New Order vs REM ... Professionalism?!

I thought most bands / artists usually stuck to the same same setlist to discourage bootleggers. Maybe that's just an excuse.

My cousin recently stalked, err I mean followed, Gemma Hayes on her 3 date Irish tour, and she only played a couple of different songs on the last night as it was a "home" gig.

Is Stipe still using an old school music stand to read the words off, or has he moved into Barney teleprompter territory?

Occupation, Begin The Begin, Fall On Me and Cuyohoga all on the same setlist? Fantastic.

Didn't play Orange Crush on either night I'd have been gutted.

I'm convinced that New Order's policy of playing the same set every night after so many years of making it up as they were going along is all down to Barney's increased dislike of bootleggers rather than the publicised reason of "wanting to be more professional". It's not as if they are rehearsing any more to get it tighter, if anything the recent live shows were less professional in terms of performance !!

There wasn't a stage when bootleggers got hold of an album too soon was there ? This all started with the Technique dates - I don't remember bootleg copies of Technique becoming available early. I don't think many bands differentiate between recorded music pirates and people who record live shows, which offer a different perspective of the band. Of course it could be that Barney listened to his own performances on many of the older gigs and realised just how out of it he often was, and got embarrassed, and decided that doing the same set every night would minimise the chances of anyone ever getting to hear his cock-ups !

Originally posted by BCE I'm convinced that New Order's policy of playing the same set every night after so many years of making it up as they were going along is all down to Barney's increased dislike of bootleggers rather than the publicised reason of "wanting to be more professional". It's not as if they are rehearsing any more to get it tighter, if anything the recent live shows were less professional in terms of performance !!There wasn't a stage when bootleggers got hold of an album too soon was there ? This all started with the Technique dates - I don't remember bootleg copies of Technique becoming available early. I don't think many bands differentiate between recorded music pirates and people who record live shows, which offer a different perspective of the band. Of course it could be that Barney listened to his own performances on many of the older gigs and realised just how out of it he often was, and got embarrassed, and decided that doing the same set every night would minimise the chances of anyone ever getting to hear his cock-ups !

Wise words,Tim

This is certainly true - if the Order were to go back to mixing it up, or maybe even rehearsing 30 songs and doing any 16 or so each night but changing it from night to night, they would sell out every gig they did and make more money out of it !

Originally posted by Hink Wavesass© Didn't play Orange Crush on either night I'd have been gutted.

me too! and the perfect circle

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by BCE This is certainly true - if the Order were to go back to mixing it up, or maybe even rehearsing 30 songs and doing any 16 or so each night but changing it from night to night, they would sell out every gig they did and make more money out of it !

Would they though? They don't gig very often, and when they do they sell out, so I can't see it's of any real concern to them these days. Take the money, and run!

It's only in the UK they sell out - nobody else gives that much of a toss, do they ?

There's been a gap of almost 10 years between them performing and singing songs now days so i expect re-learning how to play such a wide sprinkling of their back catalogue is a bit of a chore, not like in the 80's when they were effectivly practicing the songs out live on a regular basis.

Steve and Gillian had this to say in 1993......

At one time, New Order would go out on tour with all of their material prepared for live performance, giving them the chance to pick and choose which songs to play each night. But starting with the last US tour, the group realized that they had to skim things down as it was getting to be a bit too much. Given the fact that everything is running live, their soundman ends up having 24 - 42 tracks to mix on each song. "If you think about it, it's like him mixing an LP as it was going along, because every song is different," says Gilbert. "It's like juggling."

But while the band has been forced to streamline their set list, they still strive for spontaneity, something missing from many electronic band's shows. "Most bands do 'a performance' which is essentially the same set to a certain extent choreographed," says Morris. "It shouldn't get away from a gig-type, spur of the moment type feeling which is hit-or-miss ,basically."

© Chaos Control Digizine

Reprinted with permission from the author

NEW ORDER-----NEW ORDER-----NEW ORDER-----NEW ORDER-->

Originally posted by Al Jarvis Must admit I've just totally ripped these lists off from a mail sent to me by Steve Waller this morning. Met him for REM at the Academy on Tuesday and he's forwarded the setlists they've done over the past two nights. Now, why do New Order insist that, on doing the same setlist two nights running, this is in any way [ahem] 'professional' when you look at what REM offered over two nights at the Academy. REM, a band surely more noted for their 'professionalism' than New Order could ever hope to be (which is the reason I still love the latter).

I think the keywords here are sheer indolence and laziness, which have only been allowed to increase exponentially during the 'sabbatical' years (all of the nineties, save for the Republic live dates). So what if 'Perfect Kiss' is a bitch to reprogram? Just do it, for Christ's sake. And why, if you can type in 20 titles for the autocue, not make it 40 or 50? You don't have to remember them anyway, just read them off the bleeding screen.

