Ceremony ; primarily JD or NO

Most of us,if not all of us, love Ceremony, but where do you consider its roots lie? Do you consider it a Joy Division song as it had been recorded along with In a Lonely Place at Graveyard Studios Prestwich in 1980 and appears as a live track on Still [performed at Birmingham University]. It was refined by New Order and released on vinyl before the release of Still.

Definition of PRIMARY:

First, original, first order in a system of successive branches, first formed primative, elementary, fundamental.

Theres no argument...It's PRIMARILY a Joy Division song

I don't think NO have been able to improve on it, and it was written by JD, so there you have it.

I personally prefer the Joy Division version. Curtis' vocals are particularly great.

it's consider it a bit of both...but i usually think of it as a NO song.

Originally posted by Spotnick Who cares..Joy Division = New Order So it's a song from the same damned group!

true, i've ALWAYS thought of them as one band

and they could hardly not think of Ian while recording these songs, so maybe the answer is the obvious "both"

i think they made a great choice, saving these two songs as a transition. and moving on after.

Originally posted by Spotnick Who cares..Joy Division = New Order So it's a song from the same damned group!

Your point is fundamentally flawed, Joy Division had a different lead singer, how can you say they are the same?

Originally posted by almanso if you consider it a JD song maybe you should start thinking about if any of the movement´s songs were written on the JD era. what do we know? maybe crystal was a song barney originally wrote in 1979! and if this is true would crystal be a JD song for you? I say NO because it was edited by NO, with or without gillian. but I think is nonesense, because we´re talking about the same band with different names. If you say "but the music is different" then you should start considering new order since temptation or blue monday, when they definetly cutted off the strings that attached them to JD. it´s a never ending discussion, you know? what came first? the egg or the chicken?

TOSH!!!

The song was conceived by the four members of Joy Division, and sufficiently rehearsed to warrant a more than decent performance during the May 2nd Birmingham show. Furthermore, before Gillian joined the band, the three surviving members of JD continued to develop the song (Western Works demo, when they still hadn't settled on a new name) and came up with the definitive arrangement, as immortalized on the original 7" version. In sum, Ceremony is primarily a Joy Division song, put out under the New Order moniker.

But ultimately, it's all immaterial.... certainly in its first year of existence, New Order pretty much continued in the vein of Joy Division anyway.

Primarily it is a JD song, but in the end it is a NO song.

Basically it doesn't matter. Bernard wrote it anyway, with Ian knocking up some random words. Most JD/NO songs could be split down to "written by B.Sumner", but they chose to acknowledge the whole band (except currently on Temptation it seems ;)).

I love both the Joy Division version (who is the dickhead that booked them into Graveyard Studio?), but I love the newOrder version as well, but it is a Joy Division song.

It's a Joy Division song, but who were Joy Division? The boys in New Order. The only thibg that makes this an issue at all is the fact that they changed names. Most other bands lose members, but no-one questions the origins of their older songs. Pink Floyd, The Manics, etc, etc. Are any of their old songs not THEIRS? They are the same people, for god's sake.

Joy Division 'cos it's credited: written by Curtis, Sumner, Hook, Morris

what exactly are you folks referring to by NO 'refining' or 'developing' the song ? I don't hear that.

i'd still consider it a NO song, cuz if it was a joy division song, they wouldn't have played it very often live (seeing that new order vowed to only play new order stuff for a long time...)

It's OUR fucking song, of course....................

joy division's

Johnny Giles wrote "......this track wasn't even recorded by JD"

but they did, the demo which is on the 'Heart and Soul' set.

anorak ? huh ?

I've got to take issue with this too- Benny wrote "Basically it doesn't matter. Bernard wrote it anyway, with Ian knocking up some random words. Most JD/NO songs could be split down to "written by B.Sumner", but they chose to acknowledge the whole band ..."

I have a hard time seeing Bernard in the JD days writing a complete bass line for Hooky to play or dictating a drum arrangement to Steve. Especially a complex one like this song uses. And how can you say those are random words ? Ian's 'random' words are better than most pop musician's deliberate words, then... so what's left ? 2 chords and a little melody which alternates for attention with the top notes of the two chords. Ceremony in fact sounds to me like the most democratic song JD ever wrote. If it had more chords, Bernards share of credit would have been larger. I don't think Bernard came up with the melody that Ian (and later Steve and Barney) sang, either, it sounds totally within Ian's style.

Martin Davies wrote "who is the dickhead that booked them into Graveyard Studio?"

I thought that was the band's name for their practice space, located adjacent to a graveyard.

even though JD recorded ceremony first, i think the NO version is superior and whenever i hear the song i think of NO, not JD. so, i suppose i'll vote for NO. either way, it's a damn fine song.

I heard hooky once say that Ceremony to him defined the End of joy division not the Beggining of New Order

Id say its a Joy Division song because the lyrics are so unmistakeably Ians, in a way its like his good-bye note to everyone he loved and New Order just read it out for him. You can hear a bit of what will soon become New Order in there, because they were slowly evolving, but it still sounds closer to JD.

'watching forever....'

It's OK, Al, you can still have it that way in your mind.

This thread seems to have brought out the worst in all you Noolers, seems to be a touchy subject. Please forgive me for starting it.

New Order played it EXACTLY like JD did on Still. Of course it's a JD song. They didn't change it at all.

It was written as Joy Division, as was In a lonely place of course the song progressed, all songs do when they are played over time but had joy division continued it was going to be one of the bands mainstays

who played it most? new order

whose name is on the sleeve of the only offical releases of the song as a seperate entity? new order

whose song is it? see above.

who cares if its new order or joy division anyway as long as they keep it in the set!

It's a New Order song with lyrics by Ian Curtis.

Bitchin' about who's song it is! Unfuckinbelieveable! It's a New Order song. Full Stop!

It seems kind of silly to whine about us having this discussion at all and then throw out your opinion on the matter in the same breath.

so what about in a lonely place?

Lol. In a Lonely Place leaves me feeling torn two ways. In many ways it's my favourite New Order song. Sometimes the lyrics make me think of Ian writing them about his mistress or his wife, other times I imagine Bernard singing "How I wish you were here with me now" about Ian. It's gloomy, but so very powerful with it.

barny could never have written lyrics like that

joy division song polished by new order

Originally posted by Jim Giliberto joy division song polished by new order

Just the way I like to look at it

Originally posted by teleharmonium It seems kind of silly to whine about us having this discussion at all and then throw out your opinion on the matter in the same breath.

What's your point caller?

It's pretty obvious what my point is Johnny

Originally posted by Spotnick Who cares..Joy Division = New Order So it's a song from the same damned group!

I second this! this poll is quite annoying.....

Originally posted by Chuckles > Originally posted by Spotnick> Who cares..> > Joy Division = New Order > > So it's a song from the same damned group!

I second this! this poll is quite annoying.....

I agree.

Al, if you're going to criticize my post, at least have the decency to acknowledge that it was in reply to your ridiculous rant that you subsequently deleted.

Since I'm feeling charitable today, I did go ahead and add to my profile (which already included my name BTW). Now you can start developing a psychological profile with which to try and discredit my future arguments, or more easily stalk me.

Teleharmonium,

Ceremony is a song that's credited, in the name of equality, as written by Joy Division. Most of the music Joy Division produced was written by Bernard, believe it or not, but FACT nonetheless. Curtis contributed lyrics, rarely musical ideas.

