Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance
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I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
Andy wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
Johnny James wrote:
Andy wrote:
50poundnote wrote: I'll backtrack my earlier statements and say it doesn't necessarily need the box set treatment with a book and DVDs, but it needs to be done right, mopping up all the tracks from the reissued 12" singles across multiple CDs, and a nice gatefold double LP.
I tend to agree. I'm not sure there is a lot of bonus audio material from that era but will be happy to be proved wrong.
But I do want to believe there would be an increase in available video footage as their profile rose. Although stuff like them lip-synching at San Remo isn't particularly compelling, surely there are other appearances and gig footage that fit better here than in the Brotherhood box.
There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
Sad news. I figured Academy was a given but it's disappointing to learn that there isn't much available. Still, it's better to learn this now to temper our expectations.
Johnny James wrote: There isn't much. There's not even a huge amount for Brotherhood.
I really wish there was a soundboard recording of the show at New York City's Pier 84, August 25, 1987 (my 17th birthday). Otherwise known as the Chapter III bootleg, it's my favorite New Order gig, and they play four songs from Brotherhood.
Someone could take a shot at combining the known recordings into one composite mix.
i don't know what would be needed on the cd version. besides a remaster. a deluxe version would get out of hand with all the mixes etc.
of course, doing a vinyl boxset would be easy. just take all the current remasters. throw in true faith (uk), and true faith remix (australian) and call it a day.
so they would be:------------------1 ceremony 12 ceremony 23 everythings gone green4 temptation - hurt5 blue monday6 confusion7 thieves like us8 murder9 perfect kiss10 subculture11 shellshock12 state of the nation13 bizarre love triangle14 true faith15 true faith remix=====1 greenNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/122 white blueNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/12Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Reissue, Repress, Cream/Blue Sleeve3 everythings gone greenLabel: Factory Benelux – FBNL 8Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium4 temptation - hurtLabel: Factory – fac 63Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK5 blue mondayLabel: Factory – FAC 73Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK6 confusionLabel: Factory – Fac 93Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Embossed SleeveCountry: UK7 thieves like usLabel: Factory – FAC 103Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK8 murderLabel: Factory Benelux – FBN 22Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium9 perfect kissLabel: Factory – Fac 123Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Stereo, Black Inner Sleeve, MPO PressingCountry: UK10 subcultureLabel: Factory – fac 133Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK11 shellshockLabel: Factory – Fac 143Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK12 state of the nationLabel: Factory – FAC 153Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK13 bizarre love triangleLabel: Factory – FAC 163Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK14 true faithLabel: Factory – Fac 183Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK15 true faith remixLabel: Factory Records Australasia – Fac 183RFormat: Vinyl, 12", 33 RPMCountry: Australia
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negative1 wrote: i don't know what would be needed on the cd version. besides a remaster. a deluxe version would get out of hand with all the mixes etc.
of course, doing a vinyl boxset would be easy. just take all the current remasters. throw in true faith (uk), and true faith remix (australian) and call it a day.
so they would be:------------------1 ceremony 12 ceremony 23 everythings gone green4 temptation - hurt5 blue monday6 confusion7 thieves like us8 murder9 perfect kiss10 subculture11 shellshock12 state of the nation13 bizarre love triangle14 true faith15 true faith remix=====1 greenNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/122 white blueNew Order – CeremonyLabel: Factory – FAC. 33, Factory – FAC 33/12Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Reissue, Repress, Cream/Blue Sleeve3 everythings gone greenLabel: Factory Benelux – FBNL 8Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium4 temptation - hurtLabel: Factory – fac 63Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK5 blue mondayLabel: Factory – FAC 73Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK6 confusionLabel: Factory – Fac 93Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Embossed SleeveCountry: UK7 thieves like usLabel: Factory – FAC 103Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK8 murderLabel: Factory Benelux – FBN 22Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: Belgium9 perfect kissLabel: Factory – Fac 123Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, Stereo, Black Inner Sleeve, MPO PressingCountry: UK10 subcultureLabel: Factory – fac 133Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, Single, StereoCountry: UK11 shellshockLabel: Factory – Fac 143Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK12 state of the nationLabel: Factory – FAC 153Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK13 bizarre love triangleLabel: Factory – FAC 163Format: Vinyl, 12", Single, 45 RPMCountry: UK14 true faithLabel: Factory – Fac 183Format: Vinyl, 12", 45 RPM, SingleCountry: UK15 true faith remixLabel: Factory Records Australasia – Fac 183RFormat: Vinyl, 12", 33 RPMCountry: Australialater
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Plus the Procession 7" as a bonus ;)
Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Mr. Disco wrote: Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Yes, Fotz beat you to it in the Ceremony section.
