Band most benefited by New Order's influence and accomplishments

Not a Cure fan either, but it should be noted that Hooky has gone on record as admitting that he ripped the "From Safety To Where" bassline off them, whereas the intro to "Sunrise" is incredibly reminiscent of "A Forest", which I guess evens the score up a little. I think each band ripping off the other was a bit of a running joke between them.

My next post I am going to start is going to be called "Rabid Fans Suck". People are always putting their favorite band on some pedastil that other bands can never measure up to. Rabid fans think other bands steal stuff from their band, but their band never does. Every other band like them was influenced by them, but their favorite band somehow grew up through their career in a musical vacuum where they developed everything on their own without outside influence. Other bands suck, their band is the greatest of all time. I could easily go find a good Cure website where they have all kinds of "proof" that New Order ripped off the Cure, and are no where near as good. Some Depeche Mode site that says they are the better band. I could probably find some Joy Division site where they think that NO got all wussy with their dance club music, leaving behind the grittier and darker JD sound. There is always another side to every story. Every band steals material from other bands... it's called "influence" - you should look it up in the dictionary. No band grows up in a musical influence vacuum. NO has ripped off things that they heard from other bands that they liked, just like the Cure, DM, OMD, the Smiths, Violent Femmes, etc... it happens to everyone, there is no way around it. We all learn from each other. The Cure has been a viable band for 25 years, with all kinds of great songs and albums. In some ways The Cure is better than NO, and visa versa. I wouldn't want to be without either one.

Stephenwolf, the fact that you can find people willing to defend Cure's or DM's primacy over NO is neither here nor there (as it isn't either the fact that some people in this Forum, namely me, think that NO are the best band ever). After all you can find people who believe the Earth to be flat or to deny Evolution, but I digress. What it counts is whether by debating we can agree on a measurement of the said bands respective merits. It is clear to me that when NO have borrowed from/being influenced by (an I do agree of course that no music, no manner of art does evolve in the vacuum but rather through cross pollinization so it is a fine line that which separates the plagiarist from the disciple). A work of art means that by rearranging its parts new life is insuflated in the old theme, a plagio (homage???) means the formulaic, vigourless repetition of patterns and structures created by others. In this sense The Cure has not created anything new, anything truly inspired or amazing although they have produced a handful of really good songs. When one listens to P,C & L one listens to a band taking materials from many different origins and contorting them to make them serve new purposes. When one listens to Pornography (or to Music for the Masses for that matter) all one is listening to is the lifeless repetition of old patterns created by others and retuned, rehashed, repackaged.

Originally posted by Budvar Huber Stephenwolf, the fact that you can find people willing to defend Cure's or DM's primacy over NO is neither here nor there (as it isn't either the fact that some people in this Forum, namely me, think that NO are the best band ever). After all you can find people who believe the Earth to be flat or to deny Evolution, but I digress. What it counts is whether by debating we can agree on a measurement of the said bands respective merits. It is clear to me that when NO have borrowed from/being influenced by (an I do agree of course that no music, no manner of art does evolve in the vacuum but rather through cross pollinization so it is a fine line that which separates the plagiarist from the disciple). A work of art means that by rearranging its parts new life is insuflated in the old theme, a plagio (homage???) means the formulaic, vigourless repetition of patterns and structures created by others. In this sense The Cure has not created anything new, anything truly inspired or amazing although they have produced a handful of really good songs. When one listens to P,C & L one listens to a band taking materials from many different origins and contorting them to make them serve new purposes. When one listens to Pornography (or to Music for the Masses for that matter) all one is listening to is the lifeless repetition of old patterns created by others and retuned, rehashed, repackaged.

Bravo Budvar!! Didnt quite understand all that but the phrase "NO are the best band ever" appeared in the post so duly deserves a huge

but i digress.... ;)

Ummm don't you have to be "influenced" by something to "benefit" from it?

If not, than you could claim that all dance music since Blue Monday including Madonna, Jlo etc. "benefitted from NO"

One could also make the argument that because Confusion was Detroit based Hip Hop (one valid way of looking at the song) that NO has also benefitted every Hip Hop artist...

In that case where is PDiddy, Nelly, Madonna etc on the list? Oh and lets not forget Shania Twain...she did dance remixes that would have been impossible without Blue Monday right?