The Rolling Stones 2nd (i think) single, I Wanna Be Your Man, was written and demo'd by Lennon and McCartney. Does that make it a Beatles song? No, I think not.

There are numerous examples of this throughout the music industry. Nothing Compares To You for example. Written by Prince, made famous by Sinead O'Connor.

Ceremony. Written by Joy Division. Released by New Order. New Order song. Simple as that.

I always thought of "I wanna be your man" as Beatles song, I've never heard anyone else do it, I'm surprised that the Stones did it (I'm not a big Stones fan although I like some of their psych era stuff and Brian Jones was cool as hell). The Grateful Dead very likely played 'Not Fade Away' more often than New Order have played Ceremony live, but it's still a Buddy Holly song (at least, as far as I know...). I think I know what you're getting at, which is that in some cases an artist will become mainly associated with a song that they didn't necessarily write or do first, which in the biz is often called 'owning' the song. Like you might hear it said that it is an old traditional tune, but the Beach Boys 'own' Sloop John B, and Jimi Hendrix 'owned' Hey Joe. I can accept that in the case of New Order and Ceremony, but I still personally think of it as a Joy Division song that New Order kept in their repertoire and made into one of their signature tunes. I realize that this is a blurry distinction, but a lot of things are blurry in life, I gave up pretending that everything could/should be clear years ago.

Originally posted by Johnny Teleharmonium,Ceremony is a song that's credited, in the name of equality, as written by Joy Division. Most of the music Joy Division produced was written by Bernard, believe it or not, but FACT nonetheless. Curtis contributed lyrics, rarely musical ideas.The Rolling Stones 2nd (i think) single, I Wanna Be Your Man, was written and demo'd by Lennon and McCartney. Does that make it a Beatles song? No, I think not.There are numerous examples of this throughout the music industry. Nothing Compares To You for example. Written by Prince, made famous by Sinead O'Connor. Ceremony. Written by Joy Division. Released by New Order. New Order song. Simple as that.

You forget to mention that NO played it EXACTLY like JD did. They didn't change a thing really. Listen to it on Substance and then Still - no real difference in style or content (with the exception of Ian's voice). The song wasn't started with JD, it was completed... then NO just continued it. I agree with others to drop this line of questioning... as long as people stop telling other people that NO is the real song owner, when all they did is cover it... would you call Transmission a NO song? What about Love Will Tear Us Apart? Hell NO! By now, NO have played those songs more times, for more years than JD did but it doesn't make one bit of difference - they are all JD songs only covered by NO.

Originally posted by Johnny Teleharmonium,Ceremony is a song that's credited, in the name of equality, as written by Joy Division. Most of the music Joy Division produced was written by Bernard, believe it or not, but FACT nonetheless. Curtis contributed lyrics, rarely musical ideas.The Rolling Stones 2nd (i think) single, I Wanna Be Your Man, was written and demo'd by Lennon and McCartney. Does that make it a Beatles song? No, I think not.There are numerous examples of this throughout the music industry. Nothing Compares To You for example. Written by Prince, made famous by Sinead O'Connor. Ceremony. Written by Joy Division. Released by New Order. New Order song. Simple as that.

Wrong - see above. JD did release the song... it's on Still

well its 60-40 in favor of joy division

4-15 sounds better anyway

can we all agree to differ than and put this to rest?

I always like the last word

Its NO song :)

The question was not, "is it a JD song or a NO song?", but "is it primarily a JD song or a NO song?"

The answer to the first question must surely be NO, but to the second JD.

Good points well made JG.

I've always heard it as NO's first real musical acheivement, so I guess I'll vote NO. Besides, the two or three JD versions (there may be one other besides Still or the box set that I'm not thinking about) haven't really come off well, but that's due more to lousy recording than the band's performance. so, anyway, New Order's it is.....

NEW ORDER song for me!And what a great one at that.Laugh....i could almost carry on working.

I`ve changed my mind, I think its a New Division song..........

......I`ll get my coat

this is getting silly. let's stop a flame war and just consider the facts here:

1. the JD versions we have are very much the finished song.

2. NO rewrote the lyrics to the first verse. although they're not understandable on "H & S", they're definitely not the same lyrics as on the released versions.

3. NO both released it and played it live during a time when they were no playing any JD songs.

everyone should be able to draw a conslusion from these that they are personally happy with, without getting into a slagging match. let's just act like adults, eh?

i dont mean to pick but barney didnt re-write the first verse he just forgot it!

At least we have learnt something from this poll, there are members that like to debate and others that only dictate!

Here's my tuppence worth on this.

If I remember correctly "Ceremony" was going to be recorded by Joy Division in May/June 1980 during or shortly after the end of their American tour. It was to have been released as a single on Factory in Autumn, 1980 had events not otherwise intervened. So primarily for me at least it is a JD song. I suspect New Order (and Factory) released Ceremony b/w In A Lonely Place as a fitting tribute to Ian, and secondly because these two songs were far better than anything else they had written themselves by early 1981.

But the difference isn't all that important as I believe that JD and NO are esentially the same band (no shit Sherlock I know)

I just wish they'd release the original 7 and 12 inch New Order versions of these tracks on CD.

Originally posted by little boy lost The question was not, "is it a JD song or a NO song?", but "is it primarily a JD song or a NO song?"The answer to the first question must surely be NO, but to the second JD.

Yes! Completely true. Ceremony is a NO song, but the way it sounds is JD - since they didn't change the way the song is played from JD to NO. But, since JD never released it, it is a NO song. Now, let's all go back to something more meaningful...

Originally posted by ken colquhoun Here's my tuppence worth on this.If I remember correctly "Ceremony" was going to be recorded by Joy Division in May/June 1980 during or shortly after the end of their American tour. It was to have been released as a single on Factory in Autumn, 1980 had events not otherwise intervened. So primarily for me at least it is a JD song. I suspect New Order (and Factory) released Ceremony b/w In A Lonely Place as a fitting tribute to Ian, and secondly because these two songs were far better than anything else they had written themselves by early 1981. But the difference isn't all that important as I believe that JD and NO are esentially the same band (no shit Sherlock I know)I just wish they'd release the original 7 and 12 inch New Order versions of these tracks on CD.

What a great

i voted for NO, as i mentioned earlier, as they made it what it is, but here's a new spin:

since i can't understand a damn thing either ian or barney is saying in either version (with the exception of 'avenues, all lines with trees'), i'll put it this way:

ceremony = primarily a bernard sumner song (with lyrics by ian curtis).

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by comEar> At least we have learnt something from this poll, there are members that like to debate and others that only dictate!

I'm just truly amazed that people might initially think 'Ah, Joy Division!' when they here the opening bassline, that's all.

Now, Eric Cantona? ManYoo player, or Leeds player?

Let's face it. Most people haven't even heard the JD bassline opening - sales of Heart and Soul......

IT'S A NEW ORDER SONG !!!!!

Strange that on the 511 dvd during the new order 9802 segment, Barney starts talking about doing old Joy Division songs and then a live clip of In a Lonely Place is played! Proof even the band members think so.

Then why include both on Retro if they were Joy Division songs? Both are I suppose, transitional songs between JD and NO and are unique in that respect but like Al says, if you hear Ceremony at a gig or on the radio you immediately think of New Order. That answers is surely?

btw - as an aside, is there much difference between the versions of Ceremony on 7" and 12"? Have got a copy of the 7" but not sure if I've heard the 12" before.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by little boy lost> The question was not, "is it a JD song or a NO song?", but "is it primarily a JD song or a NO song?"> > The answer to the first question must surely be NO, but to the second JD.>

Yes! Completely true. Ceremony is a NO song, but the way it sounds is JD - since they didn't change the way the song is played from JD to NO. But, since JD never released it, it is a NO song. Now, let's all go back to something more meaningful...

