Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

50poundnote wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.

Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.

Not that I'm arguing, but this version states it has the 8:02 edit:

https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance

Of course, Discogs could be wrong (like the aforementioned 'Murder' location), and I can no longer check my cassette copies to verify.

perspexorange wrote: Not that I'm arguing, but this version states it has the 8:02 edit:

https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance

Of course, Discogs could be wrong (like the aforementioned 'Murder' location), and I can no longer check my cassette copies to verify.

The Discogs entry is wrong. I have the linen box and it's the same as every other cassette issue.

Mr Discography wrote:

Also, I'm getting so tired of these articles obsessing over the dynamic range of releases. Sure, those 90s Oasis albums were brickwalled, but more recent remasters are nowhere near as severe. If "audiophiles" didn't anally run each and every CD and vinyl grab through audio software, they'd never even notice the difference.

Honestly, all this bitching about a 4dB RMS difference is nuts. I got the 4 x CD and listened to disc 1 today - thought it sounded superb. A lovely remastering. Very satisfied with it. It's beautiful, and better than the tinny original. Will truly be my "definitive" edition.

I agree with you. On discogs and Facebook, they are all complaining about the CDs and the vinyls.

I've listened CD1and CD2 today. The sound quality is far better than my 1987 original 2CD!

50poundnote wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.

Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.

Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.

My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.

This also describes my experience of Shellshock.

According to Discogs, the 2023 2xcassettes set includes BDT (25 tracks). 😕

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:

Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)

What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?

Whoever was at the mixing desk had to flip the tape. DATs were released to market in 1987, but I'm sure the band was using standard cassette tapes at the time.

Yep sorry - you are correct, I had mis-remembered the page on the MDM archive as being a DAT https://www.mdmarchive.co.uk/artefact/2560/NEW\_ORDER\_MASTER\_TAPE\_1987

Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder

GotBlueEyes wrote: Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder

The booklet says patched. I haven't listened closely enough yet to notice anything. It also indicates a patch in Shellshock.

50poundnote wrote:

GotBlueEyes wrote: Tape is a C90 and Subculture starts around 43 minutes into the set, so the tape flip idea is clearly spot on, but is it a patched edit or the two tracks dropped in lock, stock and barrel from the other two shows I wonder

The booklet says patched. I haven't listened closely enough yet to notice anything. It also indicates a patch in Shellshock.

Just listened to the live CD4. If 'Subculture' and 'Shellshock' are both composites of the two performances, I have no clue where the edit is. I expected to hear an obvious point in both where the mix or sound quality changes, but I hear nothing. Johnny, are the two tracks completely taken from the other performances?

Gotta say, CD4 is astonishing. That has to be New Order's best ever gig, surely? Must have been so exciting after 'Temptation' kicked in, then 'Blue Monday' started and the crowd began to realise they're doing it.... They're playing their first 12 twelve inches in order. Eventually being certain what song was going to come next. Decades before most bands were playing classic albums live in their entirety. Love it - almost brought me to tears hearing my favourite album live. 80s sequencers; ramshackle; mastered from an old cassette; Barney adding his trademark rude lyrics to 'The Perfect Kiss', then cracking up; singing songs in the wrong octave as he often did back then; proper punk. 'Ceremony' sounding the best live it ever has; 'True Faith' in the same classic original live arrangement they used right up to Reading 1993 (wish they'd go back to that version live these days); hell, even 'State Of The Nation' rocks. Must be my favourite New Order live recording. Steve was saying in that recent 6 Music interview that they couldn't find any good live recordings of 'Shellshock', but that version back then was awesome - so electronic, experimental and playful. Although the crowd noise is quiet, I love the great screams you can hear as each single starts playing - amazing reaction. Even having the audio artefacts from the cassette gives it a lovely authenticity you wouldn't have got from a DAT soundboard. So glad this has been released.

My CD box from Amazon was also a bit squashed and creased, but I'm keeping it like that - reminds me of my weathered old double tape box. And once it's been ripped into my audio library, it'll probably sit in a box in the attic anyway.

Only downside of CD4 is 'The Passenger' intro to 'True Faith' is edited out (obviously with Barney's cheeky comments just before it) - I always thought that 'Passenger' intro was inspired, hearing it with the 'True Faith' snare drum playing in the background, then clumsily falling into the 'True Faith' beat. Was it removed for publishing/licencing reasons Johnny? I agree with other comments that it'd also be great if 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' and 'Sister Ray' could be released digitally so we can get the whole concert. Would love to hear how the crowd reacted to 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' starting up.

So jealous of everyone who was there - is there anyone on this forum that was at it?

Mr Discography wrote: Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.

I stand corrected. I got all my cassette copies out and checked. The linen box and standard Factory double cassette in a slipcase end side one with Murder, and start side two with the CD edit of The Perfect Kiss. The US cassette does not include Murder, and has the full-length version of TPK. Both UK and US vinyl include the full-length version. It will be interesting to see which version is on the new cassette, but mine hasn't arrived yet.

I'm sure I was misremembering it because I had the actual 12", and used to put it on mixtapes, so my brain was thinking "cassette = full version."