I really think that we are going down a huge rat hole if we cannot show direct influence between NO and the band/Artist....and instead try to make the case for "dance music" was invented by NO so such and such artist benefitted...

Originally posted by Chris Nash Where are 'The Cure' in this poll???

Here,here...The Cure should be top of the poll'

It never ceases to amaze me how much people loathe the Cure. It equally amazes me that people think they didn't make anything different. I remember growing up in the early eighties, in the US, and the Cure was WAY different thatn anything going on... along with JD, NO, and early REM. These bands were all cutting edge in the beginning. Then in the mid eighties they all kind of arrived in the same musical genre in the states... referred to as college radio. This was the early - mid eighties haven for music not classified as POP. I remember hearing some early Cure songs, and I thought they were pretty awesome for their quirky bass lines and drum beats. 10:15 Saturday Night is a great song, as is The Catepillar, Jumping Someone Else's Train, and A Forest... just to name a few. All of them inventive as for as the melding of drum, guitar, and keyboard. NO went a different way with the addition of really awesome simple keyboard notes, and then into the drum n bass thing. Both bands have great bass led songs. As far as techinical ability, I think they are very similar... with NO having a HUGE edge when it comes to the blending of keyboards, which The Cure never really got into.

[Or Frente, who wouldn't exist without the acoustic version of BLT

Frente had a very sucessful album and single before they did BLT - in Australia at least. Most Australians know them for songs other than BLT. The rest of the world doesn't matter anyway, cause it's gonna explode in a reign of terror and disease.

Still tired, YAWN, Bilby

Originally posted by Bilby [Or Frente, who wouldn't exist without the acoustic version of BLTFrente had a very sucessful album and single before they did BLT - in Australia at least. Most Australians know them for songs other than BLT. The rest of the world doesn't matter anyway, cause it's gonna explode in a reign of terror and disease.Still tired,YAWN, Bilby

Frente didn't do squat diddily over in the states. I bet maybe 1 out of 50 people has even heard of them, let alone know a song, or own an album.

Stephen,

I cannot speak for others, only for myself and I can tell you I do not loathe the Cure, I own several of their albums and I listen quite often to "Standing on the beach". They are very dear to me because they are a very important part of the soundtrack to my teenage years when we all dressed in black and wore long coats and 'ats. It was funny back then. Only neither then nor now do I think that they are in the same league with New Order. New Order belongs in with those groups that add something new, something that was not there before them and by doing so push the boundaries of music: Kinks, Doors, Velvet, Pistols.... The Cure have not added anything new. As much as we sometimes berate BM that is a defining moment in popular music, the fusion between rock & dance which New Order started has transformed the way in which we experiment music. Chemical Brothers would not exist without New Order, neither would exist Moby or Massive Attack.

DON,

You're right, I was not very clear yesterday and a lot got lost in translation. However I see my main message did come across

Al,

"Goths were just the Sharons and Traceys of the Indie world"

Superb!

Originally posted by Wolfmann It never ceases to amaze me how much people loathe the Cure. It equally amazes me that people think they didn't make anything different. I remember growing up in the early eighties, in the US, and the Cure was WAY different thatn anything going on... along with JD, NO, and early REM. These bands were all cutting edge in the beginning. Then in the mid eighties they all kind of arrived in the same musical genre in the states... referred to as college radio. This was the early - mid eighties haven for music not classified as POP. I remember hearing some early Cure songs, and I thought they were pretty awesome for their quirky bass lines and drum beats. 10:15 Saturday Night is a great song, as is The Catepillar, Jumping Someone Else's Train, and A Forest... just to name a few. All of them inventive as for as the melding of drum, guitar, and keyboard. NO went a different way with the addition of really awesome simple keyboard notes, and then into the drum n bass thing. Both bands have great bass led songs. As far as techinical ability, I think they are very similar... with NO having a HUGE edge when it comes to the blending of keyboards, which The Cure never really got into.

I am a big Cure fan as well. Maybe I haven't listened to their music for the past few decades, seeing how I'm barely 21, but I do know that they didn't do anything all that original.

