Retro's Liner Notes...a very mild diatribe

I just saw the news that Retro will include a 72-page booklet similar to the one included with Heart and Soul. My first thought was "Cool." My second thought was hope they show some restraint and drop the verbal nonsense. Does anyone else feel this way about NO when it comes to the subject of how they promote themselves in recent years?

In Heart and Soul’s liner, the Paul Morley section is absolutely awful; Turmel’s academic approach to the band is only a bit better. And how about that damn growling narrator on the New Order Story…”because they cared, because they couldn’t care less.” Or yet another gem, “Trapped between the pleasure of it all………and the pain.” I spent most of my time laughing my ass off at that woman or alternately thinking I would give real money if she would just shut the fuck up. International’s liner notes continue the new tradition of delivering senseless and trite information.

Now some might jump on me and say that’s the point of promotion like the stuff above…they’re continuing their “tongue-in-cheek, we’re not serious (except when we are), we’re not voices of a generation or anything like that” approach they’ve used many times in their career. Some might say NO is continuing to poke fun at themselves by including such well-produced but often un-SUBSTANCE-ial promotion.

I have to ask why they would do this at this point in their careers.

Liner notes like International's and Heart and Soul's feel like notes written for adolescents. Sure, the notes are for adolescents who are sensitive…adolescents who might love Hamlet...adolescents who don’t listen to Britney Spears. However, I am 32 and a lot of NO/JD fans are of similar maturity. Why speak to those feelings we may have had 20 years ago but have hopefully outgrown? On the other hand, if NO is including tongue-in-cheek material to make a joke, I say it’s an inappropriate one because it cheapens the band and their fan base alike: it makes fun of a band with a fantastic legacy, a band who succeeded when they shouldn’t have, and it makes fun of fans who are pretty atypical.

I bet there are a lot of people like me who loved New Order, separate from their music, because NO was quiet, because they seemed to treat their careers like careers, because they seemed to understand that people buy music because they like the music, because they didn’t seem to buy into the cult of personality that pervades entertainment. The changes that came with London are primarily good ones, I suppose, but something a little rotten has crept in as well. And verbal vomit liner notes are examples of that for me.

I just feel it’s time for the band to evolve a bit when it comes to the issue of how they promote themselves. They have always had high-production values and that doesn’t need to change, but they’ve replaced their silence with a glibness which is just plain dumb half of the time. Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of good in the way they promote themselves. New Order Story was a great documentary about the band but it has elements of mockumentary throughout. It’s time to drop that attitude I think.

What do you guys think?

I used to hate the Paul Morley piece with a passion, but after a while it kinda grew on me. Chances are, he'll be penning a piece for it, and I would hope Jon Savage revisits his historian duties for the Retro booklet.

I've always used Paul Morley as a whipping boy for what I hate about self-important rock journalists, but sometimes his stuff isn't that bad. A lot of the pieces in Ideal For Living are overdone, but it's easy to get caught up when you're writting about something you're passionate about. I don't fault him his passion for Joy Division and New Order, I just wonder how much sleep he gets at night, because his prose is so often hyperactive. At any rate, you can always skip the written pieces and just enjoy the photos.

Yeah, I liked Savage's piece--that's the kind of info I find interesting. But something you said made me realize the kind of stuff I would appreciate. I'm not real interested in pics or the like. But wouldn't it be cool to have a musicologist (or someone with real musical training) talking about certain tracks? Or a new piece on how exactly NO affected/fits into the electronic and dance scene? Tecnhical facts about tracks would be cool also.

I guess what I'm saying is I like real information and am irritated by insubstantial journalism or unnecessarily over-specific, faux academic criticism.

Among the many hats I wear is that of a teacher of English Lit/Comp at UCLA. I have used bits of Morley's piece to show my students the results of unfettered excess in one's prose. When students see writing like Morley's, they really do understand that good writers can often write poorly. It's a great piece for underlining that writing involves choice. That said, there's no excuse for such writing, and I still maintain that if NO includes such drivel in Retro, they are doing themselves and theirt fans a disservice.

Then again, it's only the liner notes for a CD boxset, right?

I always thought that the booklet for JD's Permanent was awful as well. The make it sound like JD came from another planet and were out to save music. I think I bought that CD when I was about 17, and even then I thought the liner notes were garbage. It tries to make you feel like you're special or cool or something. Like it's the type of CD you want to brag and show off to your "musically uneducated" friends.

I feel the same way about NO Story. It was almost as bad as U2's Rattle and Hum video. The band seemed to act pretty normal, but the video tries to make them seem like the greatest band in the world.

I'm still in high school and I can write better than Paul Morley can. Paul Morley sucks.

i have still yet to figure out what kind of babble the guy who wrote 's linear notes is talking about.