50poundnote wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Nope. My Factory 1987 cassette had the CD Substance edit. I know, because when I bought the 12" a few years later I was really surprised to hear the extra section in it.

I stand corrected. I got all my cassette copies out and checked. The linen box and standard Factory double cassette in a slipcase end side one with Murder, and start side two with the CD edit of The Perfect Kiss. The US cassette does not include Murder, and has the full-length version of TPK. Both UK and US vinyl include the full-length version. It will be interesting to see which version is on the new cassette, but mine hasn't arrived yet.

I'm sure I was misremembering it because I had the actual 12", and used to put it on mixtapes, so my brain was thinking "cassette = full version."

That's really interesting about the US cassette - never knew the full length version was on any Substance tapes.

Amazed you still have a working tape player!

Also possible you were thinking of the 'Low-life' cassette which featured the full versions of all three TPK 12" tracks across the end of both sides..

Didn't buy but had a bit of a listen on streaming. Detected more detail in audio and cleaner, more sprightly & less brutal for example on BLT. Mind you, i did have my bi-annual micro suction of both ears just last week so my hearing is shit hot right now.What? Live disc, think i've moved on from ramshackle old live recordings, not sure i like the old live stuff so much anymore.

Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.

Fotz wrote:

Live disc, think i've moved on from ramshackle old live recordings, not sure i like the old live stuff so much anymore.

I’ve gone the other way. I rarely listened to them back in the day. Now I can’t get enough of live New Order. Chaotic sometimes, but always so exciting. What a band!

Mr Discography wrote: Also possible you were thinking of the 'Low-life' cassette which featured the full versions of all three TPK 12" tracks across the end of both sides..

The US cassette for Low-life doesn't include those.

Substance was my first New Order album purchase back in '87, and I've worn out my copy of the double cassette having played it so much. So I was pleased to see news of this reissue, especially the 4 CD set.

I've played CDs 1 to 3 so far and I really enjoyed listening to them - there was a crispness and clarity which I appreciated, and I heard bits I haven't noticed before. I have no comment on dynamic range, but didn't find the listening process in any way fatiguing. I even managed to get through more out-there mixes by John Robie, although I might not repeat that for some time.

A couple of points:

1. I noticed that what is listed on my original UK tape/CD copies as Confused Instrumental is now listed as Confusion Instrumental. I'd never noticed previously that the original 12" FAC93 listed the track as Confusion Instrumental, as did (according to Discogs) the US CD pressings, so I've learnt something new; and

2. It might be my disc 3, or my ears, but it sounds to me like the hi-hat on Bizarre Dub Triangle loses some presence, and its position in the stereo image, between 6.27 and 6.30. Anyone else notice this?

Regardless, very pleased that this was released, and look forward to hearing CD 4.

Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.

What do you mean?

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.

What do you mean?

Oh it's nothing major, just a kind of spinning whirring noise on rhe right side at the start. Most prominent the first 4-5 seconds before the synth comes in. It is there after that but not so clear and then at 19 seconds the drums kick in and the sound disappears.

I didn't buy the remastered Sub Culture 12" or download early this year but if i had i guess i would have noticed it then. Just never picked up on it so clearly or at all before.It's a minor detail but it's always a surprise when you hear something in a remastered track that you hadn't before.

From what i've listened to so far on streaming, i like the remastered Substance. I know nothing about all that dynamic range technical stuff etc. so can only describe what i hear. Think i've read people mention 'fatiguing' either in the orginal or new reissue. I'd say the new release is anything but fatiguing. I could possibly listen to discs 1-3 in one sitting. It glides and isn't dull sounding like i often heard the orginal LP or CD. Parts that were once a bit brutal or irritating are now great to hear.A clarity and freshness in the tracks.

There seems to be a lot of complainings regarding the quality of the packaging for the 4xCD set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6HyMPxtpeI

I was really amused watching the video, thinking to myself what a bargain 4 CDs for £18... cheap and cheerful for me anytime

Mr. Disco wrote: There seems to be a lot of complainings regarding the quality of the packaging for the 4xCD set.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6HyMPxtpeI

I was really amused watching the video, thinking to myself what a bargain 4 CDs for £18... cheap and cheerful for me anytime

I actually changed my mind about keeping my 4 CD copy that turned up with creased spines, so a replacement will be arriving from them tomorrow, after which I have until early December to send the first one back for the refund.

I expect the second copy to also get squished in the card envelope or when it goes through the letterbox, but will keep my fingers crossed.

Did anyone order from UK stores other than Amazon and got them in good condition due to better packaging? Any recommendations as to a store I could use?

What was the packaging like from the New Order store?

Mr Discography wrote: Did anyone order from UK stores other than Amazon and got them in good condition due to better packaging? Any recommendations as to a store I could use?

What was the packaging like from the New Order store?

I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.

Fotz wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Fotz wrote: Wow, some additional stuff i'm hearing for the first time on the first few seconds of Dub Vulture. WTF? Never heard that before.

What do you mean?