REM, on the other hand, have continued to mix up their setlists throughout the years, with the sole sorry exception of the Monster Tour ('95) which was really boring (they also did a fair share of 'oldies' during their '99 world tour). If professionalism means rehearsing 75 to 100 songs (the reports vary on this point)in preparation for an upcoming world tour, then I'm all for it. And besides, Stipe has, in the period since they stopped touring regularly year after year, never made a secret of using printed lyrics as a memory aid, but he's turned it into a prop (he uses a music stand), and the fans get something out of it as well (he throws the lyrics to the ground, page after page, ready to be picked up by eager hands). That's professional, too.

Somebody should forward this thread to the band members. 'The Peter Saville Exhibition Soundtrack' is a nice CD, but a little bit of extra work wouldn't hurt, men!

Even if the band played their usual programmed songs surely an interlude of Let's Go or Sunrise wouldn't tax the sound man too much would it?

it's the man with the huge avatar again! shrink it down or change it!

yeah, when they played the up tour thgey changed the set every night, now they have a new drummer who has had to learn the songs & they still change them all.

in fact when i saw them at the men on the up tour stipe played hope solo & clearly hadnt practised it, made loads of mistakes & had to abandon it part way through, but it was still great to see.

but rem were a pub band & started off playing cover versions at a party back on april 5th/6th in that little church in athens in the 70's so they have always operated under a different ethos

The most frustrating thing is that New Order could easily do a full set of songs with hardly any sequencing required. Maybe it's because they could do it that they don't !

Well, seeing as I prompted this thread by giving Al the setlists, the least I can do is add my comments, although firstly I can confirm that Stipey does still use a music stand, and also for some reason there was a nice array of toy dinosaurs on an amp behind Peter Buck!!

I suppose it comes down to how you define professionalism - New Order probably ARE more accomplished now, and they don't try songs out like they used to, but they are also - frankly - a bit dull. I went to the first two nights at Brixton and the two were virtually interchangeable, with Finsbury not being vastly different. When I saw them the most (84 - 86) I often went two nights running and saw very different sets. There may have been the odd mistakes, but that was made up for by the variety.

I took a chance when I saw REM two nights running at Earls Court in 99 - I expected "big" bands used to playing stadiums to play much the same each night, but was pleasantly surprised to see this wasn't the case, and so I did the same at Brixton (from a monetary viewpoint, NO could be missing out on income as me and Shugz would see them more if they varied things a bit!). OK, they've got a bigger back catalogue, but to do two 23 song sets and only duplicate 7 is pretty impressive (and they'll probably do another set tomorrow at Glasto), with at least two of these not done since the 80's. It's far from trendy, but I saw Springsteen last month as well and looking at the setlists before and since, he's been doing the same thing in terms of varying shows and performing songs that he hasn't done in years. I know NO aren't the exception, and plenty of groups do the same thing all the time, but it's just a shame when they don't have to be this way and weren't before.

And I think the fact that REM didn't do Orange Crush is interesting, because it would encourage me to go to more shows in the hope it would appear - if you get the same set every night then you know there won't be any surprises.

Let's just hope that they (or somebody close to and who has an influence) get the message that is coming across loud and clear here, and that one day we get a bit of variety again. I know for a fact that I would travel wherever in the world to see different sets !

Come on we got Love Vigilantes at Move last year what more do you want.... ;)

Originally posted by DoN Come on we got Love Vigilantes at Move last year what more do you want.... ;)

Them not following it with Crystal, Transmission, Regret, 60mph, Atmosphere......

Would be good to see a return of Everything's Gone Green and Perfect Kiss as well. Not to mention Sunrise, Face Up, Thieves Like Us....

Originally posted by Steve Waller Well, I can confirm that Stipey does still use a music stand, and also for some reason there was a nice array of toy dinosaurs on an amp behind Peter Buck!!

they have had those dinosaurs with them for ages - they always go to the recording studio with them as well - bit of a tradition i believe. if you'll excuse the pun.

Originally posted by masaaki sakai > Originally posted by Steve Waller> Well, I can confirm that Stipey does still use a music stand, and also for some reason there was a nice array of toy dinosaurs on an amp behind Peter Buck!!> >

they have had those dinosaurs with them for ages - they always go to the recording studio with them as well - bit of a tradition i believe. if you'll excuse the pun.

I've got a feeling that in one of the REM videos that has an REM "ABC" at the end, the "D" is for "Dinosuar"

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by DoN> Come on we got Love Vigilantes at Move last year what more do you want.... ;)

Yeah, but where was Ceremony?!

Oh, no! Not another Joy Division track... (oops, wrong thread)

Originally posted by Spotnick And "These Days" is indeed a REM track? Not a cover of something we know?

Nope... truly an original, and a great one at that, from arguably their best album (Lifes Rich Pageant).

Oh, and I forgot earlier today: you can actually go to the band's homepage (www.remhq.com) and request your favourite obscure track at the gig(s) you'll be attending. Take that!