Originally posted by Snucker i have still yet to figure out what kind of babble the guy who wrote 's linear notes is talking about.

Nice use of a smilie there.Itend to ignore the prose and look at the wonderful pictures.:D

Super, yet another thing everyone can complain about - the liner notes. So now, we have a group of people that can not only do the song compilation, but now they are better at writing liner notes too. Let me ask the obvious question here - why aren't you guys in the business if you are all so adept at music and prose? Could we have a thread or two that are positive, thankful, and appreciative? I know it is a tall order, but maybe we can muster a bit of gratitude. Would you have rather had NO quit 8 years ago? Could we please try to find things to be pleased about? Are British people that picky? I am British, and my mother is British and we can somehow use our facilties to compliment instead of be critical. I am very thankful that my favorite band is still making music, releasing CD's, still selling old albums, putting out DVD's, new mixes, new B-sides, etc.... I am glad they are doing a box set, and I will appreciate it regardless of the track listing - I am looking forward to the mix disk and the live disk, let alone the bonus disk. I for one, love NO and I am glad they are trying to please fans that seem to be rather ungrateful.

true true. but it's so much more fun to bellyache than to praise.:D

Originally posted by Snucker true true. but it's so much more fun to bellyache than to praise.:D

It also takes more time and effort too.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by Snucker true true. but it's so much more fun to bellyache than to praise.:D

It also takes more time and effort too.

I think bellyaching comes with the territory of being a New Order fan....really, though, you can only take so many delays and aborted projects (to be fair, more a label decision than a band) before you start getting discouraged.

The linear notes issue is really a non-issue because no one buys the albums for them, but you appreciate it when a lot of effort was put into it. Compare that with some overdone piece of fluff slapped together by Morley at the last minute, and you can't help but feel cheated.

I liked Morley's notes on the Permenant booklet, but once you start reading the more balanced and journalistic approaches (Ideal For Living, Mick Middles' book), Morley just comes across as a little too much. I did grow to like his H&S essay, but Morley's an acquired taste.

As for "why don't you write the linear notes?", believe me I'd love to. But I don't have the established position in rock journalism as Mr. Morley, so I'm not likely gonna get that offer. I plan on being a writer, one of these days I may publish something relating to New Order, but I'm sure I will never be asked to pen the linear notes. It would be nice to do, nonetheless.......

Originally posted by Wolfmann Super, yet another thing everyone can complain about - the liner notes. So now, we have a group of people that can not only do the song compilation, but now they are better at writing liner notes too. Let me ask the obvious question here - why aren't you guys in the business if you are all so adept at music and prose? Could we have a thread or two that are positive, thankful, and appreciative? I know it is a tall order, but maybe we can muster a bit of gratitude. Would you have rather had NO quit 8 years ago? Could we please try to find things to be pleased about? Are British people that picky? I am British, and my mother is British and we can somehow use our facilties to compliment instead of be critical. I am very thankful that my favorite band is still making music, releasing CD's, still selling old albums, putting out DVD's, new mixes, new B-sides, etc.... I am glad they are doing a box set, and I will appreciate it regardless of the track listing - I am looking forward to the mix disk and the live disk, let alone the bonus disk. I for one, love NO and I am glad they are trying to please fans that seem to be rather ungrateful.

Couldn't have put it better myself CTB

Wolfmann,

There are a few things I really don't get about your post.

You ask people to be appreciative. Have you missed the excitement surrounding the release of Retro? Have you missed the polls asking people what their favorite NO songs are? True, there are complaints about the band and about the band's music on here, but I don't think there are many NO fans who aren't appreciative.

I assume you were speaking rhetorically when you asked why we don't get into the "business" if we thought we could do better; if you weren't, then you were engaging in a very childish kind of logic. In addition to the unfriendliness of such remarks, those kinds of questions are conversation-enders. I'm always curious as to why people involve themselves in a conversation in which they're not even interested. You don't like it, don't join it...the thread dies off.

All that said, I must say that I am grateful to the band for the work they've produced. I am grateful for the impact that NO's music has had on my life. But my being grateful has nothing to do with whether or not I can state a negative opinion about the band on a bulletin board designed for those who love the band.

I think I was trying to make a subtle point about the relationship between the band's promotion of itself and the kind of music they've produced since Republic. To be clear, I think they've lost their way a bit, musically. By this, I mean that although their technique and craftsmanship is superb, there is something missing.

Now, when I say that something's missing, I may mean that there is an urgency or lack of direction in the band's output. I'm not sure I would be able to put it in words. I love Regret...I love Close Range, and I really like Primitive Notion and Crystal. But something's missing, and yes, I may be wrong about it being the music...it may, in fact, be that something's changed in me. I definitely entertain that thought at times.