Debaser wrote:
Mr. Disco wrote: Stephen just revealed they're going to reissue Substance (including bonus/live tracks??).
From 1h17min:
Yes, Fotz beat you to it in the Ceremony section.
I guess because they discuss the upcoming gigs. But it makes sense to mention the reissue in this thread.
Does this count as an announcement of a Definitive Substance set? There is speculation that he meant the Brotherhood box. Would you be able to clarify this, Johnny James?
Good news. Given how far in advance they have to pick tracks and prepare the releases, I guess this means it might be coming between the 'Brotherhood' and 'Technique' definitive editions. Or perhaps an accompanying release at the same time as 'Brotherhood' so the 12" singles from 'State Of The Nation' to 'Blue Monday 1988' can all come out simultaneously without us lot having to worry about whether each should be associated with 'Brotherhood' or 'Substance'! I assume the live versions they spoke about in the interview would be a DVD rather than bonus live CD.
I've stated it several times before, but I'd do the following:
- Double vinyl with same 12 tracks and versions as original LP (including 1987 re-recordings of 'Temptation' and 'Confusion', 'Substance' edits of 'Shellshock' and 'Sub-Culture' and the full length 'The Perfect Kiss' - which the original LP included)
- 3 x CD containing all tracks on the original double cassette release (including 1987 re-recordings of 'Temptation' and 'Confusion' and 'Substance' edits of 'Shellshock', 'Sub-Culture' and 'Hurt' as per the original tracklist), with following changes: --Full length 'The Perfect Kiss' 12", as per the original LP version --Correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' (the original 'Substance' featured the alternate version, not the original 12" version) --Put 'Murder' between 'Lonesome Tonight' and 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' on CD2 (to make CD1 have the same 12 tracks as the original vinyl) --Obviously get the track titles the right way round for 'Cries & Whispers' followed by 'Mesh' this time!
It' s my (and many others') favourite album, so no need to mess with the running order or track selection in any major way - otherwise it ceases to be the 'Substance' I know and love.
Also simultaneously release the 7" singles digitally, so they can accompany the 12" singles released digitally so far, and we can finally get digital versions of the B-side edits and Dub edits yet to be released digitally - be great for these to be available on digital stores and streaming at long last.
Johnny, now it's been "announced" in some form, anything you can tell us about where in the Definitive Edition schedule the 'Substance' reissue is expected to land?
EDIT: But yes, reckon it's very likely Steve meant Brotherhood and said Substance by mistake. Perhaps Johnny can confirm?
