Ceremony ; primarily JD or NO

Al wrote: "And as for you saying that New Order could never hope to write such a song is utterly beyond me. "

If you think NO have ever written a song as good as Ceremony, then we have a legitimate difference of opinion there. What song (s) would you put in that category ?

"Of course, Ian wrote absolutely everything by himself, didn't he? Well, didn't he? "

Of course not, we all know this and nobody has suggested otherwise.

" Seems to me that most of my knowledge has been garnered from personal experiences over 20 years though. Whereas you've come to this a little late and are attempting to repeat one fact you've learned, ad nauseum."

I've liked them since 84 and been what I consider a fan since about 87/88. That's a little late ? I went through a period where I didn't listen to much else and have worn out many cassettes from my collection of at least a hundred live tapes, which I painstakingly put together back when such things were accomplished with letters, want lists on paper, and perserverance, not just downloading an MP3. I'm not trying to impress anybody; nonetheless this is my personal experience and I value it as what it is. Tell me, what one fact have I supposedly been repeating ?

ok, this thread is getting hurtful and even a little personal and really, at the end of the day, what does this matter?

i mean, it looks like a battle of who is "right" and we can argue this till we are blue in the face, but at the end of the day, no one is "right." we just have individual opinions of what think of when we hear ceremony and leave it at that. someone lock up this thread please...or never bring it up again.

Originally posted by Isamu

wow - is that post primarily a JD post, or a NO post?

Originally posted by Isamu

Isamu, did you nick that from George Michael`s website?

Al wrote: "Didn't someone earlier make a comment about armchair fans? You've listened to lots of tapes? Wow! Have you never actually seen them live? You haven't said."

No, I haven't seen them, I probably would have mentioned it if I had. Nice of you to ask. Naturally, I would have liked to have seen them, but they've never played anywhere around where I have lived at the time, and in the past, particularly my teens when they were touring more often, I didn't have the means to go globetrotting to attend concerts (oh well, poor me). Still, I don't think it is a universal rule that one has to hear a musician live in person in order to appreciate them. Seeing as I've heard them playing live innumerable times, on tape rather than in person, it's kind of an existential line you're drawing, isn't it ?

"I don't think New Order have anything in their live set to rival Ceremony. Read the top 5 thread .......(snip) so obviously the majority DO consider that New Order have produced better work, and bar perhaps the latter I'll agree that Temptation and Perfect Kiss are of an equabl quality to Ceremony - I've done enough gigs to be able to work out which ones are popular with the majority, and which tracks are not. And those three have always, and will always be, stand-out tracks."

I agree about Ceremony, and I have no problem with other people liking other tracks better or it being down in polls. Polls don't really do much for me though, I just don't value other peoples' opinions that much unless there is a special reason to.

"At the time of Curtis's death, Ceremony was but a work in progress. Thank heavens New Order applied the finishing touches."

What finishing touches would those have been exactly ? You've never backed that up with anything or been specific.

Apart from changing the guitar riff, the bassline and the drum pattern ?

what about those things are you saying were changed, Benny, specifically ?

Originally posted by teleharmonium what about those things are you saying were changed, Benny, specifically ?

Specifically, when it was first played by New Order and later subsequently recorded by New Order Barney changed the timing on the guitar chords used as the main guitar riff from that played by Joy Division. Hooky changed the bass middle eight, and also the timing of the final bass riff. Steve changed the drum pattern throughout the song.

Al, I don't understand your criteria for what makes one a 'hardcore' fan, but I can't say it makes much difference to me, so no need to elaborate. You have taken to the much maligned habit of 'repeating the same fact over and over again ad nauseam', in this case the fact that I haven't seen the band live, but I don't share your view that it is essential to do so in order to appreciate them, it's not like they're the Grateful Dead (thank god).

