Retro - A simple solution ?

My point is not about what should or should not be on the Box Set but about the band's attitude to accessing unreleased material. What's wrong with London Records setting up a small e-commerce site where sad fans like me could pay a fee to download demos, live tracks, etc ? It's money for old rope, where's the problem ? It would make money for the company, have little costs to set up & run, put the bootleggers out of business in one fell swoop, please the fans & it wouldn't interfere with their real job of repackaging the same songs over and over again for mass-market sales. The market in bootlegged material shows that the demand is there for unreleased material, it just needs a bit of imagination to tap into it.

they have not really got those type of download ideas to work... most people just copy it... plus mp3s have lower quality, and most people don't want to pay for a shoddier product when they can copy for *free*

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Fair point. Some people are complaining that Retro has not got the rare versions of some songs but the vast majority of rare tracks are already floating around the web available for download.

What's the point in:

1. Paying a fee for downloading 'rare' tracks
2. Moaning about Retro, its tracklisting and price

when most of these rare tracks are already on the web anyway?

...because as previously stated, demos are NOT for public consumption and Barney in particular would not allow these to be released officially in any form. As for live tracks, again Barney would be very unhappy about unmixed/unmastered live recordings being released to the public - I am very surprised that the "live" disc is happening at all to be honest considering his view of such recordings.

Mixing or re-mastering live recordings is a very costly & time consuming business and the limitations of a strightforward DAT of any given concert are enormous. In all honesty, while I love seeing them live, some of their gigs have been less than fantastic in both music & sound terms - personally this has NO effect on me as a fan but to Bernard this just would not be acceptable.

There ARE several muti-track live gigs in the vaults and I reckon that they just MIGHT see the (official) light of day in the future. Some of the INITIAL versions of the extras on the forthcoming DVD were based on pro-live recordings. I'm not sure what version of the "documentary" I worked on is finally being released on that DVD but I do know that my copy (of the doc' that is) is 50 minutes long. I think the final version was about 20 minutes.

... yeah but is that you stood next to Mozzer?

has anyone heard the quality of the live disc yet????

Originally posted by FourFortyFive ...because as previously stated, demos are NOT for public consumption and Barney in particular would not allow these to be released officially in any form. As for live tracks, again Barney would be very unhappy about unmixed/unmastered live recordings being released to the public - I am very surprised that the "live" disc is happening at all to be honest considering his view of such recordings.Mixing or re-mastering live recordings is a very costly & time consuming business and the limitations of a strightforward DAT of any given concert are enormous. In all honesty, while I love seeing them live, some of their gigs have been less than fantastic in both music & sound terms - personally this has NO effect on me as a fan but to Bernard this just would not be acceptable.There ARE several muti-track live gigs in the vaults and I reckon that they just MIGHT see the (official) light of day in the future. Some of the INITIAL versions of the extras on the forthcoming DVD were based on pro-live recordings. I'm not sure what version of the "documentary" I worked on is finally being released on that DVD but I do know that my copy (of the doc' that is) is 50 minutes long. I think the final version was about 20 minutes.

considering some of the "confused" states I've seen barney do gigs in I think he's a bit of a twat for whining about quality of items being poor/not for public consumption as opposed to the expense of paying for a ticket and travelling to a gig to see someone who can hardly speak.

that was my thought exactly...if Bernard is so concerned with quality, why does he CONSTANTLY fuck up live? Atmosphere does NOT need whoops and hollers...and come on, introducing True Faith in 2002 as "New Version" when we all know it's the Perfecto mix into from 95 is failing to uphold his so called standards...another thing...why on the Electronic ticket stub for the Wembley show does it say "Electronic do not use tapes" yet NewOrder's current live show is laughable because of their use of taped music...so many other "electronic" acts (underworld, chems, orbital, plaid etc.) can "jam" live yet the pioneers, NewOrder, rely on half of Lionrock to program and press play? Why can't New Order in 2002 decide "Let's play Sooner Than You Think for these bastards" and then play it? Total bullshit and a scar on their history...Bernard is no more concerned with quality than any other New Order fan...he's just a twat...nice haircut, baby face, sweet voice, decent guitarist, twat...stay off the charlie, memorize your lyrics, stop whooping during the slow, emotional numbers and lighten up!

