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.

So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.

Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!

As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?

GotBlueEyes wrote: [ Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!

As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?

Not something I have time for really - only noticed the differences in 'Hurt' as a result of the 'Substance' re-release. Can't imagine the other tracks on '1981-1982' are any different, but who knows for sure!

Based on my above findings, I've actually created my own 'Alternate Expanded Edition' version in my own digital music library, editing three tracks, and switching out two tracks in favour of their original 1987 'Substance' originals (with the average volume levels carefully matched to those of the newer 2023 remastered counterparts using the Wavehammer plugin in Sound Forge, to give the playlist a consistent volume). These are my changes, that provide me with what I feel is a slightly more authentic version of the remastered 'Substance':

Disc 1:

• Edited the end of the remastered 'The Perfect Kiss' and the start of the remastered 'Subculture', to reproduce the the gap between the end of 'The Perfect Kiss' and 'Subculture' (which is around 3 seconds shorter on the original 'Substance'). On the original, 'Subculture' kicks in just as that funny "goblin" sound at the end of 'The Perfect Kiss' begins to fade out (it's either a very tight edit, or a slight crossfade). I've heard the album so many times, I find myself getting impatient waiting for 'Subculture' to start - so I recreated this gap in SoundForge to give me a remastered version that reproduces this shorter segue. Yes I know, very sad.

Disc 2:

• Replaced the remastered 'Hurt' with the version from the original 'Substance' CD2 version (with a volume boost), as this correctly edits down the master from the original 12", rather than the alternate take from '1981-1982' and the 2019 remastered 'Temptation' single
• Edited the remastered 'Murder' to remove the first 11 beats that never appeared on the original 12", the original 'Substance', or the 2020 remastered single
• Replaced the remastered 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' with the original 'Substance' CD2 version as the 2023 remaster and the 2020 remastered version on the re-released 'Murder' single are re-created edits of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53, plus reproducing a looped section from 3:35 that repeats at 3:52. The edits at 1:49-1:53 are actually more in time with the beat of the track than in the original 12"/'Substance' version (these would have been clumsy tape edits). The loop edit at 3:52 is ever-so slightly different and later than the tighter tape edit in the original. In the interest of authenticity, I've used the original version from the 1987 'Substance' (with a volume boost) - as I kind of like hearing those mistimed tape edits.

Disc 3: I made no changes to these tracks, although I noted:

• 'Temptation (Original 12'): as with the re-released single digital remaster, this has a slightly longer fade in, which starts at an earlier point than the original release - trivial minor difference
• 'Bizarre Dub Triangle': there's a slight dulling in the high frequencies between 6:27 and 6:30 (most noticeable in the hi-hats). I have another digital version of this on the Canadian 'Bizarre Love Triangle' CD single, but the 2023 'Substance' remaster has a warmer sound, so I've stuck with this version in my 'Alternate Expanded Edition', as I can live with that brief fluctuation. Hope they can fix this when the digital re-release of the 'Bizarre Love Triangle' 12' single comes out with the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition.

So, I adore the track selection and remastering for this new version, but my attention to detail made me make some tiny adjustments to the timings and versions in my digital audio library to get the proper, authentic, definitive version of it at long last! I have this on my digital music library and iPod as a playlist reproducing the running order of the original 28 track cassette - great to have a remastered version to listen to that has versions all sounding exactly as they originally did in 1987!

Ordered in Nov 11th. Took me a while thanks to Brazil's new taxation policy. It was kept held at customs all this time, but it's finally here.

The packaging looks a bit flimsy, but it's Ok for a 4xCD bargain.

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Something interesting about the 'Hurt' 'Substance' edit... The 'Substance' edit cuts out 4:01 to 5:10 from the original 12" version. After the point at which the edit occurs in the original 'Substance' edit, the vocals for two bars have a delay/echo effect on them. The equivalent point from 5:10 in the original version, and from 4:01 in the new 'Substance' edit doesn't have that echo. This suggests that the original 'Substance' edit was made from an alternate mixdown, and that the new 'Substance' edit is actually the more authentic version, being an edit of the original 12" version.

yeah, that's weird, listening to the original Substance edit and there are more differences in the reverb/delay treatment of vocals and drums at the 5:10 mark - where he sings "I'm quite determined" it has the same echo/delay as the lines after 4:01 and the drum break after that line also has immediate delay on it and "no more mistakes" has huge echo. On the 12"/New Substance edit the drum break doesn't get any effects until the 2nd snare beat and "no more mistakes" has no echo on it at all

I guess they compiled the edit in 1987 from the wrong master (similar to the mistake made with the IALP version?)

So the plot thickens on this one. I had a listen to various versions of the full length 'Hurt', and there definitely are two versions:

• FAC 63 original 12": version with the echo on the voice at 5:10 and around 6:20 ("no more mistakes")
• 1981-1982 - 12" and CD versions: version without the above echoes

I suspect there are other subtle differences in both takes.

So, we are dealing with two different versions floating around, just as we were with 'In A Lonely Place'. In actual fact it seems the "authentic" original version is the one with more echoes, as that was on the original 12". The assumption is '1981-1982' mistakenly used an alternate take, and that alternate take was used to create the new 2023 Substance edit. This therefore means the most "authentic" version of the Substance edit is, in fact, the original from the 1987 issue.

Top sleuthing - still amazes me that we're continuing to identify the vagaries of the catalog after all this time!

As the single came out in May 82 and the 1981-82 comp came out in the November, I guess they must have just sent the wrong master mix to the US for the compilation. Are you tempted to do the forensics on the rest of the 1981-82 mixes to see if any other differences leap out?

This actually means that the original, FAC63 UK 12" version of 'Hurt' has never been released on CD or digitally, even after well over 40 years. Wonder if the master tape still exists?

Mr Discography wrote:

This actually means that the original, FAC63 UK 12" version of 'Hurt' has never been released on CD or digitally, even after well over 40 years. Wonder if the master tape still exists?

12" version from the "Recycle blog" ?

Jcp7 wrote: 12" version from the "Recycle blog" ?

No, we sourced it from the Canadian 1981-1982 CD because we had no idea it was a slightly different mix. I just checked to make sure.

Not sure it occurred to me before but the intro and outro to Procession is kind of like some Tangerine Dream esque Prog. Those keys.70s Prog keyboard sounds.Makes sense actually as a young 1970s Stephen was quite into Tangerine Dream wasn't he?