Whatever the case, I feel like there is a certain glibness associated with the band's promotion of itself, and I wonder, sometimes, if that's coming from the band itself. So, do you see my point? I sometimes worry that what we're seeing is an artistic lack of focus in the band and although they are so good at what they do that they can make good enough music, especially for us fans, they're not really making the music that they are still capable of.

Well, I hope you have a better sense of what drove my complaint. I do really despise Morley's writing, and I think that many non-professionals could do better.

I will say one thing to you about your use of the word, "critical." I was critiquing an aspect of NO's work; I did it in what I thought was a thoughtful and "mild" way. You, however, were critical of those who express negative opinions about something you feel positive about. In other words, you didn't critique my points, you criticized me. It's not a very friendly thing to do.

Originally posted by Brant Tinsley Wolfmann,There are a few things I really don't get about your post.You ask people to be appreciative. Have you missed the excitement surrounding the release of Retro? Have you missed the polls asking people what their favorite NO songs are? True, there are complaints about the band and about the band's music on here, but I don't think there are many NO fans who aren't appreciative.I assume you were speaking rhetorically when you asked why we don't get into the "business" if we thought we could do better; if you weren't, then you were engaging in a very childish kind of logic. In addition to the unfriendliness of such remarks, those kinds of questions are conversation-enders. I'm always curious as to why people involve themselves in a conversation in which they're not even interested. You don't like it, don't join it...the thread dies off.All that said, I must say that I am grateful to the band for the work they've produced. I am grateful for the impact that NO's music has had on my life. But my being grateful has nothing to do with whether or not I can state a negative opinion about the band on a bulletin board designed for those who love the band.I think I was trying to make a subtle point about the relationship between the band's promotion of itself and the kind of music they've produced since Republic. To be clear, I think they've lost their way a bit, musically. By this, I mean that although their technique and craftsmanship is superb, there is something missing.Now, when I say that something's missing, I may mean that there is an urgency or lack of direction in the band's output. I'm not sure I would be able to put it in words. I love Regret...I love Close Range, and I really like Primitive Notion and Crystal. But something's missing, and yes, I may be wrong about it being the music...it may, in fact, be that something's changed in me. I definitely entertain that thought at times.Whatever the case, I feel like there is a certain glibness associated with the band's promotion of itself, and I wonder, sometimes, if that's coming from the band itself. So, do you see my point? I sometimes worry that what we're seeing is an artistic lack of focus in the band and although they are so good at what they do that they can make good enough music, especially for us fans, they're not really making the music that they are still capable of.Well, I hope you have a better sense of what drove my complaint. I do really despise Morley's writing, and I think that many non-professionals could do better.I will say one thing to you about your use of the word, "critical." I was critiquing an aspect of NO's work; I did it in what I thought was a thoughtful and "mild" way. You, however, were critical of those who express negative opinions about something you feel positive about. In other words, you didn't critique my points, you criticized me. It's not a very friendly thing to do.

Imagine that. Someone named "Wolfmann" being unfriendly.

Originally posted by Brant Tinsley Wolfmann,I think I was trying to make a subtle point about the relationship between the band's promotion of itself and the kind of music they've produced since Republic. To be clear, I think they've lost their way a bit, musically. By this, I mean that although their technique and craftsmanship is superb, there is something missing.Now, when I say that something's missing, I may mean that there is an urgency or lack of direction in the band's output. I'm not sure I would be able to put it in words. I love Regret...I love Close Range, and I really like Primitive Notion and Crystal. But something's missing, and yes, I may be wrong about it being the music...it may, in fact, be that something's changed in me. I definitely entertain that thought at times.Whatever the case, I feel like there is a certain glibness associated with the band's promotion of itself, and I wonder, sometimes, if that's coming from the band itself. So, do you see my point? I sometimes worry that what we're seeing is an artistic lack of focus in the band and although they are so good at what they do that they can make good enough music, especially for us fans, they're not really making the music that they are still capable of.

YES! Good point Brant. They have lost their way a bit in my opinion. We get second rate nonsense like Slow Jam and Rock the Shack and cheese like Run WIld but no masterwerk like The Perfect Kiss, Temptation or Blue Monday. Just yer average New Order tunes eagerly lapped up by thirsty fans. Greatest Hits coming out the ass whether it's International or the unchanging set list for people who only listen to BBC 1. I love New Order and feel like some people are not able to both critcize and respect a band simultaneously. I love them but i think they are making big mistakes...beginning with signing to London Records and going dowhill sharply since then.