i'm baffled why so many people make such a big deal that they hope New Order goes on tour again where they live... all i ever read is how a nervous Barney makes an idiot out of himself, how the music has become staged and the same concert to concert. how the audience stands there bored, with no dancing or energy, staring in bewilderment at Barney. face it, it isn't 1980 or 1985 anymore.

my point was not to bring back the past but to point out the inconsitencies of Bernards so called "professionalism"...if he is concerned with quality, why on earth did he allow SlowJam, Rock the Shack, State of the Nation, Shellshock etc...to showcase his lyrical talent? Ok rant over...NewOrder are the best even if i can see the flaws....

Except if you are a FAN like me that realizes his own limitations and laughs at them you can understand where BARNEY is coming from.I am a PERFECTIONIST too in my line of collecting MINT copies of CDs/LPS etc and yet fail in most other aspects of life to one degree or another.You either go under or have a laugh.Barney has a laugh...so do i.My failing is drink.Don't know or care what his is..but at least he still getting up and doing it.As for staring quietly i seem to remember quite a bit of FUN at the MOVE and FINSBURY gigs.Try standing next to MAJOR or SHUGZV!We all have a choice with them....put up or shut up!I know what disappointment is but there are degrees also.Let's chill and enjoy cos they ain't going to change. Rocket NO REGRETS Mick :D:D:D:D

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid that was my thought exactly...if Bernard is so concerned with quality, why does he CONSTANTLY fuck up live? Atmosphere does NOT need whoops and hollers...and come on, introducing True Faith in 2002 as "New Version" when we all know it's the Perfecto mix into from 95 is failing to uphold his so called standards...another thing...why on the Electronic ticket stub for the Wembley show does it say "Electronic do not use tapes" yet NewOrder's current live show is laughable because of their use of taped music...so many other "electronic" acts (underworld, chems, orbital, plaid etc.) can "jam" live yet the pioneers, NewOrder, rely on half of Lionrock to program and press play? Why can't New Order in 2002 decide "Let's play Sooner Than You Think for these bastards" and then play it? Total bullshit and a scar on their history...Bernard is no more concerned with quality than any other New Order fan...he's just a twat...nice haircut, baby face, sweet voice, decent guitarist, twat...stay off the charlie, memorize your lyrics, stop whooping during the slow, emotional numbers and lighten up!

yes Yes YES... YES !!!!

So it seems that Barney will only allow us to hear a sanitized, airbrushed version of the past ? A version that eliminates from the official history, 'inconvenient' items such as the original recording of Ceremony or the 7" of Temptation, as they might have a bit more guts in them than the bland, officially approved remakes ?

I thought this was a punk band ?

... it was.

But its 2002 and they've served their time. They're not 21 anymore.

After watching Hultsfred again last night with my bird I cannot remember a more entertaining 3 mins. of pure, classic NO japes (70's punk days included).

Barney in dark glasses (it was night time) and full gunslinger jacket begins to do his fabulous one legged hop during a musical interlude through Crystal and proceeds to fall backwards laying sprawled out near Steve Morris who simply carries on as if nothings happened. After Barney manages to scrape himself back to his feet like an upturned tortoise he skips back to the mic. for more whooping and whistling.

At that moment (camera is fixed close on Bernard) Hooky just 'walks' across Barney as if he's on his way to the shops for a bag of sweets, he must have thought, I know, let's just walk from one end of the stage to the other - again, completely un-phased by Barney's calamity. Some skinny fella is in the background, literally, in the backround ... erm, like, in the dark at the back of the stage ... playing along as if there were no tomorrow.

All the while the synth parts are up and down in the mix, Hooky's hitting bum notes so grotesquely loud they drown any other sound out, Steve his hitting the sticks but his snare sometimes disappears and Barney screams 'wow!' at the top of his voice at the exact moment the song is at its most mellow moment.

