Barney Dies, Ian Lives...

Worse in my case. I don't think they would have gone in the dance direction. Even though I bought LWTUA in 1980, Blue Monday hooked me and it took forever to finally get into Joy Division. There would be no Electronic - no seeing my fantasy pairing of PSB and (at least part of) NewOrder come to life, no Barney getting pleasantly round. I think the Ian-NewOrder would have been really different. But then maybe I woulda come to my senses and loved them anyway. I hope so!

:D:D:D:D:D anita

Errm...and who would have written the tunes?

Ian-New Order would have been a sad underground poetry collective, with no music at all. Hooky would have left to form a live band, and Steve would have found something better to do. Both JD and NO would have been nothing without Barney's musical input. Curtis added lyrics and a stage presence, Barney was/still is the main musical influence.

I've got this theory that gillian writes everything...

Originally posted by anita Worse in my case. I don't think they would have gone in the dance direction. Even though I bought LWTUA in 1980, Blue Monday hooked me and it took forever to finally get into Joy Division. There would be no Electronic - no seeing my fantasy pairing of PSB and (at least part of) NewOrder come to life, no Barney getting pleasantly round. I think the Ian-NewOrder would have been really different. But then maybe I woulda come to my senses and loved them anyway. I hope so!:D:D:D:D:Danita

Ian was a huge Kraftwerk fan, so huge that he hooked the others into them... and also Bowie (with a strong accent in his Berlin years) and Iggy's Nightclubbing. All electronic stuff!

Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes Ian-New Order would have been a sad underground poetry collective, with no music at all. Hooky would have left to form a live band, and Steve would have found something better to do. Both JD and NO would have been nothing without Barney's musical input. Curtis added lyrics and a stage presence, Barney was/still is the main musical influence.

Was Barney the main musical influence during the JD years? I could not imagine JD (and subsequently NO) even existing without Curtis meeting up with Barney and Hooky. If that meeting had never taken place is it not more likely that Curtis would have gone on to do something memorable within another band rather than Barney and Hooky having any success? Wasn't there a plot by Curtis to get rid of Barney at one stage and to replace him with another guitarist?

Originally posted by JE SUIS EGG > Originally posted by anita> Worse in my case. I don't think they would have gone in the dance direction. Even though I bought LWTUA in 1980, Blue Monday hooked me and it took forever to finally get into Joy Division. There would be no Electronic - no seeing my fantasy pairing of PSB and (at least part of) NewOrder come to life, no Barney getting pleasantly round. I think the Ian-NewOrder would have been really different. But then maybe I woulda come to my senses and loved them anyway. I hope so!> > > :D:D:D:D:D> anita

Ian was a huge Kraftwerk fan, so huge that he hooked the others into them... and also Bowie (with a strong accent in his Berlin years) and Iggy's Nightclubbing. All electronic stuff!

I meant Electronic as in Barney and Johnny Marr with the occasional appearance of a PSB.

:D:D:D:D:D:D anita...Kraftwerk and Bowie & Iggy are SO COOL

Wouldn't it be best if they'd both lived ? And teamed up with Johnny?

I voted "the same" - meaning they would have been of a similar level of goodness, but musically I think very very different. The electronic route was always a given, although it's incredibly difficult to even imagine what direction it would have taken without Barney.

A totally implausible scenario. Apparently Ian's future in the band was doubtful anyway- because of his epilepsy and other difficulties (though how do you kick someone out of a band who was, in Martin Hannett's words, "the only lightning rod for the Zeitgeist I had met in those days?") I take one of NO's defining traits to be that they DIDN'T have Ian- at least the way I listen, I hear that absence in everything they've done, and I think they're better not worse for containing that absence. I can't see what they would have been like without Barney. Would "Atmosphere" have been half as great without him?

I think if Bernard had died, Ian would have probably blamed himself and committed suicide anyway.

Ian was too far gone to do anything Productive for a long period of time, there would have been no New Order, and probably not too much more Joy division, barney wrote a good Chunk of the bands Material and Hooky Has Credited him with making him use the chorus pedal and Getting a six String bass so he is much more important that ian in my Opinion though ian was obviously much stronger lyrically

Ian was fucked,if it wasn't sooner then later.Imploded on the US tour or after lacklustre 3rd album(movement?)Ian rather than Barney in New Order where would the humour come from?I'll take it as it is.

The band wouldn't be NO, they wouldn't have gone the dance route - especially without Barney. Even Ian and Barney would not have gone that route if they were both alive. Ian loses Barney, he goes deeper into his dark world, and he finds some way to create songs more dark and haunting that 24 hours and Atmosphere. So, this poll (like so many other before it) is completely a waste since never the twain would meet.