Who ever said the stuff above really hit the nail on the head. This is the complete truth, giving proper credit to both bands where the credit is do. So, please close this thread as the questions have all been answered.

Who ever said the stuff above really hit the nail on the head. This is the complete truth, giving proper credit to both bands where the credit is do. So, please close this thread as the questions have all been answered.

Damn right. Make it stop!!! Please!!!

Originally posted by mh > Who ever said the stuff above really hit the nail on the head. This is the complete truth, giving proper credit to both bands where the credit is do. So, please close this thread as the questions have all been answered.

Damn right. Make it stop!!! Please!!!

Hello... webmaster, are you out there? Lock this thread please!!!!

Originally posted by frank smarra I heard hooky once say that Ceremony to him defined the End of joy division not the Beggining of New Order

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by John Sweeney > Originally posted by frank smarra> I heard hooky once say that Ceremony to him defined the End of joy division not the Beggining of New Order

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ As I've said before, if people hear the opening bassline of Ceremony and think 'Oooh, Joy Division!' then I'm truly amazed. Perhaps you were the lucky ones who had a boot of the Brum Uni show back in 1980 then were dismayed that those upstarts released it eight months later without Ian. But you weren't, were you? I'd bet ten to the dozen that the first time you heard this song was a New Order version. And, if not, you probably came to this band quite late or just had your head stuck in the sand when New Order's version was released.

Does the cold chill your brain in these icy winter months? Dont worry Ill get my missus to knock you up a knitted hood for your anorak or would you prefer a crocheted one!

Originally posted by zico Then why include both on Retro if they were Joy Division songs?Both are I suppose, transitional songs between JD and NO and are unique in that respect but like Al says, if you hear Ceremony at a gig or on the radio you immediately think of New Order.That answers is surely?

Barney on the subject of Ceremony: "Ian tried to commit suicide once before he killed himself. He took an overdose, and went to a hospital. When he came out we did two concerts and we wrote two songs, which were In A Lonely Place and Ceremony..." "Those songs were our inheritance from Ian and they got us going again."

• Taken from the Retro booklet

Also, in the song credits on Retro: "In A Lonely Place Written by Joy Division... Published by Fractured Music/Zomba Music..." "Ceremony Written by Joy Division... Published by Fractured Music/Zomba Music..."

Now, every other song on the box set says that it's published by Warner Chappell Music Ltd.

On the Heart and Soul box set, if you look on the CDs themselves, you'll notice that it says: "Published by Zomba Music/Fractured Music"

And last, you have the two "Fractured Music Archive" live albums by Joy Division.

It seems to me that Fractured/Zomba Music owns the publishing rights for every Joy Division song, and Warner Chappell Music owns the publishing rights for every New Order song.

Now put all the peices together and here's the answer: Ceremony and In A Lonely Place are Joy Division songs. THE END.

It's actually a cover of a little-known Barry White song, so yer all wrong ;)

& people wanted to close this thread???

this is all because people are looking at the question in different ways imho.

to me when i think of it i think of it as a new order song, dont think about which incarnation of the band wrote it. hang on - hasn't that been said before?

And who gives a shit!!

They are performed by new order and sung by Barney so to all intent and purpose they are NOW NewOrder songs.

Now stop bickering and just bloody enjoy them!! ;)

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by DoN.> They are performed by new order and sung by Barney so to all intent and purpose they are NOW NewOrder songs.

You just chuck that cat amongst those pigeons, Mr Brasco!

You now saying that LWTUA and Atmosphere are New Order songs too?

I'd beg to differ! ;)

I was being much more literal than was probably obvious Jarvo, i meant NewOrder have inherited them, adopted them if you like, given them a new lease of life or lick of paint!

They may have been crafted when the band was name JoyDivision but as they are now being performed and recreated under the guise of NewOrder.

So believe it or not when they perform these songs they dont change their name to JoyDivision they remain NewOrder ;)

I guess it depends on how you define ownership really!!

where can one get hold of this ceremony song anyway?

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by comEar> > > > Originally posted by John Sweeney> > > > > > > Originally posted by frank smarra> > > I heard hooky once say that Ceremony to him defined the End of joy division not the Beggining of New Order> > >

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, fantastic, we even now have people supposedly para-phrasing Hooky in attempts to bolster their arguments.

Having a chat in the pub with him one day, were we?

As I've said before, if people hear the opening bassline of Ceremony and think 'Oooh, Joy Division!' then I'm truly amazed. Perhaps you were the lucky ones who had a boot of the Brum Uni show back in 1980 then were dismayed that those upstarts released it eight months later without Ian. But you weren't, were you? I'd bet ten to the dozen that the first time you heard this song was a New Order version. And, if not, you probably came to this band quite late or just had your head stuck in the sand when New Order's version was released.

actually it was in an interview might have been from the brixton video but im not sure

Oh... when will death visit us all? Sometimes I think not soon enough. Ceremony was written by JD, melody and words. Therefore JD should get the credit for the creation of the song. NO never changed the rythym, words, melody or anything from the way it was originally created. So, NO plays it, JD wrote it... if it takes a yank to see the OBVIOUS, then so be it. If NO changed the melody and rythym of the song, then it would be theirs, but they didn't. It would be like some band taking "Turn The Heater On" and playing it for the next 20 years calling it their song. NO wrote it both lyric and melody, so whether some band makes it their song by playing it a bazillion times over twenty years is a moot point. The song is made by the creator, not the band who covers it. NO essentially is covering a JD song that was written too late for them to cement it under their name... it's not like that wouldn't have happened if Ian didn't die. Stop being so blind and give Ian the credit he deserves for his hand in writing the songs. NO was the instrument used to present the song to the world. Think of JD as the manufacturer and NO as FedEx. You need both to get the product out to the world, but they both should only get the credit for their part in the whole thing.

Well, I know my last post seemed a little blunt, but I had to throw in my two cents.

Look at it this way, if you view JD and NO as being the same band because it has the same members minus Mr. Curtis, then you've done yourself a favor. To me, it's all part of the same history.

To those who think they are two seperate bands, the only answer is that the band, under the name Joy Division, own the copyrights for the two songs, and New Order just did a cover of it.

And to the person who stated that next week I'll probably listen to The Velvet Underground and think they are the greatest band in the world... well, been there, done that about two years ago. I've been working on Lou Reed solo stuff now. JD/NO are still and will be the greatest to me.

Originally posted by Wolfmann It would be like some band taking "Turn The Heater On" and playing it for the next 20 years calling it their song. NO wrote it both lyric and melody, so whether some band makes it their song by playing it a bazillion times over twenty years is a moot point. The song is made by the creator, not the band who covers it. .

Ahem, that was a really bad example to prove your point Stephen.

Originally posted by zico Then why include both on Retro if they were Joy Division songs?Both are I suppose, transitional songs between JD and NO and are unique in that respect but like Al says, if you hear Ceremony at a gig or on the radio you immediately think of New Order.That answers is surely?btw - as an aside, is there much difference between the versions of Ceremony on 7" and 12"?Have got a copy of the 7" but not sure if I've heard the 12" before.

