Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

I guess you could take the view that, say the vinyl version, Substance was "a collection of all New Order's 12" singles up to that point" why wasn't Murder on there?! It was a New Order single and it was a 12" !

Fotz wrote: I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.

Up North Woolworth got lots of them but due to the size of the boxes and their Racking most were damaged. I was already into Cds by then so never got the tapes. Wish I had but I am very fussy!

GotBlueEyes wrote: Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards

I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard

I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)

Crikey! I can well imagine.

The only good aspect of Murder was the sleeve😎

I remember buying the Murder 12" on release and coming home with it. The only record player in our house at that time was in the living room and frustratingly my brother had his new girlfriend round and they were in the living room. I had to politely disturb their afternoon and ask if they'd mind if i played my new vinyl purchase. At the end, my brother's girlfriend had a look on her face of what on earth was that shit??!! Though to her credit she didn't actually say that. Very diplomatic. But it was obvious from her face what she thought of it haha!

ROCKET MICK wrote: The only good aspect of Murder was the sleeve😎

Murder is awesome and I won't have anything bad said about it!

Interesting what Johnny says about Murder possibly never appearing on Side 2. I was convinced that at least one of my copies had it on tape 2, hence me being surprised by reading today of it being on tape 1 on other copies. I have a distinct memory of, when I first got into the band, reading an article or book which listed Murder as a single and thinking to myself, 'wonder why it's on the b-sides tape of Substance'.

However, I admit that my memory is quite often flawed.

Hmmm - my tapes are at my mum's and I *think* she has a tape player. Now I need to mull over whether or not it's worth, in the interests of research, to risk my tape getting mangled.

If it does mangle, I'm going to blame JJ and insist that he grants me one week's access to the JD/NO archives as compensation.

While we're about it, I never quite understood why the mighty Procession was "demoted" to the B-sides disc on Substance; wasn't Fac 53 a double-A-sided single?(Obviously EGG is magnificent.)

EDIT - just realised, there's not a 12" version of Procession, that's it, duh.

I haven't bought anything since Be a Rebel but time to buy again. Maybe 4 x Cd to begin with..no T Shirt will fit!

Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?

How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?

Interested to see if the audio glitch present in (as far as I remember) every release and remaster of the 'True Faith' 12" version is finally removed in this version of 'Substance' - in the first chorus when Barney sings "I'd see the light", the glitch always makes it sound like he's singing "I'd stee the light". The glitch was never present on the 7" edit.

Johnny James wrote:

steinomite wrote: Being of the camp that did not think that a "Definitive Edition" box set was warranted for a "Substance" reissue, I am glad that the band decided to reissue it as a standalone release. With this being a popular title for more casual fans of New Order, I imagine this will sell rather well.

Johnny James - Why wasn't a "Touched by the Hand of God" single released in conjunction with the "True Faith" and "Blue Monday 88" singles? With it having been released in 1987 and having "Substance" related B-sides on the CD single, I thought it would make more sense to reissue it with "Substance" versus "Brotherhood" or "Technique."

-Mike

They wanted to do BM because it's the 40th anniversary.

Doing 3 now and 3 with Brotherhood also works ok, perhaps the sequencing is a bit out, but in the end that doesn't make much difference.

There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense.

The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set!

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?

How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?

Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other).

Mr Discography wrote: Murder was on the original A sides cassette.

No risk of tape-stretch on my trusty iPod! I do wish this was getting a more extensive vinyl release though

Johnny James wrote:

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

Given the 'Substance' masters were on U-Matic, I take it this new version of 'Substance' recompiles the remastered single versions released over the last few years, rather than remastering the original sequence of tracks from 1987?

How have the "Substance edits" of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' been remastered this time round? Were there original non-U-Matic master tapes of these edits to go back to, or have these edits been re-created digitally using the remasters already released of the full length 12" mixes?

Yes, recompiled from scratch using the transfers that were done for the singles, then re-edited where we wanted to keep the original edits (ie. not The Perfect Kiss this time). We actually started doing this around 2016, so it pre-dates some of the singles, though some mastering was done recently (you have to do some mastering work on a compiled album so the tracks all sound good alongside each other).

Gotta say how much I appreciate all this insider information about the recent remastered reissues Johnny - it's always massively fascinating. You should write a book about it all!

So, I think what you're saying is, with 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt', you've taken the already remastered full-length 12" mixes, then edited them down digitally to recreate the edits that were originally on 'Substance' in 1987?

If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference!

Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in existence?

Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years!

Mr Discography wrote:

If so, the purist in me is a little bit nervous the edits won't be exactly the same as in 1987 (the same reason the "Recycle" project never interested me, as it didn't feel authentic). However, I'm sure I won't notice any difference!

Out of interest, how were the original Substance edits put together and mastered? I've wondered if they were edits made at the time the original tracks were recorded, but assume they were edited specifically for the 'Substance' release in 1987? Were they digitally edited in 1987 (U-Matic?) Or are there higher quality master tapes of those edits in exist?

Ultimately, I'm just super happy we're getting a shiny new very of 'Substance' after all these years!

It's always possible someone will spot something slightly different. The alternative is to use a U-Matic source for the edits, I haven't seen anything of higher quality for them as they probably were edited in that format (easier at the time than splicing tapes).

The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.

