209 replies · 4,174 views
106 votes · voting closed
Originally posted by Sean Komakino it was written by joy division, therefore it belongs to them...i didn't know i had to spell it out that much...
Ah, the innocence of yoof. Bless.
yeah, yeah, twit.
Now, now, sonny, you're messing with bigger boys here, so mind your manners, there's a good little chap.
Like I said, twat.
The most objective way to look at this is giving both bands their due. The song belongs to NO, they released it first, they honed it. But, no one should deny the presence of Ian's lyrics - which give the song it's spirit. NO would not have the song they have without JD (Ian) creating it. I don't feel NO would have created this song from the ground up without Ian. That's where the JD credit ends and the NO credit begins. NO took a raw song, a diamond in the rough, and polished it into one of the best songs of all time. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.
P.S. The only twats are those who want to give one band all the credit for something that clearly is not that cut and dried.
Originally posted by Wolfmann P.S. The only twats are those who want to give one band all the credit for something that clearly is not that cut and dried.
You've changed your tune - you originally said, "New Order played it EXACTLY like JD did on Still. Of course it's a JD song. They didn't change it at all."
Nish credit for New Order whatsoever.
Originally posted by AgentWood with all do respect, al, from what i've heard from those who saw the beatles here in the states, you could have seen them at nearly every show over here and never once heard a single note being played over the screaming! in other words, i think a lot of people were there to see john, paul, george and ringo...not to hear their music!and--wait a minute--i don't understand your argument anyway. considering that the beatles' last concert was at candlestick park in san francisco in 1965, and nearly all of their output was post-1965, to consider oneself 'the biggest beatles fan ever' without ever having seen them in concert is entirely plausible, not to mention probable! who knows what a rousing rendition of 'hey jude' would have sounded like in concert? nobody! so why couldn't someone your age say they're the biggest beatles fan ever?of course being a fan is about more than 'picking up a piece of vinyl' and so forth, as you said about slipknot. but if you listened to slipknot religiously (god only knows why! :D), you knew their catalogue well and they really meant something to you, then i think this would qualify you to have an informed opinion. since music is so subjective, there is no right or wrong answer in many cases, and i don't think placing fans in a hierarchy based on concert attendance, catalogue completism and so forth does anyone any good, as it creates a competitive atmosphere that takes away from the enjoyment of the music. after all, that's why we're all here, isn't it! :Dand for the record, and i've stated this before, i think of ceremony as primarily a new order song. murv, the cans of worms you've opened up here could consume a herd of cattle!
err the candlestick park gig was in 66, but thats a different matter.
if people are fed up with the thread - stop reading it!
it is still getting posts & so there is no reason to close it.
i only got into ceremony after seeing it live, always skipped it on substance & havent had a reccard player for a bit so the 7" & 12"'s both remained in their sleeves.
new order are one of the reasons i want to get a reccard player now to listen to ceremony & temptation on 7", tpk on 12" etc
Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> > P.S. The only twats are those who want to give one band all the credit for something that clearly is not that cut and dried.
You've changed your tune - you originally said, "New Order played it EXACTLY like JD did on Still. Of course it's a JD song. They didn't change it at all."
Nish credit for New Order whatsoever.
I guess they did change it - my opinion has evolved through many pages and days of debate. I still maintain that the foundation of the song has remained the same. NO just put up some pictures and hung curtains on an already completed house.
Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.
Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.
Bollocks to 'jeeves' he aint street....everyone i know(who likes/loves/knows 'Joy Division/New Order(and thats alot of lads/students/pissheads and music buffs...like myself) class it as their song/tune...say what you want, but a little vote involving 80-90 people dont mean a thing, so dont kid your-self. Regards.
Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood > Originally posted by Atrocity Exhibit> Why don't we go to askjeeves.com and ask the man himself. If he doesn't know, then no-one does.
Bollocks to 'jeeves' he aint street....everyone i know(who likes/loves/knows 'Joy Division/New Order(and thats alot of lads/students/pissheads and music buffs...like myself) class it as their song/tune...say what you want, but a little vote involving 80-90 people dont mean a thing, so dont kid your-self. Regards.