I've always imagined there was a soundboard recording of this made for posterity as it's a very particular setlist. However, I've only ever found the audience recording. The intro to "True Faith" might be problematic for release though, and not just for borrowing "The Passenger"!:
Here you go :
links and more... 4xcd and 2xcd
looks like a good listing... have at it:
4CD Definitive Edition US - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwan-20 CA - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwanca-20 UK - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CHV27J7G/?tag=imwan-21
2CD Expanded Edition (contains CD1 and CD2 only) US - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwan-20 CA - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwanca-20 UK - Available for pre-order soon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0CHTM3ZMG/?tag=imwan-21
Tracklist [CD1]
- Ceremony (Version 2) [2019 Remaster]
- Everythings Gone Green (2019 Remaster)
- Temptation '87 (2023 Remaster)
- Blue Monday (2020 Remaster)
- Confusion '87 (2023 Remaster)
- Thieves Like Us (2020 Remaster)
- The Perfect Kiss (2022 Remaster)
- Sub-Culture (John Robie Remix) [Substance Edit] [2023 Remaster]
- Shellshock (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
- State Of The Nation (2023 Remaster)
- Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
- True Faith (2023 Digital Master)
[CD2]
- In A Lonely Place (2019 Remaster)
- Procession (2015 Remaster)
- Cries And Whispers (2019 Remaster)
- Hurt (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
- The Beach (2020 Remaster)
- Confusion (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
- Lonesome Tonight (2020 Remaster)
- Murder (2020 Remaster)
- Thieves Like Us (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
- The Kiss Of Death (2022 Remaster)
- Shame Of The Nation (2023 Remaster)
- 1963 (2023 Digital Master)
[CD3]
- Ceremony (Version 1) [2019 Remaster]
- Mesh (2019 Remaster)
- Temptation (2018 Remaster)
- Confusion (2020 Remaster)
- Perfect Pit (2022 Remaster)
- Dub-Vulture (John Robie Remix) [2022 Remaster]
- Shellcock (2022 Remaster)
- Bizarre Dub Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix)
- True Dub (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
- Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Remaster)
- True Faith (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Digital Master]
[CD4]
- Ceremony (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Everythings Gone Green (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Temptation (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Blue Monday (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Confusion (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Thieves Like Us (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- The Perfect Kiss (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- Sub-Culture (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- Shellshock (Substance Edit) [Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
- State Of The Nation (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- Bizarre Love Triangle (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
- True Faith (Live At Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
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Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
Everything from the original cassette version, plus bonus original Temptation, original Confusion, Perfect Pit, True Dub, True Faith Remix, Ceremony (original), Confusion Dub '87. Plus Irvine Meadows gig where they played a Substance set.
I think the only thing missing of note from 12"s would be Confused Beats and Confusion Rough Mix, which isn't much of a loss (and would be a bit Confusion heavy). Oh, and full Sub-Culture and Shellshock mixes (again, no great loss, given how repetitive they are). Hurt appears to be the edit, as well. Assuming TPK is full-length.
Any press release for this?
Incidentally, UK links don't work.
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Ace! I look forward to that. Still - looks mighty tasty, Johnny. Take my money already.
perspexorange wrote: Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
Everything from the original cassette version, plus bonus original Temptation, original Confusion, Perfect Pit, True Dub, True Faith Remix, Ceremony (original), Confusion Dub '87. Plus Irvine Meadows gig where they played a Substance set.
i wouldn't call it perfect, there are still tracks and edits missing. what happened to the paradise remix? and the remix edits?
other confusion mixes, etc.. as you mentioned.
Any press release for this?
Incidentally, UK links don't work.
yes, it said that UK - Available for pre-order soon:
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negative1 wrote:
perspexorange wrote: Wow! This looks nigh on perfect.
i wouldn't call it perfect, there are still tracks and edits missing. what happened to the paradise remix? and the remix edits?
other confusion mixes, etc.. as you mentioned.
That's why I said 'nigh on', meaning 'near' perfect. ![[;)]](/emoticons/wink.gif){kind=small}
I guess they had to make a judgment call. To include full length Hurt, Sub-Culture, Shellshock, 2 x Confusion remixes, Paradise remix would've presumably meant an extra disc, some wasted space, and a fair amount of repetitive remixes (especially Confusion). There's probably a handful of other things too, but nothing major (True Faith 7" remix, exclusive edit of Sub-Culture on the Factory Banelux release, the soundtrack variants of Shellshock etc.), but there's an argument that these aren't the 12" versions anyway, and that's what Substance was all about - 12"s plus b-sides. If you include everything, you have to include 7"s, which would just get a bit stupid (and not what Substance was all about).