Benny wrote :"Barney changed the timing on the guitar chords used as the main guitar riff from that played by Joy Division. Hooky changed the bass middle eight, and also the timing of the final bass riff. Steve changed the drum pattern throughout the song"

The NO single of Ceremony has the same guitar part with those chords double tracked or panned and delayed so that it echoes just after the first one, but it's the same part, not really a difference in the arrangement, more of a production touch. Barney frequenly double tracked guitar parts in the studio in the JD days in cases where he was the only one playing when they did the song live (ex. Dead Souls, Atrocity Exhibition, Colony). In the JD demo he plays the opening riff with an A near the end, this differs from the NO single but I think it was a one time thing, IIRC the Birmingham soundcheck tape has him playing it the same way he did in pretty much every other time whether JD or NO. I haven't noticed a difference in the bass part between the JD and NO single or early live recordings, but I would have to listen closely again to see if I can tell what you mean by the middle 8. Did you mean just before the guitar major arpeggio comes in and the vocals go to 'watching forever...' (I consider this the bridge)? I definitely do not hear any difference in the drums. There is a little delay effect with a gate on the toms and snare on the NO studio version which is not present on any of the JD versions, but it's also not there on any NO live recordings and is clearly something added as a production technique.

Originally posted by teleharmonium ...I just don't value other peoples' opinions that much unless there is a special reason to.

?

Can I just say

"In a Lonely Place"

Primarily a Joy Division song or primarily a New Order song?

(JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Merry Xmas

Johnny Giles wrote: "Now you're reaching new limits. Don't they have an airport near you? NO played 4 gigs on the West coast of USA/Canada in 2001..."

Why yes, there is an airport near me. That particular excursion would have been about $1000 US total to attend one of the shows, with air fare, a cheap hotel and a ticket. If I had the time and money to do things like that I would more likely spend a little more and go to Europe on the cheap; as it is, my financial priorities lean toward the many expenses involved in my own musical ventures, with record collecting a second to that, and live concerts a remote third, more of an occasional treat. While I don't do much of that now, I happen to have seen some pretty incredible shows in the past for a person of my age, so I don't really defer to anybody in terms of the overall quality of what I've seen. Miles Davis, Sun Ra, the Residents, Sonic Youth before they were 'big', Red Crayola, AMM, La Monte Young, Cecil Taylor, also many other jazz usicians come to mind, and I don't think I paid more than $20 for any of those.

"You equate listening to live tapes in your bedroom - with all your trusted JD text books to hand for erotic pleasure no doubt - as comparable to the real thing. Hmm, an interesting stance, particularly as you aint done the real thing to make that comparison"

well there's no need to be a rude jackass about it. The hell with that smug clique attitide, you don't have a monopoly on appreciating music. "He Johnny alone understood this, he had intuitively grasped every nook and cranny of their psyches..." yeah right.

Originally posted by Johnny Giles > Originally posted by teleharmonium> > > No, I haven't seen them, I probably would have mentioned it if I had. Nice of you to ask. Naturally, I would have liked to have seen them, but they've never played anywhere around where I have lived at the time, and in the past, particularly my teens when they were touring more often, I didn't have the means to go globetrotting to attend concerts (oh well, poor me). Still, I don't think it is a universal rule that one has to hear a musician live in person in order to appreciate them. Seeing as I've heard them playing live innumerable times, on tape rather than in person, it's kind of an existential line you're drawing, isn't it ?>

Now you're reaching new limits. Don't they have an airport near you? NO played 4 gigs on the West coast of USA/Canada in 2001, where you could have seen them play both Atmosphere & LWTUA. Even New Dawn Fades if you stayed till the end of Moby's set in LA. But not Ceremony ironically. We bumped into the band at Vancouver airport & were told by Barney that 'they don't really know Ceremony in the States'!, maybe cos it's not on Best of? dunno. You equate listening to live tapes in your bedroom - with all your trusted JD text books to hand for erotic pleasure no doubt - as comparable to the real thing. Hmm, an interesting stance, particularly as you aint done the real thing to make that comparison. I'd be interested in your view after 60 mins down the front at a gig with Al, 445, Shug etc. I know this is not directly linked to the thread but when I read such naive comments I can't let them go. The 3 11 & 5 16 titles provide the answers which you are seeking, the answer to the *primarily* question. Still, you can replay the debate as often as you like when the chrods kick in of this track there wont be many at the gig thinking JD.

