Ceremony ; primarily JD or NO

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> > > Are you living your life vicariously through your "Mrs"? I don't remember you being asked "How many times have the people around you seen NO".> > P.S. Is "My Mrs" referring to your wife or mother?

My Mrs is my better half. It's basic fcuking Ingerlish. Please, keep up. ;)

And I'm hardly living my life through my Mrs. But the point I was trying to make was that Teleharmonium thinks that listening to live bootlegs somehow helps bolster his argument, whereas my Mrs has actually attended more New Order gigs than he could ever hope to attend, yet really has no idea that the writing credentials for Ceremony are down as Joy Division.

But which one's the 'ardcore fan - the armchair supporter, or the individual who gets off their arse to follow New Order worldwide? But then, that's for another debate.

Point taken. I know NO through their studio music, not seeing them in person too. I would never presume to know more about them then I can glean from their studio releases and the few boots I have. I would really like to meet them someday and see them play live. I have been a lover of their music for 19 years now, but I have never been able to see them. I did make a promise to myself, if they come to the US again - I will see them. I relate to them as a studio band, I love their studio work. Their live stuff is interesting, but no where near the caliber of their studio work. I consider myself a NO purist, I don't care for their live sound, and I do not care for remixes of their original 7's and 12's. I can appreciate how much talent it takes to play electronic music live without taken the easy way out using tapes, but I just don't get a lot from the live sound. In my eyes, NO is the best in the studio working on original material, no matter how many times I see them live, they will always be a great studio band.

A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

is there gonna be a fight, cmon wheres the agro whoa..

for your facts ceromony is a cure song given to new order through jd when they were all hanging out together having boy gang bangs:)

It's a Joy Division song!!!!!!!!!!!!! and for all thoses ardcore New Order fanatics that disagree..........take a fuckin walk!

Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

By the way i'm not having a dig at anyone in particular, just putting my point across. Cheers.

Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

Please, don't call seeing NO live "the real thing" because it's not. Not even for NO it's not. They prefer the studio because to them, that is the real thing. I am sure seeing them live is really cool, if they don't happen to suck that night. I would love to see them, but it will still never compare to hearing them at their best on studio releases.

Originally posted by Wolfmann > Originally posted by Dufford Charleywood> A most enjoyable thread.....Listerning to tapes in your bedroom & wanking does'nt substitute for the real thing' It might have been demo'd by 'Joy Division' but the tune we all love and know is 'NEW ORDER' and what a fucking large tune it is ! RESPECT !

Please, don't call seeing NO live "the real thing" because it's not. Not even for NO it's not. They prefer the studio because to them, that is the real thing. I am sure seeing them live is really cool, if they don't happen to suck that night. I would love to see them, but it will still never compare to hearing them at their best on studio releases. Abosolute Crap'.....No one enjoys playing live more than Hookey.....Fuck me' why form a band if you dont like playing to an audience....? Why pick up an instrument in the first place....? Wolfie your talking outta your arse geezer.Sitting at home listerning to them on LP or what-ever, does not come near to the buzz and feeling i' have felt(and many thousands of others) of seeing them in a club, hall or field, in the rain,wind or sunshine. Memories....Special memories, thats what it means to me.....do you remember every time you play them at home...? Get real and see them live a few times O.K.

Have to agree with you there Al - was never that impressed with Ceremony off Substance, but when I heard it live - WOW - what a difference. Remember Ally Pally being a great example.

(Oh, and I had to watch them from the side of the sound desk as the wife nearly got crushed during the opening lines of Regret :( )

Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

Amen!

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Ceremony is primarily a fookin' top song. I trust we all agree on this one.

i think we should just close out this thread with this wise statement.