To my ears the original 7" and 12" (green sleeve) versions of "Ceremony" are identical. the 12" (cream and blue sleeve) version, released on "Substance" and "Retro" is a re-recording and is much softer in tone (and in my opinion not a patch on the first.) The 7" version of "In A Lonely Place" is a four and a half minute edit of the 12" (green sleeve) version which is about 6 min 15 sec long. The 12" cream sleeve version of IALP is also over 6 min in length but contains additional effects not on the first release, this version was on "Substance" and "Retro" as well.

Al wrote: "As I've said before, if people hear the opening bassline of Ceremony and think 'Oooh, Joy Division!' then I'm truly amazed."

It doesn't take much to amaze you then man. That song was created by JD, and it sounds like them, not New Order. That's why it (along with IALP) stands out so clearly from everything else NO plays, even in the early days.

It's a pretty simple song, so we can easily make some comparisons.

vocals - the lyrics are unmistakeably Ian's, as is the vocal melody, which resembles the vocal part from Atmosphere

drums - similar to Transmission, it is a typical contribution from Steve that many drummers would have a hard time duplicating and certainly is much more complicated and well put together than anything that could have come from any of the other members of the group

bass - totally in the JD style and sound, using precisely the same droning string moving up and down a fourth with another lick on top as you will find in She's Lost Control and Twenty Four Hours

guitar - this part is a little harder to nail down since it is about as similar to the material on Movement as it is to any of the mature JD songs, but the sound of Barney rocking out on a couple of thick, simple chords letting his Vox do what it does best seems more JD to me; the guitar melody also leans to the JD side to me, it reminds me of Disorder and the whole song is sort of like an up tempo Autosuggestion.

The arrangement developed and used by JD when they did the song is the same one New Order uses today, except for some lyrics being misplaced, and Hooky slightly changing the bass melody on the bridge (forever... watching love grow...) to go up to his high note instead of down to the open string like he did with JD and some early NO versions - I consider both of those differences to be mistakes or laziness, not improvements by any means.

"Perhaps you were the lucky ones who had a boot of the Brum Uni show back in 1980 then were dismayed that those upstarts released it eight months later without Ian. But you weren't, were you? I'd bet ten to the dozen that the first time you heard this song was a New Order version."

In my case you'd lose the bet, as I first heard the song on Still. I had heard some New Order at that point but it was JD that really drew me in, I had not yet checked out any earlier NO than what was current at that time (mid 80s).

But none of this really matters, does it ? When or under what circumstances we first heard the song, or how many times we like it, which 'band' we like better, how well we like them, etc. That's all after the fact trivia that has nothing to do with the making of the song, which obviously happened before any of us heard it.

I have a big problem with revisionist, retroactive assignment of authorship without the consent of the actual creators of any kind of art by people who weren't involved. That whole notion stinks and reminds me of the lame rationalizations people go through to justify theft of intellectual property (napster, etc). As a person who creates things and doesn't often see any cash as a result of it, this hits home to me. Anybody that thinks this thread is out of hand is welcome to browse the archives of the boards at prosoundweb.com, we had a battle royal on that topic a while back that has at least 4 times the responses as this one, with many of them lengthy essays (I'm guilty of that). I mean, it's great to be a loyal fan and to defend what you think is the honor of 'your group' or something, but to whatever extent the original question was about authorship, as opposed to the vague notion of who a song is associated with among music listeners, there is simply no question. There's a certain kind of 'ownership' of a song that will always belong to those who created it, regardless of how well or how many times or how much better known someone else's performance is.

Originally posted by teleharmonium I have a big problem

Not wrong there ;)

Teleharmoniun. Not gonna quote you for sake of space. Many bands have lost a member or even several members and carried on under the same name. So I find your whole approach a bit strange when you start describing Morris' drum sound and Hook's bass sound as Joy Division sounding. What's the difference? They chose to carry on under a different name and release a couple of tracks THEY had already written. The fact that there are similarities with their previous recorded output is hardly unusual. Do you actually think they have stolen the song from Curtis?

I heard Ceremony on the radio in 1981, the New Order version, a friend played the Still album to me the same year. From then on I considered it to be a Joy Division song. It didn`t stop me loving it any less and I preferred the New Order version. So when I hear it now I think New Order singing a Joy Division song. :D

Al, I've never been much of a radio listener, but as I said I had heard other NO tracks (not Ceremony) first, and then JD. The ones you would be most likely to come across around 84-87 were PK, Temptation, Blue Monday, etc., but not Ceremony. I don't think I've ever heard Ceremony by New Order played on the radio, and there isn't a promo video for it. I don't think very many people in the US were exposed to it other than serious fans or music geeks until Substance came out, and even then it seemed to be a song that gets skipped over a lot.

Hank W. wrote "So I find your whole approach a bit strange when you start describing Morris' drum sound and Hook's bass sound as Joy Division sounding. What's the difference? They chose to carry on under a different name and release a couple of tracks THEY had already written. The fact that there are similarities with their previous recorded output is hardly unusual."

We are discussing whether the song is a "JD song" or a "NO song" so it makes sense to go into the provenance of it and look at how it was made, how it relates to other material of theirs and so forth. You're not really serious when you ask 'what's the difference', are you ? You literally don't make any distinction between the 2 bands ? Despite their connection they sound very different from one another, a brief transition period aside; NO has obviously gone into other areas and sounds and has a different audience than JD did, albeit with some overlap. I can tell the difference between the 2 bands instantly if a recording is played, you probably can too, I expect.

"Do you actually think they have stolen the song from Curtis?"

No, of course not, don't try to put words in my mouth. I'm saying he, Barney, Steve and Hooky created that song (to say "wrote" really isn't enough and minimizes the other members' contributions to the arrangement). The point is that if you want to say it's a "New Order Song (c)(P)" because it is included in their setlist often and an important part of their repertoire and history, fine, but you can't say NO created it, because they didn't and everybody knows it, NO as such couldn't write a song like that to save their lives; and as far as I'm concerned you can't say NO did it "definitively" or "better" because they didn't do that either.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by teleharmonium> Al, I've never been much of a radio listener, but as I said I had heard other NO tracks (not Ceremony) first

Can't say I'm *that* surprised, having seen New Order in America meself, but over here everything they did went top 40, until Perfect Kiss, so you couldn't really avoid them, especially if you were a regular reader of the music press, which all of us seem to have gone through at some stage in life. Marry that with the death of Curtis, and that created a lot of curiosity about the band. They might be solely seen as a cult band Stateside, but over they're fairly mainstream, with just a tinge of 'cult' about them.

I made a very closely related comment in the "Stephen, Barney, Hooky.....SELLOUTS??? " thread but i'd go as far to say that even the "cult" tinge seems to be gradually evaporating over time

I think the ambiguity of the word "primarily" has got everyones knickers in a twist!!

Al wrote "You're twisting this thread again, aren't you? No one said New Order created Ceremony."

I don't think I'm twisting this thread any more than it has already been, and if you look on the previous posts you'll see IIRC Benny trying to say that the song was really written by Barney with 'random' words by Ian, which I guess is tatamount to saying NO wrote it and basically minimizing or denying Ian's involvement.

You're the one who keeps trying to twist it into being about the personalities or qualifications of those that don't agree with you. I'd suggest sticking to the subject of whether it is "primarily" a "new order song" or a "joy division song" but in your case I don't think you have anything to support your view other than the fact that you really, really think it is a NO song and consider yourself an authority on the subject.

