Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

just for fun,

made some megamixes of the tracks:

heres substance megamix part 1:

the perfect kiss -> blue monday works out really well of course..

later ||| | || ne gative 1

and now for some more interesting takes on this.

so i attempted to do another megamix, this time using instrumentals of the songs (some generated), this allowed for a different version.

the tracklisting is completely different

some of the transitions are really cool

tracklist - new order substance instrumental megamix 1 2023

thieves like us (similar to the instrumental but some changes) true faith (instrumental) bizarre love triangle (instrumental) (not the dub) state of the nation (instrumental) temptation 87 (instrumental) subculture (instrumental) shellshock (instrumental) not the dub confusion 87 (instrumental) everythings gone green (instrumental) blue monday (instrumental) the perfect kiss (instrumental) ceremony (instrumental)

later || || | | | ne gative 1

Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?

Mr Discography wrote: Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?

Yep.

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote: Another question for Johnny James on this reissue. I take it the correct version of 'In A Lonely Place' will feature this time round - i.e. the version reissued on the re-released 'Ceremony' 12 inches, rather than the erroneous alternate take that was originally on 'Substance'?

Yep.

Good to know! I know it's not being titled (or packaged) as such, but to me, my combination of coloured double vinyl and 4 x CD set really will be my "Definitive Edition" of 'Substance' - looking forward to this one!

Cheers!

Hi Johnny,

Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.

Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?

Thanks!

50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,

Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.

Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?

Thanks!

We probably should try and find a way to get that Shell Shock out. That version of the TLU instrumental did come out on the PCL Collector's Edition (possibly by accident).

Johnny James wrote:

50poundnote wrote: Hi Johnny,

Will the standard, full-length version of Shellshock appear anywhere? I mean the version from the Pretty In Pink soundtrack (licensed to A&M) - not the single edit, or the extended mixes.

Also, I know what Recycle referred to as Thieves Live Us Instrumental '86 - which was also used in Pretty In Pink - appeared on the U.S. pressing of Shellshock instead of Shell-Cock. Is that being included anywhere?

Thanks!

We probably should try and find a way to get that Shell Shock out. That version of the TLU instrumental did come out on the PCL Collector's Edition (possibly by accident).

There's three versions of the full length TLU Instrumental (four if you include the Instrumental Edit on the Shellshock 7"). The "official" released version (a composite of two other takes), what I understand is "Take 1" (featured on the collectors edition), and "Take 2" which is on the Shellshock US 12". I have all three, and the version on the Shellshock 12" hasn't come out digitally elsewhere. Although there's not a great deal difference between them.

Although the 12" of Shellshock accompanied the Low-Life Definitive Edition, as it was actually released between Low-Life and Brotherhood, maybe there's a justification for putting the original Pretty In Pink soundtrack version on the Brotherhood Definitive bonus disc?

Cheers!

So continuing the recent (fascinating) discussions about those U-Matic tapes being unreliable and only having 44.1kHz, 16-bit sound quality, I've been trying to get a picture of which tracks on the 'Substance' reissue needed workarounds to upgrade the sound quality, whilst preserving the original U-Matic edits. Forgive me for over-obsessing, but, hey, it's my favourite album and I'm excited about its reissue (plus I'm extremely interested in the time, effort and attention to detail going into these re-releases in order to get their sound quality upgraded). How's this for a summary Johnny:

Tracks with digitally recreated 'Substance Edits' (i.e. original 12" master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the U-Matic 'Substance' edits from 1987):

• Sub-culture [remaster of original 12" version, edited digitally to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
• Shellshock [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
• Hurt [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]

Tracks with digitally recreated 12" versions (i.e. original master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the original 12" single versions):

• Thieves Like Us Instrumental [remaster of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53, plus reproducing a looped section from 3:35 that repeats at 3:52 - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]

Tracks remastered from production masters of U-Matic tapes (i.e. original source not available, so production master used instead):

• The Beach [remaster of production master tape of original 12" version - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue. Original 12" master consisted of 2 x alternate takes, one section of which was composited into the other using a U-Matic. One of the takes appears on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, but unable to source the other missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit. Also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from the U-Matic based edited version).]