...after i've said this. i feel damn lucky that my favourite band is a recent one, because it means i've been able to see NO live several times. however, i don't think one has to see a band or artist live to truly get the 'feel' of that artist, or that seeing them live makes me more of a fan than someone who hasn't seen them live. if that were true, anyone who is a fan of a musician who was in their prime before the 1950s or 1960s would be screwed. billie holliday, robert johnson, enrico caruso: none of these artists can be enjoyed live, and there are very few who can say they saw these artists in person (well, in caruso's case, nobody can say this). in their cases, arguing about how many concerts one has been to simply doesn't work. also, i'm sure that there are people in third world countries, or countries where bands just don't tour, who simply do not have the financial or logistical means to see their favourite musicians live, who are equally as knowledgable or fanatical about their music as someone who has had the privilege to go to concerts. finally, i know people, particularly at the radio station i used to work at, who went to concerts every night and have seen certain bands dozens of times. often, this was out of habit rather than a particular affinity for the band in question. and does seeing a band ten times, but from the top row of a massive stadium, constitute a closer experience with that group than watching the video, complete with close-ups, a few months later? seeing new order is not like this, but in the cases of some artists who are adored by others, this may be the only way to see them. my point being, while seeing a band live is a unique experience that is certainly different from listening to recordings, it is not always possible and sometimes it is inherently impossible to have this experience. therefore, a person's commitment for and knowledge of a musician shouldn't be gauged by how many times they have seen them in concert. perhaps making this argument is futile, as disagreements in this thread have become ridiculously personal and i'm sure someone will become haughty while reading this. i dread becoming dragged into this thing, but i just can't hold back anymore. c'est la vie. and as our benny said, ceremony is a top song....:)

its a pet shop boys tune and thats all she wrote:)

I never made a statement that I am the biggest NO fan. The biggest NO fan would spend $500 to fly somewhere just to see them, even though they have seen them 5 times already this year. I would never do that for any band ever. Even when I was younger without a family I would never do that. Would I drive 5 hours to see NO? Probably. So, I love NO and they have been my favorite band for 19 years. I have read a lot about them. I have truly experienced their music. Would it enhance the knowledge of the band to see them live? I suppose, to some degree. But, I don't think seeing them live today is anything like seeing them live in the early eighties. I can never have that experience, so I am left with what I have.

P.S. I would agree with the statements made about the Beatles. There is no 20 year old who can say that they were the biggest Beatles fan ever. In order for that to happen, you would have to have lived in England during that time, and in their area... and probably be female. The Beatles were never really a studio band experience, they were all about the face to face live scene. People got their records, then couldn't wait to see them live either in person or on TV. Not a comparison band to relate to NO. New Order never swept a nation, never caused masses to scream until they passed out, and was never in insane demand everywhere they played. I love NO and the Beatles, just please don't mention them in the same post. Never this twane should meet.

Also, Ceremony is an awesome song. I am sure it's great no matter what format it is in. It should have won the best NO track. It is WAY better than Temptation and 2x way better than TPK. I still can't believe TPK even made the top 3.

with all do respect, al, from what i've heard from those who saw the beatles here in the states, you could have seen them at nearly every show over here and never once heard a single note being played over the screaming! in other words, i think a lot of people were there to see john, paul, george and ringo...not to hear their music!

and--wait a minute--i don't understand your argument anyway. considering that the beatles' last concert was at candlestick park in san francisco in 1965, and nearly all of their output was post-1965, to consider oneself 'the biggest beatles fan ever' without ever having seen them in concert is entirely plausible, not to mention probable! who knows what a rousing rendition of 'hey jude' would have sounded like in concert? nobody! so why couldn't someone your age say they're the biggest beatles fan ever?

of course being a fan is about more than 'picking up a piece of vinyl' and so forth, as you said about slipknot. but if you listened to slipknot religiously (god only knows why! :D), you knew their catalogue well and they really meant something to you, then i think this would qualify you to have an informed opinion. since music is so subjective, there is no right or wrong answer in many cases, and i don't think placing fans in a hierarchy based on concert attendance, catalogue completism and so forth does anyone any good, as it creates a competitive atmosphere that takes away from the enjoyment of the music. after all, that's why we're all here, isn't it! :D

and for the record, and i've stated this before, i think of ceremony as primarily a new order song. murv, the cans of worms you've opened up here could consume a herd of cattle!

I think it's a Joy Division demo and a New Order song...Ian Curtis wrote it with the rest of the band, but he didn't publish it. That's the principal reason.