I ask you - if that isn't punk what is?

If you want to see Gareth's Gates or Christina Enchilada hit the notes to perfection accompanied by a cast and crew of 50 and a light show so spectacular it seems the world is nigh then the tickets are about 70 quid including coach there and back.

This album is a collection of recordings that New Order feel best represents their back catalogue - which part of this do you not underdstand?

When they are reduced to punting demos and tracks that weren't fit for release 20 years ago then it really will be time to knock it on the head. As for the "punk" reference; what's punk about screwing your so-called fans by releasing below par shite in the hope of pleasing so few? Having heard very many of the demos - from 1980 to the present day, I would prefer the public to hear the proper release versions. This album is not aimed at the few dozen kids complaining here you know. This is a marketing exercise for London Records and New Order therefore they will endevour to make it as attractive to the majority as possible.

Yes H'Man - that is me with Mr M. outside the Edinburgh Playhouse in 1985 - September to be precise.

Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid ...another thing...why on the Electronic ticket stub for the Wembley show does it say "Electronic do not use tapes" yet NewOrder's current live show is laughable because of their use of taped music...

Please explain this "tape" nonsense.

What year? - its it possible to elaborate on your relationship with the cheese consumer or was it a brief moment in time?

Your not riding one of them Penny Farthing's on the 'Stop Me' vid. are you?

Originally posted by FourFortyFive > Originally posted by Biznotic Love Trapazoid> ...another thing...why on the Electronic ticket stub for the Wembley show does it say "Electronic do not use tapes" yet NewOrder's current live show is laughable because of their use of taped music...

Please explain this "tape" nonsense.

He'll mean backing tapes.

Oft confused with sequencers.

It doesn't really matter, Barney, Hooky and Steve all play as many live parts as possible.

More sequenced in the past perhaps?

Unless I'm very much mistaken - it HAS been known - I'm unaware of any use of backing tapes live. I had this idea that it was all Pro-Tools to be honest. I know you have more than a little music knowledge H', so give me your view on this please. They previously relied upon hardware sequencers so what's changed?

Originally posted by Huntsman But its 2002 and they've served their time. They're not 21 anymore.After watching Hultsfred again last night with my bird I cannot remember a more entertaining 3 mins. of pure, classic NO japes (70's punk days included).Barney in dark glasses (it was night time) and full gunslinger jacket begins to do his fabulous one legged hop during a musical interlude through Crystal and proceeds to fall backwards laying sprawled out near Steve Morris who simply carries on as if nothings happened. After Barney manages to scrape himself back to his feet like an upturned tortoise he skips back to the mic. for more whooping and whistling.At that moment (camera is fixed close on Bernard) Hooky just 'walks' across Barney as if he's on his way to the shops for a bag of sweets, he must have thought, I know, let's just walk from one end of the stage to the other - again, completely un-phased by Barney's calamity. Some skinny fella is in the background, literally, in the backround ... erm, like, in the dark at the back of the stage ... playing along as if there were no tomorrow.All the while the synth parts are up and down in the mix, Hooky's hitting bum notes so grotesquely loud they drown any other sound out, Steve his hitting the sticks but his snare sometimes disappears and Barney screams 'wow!' at the top of his voice at the exact moment the song is at its most mellow moment.I ask you - if that isn't punk what is?If you want to see Gareth's Gates or Christina Enchilada hit the notes to perfection accompanied by a cast and crew of 50 and a light show so spectacular it seems the world is nigh then the tickets are about 70 quid including coach there and back.

Indeed SHUGZV sent that video too.THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT but i own that move from the WEDNESDAY NIGHT AT THE PHOENIX,entrance fee nothing ,drinks £1 a pint.Now this is PUNK!.You dancing HUNTSMAN?:D

Well, new hardware sequencers (you also know about this) can record audio and sequenced data (notes to trigger instruments) ... so it would be quite easy (normal?) to incorporate, say, backing vocals or a guitar part from a particular recording of a song. Not saying they do this but that is available to them ... at no extra cost!

