Definitive Edition or deluxe reissue? Substance

perspexorange wrote: Ordered the red/blue vinyl yesterday from Rough Trade. £59.83 inc. faster/tracked delivery. And just ordered 4CD, plus 3 x 12"s from Amazon.co.uk. £73.96 with Prime, plus 'lowest price' guarantee.

Was tempted by the t-shirt, but decided against it for he time being.

A lot of money spent, but the LP is worth it. Best compilation ever? Probably.

I will probably just do the 4CD set ($49.99 US), as I've no use for cassettes or vinyl. I would be swayed to spring for the Ultimate Bundle ($149.99 US) if it was presented in a nice box/package, but there's no indication that's the case. If it's just all the items shipped in a cardboard box, I'll keep my cash.

perspexorange wrote: Ordered the red/blue vinyl yesterday from Rough Trade. £59.83 inc. faster/tracked delivery. And just ordered 4CD, plus 3 x 12"s from Amazon.co.uk. £73.96 with Prime, plus 'lowest price' guarantee.

Was tempted by the t-shirt, but decided against it for he time being.

A lot of money spent, but the LP is worth it. Best compilation ever? Probably.

It’s definitely the best comp ever in my eyes. [:eek] however going to give this one a miss. I’m lucky enough to own the substance promo (not for sale unless desperate) and the original mass release vinyl as well as the CD. The 3 x12” on offer my originals are all decent condition. However my true faith remix has only a paper inner sleeve. I can’t remember if it ever had a proper inner sleeve, can anyone else remember? Hardly ever played BM 88 so that’s pristine. Hammered the original TF but still in decent condition.

I’m a vinyl man so not too bothered about cd’s although I will download the Irvine meadows gig.

It’s a great package though just not in need of it. All the other recent rereleases are in boxes which are nicely displayed so I may have also been tempted if box set.

Looking forward to brotherhood box set as my vinyl for that album is in poor shape so could do with a nice remaster. Same with BLT 12 which has lots of pops and crackles.

Although the red and blue vinyl does look good, may be tempted yet!

The Shadow I have several Remixes..some have A proper inner printed sleeve whilst a USA or Aussie one has a plastic inner sleeve. In the days when I had no other New Order collecting friends and very little info on such records it was quite fun finding these in shops around Lancashire.

I too own Number 50 Substance promo that I got from The Record Collector..Mark Eastwood in Minty mint condition for approx £30 around 1990. Lovely..I should play it sometime.😎

The Shadow wrote: Although the red and blue vinyl does look good, may be tempted yet!

Ha! The curse of the vinyl / NO collector...also trying to hold out buying something I ultimately don't need. But deep down you know it won't last ;)

Grabbed both vinyls, both CDs, the three 12"s and cassettes. No tee or poster for now.

All coming from a variety of sources as the shipping down here is almost as horrendous as local retail mark-up.

The Shadow wrote:

The 3 x12” on offer my originals are all decent condition. However my true faith remix has only a paper inner sleeve. I can’t remember if it ever had a proper inner sleeve, can anyone else remember? Hardly ever played BM 88 so that’s pristine. Hammered the original TF but still in decent condition.

I have the original double vinyl Substance and the only 12" I don't have is Blue Monday 88, so that's the only one I'll pick up here (will probably get the CD too for the live gig and remasters)

But a question on the pricing of the 12"s here

Looking back at my Amazon orders and the new ones that I picked up for the Movement and PCL sets were all £10

The ones that came out with Low-Life were £14

This time they are all £18 on Amazon

Has the cost of vinyl really nearly doubled in 4 years??

Yeah think I picked up most of the early 12" up for less than £10, I suppose the cost of producing a 12" can't be far off the same as a LP, do any bands bring out 12" nowadays - minimum is an EP probably?

Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio

I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...

I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.

Not much to add . Not sure i'll buy. Will probably just listen on streaming. I did buy the vinyl back in August 1987 though i was always more enthusiastic about new material. I'd been buying up all the 12"'s in the previous few years before so i was too familiar i think with the songs.

I guess it would have been amazing to hear all the 12"'s for the first time back in 1987 with a copy of Substance but hey. The vinyl i bought back in 87 was the gatefold. I just walked into Our Price and purchased. I sold a load of records in the late 80s including Substance gatefold. Duh, what an idiot, it's worth a few hundred now, right? The vinyl i jave now is just a slip 12" sleeve the 2 discs insert into. Listening a while back i wasn't blown away by the audio quailty. Maybe it's not even a genuine? So that's a reason i suppose to buy the reissue.

Funny to think now, Substance was announced in the music press only 2 or 3 weeks before release back then. It's 2 months at least these days.

Andy wrote: Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio

I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...

I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.

I've just read that link and i'm glad i'm not an audiophile if they go into things that deeply!