Oh it's nothing major, just a kind of spinning whirring noise on rhe right side at the start. Most prominent the first 4-5 seconds before the synth comes in. It is there after that but not so clear and then at 19 seconds the drums kick in and the sound disappears.

I didn't buy the remastered Sub Culture 12" or download early this year but if i had i guess i would have noticed it then. Just never picked up on it so clearly or at all before.It's a minor detail but it's always a surprise when you hear something in a remastered track that you hadn't before.

I listened to my copy of the original 1985 12" and can actually hear it on that.So , er, ignore my previous.I guess i heard it before but hadn't played Dub Vulture for so long i'd forgotten about it.Doh.

Fotz wrote: From what i've listened to so far on streaming, i like the remastered Substance. I know nothing about all that dynamic range technical stuff etc. so can only describe what i hear. Think i've read people mention 'fatiguing' either in the orginal or new reissue. I'd say the new release is anything but fatiguing. I could possibly listen to discs 1-3 in one sitting. It glides and isn't dull sounding like i often heard the orginal LP or CD. Parts that were once a bit brutal or irritating are now great to hear.A clarity and freshness in the tracks.

I agree i think it sounds great on spotify...definately better than when i last streamed it not tall that long ago

Quite strange really as when i last listened to it(having not listened to it for 20+ years) oddly the week before the remaster was announced i didn't get all the way through it and commented to my daughter about how it sounded a little dull

Saturday night after a couple of cans i had a listen....ended up listening to every song and really enjoyed it...loved the live gig but i was about 12 cans in by then😄

My cd case was a little squased but nothing major....will go and sit with the others in a cupboard as i don't actually have anything to pay it on

50poundnote wrote: I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.

My experiences with the US instance of the New Order store have been nothing but disastrous. They ship the Definitive Edition box sets in simply the box issued by the distributor, which isn't intended for shipment on its own. All 12" sized vinyl has arrived with bent corners. And the times that I purposely ordered shirts with vinyl to hopefully add some padding to the vinyl, much to my dismay, they ended up shipping the vinyl and shirts separately. Then working with Warners/Rhino customer services is abysmal. They take forever to respond, won't allow replacements, just returns. Then when they re-ship something, it's in the EXACT SAME packaging as before.

And while I loathe Amazon, the Definitive Edition box sets that they have shipped me have all been double-packed (i.e., the distributor's box inside yet another box). So they have all arrived safely and were significantly cheaper.

The UK/Euro New Order Store is somewhat better, but everything ships from the island of Jersey and takes forever to make it to the States. Also, my mirrored sleeve edition of "The Perfect Kiss" arrived soaking wet. They ultimately replaced it, but not without a fight, plus having to wait another few months for the replacement to arrive.

So, unless it's an exclusive item, I have pretty much given up on the New Order Store.

-Mike

Got an email that my bundle has shipped, minus the poster, which is on backorder. Hopefully have it by the weekend!

steinomite wrote:

50poundnote wrote: I ordered directly from NO's webstore because I wanted the t-shirt and poster, too. My order has not yet shipped - they rarely get the packages to the customer on release date, but their packaging is good.

My experiences with the US instance of the New Order store have been nothing but disastrous. They ship the Definitive Edition box sets in simply the box issued by the distributor, which isn't intended for shipment on its own. All 12" sized vinyl has arrived with bent corners. And the times that I purposely ordered shirts with vinyl to hopefully add some padding to the vinyl, much to my dismay, they ended up shipping the vinyl and shirts separately. Then working with Warners/Rhino customer services is abysmal. They take forever to respond, won't allow replacements, just returns. Then when they re-ship something, it's in the EXACT SAME packaging as before.

And while I loathe Amazon, the Definitive Edition box sets that they have shipped me have all been double-packed (i.e., the distributor's box inside yet another box). So they have all arrived safely and were significantly cheaper.

The UK/Euro New Order Store is somewhat better, but everything ships from the island of Jersey and takes forever to make it to the States. Also, my mirrored sleeve edition of "The Perfect Kiss" arrived soaking wet. They ultimately replaced it, but not without a fight, plus having to wait another few months for the replacement to arrive.

So, unless it's an exclusive item, I have pretty much given up on the New Order Store.

-Mike

well, its unfortunate that you had those issues.

i've ordered several items, and never had any defects, problems or issues at all.

if they really are that bad, i hope i never have to go there.

but over several years, nothing happened to worry about.

50poundnote wrote: Got an email that my bundle has shipped, minus the poster, which is on backorder. Hopefully have it by the weekend!

yeah, i'm expecting my shipping notice shortly.

i can wait for the poster, no big deal. because i still have to figure out where to put it.

later ||| || | | | ne gative 1

got my clear red and blue lp yesterday.

haven't listened yet, but given the reports, should sound great. i've been listening to the digital tracks all weekend (and even right now), and the are decent too.

i've updated my record display now, so i can rotate a couple of records out on clear shelves, and put them both there.

here are pictures and a closeup of the sleeve.

will show the full package once it arrives.

later || | || | | | ne gative 1

I personally don't see the point of the reproduction poster. I still have a mint copy of the original poster with the FACT number printed on it.

-Mike