Al wrote: "And as for you saying that New Order could never hope to write such a song is utterly beyond me. "

If you think NO have ever written a song as good as Ceremony, then we have a legitimate difference of opinion there. What song (s) would you put in that category ?

"Of course, Ian wrote absolutely everything by himself, didn't he? Well, didn't he? "

Of course not, we all know this and nobody has suggested otherwise.

" Seems to me that most of my knowledge has been garnered from personal experiences over 20 years though. Whereas you've come to this a little late and are attempting to repeat one fact you've learned, ad nauseum."

I've liked them since 84 and been what I consider a fan since about 87/88. That's a little late ? I went through a period where I didn't listen to much else and have worn out many cassettes from my collection of at least a hundred live tapes, which I painstakingly put together back when such things were accomplished with letters, want lists on paper, and perserverance, not just downloading an MP3. I'm not trying to impress anybody; nonetheless this is my personal experience and I value it as what it is. Tell me, what one fact have I supposedly been repeating ?

ok, this thread is getting hurtful and even a little personal and really, at the end of the day, what does this matter?

i mean, it looks like a battle of who is "right" and we can argue this till we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, no one is "right." we just have individual opinions of what think of when we hear ceremony and leave it at that. someone lock up this thread please...or never bring it up again.

Originally posted by Isamu

wow - is that post primarily a JD post, or a NO post?

Originally posted by Isamu

Isamu, did you nick that from George Michael`s website?

Al wrote: "Didn't someone earlier make a comment about armchair fans? You've listened to lots of tapes? Wow! Have you never actually seen them live? You haven't said."

No, I haven't seen them, I probably would have mentioned it if I had. Nice of you to ask. Naturally, I would have liked to have seen them, but they've never played anywhere around where I have lived at the time, and in the past, particularly my teens when they were touring more often, I didn't have the means to go globetrotting to attend concerts (oh well, poor me). Still, I don't think it is a universal rule that one has to hear a musician live in person in order to appreciate them. Seeing as I've heard them playing live innumerable times, on tape rather than in person, it's kind of an existential line you're drawing, isn't it ?

"I don't think New Order have anything in their live set to rival Ceremony. Read the top 5 thread .......(snip) so obviously the majority DO consider that New Order have produced better work, and bar perhaps the latter I'll agree that Temptation and Perfect Kiss are of an equabl quality to Ceremony - I've done enough gigs to be able to work out which ones are popular with the majority, and which tracks are not. And those three have always, and will always be, stand-out tracks."

I agree about Ceremony, and I have no problem with other people liking other tracks better or it being down in polls. Polls don't really do much for me though, I just don't value other peoples' opinions that much unless there is a special reason to.

"At the time of Curtis's death, Ceremony was but a work in progress. Thank heavens New Order applied the finishing touches."

What finishing touches would those have been exactly ? You've never backed that up with anything or been specific.

Apart from changing the guitar riff, the bassline and the drum pattern ?

what about those things are you saying were changed, Benny, specifically ?

Originally posted by teleharmonium what about those things are you saying were changed, Benny, specifically ?

Specifically, when it was first played by New Order and later subsequently recorded by New Order Barney changed the timing on the guitar chords used as the main guitar riff from that played by Joy Division. Hooky changed the bass middle eight, and also the timing of the final bass riff. Steve changed the drum pattern throughout the song.

Al, I don't understand your criteria for what makes one a 'hardcore' fan, but I can't say it makes much difference to me, so no need to elaborate. You have taken to the much maligned habit of 'repeating the same fact over and over again ad nauseam', in this case the fact that I haven't seen the band live, but I don't share your view that it is essential to do so in order to appreciate them, it's not like they're the Grateful Dead (thank god).

Benny wrote :"Barney changed the timing on the guitar chords used as the main guitar riff from that played by Joy Division. Hooky changed the bass middle eight, and also the timing of the final bass riff. Steve changed the drum pattern throughout the song"

The NO single of Ceremony has the same guitar part with those chords double tracked or panned and delayed so that it echoes just after the first one, but it's the same part, not really a difference in the arrangement, more of a production touch. Barney frequenly double tracked guitar parts in the studio in the JD days in cases where he was the only one playing when they did the song live (ex. Dead Souls, Atrocity Exhibition, Colony). In the JD demo he plays the opening riff with an A near the end, this differs from the NO single but I think it was a one time thing, IIRC the Birmingham soundcheck tape has him playing it the same way he did in pretty much every other time whether JD or NO. I haven't noticed a difference in the bass part between the JD and NO single or early live recordings, but I would have to listen closely again to see if I can tell what you mean by the middle 8. Did you mean just before the guitar major arpeggio comes in and the vocals go to 'watching forever...' (I consider this the bridge)? I definitely do not hear any difference in the drums. There is a little delay effect with a gate on the toms and snare on the NO studio version which is not present on any of the JD versions, but it's also not there on any NO live recordings and is clearly something added as a production technique.

Originally posted by teleharmonium ...I just don't value other peoples' opinions that much unless there is a special reason to.

?

Can I just say

"In a Lonely Place"

Primarily a Joy Division song or primarily a New Order song?

(JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Merry Xmas

Johnny Giles wrote: "Now you're reaching new limits. Don't they have an airport near you? NO played 4 gigs on the West coast of USA/Canada in 2001..."

Why yes, there is an airport near me. That particular excursion would have been about $1000 US total to attend one of the shows, with air fare, a cheap hotel and a ticket. If I had the time and money to do things like that I would more likely spend a little more and go to Europe on the cheap; as it is, my financial priorities lean toward the many expenses involved in my own musical ventures, with record collecting a second to that, and live concerts a remote third, more of an occasional treat. While I don't do much of that now, I happen to have seen some pretty incredible shows in the past for a person of my age, so I don't really defer to anybody in terms of the overall quality of what I've seen. Miles Davis, Sun Ra, the Residents, Sonic Youth before they were 'big', Red Crayola, AMM, La Monte Young, Cecil Taylor, also many other jazz usicians come to mind, and I don't think I paid more than $20 for any of those.

"You equate listening to live tapes in your bedroom - with all your trusted JD text books to hand for erotic pleasure no doubt - as comparable to the real thing. Hmm, an interesting stance, particularly as you aint done the real thing to make that comparison"

well there's no need to be a rude jackass about it. The hell with that smug clique attitide, you don't have a monopoly on appreciating music. "He Johnny alone understood this, he had intuitively grasped every nook and cranny of their psyches..." yeah right.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles > Originally posted by teleharmonium> > > No, I haven't seen them, I probably would have mentioned it if I had. Nice of you to ask. Naturally, I would have liked to have seen them, but they've never played anywhere around where I have lived at the time, and in the past, particularly my teens when they were touring more often, I didn't have the means to go globetrotting to attend concerts (oh well, poor me). Still, I don't think it is a universal rule that one has to hear a musician live in person in order to appreciate them. Seeing as I've heard them playing live innumerable times, on tape rather than in person, it's kind of an existential line you're drawing, isn't it ?>

Now you're reaching new limits. Don't they have an airport near you? NO played 4 gigs on the West coast of USA/Canada in 2001, where you could have seen them play both Atmosphere & LWTUA. Even New Dawn Fades if you stayed till the end of Moby's set in LA. But not Ceremony ironically. We bumped into the band at Vancouver airport & were told by Barney that 'they don't really know Ceremony in the States'!, maybe cos it's not on Best of? dunno. You equate listening to live tapes in your bedroom - with all your trusted JD text books to hand for erotic pleasure no doubt - as comparable to the real thing. Hmm, an interesting stance, particularly as you aint done the real thing to make that comparison. I'd be interested in your view after 60 mins down the front at a gig with Al, 445, Shug etc. I know this is not directly linked to the thread but when I read such naive comments I can't let them go. The 3 11 & 5 16 titles provide the answers which you are seeking, the answer to the *primarily* question. Still, you can replay the debate as often as you like when the chrods kick in of this track there wont be many at the gig thinking JD.