Mr Discography wrote:

There's a sort-of logic to this, assuming the 'Salvation' soundtrack recordings were made between 'Brotherhood' and 'Substance'. I'm guessing the 'Salvation' tracks will be on the 'Brotherhood' definitive edition bonus CD - if this includes the original 'Touched By The Hand Of God ' from the soundtrack, then an accompanying 'Touched'12" kind of makes sense.

The pedant/chronologist in me does find it awkward that they're now coming out in a disjointed order, but nevertheless I'm very pleased to have something coming out so soon after the 'Low-life' set!

I was thinking this very thing just yesterday, i.e. 'Brotherhood' Definitive Edition possibly including the 'Salvation' tracks etc. Would make total sense to release 'Touched' 12" at the same time, if this was the case.

According to the timeline in Dennis Remmer's book, the 'Salvation' sessions happened around August-September 1987, i.e. about the same time that 'Substance' was released.

Fotz wrote: I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.

I don't think it was that long after. I bought the cassette on release from Woolworths, as I wanted all the b-sides too

It was the slipcase red/blue cassette version, it lasted about a couple of weeks before the tape snapped.

I took it back to Woolies to complain and get a replacement, but they didn't have any of the slipcase versions left - so they gave me a linen box version instead. This twist of fate set me off on a collecting spree for the other FAC linen boxes and pleased to say that I have then all now

I'm beginning to wonder now, did i actually ever have the red/blue slipcase x2 cassette version.Maybe i didn't and i was getting mixed up with the CD which did have Murder in with the tracklist with the B sides disc.I do still have the hessian white box cassette version but had no memory of Murder being on the A sides cassette between Thieves and TPK.Memory eh? It can be a bugger!

Mr Discography wrote: Really lovng the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.

Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe?

The above would have been an excellent idea. Did like a 12” of Nothing for me \ let’s go as well

Johnny James wrote: The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.

Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated.

So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues?

Mr Discography wrote:

Johnny James wrote: The edits at that stage were relatively simple, it gets much trickier for Get Ready/Sirens era as edits might be Pro-Tools based and exist at stem level. They are much harder to track and recreate.

Interesting - and sounds messy/complicated.

So does that mean there are no album master tapes for Get Ready/Sirens era that are higher than 44.1kHz/16-bit? Meaning you'd have to go back to the source multitracks and edit/bounce them all down again in higher audio quality for any reissues?

Both albums were done to tape originally, then were copied over to pro-tools and more work was done. This makes it difficult to go back to the studio tapes.

Johnny James wrote: I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.

I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?

I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs.

Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there.

'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition.

Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected.

Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;)

depthcharge wrote:

Johnny James wrote: I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.

I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?

I have a bunch of these variants and can confirm that 'Murder' does not appear on tape #2 (side three) - as listed on both the artwork and Discogs.

Just pulled out a copy and listened again to be sure. Side three jumps from 'Lonesome Tonight' to 'Thieves Like Us Instrumental' and ends there.

'Murder' shows up after 'Thieves Like Us' on tape #1 as per later (corrected) cassette variants and linen box edition.

Basically if you have an earlier tape version with the red+blue spines on external slipcase, the 'Murder' tracklisting is wrong. If you have a black spine version, it's been corrected.

Maybe I'll now be inspired to update Discogs, in all the excitement ;)

That was my suspicion, Discogs does seem to have some listings that contradict that from all the variants on there. The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days.

Johnny James wrote: They don't like C120 lengths these days.

Neither did my Saisho cassette player in 1987!

Johnny James wrote: The need to get the timings to work is important, that's why I shifted TLU to side 4, it got the running times per side down a little. Apparently we're using C101 and C102 length tapes, just a little over their preferred maximum. They don't like C120 lengths these days.

It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand?

I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version. I haven't ordered yet, but if I'm gonna spend money on this (and only order one format), then the 4CD is probably the most attractive option.

Mr Discography wrote: Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.

What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987').

So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive

CD3 will finally cure my FOMO of not having all those tracks like Shellcock and Dub Vulture on my previous Substance purchases. This does feel like a not-strictly-necessary exercise in nostalgia. But it's difficult to resist...

Debaser wrote:

It's a nice touch, doing a cassette version. I wonder how much of this is sentimentality and how much is about demand?

I never owned the cassette. I went from the '87 vinyl to the ('99?) London CD version.

It's a good question, and looking at the discogs editions it looks like there were a disproportionate number of cassette editions released, because (I assume) the demand was there to have a whole other album of b-sides They were still pressing new cassette editions post the London Records signing (1993?)

I know that myself and a number of my friends all went for the cassette at the time because of the extra tracks, but given that the CD has the most content this time, I'm going to guess that they don't expect to sell that many of the new cassettes and it's just a limited edition "nice-to-have-but-never-play" thing for collectors

Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…

EmileStrunz wrote: Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…

Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there.

Johnny James wrote:

EmileStrunz wrote: Is Perfect Pit on the 4CD set? According to Amazon it is. Weird track to mistakenly add in there if it isn’t…

Definitely there, it seemed to have been missed off one tracklist that went out, but it's there.

It's missing from the New Order Store listing too: https://store.neworder.com/gb/new-order/substance-87-4cd-expanded-edition/5054197717901.html

For those based in the US, Turntable Lab has a fantastic deal ($32.95) for the red/blue colored vinyl edition of "Substance" here.

That's $22 cheaper than Rough Trade's price. As far as I know, RT NYC and TTL are the only retailers in the US stocking the colored vinyl edition.

-Mike