What i do know is the 2023 remaster of confusion dub on spotify sounds ok to me through my decent(ish) headphones

I'll be buying the cd and maybe the vinyl....just to look at and stick with my others as i don't have a cd player or record player anymore!

lee wrote:

Andy wrote: Interesting article on remasters and New Order's specifically: Darko.Audio

I've been satisfied with the recent remasters, perhaps I'm not an audiophile...

I can say the Japanese CD release from 1993 does sound better than the original Qwest and Factory pressings I've owned. As long as the new remaster sounds at least as good, I'll be happy.

I've just read that link and i'm glad i'm not an audiophile if they go into things that deeply!

What i do know is the 2023 remaster of confusion dub on spotify sounds ok to me through my decent(ish) headphones

I'll be buying the cd and maybe the vinyl....just to look at and stick with my others as i don't have a cd player or record player anymore!

i like collecting, so most of my stuff will all stay sealed just to go along with it.

i already have the tracks digitally already for most of them.

later | || || | | ne gative 1

ROCKET MICK wrote: I too own Number 50 Substance promo that I got from The Record Collector..Mark Eastwood in Minty mint condition for approx £30 around 1990. Lovely..I should play it sometime.😎

I was luckily enough to pay not much many years ago, now goes for over £600 on discogs. I’ve got number 292

What's next apart from the Albums? Any possibilty of the FACTUS 81-82 EP expanded? All the available tracks from that period in a nice double CD package, no books or funny coloured vinyl just songs that people want to listen to. Mesh, C&W, IALP, EGG etc. £19.99. I'd buy it!

I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!

Like No Other wrote: I'm defo going the full monty on this release. News of this release couldn't have been timed better for me, weeks holiday in the Greek sun listening to NO, love reading everyone's comments in this forum!

Holiday in the sun..Substance abuse. Ffs sounds Fantastic😎

tapebias wrote: What's next apart from the Albums? Any possibilty of the FACTUS 81-82 EP expanded? All the available tracks from that period in a nice double CD package, no books or funny coloured vinyl just songs that people want to listen to. Mesh, C&W, IALP, EGG etc. £19.99. I'd buy it!

already got released as a regular (not expanded) clear vinyl 12 inch for record store day. https://www.discogs.com/release/6355194-New-Order-1981-1982

but yeah, no CD re-issue, because all those tracks have been included several times over all the deluxe ones.

maybe a digital release, which of course you can now get because of substance.

later | || | | || | | ne gative 1

Really loving the carefully thought out tracklist for this 4CD reissue.

What's great about the CD3 tracklist, is it feels like an authentic bonus disc that could've easily been included with a special edition way back in 1987, as every track on there is taken from one of the original 12 inch singles, or the recording sessions at the time 'Substance' came out ('Confusion Dub 1987').

So we get a remastered version of the original LP tracklist on CD1 (with full 'Perfect Kiss' and other Substance edits preserved - exactly what I desired); an exact recreation of the original CD2, then almost all other core tracks from those original 12/13 single releases included on CD3. Good stuff and can't wait for my 4 CD and coloured vinyl editions to arrive on 10 November, three days after my 49th birthday. Shocking to think I was 13 back when I first bought the double cassette in 1988!

The only core (i.e. non-promo) stuff missing that was released on the main 12" singles up to this time is 'Confused Beats', 'Confusion Rough Mix', and of course the non-Substance edits of 'Subculture', 'Shellshock' and 'Hurt' - all of which have already come out digitally in remastered form, and wouldn't have fit on these CDs anyway. I prefer the Substance edits anyway, as they benefit from being trimmed a bit - so I can happily live without them on this compilation.

Then of course there's 'Paradise (Remix)', but this wasn't on any UK 12 inches (was Australia only if I recall) and did come out on the 'Retro' set. I'm actually surprised this isn't included on the reissued 'True Faith (Remix)' 12" and digital release, as this would've avoided repeating '1963' across that and the main 'True Faith' 12", and given us something extra that isn't on the 'Substance' reissue. A minor nitpick however. All in all, the three CDs feel like a full and comprehensive collection of those classic 12 inches.

Another nice idea I had would've been to accompany this 'Substance' reissue with a new 12" that had 'Temptation 87' on the A-side and 'Confusion 87' + 'Confusion Dub 1987' on the B-side. I think they were originally considering releasing 'Temptation 87' as the single to promote 'Substance' until 'True Faith' was recorded, so it would've been a playful treat to give all three 1987 re-recordings their own 12" release. One for a future Record Store Day maybe?

All in all, very pleased with the 4CD tracklist - so well done to all involved for listening to our thoughts in this forum and (hopefully) pleasing most of us!

I echo your sentiments, Mr Discography. The track list is pretty much what I would want.

Here's something that hasn't been discussed before (I don't think; forgive me if I'm wrong), but it looks like they've fixed the Mesh/Cries & Whispers naming error on the original release. Looking at the listing on the Store, it says for CD2:

"3) Cries And Whispers (incorrectly labelled as Mesh on original release)"

I'm glad about this. I suppose it's obvious that they would've fixed this but, so often with these sort of things, errors just get replicated. Good job we've got JJ on the case. If Factory was still about, I have no doubts they'd have messed it up again.