Tracks different to the original Substance:

• In A Lonely Place [original 12" version used instead of the alternate take that was incorrectly used on the original 1987 'Substance' - same version that appears on the the 2019 'Ceremony' 12"/Digital single reissue']
• Murder [remaster of original master tape version (that can be heard on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, with 5 extra beats at the beginning), including the first 5 beats missing from the original 12" and 1987 'Substance' releases, as well as the 2020 12"/digital single reissue - meaning the version of 'Murder' on the new 'Substance' is different to the original 'Substance' version]

Are all the other tracks on the 'Substance' reissue (and, therefore all other tracks on the remastered 12" inches released so far) all sourced from original master tapes and unedited?

Thanks for all the background info on this and other reissues - I find it really intruiging!

Mr Discography wrote: So continuing the recent (fascinating) discussions about those U-Matic tapes being unreliable and only having 44.1kHz, 16-bit sound quality, I've been trying to get a picture of which tracks on the 'Substance' reissue needed workarounds to upgrade the sound quality, whilst preserving the original U-Matic edits. Forgive me for over-obsessing, but, hey, it's my favourite album and I'm excited about its reissue (plus I'm extremely interested in the time, effort and attention to detail going into these re-releases in order to get their sound quality upgraded) How's this for a summary Johnny:

Tracks with digitally recreated 'Substance Edits' (i.e. original 12" master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the U-Matic 'Substance' edits from 1987):

• Sub-culture [remaster of original 12" version, edited digitally to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
• Shellshock [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]
• Hurt [remaster of original 12" version, edited to reproduce the 'Substance' edit]

Tracks with digitally recreated 12" versions (i.e. original master tapes scanned, then digitally edited to recreate the original 12" single versions):

• The Beach [remaster of 2 x alternate takes, one section of which then digitally composited into the other to reproduce the original 12" version - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
• Murder [remaster of original master tape version (that can be heard on 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition, with 5 extra beats at the beginning), edited digitally to remove the first 5 beats - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]
• Thieves Like Us Instrumental [remaster of 2 x alternate takes ("Take 1" from 'Power, Corruption & Lies' Collector's Edition; "Take 2" from US 'Shellshock' 12"), digitally editing Take 1 into Take 2 at around 1:49-1:53 - same version that appears on the 2020 12"/digital single reissue]

Johnny, am I correct listing 'The Beach' above - I recall you said something about not being able to get hold of the original master tapes and/or U-Matics, so had to remaster it from a production master tape instead?

Are all the other tracks on the 'Substance' reissue (and, therefore all other tracks on the remastered 12" inches released so far) all sourced from original master tapes and unedited?

Thanks for all the background info on this and other reissues - I find it really intruiging!

For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).

Johnny James wrote: For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).

Thanks again for the explanation Johnny - I've updated my previous post with your info. Sounds like you guys were very lucky to have enough source material in the archives to create these releases with improved sound quality!

Does this therefore mean that even back in 1983, the versions of 'The Beach' and other U-Matic edits ('Thieves Like Us Instrumental', 'Murder', '586'), plus the the 1987 'Substance' edits of 'Sub-culture' and 'Shellshock' that we were listening to on "superior" vinyl, were actually only ever sourced from U-Matic masters limited to 44.1kHz 16-bit CD quality?

Reading your previous post on the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' thread, it's sounds like the whole vinyl pressing of the album was created from a U-Matic CD quality master - possibly the same with the original 'Substance'? Crazy to think that people championing the vinyl pressings of these albums back in the eighties had no idea they were limited to CD sampling rates!

What years were New Order using U-Matics for - sounds like '83 to '87?

Was there anything on 'Low-life' edited on U-Matic that you had to digitally recreate, or were these all tape edits?

Is everything else not on my 'Substance' list above remastered from original master tape sources without other workarounds / digital edits?

Cheers!

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: [For The Beach we couldn't find the missing part on the analogue reels for a new edit, also the U-matic that had it on failed, so in the end had to use an analogue production master (probably sourced at the time from a U-Matic based edited version).

Thanks again for the explanation Johnny - I've updated my previous post with your info. Sounds like you guys were very lucky to have enough source material in the archives to create these releases with improved sound quality!

Does this therefore mean that even back in 1983, the versions of 'The Beach' and other U-Matic edits ('Thieves Like Us Instrumental', 'Murder', '586'), plus the the 1987 'Substance' edits of 'Sub-culture' and 'Shellshock' that we were listening to on "superior" vinyl, were actually only ever sourced from U-Matic masters limited to 44.1kHz 16-bit CD quality?