Class it as who's song?
JD wrote it. NO re-wrote a bit of it & released it. It is known as a NO song, which is fine by me. If pushed in a poll like this though, I vote for JD.
But it really doesn't matter a gr8 deal.
Why is this poll 8 pages long???? Is it really that important, I mean c'mon people! 'Ceremony' may be a hell of a track (and probably it is too), but it's so easy to solve really. 'Ceremony' was work in progress in the time the group was named Joy Division, and they changed some things in the song in the time they were named New Order, but I (as well as they) can't help but feel it's the same family, so to speak. A better idea would be to start a poll with the question if a band should change its name after a member leaves or dies.
If you listen to the demo by JD, it's so close to the finished NO version that I'd have to say JD was easily the primary author.
"Ceremony" is a JD song. No doubt about it. "511" should have been titled "610"... since this song is on "Still" (wheareas "In a lonely Place" doesn't appear in any JD album : according to me, the excerpt in "Retro" doesn't count because "Retro" is not an album ! So I consider "In a lonely Place" is a NO song).
Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT "Ceremony" is a JD song. No doubt about it. "511" should have been titled "610"... since this song is on "Still" (wheareas "In a lonely Place" doesn't appear in any JD album : according to me, the excerpt in "Retro" doesn't count because "Retro" is not an album ! So I consider "In a lonely Place" is a NO song).
You know how to express my ideas very well.Very wise words. I agree completely with you.Ceremony by New Order is similar to Joy Division's.But New Order wrote a different In a Lonely Place using Ian Curtis lyrics. Just one more question : Which do you prefer Joy Division, New Order or both ?
As concerns "Ceremony", I prefer the NO version : it is more accomplished. If you mean which band do I prefer : JD !!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT As concerns "Ceremony", I prefer the NO version : it is more accomplished. If you mean which band do I prefer : JD !!!!!!!!
My thoughts were right 
Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT "Ceremony" is a JD song. No doubt about it. "511" should have been titled "610"... since this song is on "Still" (wheareas "In a lonely Place" doesn't appear in any JD album : according to me, the excerpt in "Retro" doesn't count because "Retro" is not an album ! So I consider "In a lonely Place" is a NO song).
Er, IALP was actually on Heart & Soul.
Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Hi Al,I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.
I thought that initially, but he does start that IALP doesn't appear on any JD album. Which it blatantly does. Whether you like the version, or you don't, it's still there.
If Ceremony was written when they were JoyDivision then by the law of language it is "primarily" a JD song ;)
I suppose aint any more though since NewOrder gave it a spring clean!
So after all this... Bernard Sumner is right.. its half and half :D
Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Hi Al,I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.
Indeed, I made a mistake when talking about "Retro". Of course, I meant "Head & Shoulders"... which is a retrospective according to me, not an album (in comparison with "U.P." or "Closer"). The version of "IALP" in "H&S" is a demo, whereas JD played "Ceremony" live ("Still") as a song of their repertoire (even though one can argue about the fact that it's not complete on "Still" !).
Originally posted by Pascal CHAMPAVERT > Originally posted by Love Will Tear Us Apart Hi Al,I think he confused Retro instead of Heart and Soul.
Indeed, I made a mistake when talking about "Retro". Of course, I meant "Head & Shoulders"... which is a retrospective according to me, not an album (in comparison with "U.P." or "Closer"). The version of "IALP" in "H&S" is a demo, whereas JD played "Ceremony" live ("Still") as a song of their repertoire (even though one can argue about the fact that it's not complete on "Still" !).
Hi
I am furious with IALP cut version in this boxset.
You guys will probably stone me for this, but I say New Order because they ARE Joy Division. Well, minus Ian and plus Gillian. And then minus Gillian again. They were also the first to professionally record it (technically), and they own the rights to it. :) Or so I'm told.
9 pages
45 minutes of me life wasted away before ma poor wee eyes.
Typical fuckin Aussie stirring up shit then disappearing, where is ole Murv these days;)
I couldn't let this thread waste away, could I?
For those who think it's a Joy Division song fair enough. For those who think it's a New Order song fair enough.
Personally I regard it as a New Order song:p