Shouldn't you be on the beach?

Al, I've listened to the song many, many times, as most of us would say I expect. As I play music and have become a pretty decent recording engineer in the last few years I tend to look at things in a 'how was it made' mentality lately, in many cases, but you are quite right that it certainly isn't equivalent to or a substitute for just listening to it for pleasure, which I did first countless times in this case. They've been part of the soundtrack of my life through thick and thin. This thread has prompted me to listen to it more times in comparison mode, and I just got both original 12" versions in the mail so I was comparing them to each other and to the 3 JD versions (previously I only had it on the copper 7" and the track on Substance, as far as the NO studio versions). I don't think there is anything wrong with listening in a analytical way sometimes, as long as it's not the only way. I've always been one to listen closely, I don't do 'background music', if I want to listen to something I listen to it and don't talk over it. Sometimes people that come over don't know how to react to that, but then I just get them stoned and play it loud on my killer tube hi fi and it all works out. JD/NO songs (especially the older ones) are funny that way because they are usually so well put together with few parts that they are sort of a puzzle and a demonstration of 'less is more'. Anyway, I really don't mean to try and convert you guys to my way of thinking, I have no problem with you guys thinking of it as a NO song even as I disagree as to that categorization. I doubt the band agonized over it as much as we have, I think it was more like 'well, we need some songs, these 2 kick ass and they're still fresh so we'll keep them and write some new ones that one of us can sing'.

No offence, but you've got little chance of [ahem] 'converting' us 'guys' to your way of thinking. You're a rank amateur compared to some of us, when all is said and done. It's just a shame you can't actually see that.

Tis the season to be jolly so have a good one anyways.

Jarvo if you need the knitted hood the missus says its yours, all those gigs mate... you`re a real pro gig bloke, hats and hoods off to you sir Jarvo.. he of the pro squad

all i can say about this thread now is wow. i'm surprised i haven't heard this yet:

'i've been a fan since december 3, 1981' 'well, i've been a fan since december 2, 1981...so there!'

just get out yer measuring tapes, boys....

well, i hope you all had a merry christmas in between all this infighting. listening to ceremony.

Originally posted by AgentWood all i can say about this thread now is wow. i'm surprised i haven't heard this yet:'i've been a fan since december 3, 1981''well, i've been a fan since december 2, 1981...so there!'just get out yer measuring tapes, boys....

come on, this is enough. someone lock up this thread or let it die because it's getting stoopider by the minute.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by teleharmonium> "No, I haven't seen them

My Mrs has seen NO live 24 times, and she ain't even a fan. Well, not a hardcore one, as such. Just as passenger. But, if I were to ask her - 'Ceremony - primarily JD or NO?' she'd say "New Order", without question.

If you were now to tell her that JD originally penned said song she'd be gob-smacked. But, primarily, to her, and remember she's probably just a little more hardcore than you are (after all, she's seen this band from LA to Vancouver to Paris to Cologne to Stockholm to Sydney to Perth AND she's even on the latest New Order DVD) she would still define it as a New Order song, PRIMARILY.

Like I said, it's down to personal experience, and not simply down to boring people with writing credits.

Each. To. Their. Own.

Are you living your life vicariously through your "Mrs"? I don't remember you being asked "How many times have the people around you seen NO".

P.S. Is "My Mrs" referring to your wife or mother?

hmm, i believe that is called adding context, or using examples to illustrate a point, not rilly living vicariously...

but then you knew that rilly didn't you.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> > > Are you living your life vicariously through your "Mrs"? I don't remember you being asked "How many times have the people around you seen NO".> > P.S. Is "My Mrs" referring to your wife or mother?

My Mrs is my better half. It's basic fcuking Ingerlish. Please, keep up. ;)

And I'm hardly living my life through my Mrs. But the point I was trying to make was that Teleharmonium thinks that listening to live bootlegs somehow helps bolster his argument, whereas my Mrs has actually attended more New Order gigs than he could ever hope to attend, yet really has no idea that the writing credentials for Ceremony are down as Joy Division.

But which one's the 'ardcore fan - the armchair supporter, or the individual who gets off their arse to follow New Order worldwide? But then, that's for another debate.

Point taken. I know NO through their studio music, not seeing them in person too. I would never presume to know more about them then I can glean from their studio releases and the few boots I have. I would really like to meet them someday and see them play live. I have been a lover of their music for 19 years now, but I have never been able to see them. I did make a promise to myself, if they come to the US again - I will see them. I relate to them as a studio band, I love their studio work. Their live stuff is interesting, but no where near the caliber of their studio work. I consider myself a NO purist, I don't care for their live sound, and I do not care for remixes of their original 7's and 12's. I can appreciate how much talent it takes to play electronic music live without taken the easy way out using tapes, but I just don't get a lot from the live sound. In my eyes, NO is the best in the studio working on original material, no matter how many times I see them live, they will always be a great studio band.

A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

is there gonna be a fight, cmon wheres the agro whoa..

for your facts ceromony is a cure song given to new order through jd when they were all hanging out together having boy gang bangs:)

It's a Joy Division song!!!!!!!!!!!!! and for all thoses ardcore New Order fanatics that disagree..........take a fuckin walk!

Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

By the way i'm not having a dig at anyone in particular, just putting my point across. Cheers.

Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

Please, don't call seeing NO live "the real thing" because it's not. Not even for NO it's not. They prefer the studio because to them, that is the real thing. I am sure seeing them live is really cool, if they don't happen to suck that night. I would love to see them, but it will still never compare to hearing them at their best on studio releases.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood> A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

Please, don't call seeing NO live "the real thing" because it's not. Not even for NO it's not. They prefer the studio because to them, that is the real thing. I am sure seeing them live is really cool, if they don't happen to suck that night. I would love to see them, but it will still never compare to hearing them at their best on studio releases. Abosolute Crap'.....No one enjoys playing live more than Hookey.....Fuck me' why form a band if you dont like playing to an audience....? Why pick up an instrument in the first place....? Wolfie your talking outta your arse geezer.Sitting at home listerning to them on LP or what-ever, does not come near to the buzz and feeling i' have felt(and many thousands of others) of seeing them in a club, hall or field, in the rain,wind or sunshine. Memories....Special memories, thats what it means to me.....do you remember every time you play them at home...? Get real and see them live a few times O.K.

Have to agree with you there Al - was never that impressed with Ceremony off Substance, but when I heard it live - WOW - what a difference. Remember Ally Pally being a great example.

(Oh, and I had to watch them from the side of the sound desk as the wife nearly got crushed during the opening lines of Regret :( )

Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

Amen!

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

i think we should just close out this thread with this wise statement.