Robert's four main influences were Jimi Hendrix, The Sex Pistols, Joy Division, and The Banshees. Now, The Cure pretty much started out as a pop-punk act, then went on tour with The Banshees in 1979. During that time, Robert became attached to the whole doom and gloom style of them, and maybe he was trying to get some from Ms. Siouxsie. Either way, after being on tour with them, The Cure went out and released "Seventeen Seconds", and from there got more and more gloomy with each album. I never thought that these albums were original whatsoever. Joy Division and The Banshees had already beat them to it.

After "Pornography", the original band was going to break up. As a weird act of destruction, Robert stayed with their drummer afterwards and released an insult towards pop music called "Let's Go To Bed" as one final blow.

Strangely enough, the song did well on the pop charts, so the band stayed together. From their, the songs they released only got more and more ridiculous. I myself enjoy their music, but it always seems to mirror whatever The Banshees were doing at the time.

I'm not going to say "who ripped off who" or anything. The point of me writing this is to just show people that The Cure released great music, but were never really that original. That's just my opinion, take it or leave it.

The Cure have nothing to do with New Order. Period. The Cure are just another pretentious British band who began at a similar time to Joy Division. It's about time you septics started listening to reality rather than having everything neatly packaged up in spin and bollocks.

New Order, The Fall, The Smiths, Echo and the Bunnymen = northern bands with vaguely similar backgrounds, same audiences

The Cure = southern band, outsiders in many ways, different audiences

Yeah, I guess I can see where everyone is coming from. I think the Cure did some things that were cool... bass lines, drum beats, and his voice... but I guess they did not really push a genre past it's boundaries into new territory like NO< JD, SP, and S&TB. I can accept that. Hopefully previous posts, like the one above, are not suggesting that Echo should be in the same group as the previous mentioned genre pushers. They were really cool, and I like them, but I never heard an Echo song thinking to myself "wow, how did they ever do that, I have never heard that before".

Of the choices, I would have to go with PSB, especially with their involvement with NO - Story and Johnny & Bernard's ELECTRONIC project.

Although, I would have to agree with a couple of people: there aren't any bands I could think of that made a bigger career of themselves due in part to their involvement with NO.

Originally posted by Budvar Huber

[huge slab of text deleted]

Is there a world shortage of paragraphs or something :)

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> It never ceases to amaze me how much people loathe the Cure.

It's not a case of loathing the Cure. I just really don't care about them, and can't undertstand why they get any sort of mention on a New Order page. They might've been part of a 'scene', Stateside, but they definitely weren't lumped together over here.

Surely they get a mention on a New Order page because some New Order fans also like the Cure? Doesn't seem that complicated an idea. I guess it should be confined to the 'general topics' forum though.

Personally I got into them both around the same time, 1982.

The different perceptions of acts and where they belong in the UK and the US is an interesting topic though. Perhaps its my imagination but in the States the record companies seem to have much more clout in inventing and enforcing catagories (e.g. "alternative" - what the heck does that mean?).

Originally posted by 404 error > Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by Wolfmann> It never ceases to amaze me how much people loathe the Cure.

It's not a case of loathing the Cure. I just really don't care about them, and can't undertstand why they get any sort of mention on a New Order page. They might've been part of a 'scene', Stateside, but they definitely weren't lumped together over here.

The different perceptions of acts and where they belong in the UK and the US is an interesting topic though. Perhaps its my imagination but in the States the record companies seem to have much more clout in inventing and enforcing catagories (e.g. "alternative" - what the heck does that mean?).

Alternative is "not MTV wank fodder John Cougar Mellencamp or Bon Jovi type shite". Money talks far more in the US than anywhere else, it's all big record company backing and all this. It's easy to forget that we're talking about music here, rather than something that is viewed purely as a commercial commodity. That may be why the US has produced so many outstanding non-commercial artists with a real rage and purpose.

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes > Originally posted by 404 error> > > > Originally posted by Al Jarvis> > Originally posted by Wolfmann> It never ceases to amaze me how much people loathe the Cure.

It's not a case of loathing the Cure. I just really don't care about them, and can't undertstand why they get any sort of mention on a New Order page. They might've been part of a 'scene', Stateside, but they definitely weren't lumped together over here.

The different perceptions of acts and where they belong in the UK and the US is an interesting topic though. Perhaps its my imagination but in the States the record companies seem to have much more clout in inventing and enforcing catagories (e.g. "alternative" - what the heck does that mean?).