Years ago hardware sequencers usually had 4-8 tracks and were standalone devices, rather than software running on a computer, so they did not make a sound only triggered a device. My point is that before, say, 1993, NO would have to have set-up sounds on multiple devices which were triggered 'live' by the hardware sequencer.

Typical set-up (guesswork only) in 2002: Apple Mac G4 (dual) running Pro-Tools (although Bernard recently reported using Cubase which is what I use so this is boss) Digi 001-2 interface 1 Synth (Yamaha or Roland seemed to be favoured)

Apple plays (whether audio or MIDI notes) drum machine sounds, synth parts, backing etc. itself ... with the synth left for occasional live notes (string on BM for instance). Even though the standalone synth could power TPK (all audio and MIDI inc. guitar and singing) using about 25% of it's capacity! - how times have changed.

So the rig is 1 computer with interface and 1 synth ... plus the NO band accompanying this.

Typical set-up in, say, 1986: Yamaha RX21 drum machine Casio SZ1 sequencer Yamaha DX 5 Yamaha DX 7 Emulator II (for samples) Several floppy disks (which would need to be fed to instruments between a few songs i.e. when the memory had ran out) Steve's Octapad linked to several drum machine modules Guitar pedals (as opposed to 1 almighty FX unit) and so on ...

So older days = more risk and more live?

Just a thought.

(Incidentally, Roland D10 and D50 most likely on Technique 4 O'Clock, with 'Fantasy' preset used on VP)

Agreed - the tape notion probably stems from the audience hearing backing vox and overdubs. I watched the band sans-Barney doing "True Faith" at the MCR MOVE soundcheck and I can assure you that the layered vocal parts were sequencer driven NOT tape.

Circa '86/'87 it was Voyetra 8 - Yamaha RX 11 drum machine - Emu II & a Yamaha QX 3 or 5 sequencer etc., etc....

What do you make of REASON btw? I got version 2 t'other day and it has to be said that it represents amazing value for money...

Im a big fan of Reason, its simple, well integrated and with some thought can produce excellent results, the Mailstrom is a huge improvement over the Subtractor and enables some great layered effects to be created and its a doddle to MIDI sync your NNXT

I am currently using Reason 2.0 as a slave for CubaseSX (which is also superb by the way)

Originally posted by DoN Im a big fan of Reason, its simple, well integrated and with some thought can produce excellent results, the Mailstrom is a huge improvement over the Subtractor and enables some great layered effects to be created and its a doddle to MIDI sync your NNXTI am currently using Reason 2.0 as a slave for CubaseSX (which is also superb by the way)

But what is this ALL used for?Bit of a tecie novice with this!Please explain in layman terms.:D

Having worked with Steinberg since the eighties I remained faithful. Although I did miss the gigantic transition around the mid-nineties when computers gained power so spectacular you could shine your shoe off it when I regained consciousness from work back to work/play I invested again in Steinberg with Cubase ... the version before SX.

Good combo. of software and real instruments is always best so I'm lucky to have very old and very new. Reason seems pretty amazing and my pal uses this, he's a seasoned pro. doing tv work and software (Dave Mirra BMX anyone? - whatever the hell that is), and he's a 'real muso' being a jazz pianist - anyway, he swears by it and states 'Battery' is classic. As I guess most of it is. Like you say, value for money! ... to say the least. Comparing it with gear in the 80's ... dear me.

Having just picked up 'Stylus Groove Module' for about 160 sheets - well, what a belter. About 3 gigs. of loops, but also included are MIDI files, which in effect, allows you to program your own patterns with the supplied loops (trigger as a soft synth through host sequencer). So you get 3 gig. of loops, plus you can then use any of the sounds from any of the loops as a drum machine! ... completely bonkers premise but amazing in practice.

On top of this they've chucked in 1,000 separate drum kicks and 1,000 snares!!! ... my good lord.

If your into piano sounds, i.e. a piano which sounds like a piano, then buy Steinberg's 'The Grand'. Absolute perfection - spent half my life trying to find a decent playable piano sound and now I've got a grand on a disc.

Smashing.