Good old Factory. A brilliant, pioneering record company, but accuracy was never their strength.

On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.

Fotz wrote: On New Order store, looking at the tracklist for the cassette version, cassette 1 has 13 tracks. Couldn't work out at first why it was 13. Then noticed Murder is slipped in between Thieves Like Us and Perfect Kiss. Interesting! Imagine having the vinyl version and Murder added. It'd make sense in a way i guess as Murder was a 12" single release of course on Benelux but i never think of Substance including it as part of the collection of all their 12" singles, only as being on CD2 or the b side of the orginal cassette.

Murder was on the original A sides cassette.

^ Ah, I stand corrected. Had no memory of it being on the old a sides cassette. Even though i owned a copy! Think i only ever played the b sides cassette back then.

Was on Discogs earlier today and was surprised to learn that, as Mr. Discography says, on the original (big white box) version of the cassette "Murder is listed as being on cassette two but it plays after "Thieves Like Us" at the end of Side A on cassette one."

The first tape I had of it (the smaller slipcase variant), it was on tape 2.

I wonder whether, originally, they intended to have it on tape 1, as it is technically an A-side. Then they decided to relegate it to the B-side (maybe to keep the LP and tape versions in sync with track order). However, they forgot to tell the company producing the tape but did tell the sleeve printers. Then they rectified the tape run order for later releases.

Odd. Incidentally the 'Twelve Inches of New Order' promo ruler doesn't really work with 13 tracks. :-D 12 x 12" has a certain symmetry.

I have three variants of the tape kicking around somewhere. The first one was given to me by a mate and was a slipcase version. One of the tapes (tape 2, I expect, given the length) chewed up on me.

I then purchased a second slipcase tape, but this was a bit different if I recall correctly. I seem to think it didn't have the colour-coding on the cassette boxes and might've had black plastic tapes as opposed to clear (or vice versa). I barely played this version, as I decided to upgrade to the CD not long after (in case similar chewing occurred). It's in pretty much mint condition because of this.

Finally, I grabbed the original big white box a couple of years later, but admit I've never played it. Hence why I didn't know about Murder being on tape A.

Hmm, looks like there's a bit of variant in track order between UK cassette copies:

Big white box (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/1061330-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 1) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/145355-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 2) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/8840947-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 3) (Murder on tape 1):

https://www.discogs.com/release/9205879-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 4) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/release/2081693-New-Order-Substance

Slipcase (variant 5 - embossed) (Murder on tape 2):

https://www.discogs.com/release/6932105-New-Order-Substance

Only the big white box has incorrect printing on it, which states Murder is on tape 2, but is actually on tape 1. All others are printed as per the actual running order (I think!).

^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!

I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.

I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.

Fotz wrote: ^ Ah, i guess i was thinking of variant 4 and/or 5 in that list with links you've very helpfully done there, p. Thanks!

I recall my tape having Murder in with the B sides cassette. Even though it was an A side of course! That must be what i was thinking of and it struck me as unusual to have it in with the A sides and basically making the album 12 x 13 instead of 12 x 12.

I no longer have the original cassette but i do still have white hessian box version.Haven't looked it for years let alone play it so i would've long forgotten Murder being in with the A sides of the 2 cassettes.

Just thinking, I'm not sure of the 'release date' order of those six variants.

I imagine that the 'Murder on tape 2' versions are later variants, based on the fact that the white linen box was (presumably) an original release and has Murder on tape 1.

If that's the case, and they switched to tape 2 for later variants, one does have to question the logic of that, i.e. extending an already long cassette. It probably contributed to all the 'tape chewing' that you hear about with this release among fans.

Maybe Factory thought, 'oh well, it's only the b-sides... nobody will care if they get destroyed. Let's not jeopardise tape 1...'.

I seem to recall the white hesian box version not appearing til quite some time after. Maybe the following year or even later... really not sure. Or maybe i just never saw it in the record shop around the time Substance was first released. I just remember the slip case version at first. But i couldn't say for sure, it's a very long time ago.

I'm not sure Murder was ever on tape 2. I haven't got many variants of the tapes and I can't substantiate this, but I reckon that it was always on tape 1 and this was often contradicted by the artwork.

I've seen the U-Matic masters for the originals and they had Murder on tape 1, I can see no variants of the masters that moved it to the second tape.

I suspect not many people can play these now so I don't entirely trust the Discogs editors. Have any actually confirmed a version with it on tape 2?

Substance was my the first NO thing I bought - having heard all the singles from Blue Monday onwards

I have the linen box cassette edition and at the time, I was hotly anticipating finally getting to hear Murder, as it was the only single I'd not heard

I was expecting it to be another electro pop banger and remember being deeply confused by what seemed to be a fairly uneventful instrumental in the midst of the cassette (grown to love it though!)