I guess they could've skipped the Irvine Meadows disc to make room for missing mixes, but I for one am glad that this is included. I'd imagine that the inclusion of that might tempt some fans who are on the fence on buying it, as it's 'new material'.
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Digital Master) already available.
Jcp7 wrote: Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Digital Master) already available.
Not sure why all of the qobuz tracks say 2023 Digital Master. Surely they haven’t been remastered again.
I think the descriptions given in -ve1’s post are probably more accurate.
perspexorange wrote:
Not sure why all of the qobuz tracks say 2023 Digital Master. Surely they haven’t been remastered again.
I think the descriptions given in -ve1’s post are probably more accurate.
Juno has Confusion Dub '87 as a 2023 DM as well.
No Box set with vinyl mentioned yet, surely will be a vinyl version even if not a box set?
Andy wrote:
Johnny James wrote: This is supposed to be embargoed until tomorrow.
Proper announcement then.
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Pretty much, it was something we can deliver this year rather than next.
My favourite ever album finally gets a deluxe version - nice! Very happy with this tracklisting. Looks like they've paid some attention to suggestions from myself and others on here about not mucking about with the versions too much - glad to see most of the 'Substance Edits' have been kept apart from 'The Perfect Kiss'
Interesting they've preserved the original 2 x CD running order, but glad to see all the tracks from the original tape + more swept up on CD3. My first version of Substance as a 13 year old was the double tape, so I'll be able to reassemble a remastered version of the whole thing from this CD set!
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
Will there be a vinyl version?
Time to re-release all the 7" singles digitally with remastered A and B side edits to accompany the release?
Well done!
Mr Discography wrote: My favourite ever album finally gets a deluxe version - nice! Very happy with this tracklisting. Looks like they've paid some attention to suggestions from myself and others on here about not mucking about with the versions too much - glad to see most of the 'Substance Edits' have been kept apart from 'The Perfect Kiss'
Interesting they've preserved the original 2 x CD running order, but glad to see all the tracks from the original tape + more swept up on CD3. My first version of Substance as a 13 year old was the double tape, so I'll be able to reassemble a remastered version of the whole thing from this CD set!
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
Will there be a vinyl version?
Time to re-release all the 7" singles digitally with remastered A and B side edits to accompany the release?
Well done!
How about a box set of all the 7” singles in original Sleeves A 32 single box!!
Mr Discography wrote:
Why are the live versions of Shellshock and Subculture labelled as 'Substance Edits' - edited to fit on CD4, or a tracklist mistake?
The listings leaked so far seem to be from an early draft that we've now corrected, it's also not in San Bernadino. The fact that they say TPK is a Substance Edit shows that it's a copy and paste mistake.....
However, by coincidence, the live Subculture/Shellshock have in fact been edited, the artwork will explain (Subculture comes along around the 45 minute mark ;).
Ooh! It's been quiet here recently so I've only just stumbled on this news. I guess Steve wasn't mistaken when he said in that radio interview that he was dealing with Substance (not Brotherhood).
perspexorange wrote: I guess they had to make a judgment call. To include full length Hurt, Sub-Culture, Shellshock, 2 x Confusion remixes, Paradise remix would've presumably meant an extra disc, some wasted space, and a fair amount of repetitive remixes (especially Confusion).
Johnny James wrote:
Andy wrote:
Why is this releasing before a Brotherhood box? Is it simply due to it being easier to compile?
Pretty much, it was something we can deliver this year rather than next.
Well Johnny James, Paradise remix is a no brainer for Brotherhood then. Particularly as you said there wasn't much in the way of extras for that album. Brotherhood's going to be the runt of the liitter isn't it?
neil larkcom wrote: How about a box set of all the 7” singles in original Sleeves A 32 single box!!
Fleece me baby one more time! I'd probably get suckered into this TBH.