Joy Division = New Order...ummm, I don't think so.

it boils down to opinion, i dont understand why people are getting pissed off? i say its a joy division song they wrote it BUT that is my opinion dont rip me for it and i shouldnt rip anybody for saying they think of it as a new order song we all have valid points

Thinking on this further, I have this to say: This song wouldn't be what it is without both bands. The late JD lyrical spirit, combined with the early NO sound makes this song great. If NO did not pick it up, perfect it, and release it, this song would only be known to a very small group of JD fanatics. So, we benifit from both bands on this one. The lyrics are undeniably Ian's, which make it great lyrically. Musically JD gave it the frame, and NO filled it in. After that, it's all NO's. I am glad the NO took the song and finished it, it's one of my all time favorite songs.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis It's not simply about buying vinyl, but then it's not also about slabs of vinyl meaning anything to me too; there's a whole lot more to this band than just the music.

i didn't state that it was about the 'slabs of vinyl' meaning anything. it's about the band meaning something. i'm sure this is a point we agree upon. you're absolutely right, it is more than about the music! but in my opinion, this experience is mostly a visceral one. in fact, sometimes i find concerts less than good experiences. the pushing and shoving--the girl in front of you swinging her hair in your face. the tallest person in the room deciding to stand directly in front of you. being hit in the nose with a flying elbow by a crazed dancer. i find myself fending off hazards rather than enjoying the show half the time! it's not always this way, but there's the occasional concert where i leave feeling very pissed off (especially the one where i sustained a terrible nosebleed due to a wayward elbow--wasn't even in the centre or anything)!

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by AgentWood> > > > but there's the occasional concert where i leave feeling very pissed off (especially the one where i sustained a terrible nosebleed due to a wayward elbow--wasn't even in the centre or anything)!>

Glasgow Barrowlands, I take it?

actually, the barrowland show was ok. had my 6'3 boyfriend there to watch out for me! there was a crush, but i can handle those. did keep getting a girl's hair in my mouth, though, but that seems to always happen. no, the nosebleed was at, of all things, a shed seven show at london astoria back in 1995!

i used to go into mosh pits and such at full force when i was a sprightly teenager, but i'm an elderly 28-year-old now and i just can't take it anymore. i just like to dance around without getting maimed. the opposite was when i saw spiritualized at shepherd's bush empire and everyone stood there like pod people. weird, but fitting.

fuck me, i've just read all 7 pages of this bastardin' post, and all i can say is:

"does anyone have an overhead clothes rack?"

it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..

well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.

[its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Sean Komakino> it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..> > well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.> > [its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Actually, from where I'm sitting, it appears to me that the people who prefer Joy Division to New Order are the ones who can't look at this objectively. They've read the writing credits on a NEW ORDER single, and that's their level. Fact. To think, that I actually heard this record before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye .. dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The question, however, wasn't 'who wrote this' but more 'who this PRIMARILY belongs to'.

Still, it's really nice to have an 18 year old put his two'penneth in. But please don't start calling people [ahem] 'twits', sunshine. Some of us will have your arm off so much as look at you. And that, my friend is a fact, twat.

Good shout Al' kids these days aint got a clue, let alone respect for their elders.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Sean Komakino> it seems that the people who prefer New Order to Joy Division, cant be arsed looking at this objectivly and the facts..it seems to me, that they cant handle their "favorite new order song" being actually..a Joy Division song..> > well tough..it is, and nothing you people say can change that [fact]. Its a Joy Division song to JD fans..and a New Order song to NO fans..shame it has to be that way and the truth cant be taken.> > [its a fucking JD song you twits.]

Actually, from where I'm sitting, it appears to me that the people who prefer Joy Division to New Order are the ones who can't look at this objectively. They've read the writing credits on a NEW ORDER single, and that's their level. Fact. To think, that I actually heard this record before you were even a twinkle in your mother's eye .. dear, oh dear, oh dear.

The question, however, wasn't 'who wrote this' but more 'who this PRIMARILY belongs to'.

it was written by joy division, therefore it belongs to them...i didn't know i had to spell it out that much...

Still, it's really nice to have an 18 year old put his two'penneth in. But please don't start calling people [ahem] 'twits', sunshine. Some of us will have your arm off so much as look at you. And that, my friend is a fact, twat.

yeah, yeah, twit.