...after i've said this. i feel damn lucky that my favourite band is a recent one, because it means i've been able to see NO live several times. however, i don't think one has to see a band or artist live to truly get the 'feel' of that artist, or that seeing them live makes me more of a fan than someone who hasn't seen them live. if that were true, anyone who is a fan of a musician who was in their prime before the 1950s or 1960s would be screwed. billie holliday, robert johnson, enrico caruso: none of these artists can be enjoyed live, and there are very few who can say they saw these artists in person (well, in caruso's case, nobody can say this). in their cases, arguing about how many concerts one has been to simply doesn't work. also, i'm sure that there are people in third world countries, or countries where bands just don't tour, who simply do not have the financial or logistical means to see their favourite musicians live, who are equally as knowledgable or fanatical about their music as someone who has had the privilege to go to concerts. finally, i know people, particularly at the radio station i used to work at, who went to concerts every night and have seen certain bands dozens of times. often, this was out of habit rather than a particular affinity for the band in question. and does seeing a band ten times, but from the top row of a massive stadium, constitute a closer experience with that group than watching the video, complete with close-ups, a few months later? seeing new order is not like this, but in the cases of some artists who are adored by others, this may be the only way to see them. my point being, while seeing a band live is a unique experience that is certainly different from listening to recordings, it is not always possible and sometimes it is inherently impossible to have this experience. therefore, a person's commitment for and knowledge of a musician shouldn't be gauged by how many times they have seen them in concert. perhaps making this argument is futile, as disagreements in this thread have become ridiculously personal and i'm sure someone will become haughty while reading this. i dread becoming dragged into this thing, but i just can't hold back anymore. c'est la vie. and as our benny said, ceremony is a top song....:)

its a pet shop boys tune and thats all she wrote:)

I never made a statement that I am the biggest NO fan. The biggest NO fan would spend $500 to fly somewhere just to see them, even though they have seen them 5 times already this year. I would never do that for any band ever. Even when I was younger without a family I would never do that. Would I drive 5 hours to see NO? Probably. So, I love NO and they have been my favorite band for 19 years. I have read a lot about them. I have truly experienced their music. Would it enhance the knowledge of the band to see them live? I suppose, to some degree. But, I don't think seeing them live today is anything like seeing them live in the early eighties. I can never have that experience, so I am left with what I have.

P.S. I would agree with the statements made about the Beatles. There is no 20 year old who can say that they were the biggest Beatles fan ever. In order for that to happen, you would have to have lived in England during that time, and in their area... and probably be female. The Beatles were never really a studio band experience, they were all about the face to face live scene. People got their records, then couldn't wait to see them live either in person or on TV. Not a comparison band to relate to NO. New Order never swept a nation, never caused masses to scream until they passed out, and was never in insane demand everywhere they played. I love NO and the Beatles, just please don't mention them in the same post. Never this twane should meet.

Also, Ceremony is an awesome song. I am sure it's great no matter what format it is in. It should have won the best NO track. It is WAY better than Temptation and 2x way better than TPK. I still can't believe TPK even made the top 3.

with all do respect, al, from what i've heard from those who saw the beatles here in the states, you could have seen them at nearly every show over here and never once heard a single note being played over the screaming! in other words, i think a lot of people were there to see john, paul, george and ringo...not to hear their music!

and--wait a minute--i don't understand your argument anyway. considering that the beatles' last concert was at candlestick park in san francisco in 1965, and nearly all of their output was post-1965, to consider oneself 'the biggest beatles fan ever' without ever having seen them in concert is entirely plausible, not to mention probable! who knows what a rousing rendition of 'hey jude' would have sounded like in concert? nobody! so why couldn't someone your age say they're the biggest beatles fan ever?

of course being a fan is about more than 'picking up a piece of vinyl' and so forth, as you said about slipknot. but if you listened to slipknot religiously (god only knows why! :D), you knew their catalogue well and they really meant something to you, then i think this would qualify you to have an informed opinion. since music is so subjective, there is no right or wrong answer in many cases, and i don't think placing fans in a hierarchy based on concert attendance, catalogue completism and so forth does anyone any good, as it creates a competitive atmosphere that takes away from the enjoyment of the music. after all, that's why we're all here, isn't it! :D

and for the record, and i've stated this before, i think of ceremony as primarily a new order song. murv, the cans of worms you've opened up here could consume a herd of cattle!

I think it's a Joy Division demo and a New Order song...Ian Curtis wrote it with the rest of the band, but he didn't publish it. That's the principal reason.

Joy Division = New Order...ummm, I don't think so.

it boils down to opinion, i dont understand why people are getting pissed off? i say its a joy division song they wrote it BUT that is my opinion dont rip me for it and i shouldnt rip anybody for saying they think of it as a new order song we all have valid points

Thinking on this further, I have this to say: This song wouldn't be what it is without both bands. The late JD lyrical spirit, combined with the early NO sound makes this song great. If NO did not pick it up, perfect it, and release it, this song would only be known to a very small group of JD fanatics. So, we benifit from both bands on this one. The lyrics are undeniably Ian's, which make it great lyrically. Musically JD gave it the frame, and NO filled it in. After that, it's all NO's. I am glad the NO took the song and finished it, it's one of my all time favorite songs.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis It's not simply about buying vinyl, but then it's not also about slabs of vinyl meaning anything to me too; there's a whole lot more to this band than just the music.

i didn't state that it was about the 'slabs of vinyl' meaning anything. it's about the band meaning something. i'm sure this is a point we agree upon. you're absolutely right, it is more than about the music! but in my opinion, this experience is mostly a visceral one. in fact, sometimes i find concerts less than good experiences. the pushing and shoving--the girl in front of you swinging her hair in your face. the tallest person in the room deciding to stand directly in front of you. being hit in the nose with a flying elbow by a crazed dancer. i find myself fending off hazards rather than enjoying the show half the time! it's not always this way, but there's the occasional concert where i leave feeling very pissed off (especially the one where i sustained a terrible nosebleed due to a wayward elbow--wasn't even in the centre or anything)!

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by AgentWood> > > > but there's the occasional concert where i leave feeling very pissed off (especially the one where i sustained a terrible nosebleed due to a wayward elbow--wasn't even in the centre or anything)!>

Glasgow Barrowlands, I take it?

actually, the barrowland show was ok. had my 6'3 boyfriend there to watch out for me! there was a crush, but i can handle those. did keep getting a girl's hair in my mouth, though, but that seems to always happen. no, the nosebleed was at, of all things, a shed seven show at london astoria back in 1995!

i used to go into mosh pits and such at full force when i was a sprightly teenager, but i'm an elderly 28-year-old now and i just can't take it anymore. i just like to dance around without getting maimed. the opposite was when i saw spiritualized at shepherd's bush empire and everyone stood there like pod people. weird, but fitting.

fuck me, i've just read all 7 pages of this bastardin' post, and all i can say is:

"does anyone have an overhead clothes rack?"

it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..

well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.

[its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Sean Komakino> it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..> > well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.> > [its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Actually, from where I'm sitting, it appears to me that the people who prefer Joy Division to New Order are the ones who can't look at this objectively. They've read the writing credits on a NEW ORDER single, and that's their level. Fact. To think, that I actually heard this record before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye .. dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The question, however, wasn't 'who wrote this' but more 'who this PRIMARILY belongs to'.

Still, it's really nice to have an 18 year old put his two'penneth in. But please don't start calling people [ahem] 'twits', sunshine. Some of us will have your arm off so much as look at you. And that, my friend is a fact, twat.