Alternative is "not MTV wank fodder John Cougar Mellencamp or Bon Jovi type shite". Money talks far more in the US than anywhere else, it's all big record company backing and all this. It's easy to forget that we're talking about music here, rather than something that is viewed purely as a commercial commodity. That may be why the US has produced so many outstanding non-commercial artists with a real rage and purpose.

Actually, I thought 'alternative' meant, "us big record companies are excluded by definition from the catagory 'independent' so we'll abolish that and invent 'alternative' instead". Then you get 'alternative' radio stations with DJ's faking ethusiasm for the Cure and New Order alike, and all other bands considered to be in the catagory.

Then you get the term re-exported across the Atlantic.

Originally posted by Chris Nash Where are 'The Cure' in this poll???

spot on mate.. the cure were JD clones for a while. robert smith admits that he was heavily influenced by JD and NO.

Originally posted by 404 error > Originally posted by Budvar Huber> > [huge slab of text deleted]> >

Is there a world shortage of paragraphs or something :)

You are right! I'll go out and buy some more dots.

While I am at it why don't you go and register your profile?

Originally posted by Chuckles > Originally posted by Chris Nash> Where are 'The Cure' in this poll???

spot on mate.. the cure were JD clones for a while. robert smith admits that he was heavily influenced by JD and NO.

well, the opinion polls in the UK decided that Simon Gallup was actually nobody, so they were discounted.

Originally posted by Budvar Huber

Originally posted by 404 error

Originally posted by Budvar Huber

[huge slab of text deleted]

Is there a world shortage of paragraphs or something :)

You are right! I'll go out and buy some more dots.

While I am at it why don't you go and register your profile?

ah but recieiving too much mad spam has made me paranoid about putting personal info on the web.

(I wasn't referring solely to your post, by the way, a shortage of white space generally here).

Getting back to the Cure, I think BCWE is spot-on about the key being that they are a Southern band (though I resent that 'pretentious'). I don't think their more despairing works ever hit the authentic intensity that JD did, they've always been a bit literary and romantic, one step removed from direct emotion (to be really seriously miserable you clearly have to be a Northerner).

Which is why I long ago decided they were only my second favourite band, after NO (that and the fact that Wild Mood Swings was completely crap). But no way are they plagirists, they're simply different.

I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned that Dutch group Furniture. Hit song "Brilliant Mind" about 1984, very Hooky bassline, most of my NO-fan mates heard a resemblance. However you cut it, sounding something like is not ripping off is it? Remember that Freeez hit "AEIOU" that could me mixed with "Confusion"? Both Arthur Baker records? "Pure" by the Lightning Seeds always reminded me of NO but not a specific song, just the feel of it.

'Pure' reminds you of a New Order song because it shamelessly ripped off a guitar riff from Love Vigilantes. Not a bad song though.

Of course, that was the best bit.

Originally posted by Alan Tomlinson I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned that Dutch group Furniture. Hit song "Brilliant Mind" about 1984, very Hooky bassline, most of my NO-fan mates heard a resemblance. However you cut it, sounding something like is not ripping off is it? Remember that Freeez hit "AEIOU" that could me mixed with "Confusion"? Both Arthur Baker records? "Pure" by the Lightning Seeds always reminded me of NO but not a specific song, just the feel of it.

I would agree with the Furnature thing a little, but not the Lightning Seeds... the LS's were a rip of Toad TWS more than anything... very typical sound for the late eighties early nineties. I loved the song Brilliant Mind, of course it came from a sweet movie!

Originally posted by Alan Tomlinson Remember that Freeez hit "AEIOU" that could me mixed with "Confusion"? Both Arthur Baker records?

Well...in this case it's New Order sounding like someone else. These tracks were produced by the same people over consecutive weeks. There is even a Freeze/Order mix that Baker produced and that has never seen the light of day - not that shit bootleg that used to surface on Napster - same instruments, same engineer, same producer - same syndrums on both tracks blah, blah, blah....

The Cure

Main thing about the Cure someone else noted a while back is that for a teenager growing up they meant sonething to this person - we all have different bands that fall into that category when we're going through our angsty or other phases. Why should people have to grow out of those bands? You can expand those tastes, but for me there's nothing like going back to an old Adam & The Ants seven incher and remembering when music seemed like fun.