Reading your previous post on the 'Power, Corruption & Lies' thread, it's sounds like the whole vinyl pressing of the album was created from a U-Matic CD quality master - possibly the same with the original 'Substance'? Crazy to think that people championing the vinyl pressings of these albums back in the eighties had no idea they were limited to CD sampling rates!

What years were New Order using U-Matics for - sounds like '83 to '87?

Was there anything on 'Low-life' edited on U-Matic that you had to digitally recreate, or were these all tape edits?

Is everything else not on my 'Substance' list above remastered from original master tape sources without other workarounds / digital edits?

Cheers!

I'm fairly sure that once the brand new technology of the U-Matics came along they were used in the process every time, you could edit on them instead of splicing tapes (well, with two of them). They're very much present in the archives until DATs and CD-Rs came along (also not any better in quality). Pro-tools becomes a thing early 2000s as well (slight improvement in quality but very hard to re-open any sessions).

They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.

Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember).

I think everything else on Substance was analogue studio master sourced, though a couple (BLT / Shell Shock) might have been from production master reels.

Johnny James wrote:

They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.

Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember)

Interesting that the old analogue masters would have been through a digital stage - so those early Factory vinyl albums would've had no more than CD quality.

Regarding 'Low-life': 'The Perfect Kiss', 'Elegia', 'Sooner Than You Think' and possibly 'Sunrise' all have longer versions, or versions with longer sections, so I wonder if at least those four songs went through U-Matic edits before making it onto your master reels?

Thanks again, amazing background info!

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote:

They did always seems to produce analogue production masters to cut vinyl, though very likely to have been through a digital stage.

Low Life was from an analogue pair of reels. No new edits though there might have been one or two minor fixes (can't remember)

Interesting that the old analogue masters would have been through a digital stage - so those early Factory vinyl albums would've had no more than CD quality.

Regarding 'Low-life', 'The Perfect Kiss', 'Elegia', 'Sooner Than You Think' and possibly 'Sunrise' all have longer versions, or versions with longer sections, so I wonder if at least those four songs went through U-Matic edits before making it onto your master reels?

Thanks again, amazing background info!

I think those particular album edits might have been done on analogue reels in the studio whilst recording and mixing the album. You'd have to ask Michael Johnson or the band.

Red and Blue vinyl version arrived from Rough Trade today. Didn't think it was released until next week.

It's a thing of beauty. Obvs.

Not sure when I'll get the CD and 3 x 12"s. Ordered them from Amazon.co.uk.

perspexorange wrote: Red and Blue vinyl version arrived from Rough Trade today. Didn't think it was released until next week.

It's a thing of beauty. Obvs.

Not sure when I'll get the CD and 3 x 12"s. Ordered them from Amazon.co.uk.

Very jealous. I ordered mine from Picadilly Records, so guess I have to wait until at least the official release date on Friday (assuming they ship in time to arrive then). Today was my birthday, so would've been a perfect day to receive a vinyl remaster of my all time favourite album.

12"s have now risen from £17.99 to £19.99 on Amazon

My red and blue came this morning

Outer sleeve has embossed lettering but isn’t like my original glossy cover. It’s still lovely though.

The vinyl looks gorgeous and sounds it too. They’ve done a really good job on the mastering. Hearing loads of little details I’d not heard before. Sounds really fresh.

Johnny, will any digital download stores be selling hi-rez versions of the 'Substance' reissue? I know the recent 12" releases were 24-bit on Qobuz, but it's only listing 'Substance' as 16-bit CD quality.

My coloured vinyl turned up from Picadilly Records, but there are two white visible scuffs on 'Shellshock' - one right at the end that's very audible, so it will have to go back for a replacement. Typical, as that's my favourite New Order track (and favourite version of it).

Plus my brand new pair of Sennheiser HD 450BT headphones are faulty too - sounds like an old-school modem dialling up when I turn it on. So two things to send back!

Didn't listen to the whole of the album - just checked if the scuffs were audible, and dipped in a little bit elsewhere. Tiny observation that the gap between 'The Perfect Kiss' and 'Subculture' is 2-3 seconds longer than the original CD (never had the original vinyl, so that may have been longer). I always liked the way 'Subculture' kicked straight in as the funny goblin noise started to fade out (not sure if it was originally a crossfade - more than likely a tight U-Matic edit). Think I'm already learning to enjoy having the full track right to its very silent end - and fabulous that it'll finally be the full 12" version for the first time ever on the CD format of 'Substance'!