Shouldn't you be on the beach?

Al, I've listened to the song many, many times, as most of us would say I expect. As I play music and have become a pretty decent recording engineer in the last few years I tend to look at things in a 'how was it made' mentality lately, in many cases, but you are quite right that it certainly isn't equivalent to or a substitute for just listening to it for pleasure, which I did first countless times in this case. They've been part of the soundtrack of my life through thick and thin. This thread has prompted me to listen to it more times in comparison mode, and I just got both original 12" versions in the mail so I was comparing them to each other and to the 3 JD versions (previously I only had it on the copper 7" and the track on Substance, as far as the NO studio versions). I don't think there is anything wrong with listening in a analytical way sometimes, as long as it's not the only way. I've always been one to listen closely, I don't do 'background music', if I want to listen to something I listen to it and don't talk over it. Sometimes people that come over don't know how to react to that, but then I just get them stoned and play it loud on my killer tube hi fi and it all works out. JD/NO songs (especially the older ones) are funny that way because they are usually so well put together with few parts that they are sort of a puzzle and a demonstration of 'less is more'. Anyway, I really don't mean to try and convert you guys to my way of thinking, I have no problem with you guys thinking of it as a NO song even as I disagree as to that categorization. I doubt the band agonized over it as much as we have, I think it was more like 'well, we need some songs, these 2 kick ass and they're still fresh so we'll keep them and write some new ones that one of us can sing'.

No offence, but you've got little chance of [ahem] 'converting' us 'guys' to your way of thinking. You're a rank amateur compared to some of us, when all is said and done. It's just a shame you can't actually see that.

Tis the season to be jolly so have a good one anyways.

Jarvo if you need the knitted hood the missus says its yours, all those gigs mate... you`re a real pro gig bloke, hats and hoods off to you sir Jarvo.. he of the pro squad

all i can say about this thread now is wow. i'm surprised i haven't heard this yet:

'i've been a fan since december 3, 1981' 'well, i've been a fan since december 2, 1981...so there!'

just get out yer measuring tapes, boys....

well, i hope you all had a merry christmas in between all this infighting. listening to ceremony.

Originally posted by AgentWood all i can say about this thread now is wow. i'm surprised i haven't heard this yet:'i've been a fan since december 3, 1981''well, i've been a fan since december 2, 1981...so there!'just get out yer measuring tapes, boys....

come on, this is enough. someone lock up this thread or let it die because it's getting stoopider by the minute.

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by teleharmonium> "No, I haven't seen them

My Mrs has seen NO live 24 times, and she ain't even a fan. Well, not a hardcore one, as such. Just as passenger. But, if I were to ask her - 'Ceremony - primarily JD or NO?' she'd say "New Order", without question.

If you were now to tell her that JD originally penned said song she'd be gob-smacked. But, primarily, to her, and remember she's probably just a little more hardcore than you are (after all, she's seen this band from LA to Vancouver to Paris to Cologne to Stockholm to Sydney to Perth AND she's even on the latest New Order DVD) she would still define it as a New Order song, PRIMARILY.

Like I said, it's down to personal experience, and not simply down to boring people with writing credits.

Each. To. Their. Own.

Are you living your life vicariously through your "Mrs"? I don't remember you being asked "How many times have the people around you seen NO".

P.S. Is "My Mrs" referring to your wife or mother?

hmm, i believe that is called adding context, or using examples to illustrate a point, not rilly living vicariously...

but then you knew that rilly didn't you.