Good shout Al' kids these days aint got a clue, let alone respect for their elders.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Sean Komakino> it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..> > well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.> > [its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Actually, from where I'm sitting, it appears to me that the people who prefer Joy Division to New Order are the ones who can't look at this objectively. They've read the writing credits on a NEW ORDER single, and that's their level. Fact. To think, that I actually heard this record before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye .. dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The question, however, wasn't 'who wrote this' but more 'who this PRIMARILY belongs to'.

it was written by joy division, therefore it belongs to them...i didn't know i had to spell it out that much...

Still, it's really nice to have an 18 year old put his two'penneth in. But please don't start calling people [ahem] 'twits', sunshine. Some of us will have your arm off so much as look at you. And that, my friend is a fact, twat.

yeah, yeah, twit.

The most objective way to look at this is giving both bands their due. The song belongs to NO, they released it first, they honed it. But, no one should deny the presence of Ian's lyrics - which give the song it's spirit. NO would not have the song they have without JD (Ian) creating it. I don't feel NO would have created this song from the ground up without Ian. That's where the JD credit ends and the NO credit begins. NO took a raw song, a diamond in the rough, and polished it into one of the best songs of all time. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.

P.S. The only twats are those who want to give one band all the credit for something that clearly is not that cut and dried.

Originally posted by AgentWood with all do respect, al, from what i've heard from those who saw the beatles here in the states, you could have seen them at nearly every show over here and never once heard a single note being played over the screaming! in other words, i think a lot of people were there to see john, paul, george and ringo...not to hear their music!and--wait a minute--i don't understand your argument anyway. considering that the beatles' last concert was at candlestick park in san francisco in 1965, and nearly all of their output was post-1965, to consider oneself 'the biggest beatles fan ever' without ever having seen them in concert is entirely plausible, not to mention probable! who knows what a rousing rendition of 'hey jude' would have sounded like in concert? nobody! so why couldn't someone your age say they're the biggest beatles fan ever?of course being a fan is about more than 'picking up a piece of vinyl' and so forth, as you said about slipknot. but if you listened to slipknot religiously (god only knows why! :D), you knew their catalogue well and they really meant something to you, then i think this would qualify you to have an informed opinion. since music is so subjective, there is no right or wrong answer in many cases, and i don't think placing fans in a hierarchy based on concert attendance, catalogue completism and so forth does anyone any good, as it creates a competitive atmosphere that takes away from the enjoyment of the music. after all, that's why we're all here, isn't it! :Dand for the record, and i've stated this before, i think of ceremony as primarily a new order song. murv, the cans of worms you've opened up here could consume a herd of cattle!

err the candlestick park gig was in 66, but thats a different matter.

if people are fed up with the thread - stop reading it!

it is still getting posts & so there is no reason to close it.

i only got into ceremony after seeing it live, always skipped it on substance & havent had a reccard player for a bit so the 7" & 12"'s both remained in their sleeves.

new order are one of the reasons i want to get a reccard player now to listen to ceremony & temptation on 7", tpk on 12" etc

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> > P.S. The only twats are those who want to give one band all the credit for something that clearly is not that cut and dried.

You've changed your tune - you originally said, "New Order played it EXACTLY like JD did on Still. Of course it's a JD song. They didn't change it at all."

Nish credit for New Order whatsoever.

I guess they did change it - my opinion has evolved through many pages and days of debate. I still maintain that the foundation of the song has remained the same. NO just put up some pictures and hung curtains on an already completed house.

Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.

If only Ann Landers was still alive, she would know what to do

Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.

Bollocks to 'jeeves' he aint street....everyone i know(who likes/loves/knows 'Joy Division/New Order(and thats alot of lads/students/pissheads and music buffs...like myself) class it as their song/tune...say what you want, but a little vote involving 80-90 people dont mean a thing, so dont kid your-self. Regards.

Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood > Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit> Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.

Bollocks to 'jeeves' he aint street....everyone i know(who likes/loves/knows 'Joy Division/New Order(and thats alot of lads/students/pissheads and music buffs...like myself) class it as their song/tune...say what you want, but a little vote involving 80-90 people dont mean a thing, so dont kid your-self. Regards.

Class it as who's song?

JD wrote it. NO re-wrote a bit of it & released it. It is known as a NO song, which is fine by me. If pushed in a poll like this though, I vote for JD.

But it really doesn't matter a gr8 deal.

Why is this poll 8 pages long???? Is it really that important, I mean c'mon people! 'Ceremony' may be a hell of a track (and probably it is too), but it's so easy to solve really. 'Ceremony' was work in progress in the time the group was named Joy Division, and they changed some things in the song in the time they were named New Order, but I (as well as they) can't help but feel it's the same family, so to speak. A better idea would be to start a poll with the question if a band should change its name after a member leaves or dies.

If you listen to the demo by JD, it's so close to the finished NO version that I'd have to say JD was easily the primary author.

80% Joy Division

20% New order

If you listen carefully you'll hear Al's blood boiling.

bristol uni? thats a bit posh innit?

"Ceremony" is a JD song. No doubt about it. "511" should have been titled "610"... since this song is on "Still" (wheareas "In a lonely Place" doesn't appear in any JD album : according to me, the excerpt in "Retro" doesn't count because "Retro" is not an album ! So I consider "In a lonely Place" is a NO song).

Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT "Ceremony" is a JD song. No doubt about it. "511" should have been titled "610"... since this song is on "Still" (wheareas "In a lonely Place" doesn't appear in any JD album : according to me, the excerpt in "Retro" doesn't count because "Retro" is not an album ! So I consider "In a lonely Place" is a NO song).

You know how to express my ideas very well.Very wise words. I agree completely with you.Ceremony by New Order is similar to Joy Division's.But New Order wrote a different In a Lonely Place using Ian Curtis lyrics. Just one more question : Which do you prefer Joy Division, New Order or both ?

As concerns "Ceremony", I prefer the NO version : it is more accomplished. If you mean which band do I prefer : JD !!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT As concerns "Ceremony", I prefer the NO version : it is more accomplished. If you mean which band do I prefer : JD !!!!!!!!

My thoughts were right

Hi Al,

I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.

If Ceremony was written when they were JoyDivision then by the law of language it is "primarily" a JD song ;)

I suppose aint any more though since NewOrder gave it a spring clean!

So after all this... Bernard Sumner is right.. its half and half :D

Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Hi Al,I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.

Indeed, I made a mistake when talking about "Retro". Of course, I meant "Head & Shoulders"... which is a retrospective according to me, not an album (in comparison with "U.P." or "Closer"). The version of "IALP" in "H&S" is a demo, whereas JD played "Ceremony" live ("Still") as a song of their repertoire (even though one can argue about the fact that it's not complete on "Still" !).

Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Hi Al,I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.

Indeed, I made a mistake when talking about "Retro". Of course, I meant "Head & Shoulders"... which is a retrospective according to me, not an album (in comparison with "U.P." or "Closer"). The version of "IALP" in "H&S" is a demo, whereas JD played "Ceremony" live ("Still") as a song of their repertoire (even though one can argue about the fact that it's not complete on "Still" !).

Hi

I am furious with IALP cut version in this boxset.

You guys will probably stone me for this, but I say New Order because they ARE Joy Division. Well, minus Ian and plus Gillian. And then minus Gillian again. They were also the first to professionally record it (technically), and they own the rights to it. :) Or so I'm told.

wont get stoned by a lot of us here for siding in the new order camp on this one!

in the end... we are all fans of both bands so why laddys should we bicker???

FORUM HUG**