Originally posted by Julijana Zitnjak Wouldn't it be best if they'd both lived ? And teamed up with Johnny?

Yeah I'm sure Ian would that... not! That would be like NO teaming up with Duran Duran!

i've haven't thought about this scenerio. if joy division progressed, and assuming they gathered more success, i think the press would continuely think of JD as ian's band. in a way, they still do. i think ian would have been pissed over that and refused to do interviews. that is one prediction. i don't know much about ian (haven't gotten around reading that debbie curtis book), so it's hard to say where the band would go. i assume they'd still progress into an electronic band, cuz that was what ian was interested in.

and if barney died that young, i doubt people would remember him very much in the public or in music history. he wouldn't have had the opportunity to show his potential. joy division were not very well established, and barney was still timid on stage, and he could have easily been overlooked back then.

when you think about it, the story of joy division is usually seen as the story of ian curtis. he's the focal point of the band, at least in most music enclopedia bios he is.

I say the same because JD were a great band, and NO is a great band in a different way. However I also think that JD would have gone on to more electronic stylings, they just would have sounded more angst-ridden.

Hm, maybe the best way to put this is that JD would have gone on in the direction of "Movement" ... dark guitars with dance beats.

Originally posted by a very small boy > Originally posted by Benny's Cobweb Eyes> Ian-New Order would have been a sad underground poetry collective, with no music at all. Hooky would have left to form a live band, and Steve would have found something better to do. Both JD and NO would have been nothing without Barney's musical input. Curtis added lyrics and a stage presence, Barney was/still is the main musical influence.

Was Barney the main musical influence during the JD years? I could not imagine JD (and subsequently NO) even existing without Curtis meeting up with Barney and Hooky. If that meeting had never taken place is it not more likely that Curtis would have gone on to do something memorable within another band rather than Barney and Hooky having any success? Wasn't there a plot by Curtis to get rid of Barney at one stage and to replace him with another guitarist?

but remember how the band talks about Ian's "spotting" of good hooks and riffs during jam sessions.

and didn't Hooky play a huge role in the writing process for JD?

Originally posted by Pizda Ian was fucked,if it wasn't sooner then later.Imploded on the US tour or after lacklustre 3rd album(movement?)Ian rather than Barney in New Order where would the humour come from?I'll take it as it is.

why do you assume that they would have put out a lackluster third album?

Not to be blasphemous about this, but in 1980 Barney was still just "the guitar and keyboards player" so if he had died, I doubt it would have the same degree of myth-making as Ian's. As far as musical direction, I think Barney's lyrical style developed primarily because they couldn't use Ian's last lyrics forever, so I think Ian would have still been the primary songwriter.

As for better or worse, I choose not to pick because either case could have had variable results (after Ian, the band moved in a more electronic direction; who knows how it would have turned out without Barney?). The simple fact is, both were integral to the sound of the band, so both would have had an equal impact. In short, I dunno

Originally posted by film586 > Originally posted by Pizda> Ian was fucked,if it wasn't sooner then later.Imploded on the US tour or after lacklustre 3rd album(movement?)Ian rather than Barney in New Order where would the humour come from?I'll take it as it is.

why do you assume that they would have put out a lackluster third album? I don't assume,just putting it forward as a possible scenario for Ian flipping over the edge.Of course with this hypothesis of barney dying that would probably have been enough.Again,what we know about Ian suggests it was only a matter of time,who knows,his beloved MUFC being relegated may have been enough,I personally would be drinking for a week if the scum got relegated but Ian was a different sort.

Originally posted by Pizda > Originally posted by film586> > > > Originally posted by Pizda> > Ian was fucked,if it wasn't sooner then later.Imploded on the US tour or after lacklustre 3rd album(movement?)Ian rather than Barney in New Order where would the humour come from?I'll take it as it is.>

why do you assume that they would have put out a lackluster third album? I don't assume,just putting it forward as a possible scenario for Ian flipping over the edge.Of course with this hypothesis of barney dying that would probably have been enough.Again,what we know about Ian suggests it was only a matter of time,who knows,his beloved MUFC being relegated may have been enough,I personally would be drinking for a week if the scum got relegated but Ian was a different sort.

only a week

ps

I'm with Al on this

wow, this is like one of those 'if hitler had won the war...' hypotheses. frankly, i think they would have puttered along for a bit and then fizzled out as joy division, but who knows. probably never would have even been a new order without barney at the helm, as it was the change in line-up that made the difference initially.

so i guess i'm abstaining on this one, as well.