I think two seperate issues have been confused here - I thought Brant was making comment on the promotion of their product via the liner notes, not the music itself. If you feel that the quality of New Order's output is lower since the London signing, fair enough that's your opinion. I happen to disagree, but that's only my opinion, no more valid than anyone elses.

I agreed with Wolfmann because it seemed there had been a slew of criticism here caused by the tracklisting of Retro (Retro as in retrospective, by the way, not a rarities compilation. Retrospectives usually contain previously recorded material on them, thats what makes them retrospective). The announcement of the bonus disc seemed to turn some opions around, but now even before anyone's seen it, the essay/s are being criticised. I would have thought that the bands involvement with this kind of thing was minimal - they are musicians, and never pretended to be anything but that.

If Morley or Savage write some impressions of New Order on the booklet for Retro, so what? It doesn't change the music - these guys are chosen (not neccessarily by the band) because they a) have something to say about the band because of their position in relation to the band historically and b) they are in a position to do so. Discussing the merits of the way they do it is probably irrelevant until we at least see it.

Someone's writing style when they are writing about a band they like shouldn't affect how you hear the music, surely? Just an opinion, nothing more CTB

I actually agree to a level with a lot that Brant is trying to put across here..

The issue is not so much NewOrders musical material yet the peripheral material surrounding releases, which you get the impression has less and less to do with the band members themselves...

Like NewOrder themselves its biggest and most solid fanbase has grown and evolved over the last 20 years. The mystique and much of the mystery that surrounded them has certainly vanished of late.

I used to subscribe to a fanzine in an often vain attempt to glean information about the band and their music as they were often so minimal and flippant in their approach to interviews and and tv/radio appearances (very similar to the aura that PSB held around that spell of late 80's early 90's in fact) very very cool if not somewhat distant.

With so much information at our fingertips now much of that if not ALL of that is now all but a memory. We should not approach and evaluate the band in the same way we did in the last century.

Just as a sidenote does anyone remember the inlay note Barney wrote for RTS??

I remember not quite knowing whether to believe if he actually wrote that or not... Have a look and tell me what you think.

It's obvious that Barney is NO's leader. From what I have heard and read of him, he is glad NO went the direction they did for Get Ready. He was excited to be playing live instruments again instead of sampling. I like him as a band member, I like how he does what he feels like saying "Piss Off" to the people. I believe (for the greatest part) that he makes the music he wants to, and on his terms. So, in liking his persona, I like how he changes directions, going places the "fans" don't want him to go.

"piss off" I like that. And I think Paul Morley's writing is annoying.

Originally posted by Wolfmann It's obvious that Barney is NO's leader. From what I have heard and read of him, he is glad NO went the direction they did for Get Ready. He was excited to be playing live instruments again instead of sampling. I like him as a band member, I like how he does what he feels like saying "Piss Off" to the people. I believe (for the greatest part) that he makes the music he wants to, and on his terms. So, in liking his persona, I like how he changes directions, going places the "fans" don't want him to go.

Barney has evolved into NO's leader over the years. Always chief songwriter (in terms of tunes/structure) even as Joy Division, the added lyrical responsibility has increased his standing within the group. That's not to say that the others didn't and don't now have major parts to play in the construction of songs.

Interesting what you say about excitement about playing live instruments again.....after all, it was Barney who wrote and recorded Republic (with occasional help from the rest of them), and Barney who, in collaboration with Johnny Marr, went down the Electronic route (clue in the name ?). Hooky's always been the one who lived for the live show, whereas Barney would, I suspect, quite happily never play live again.

Oh come on, Wolfmann. Are you a thoughtful person or just a sycophant?

Barney goes places the fans don't want him to go? What a solipsistic view of the band. I assume that Barney and the rest of the members make music as they always have, drawing from current musical trends along with their own inspirations, desires and musical ambitions among other things. Maybe they think about fans, or "fans" as you so curiously term them, but I doubt they think too hard.

I do see that you've failed to address my points about the promotional trends of the band. As I said before, if you're not interested, why do you participate in the thread? Or do you still find NO in need of a defender of the faith, even on wwww.neworderonline.com?

I've already implied this earlier in the thread, but I'll make it clear. I really like and respect Get Ready. In fact, Republic may be the only NO album that ever disappointed me. So, in effect, you are not reading the thoughts of someone who is CRITICIZING the band. You are reading the ravings of a fan who is interested enough in the band to try and state his true feelings so that like-minded souls can courteously converse with him. Dialogue is a good thing.

I still think that there are aspects of stagnation in the band that show up in both the music and the promotion. Maybe it's because as you suggest, Wolfmann, Barney is the leader. Maybe not, I have no clue. But I do know that one-sided defenses of the band carry little weight.