Also listened to the "re-edited" 'Substance' edits of 'Subculture' and 'Shellshock', which are both spot on and impossible to tell they're recreated - well done indeed!

Hoping I get to listen to a non-scuffed version of the vinyl in the next few days, and enjoy the 4 x CD set when it turns up from Amazon on Friday.

Well done again for bringing this out - I love that this album has finally been remastered and re-released, and 10/10 for the 4 x CD tracklisting!

Big surprise, the digital 3x12" are already available on Qobuz (highRes).

I remember, we had wait some weeks/months for the last bunch (PK, Subcult, Shell).

I ordered the standard 2xCD from Amazon US to tide me over until my bundle arrives, and all week long it's been showing as arriving today, but not yet shipped. Well, about an hour ago, Amazon cancelled the order and sent me a notice that they didn't have it in stock. Bummer. I may check out my local indie today and see if they got any.

I've been listening through samples online, though, and I love hearing the live show in such great quality after having an audience bootleg for 20 years.

Looks like the 2-disc has disappeared from the UK Amazon store as well.

My red & blue vinyl copy just in the Chicago suburbs from Turntable Lab. While I didn't get it as early as some of you folks in the UK, I am pleasantly surprised to have received it in the US on release day. Not to mention the fact that, with sales taxes and shipping, it only cost me $40.27

Anyways, it's not quite as cool as my Gatefold Substance, but have to say that Warners (and Mr. Zeiter) did a nice job on it. A big thumbs up from this fan!

-Mike

My 4xCD is on its way from iMusic DK.

Meanwhile:

https://darko.audio/2023/11/new-orders-substance-in-2023-more-songs-weaker-sound/

Mr. Disco wrote: My 4xCD is on its way from iMusic DK.

Meanwhile:

https://darko.audio/2023/11/new-orders-substance-in-2023-more-songs-weaker-sound/

His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.

Also, I'm getting so tired of these articles obsessing over the dynamic range of releases. Sure, those 90s Oasis albums were brickwalled, but more recent remasters are nowhere near as severe. If "audiophiles" didn't anally run each and every CD and vinyl grab through audio software, they'd never even notice the difference.

My right ear has distorted whenever audio has loud peaks ever since Pet Shop Boys opened their first tour with One More Chance at Wembley Arena, so a tighter dynamic range is better for me, as less peaks mean less chance of my ear crackling. Plus is easier to listen to out and about on portable music players without the everyday background noise seeping in. I've never found a slightly tighter dynamic range tiring to listen to.

Honestly, all this bitching about a 4dB RMS difference is nuts. I got the 4 x CD and listened to disc 1 today - thought it sounded superb. A lovely remastering. Very satisfied with it. It's beautiful, and better than the tinny original. Will truly be my "definitive" edition.

perspexorange wrote: Hmm, looks like there's a bit of variant in track order between UK cassette copies:

Big white box (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 1) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/145355-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 2) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/8840947-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 3) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/9205879-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 4) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/release/2081693-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 5 - embossed) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/release/6932105-New-Order-Substance

Only the big white box has incorrect printing on it, which states Murder is on tape 2, but is actually on tape 1. All others are printed as per the actual running order (I think!).

Was there ever a Substance 2 x cassette release with True Dub at the end? I seem to remember someone here posting a pic of it, and see mention of it on Wikipedia and the NO Wiki, but can't find it on Discogs or elsewhere. A limited edition apparently? Would be a ridiculously long tape! Closest I can find is the Canadian 'Substance Sides' release https://www.discogs.com/release/2621988-New-Order-Substance-Sides

I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:

Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)

What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?

GotBlueEyes wrote: I notice in the CD booklet it says that 2 of the live tracks have been patched:

Subculture patched with audio from Park West, Park City, Utah (September 9th, 1987) Shellshock patched with audio from Red Rocks Amphitheatre, Morrison, Colorado (September 8th, 1987)

What's the story there? Just a damaged master DAT?

Whoever was at the mixing desk had to flip the tape. DATs were released to market in 1987, but I'm sure the band was using standard cassette tapes at the time.

Mr Discography wrote:

His article is wrong / misremembered. The Substance tapes never featured the full length Perfect Kiss, Subculture and Shellshock.

Wrong. Every cassette version features the full-length version of The Perfect Kiss (as does the vinyl). That was only edited for the CD.