Huntsman suggests a new topic: Crystal, Regret, or what?

At Huntsy's suggestion, since crisps on GR was too long, how does Crystal overcome abysmal lyrics to become what may be GR's greatest effort to date? Alternatively, do Regret's moving lyrics ultimately prevail?

H, obviously feel free to correct me.

I think Regret is the better song because of the bass riffs and lyrics throughout. I just can't bring myself to love the honey/money lyrics and the off key "..to the core" on Crystal.

Well, yes, the lyrics on Crystal are terrible, that is agreed. But the sound! Where are you, H, when I need you? This topic was your idea!

Don't get me wrong... i love crystal, i just think it could be improved. Regret on the other hand is perfection itself. I honestly can't think of anything wrong with it!

Well, Major, I've already offended Huntsy by saying bad things about Regret, but one reaction I have is that it's almost TOO perfect; it's almost unnaturally perfect.

Me and the Pats have had many long and hardened discussions around the Crystal vs. Regret subject. Personally, I believe they are both contenders for the ultimate top 10 of New Order all time greatest songs... off any album or any single release.

What would be good to establish, is whether anyone thinks along similar lines.

Do you: a) think that Patty has a point - that Crystal's unique sound tops Regret... is it BETTER? b) is Crystal too eagerly banted as one of the GREAT New Order moments? - pailing in comparison to the legendary and long-standing Regret? c) Believe that NEITHER song equates to NO's finest moments?

A serious discussion it must be said... and one that needs much input.

To the Orderline... what says you?

I often think its the fact that New Order don't make perfect records that attracts me to them, if you see what i mean. They don't sound over-produced and polished.

In the PCL, Low Life, Brotherhood days they certainly weren't over-produced. One might make the argument that Crystal has got quite a bit of production.

Originally posted by Huntsman Me and the Pats have had many long and hardened discussions around the Crystal vs. Regret subject. Personally, I believe they are both contenders for the ultimate top 10 of New Order all time greatest songs... off any album or any single release.What would be good to establish, is whether anyone thinks along similar lines.Do you:a) think that Patty has a point - that Crystal's unique sound tops Regret... is it BETTER?b) is Crystal too eagerly banted as one of the GREAT New Order moments? - pailing in comparison to the legendary and long-standing Regret?c) Believe that NEITHER song equates to NO's finest moments?A serious discussion it must be said... and one that needs much input.To the Orderline... what says you?

Crystal & Regret are both easily 2 of New Order's greatest songs (btw I take it we mean the superior album version). Regret's probably my favourite but it's close. Lyrics are obviously better but that's irrelevant in my book. Crystal has a lot more going on and is probably more 'thrilling' but Regret is just more, well beautiful. That bass solo in the middle of Regret is one of thee great New Order moments.

So, in summary, Regret is better but Crystal is nonetheless one of the best New Order songs, ever.

Let's take a tangent here...

We know NO have had, for a long time, a tradition of singles not appearing on albums.

In that perspective, now that a single can herald a brand new album, 'Regret' and 'Crystal' are absolutely brilliant comeback singles.

On 'Republic' as on 'Get Ready', you couldn't have dreamed of a better statement : look at that sound ! They're back !

I like both but I prefer 'Regret' which, to me, is absolute perfection.

Crystal is better for me. Not all the lyrics on Crystal are terrible. I like the 'We're like Crystal...' particuarly. Regret is great-just slightly over produced for me.

They sounded perfect back to back live.

Well Patty it seems the Huntsman's earlier predictions and waffling are being echoed by the Orderline faithful.

Regret seems to be nudging ahead here.

Zico it could be argued that the bass in Crystal is 'as good' as the bass (bit in the middle) as Regret? - Getting down to brass tacks here if we were to compare each element then Crystal's drums are also, quite possibly, ever so slightly better and more original than the Regret drums?

Personally, as stated, Regret is marginally better. The melodic flow of the voice (Barney's) is quite stunning and the words are sensational. Out of all of the Order's songs THIS song makes me go to jelly... and I'm not talking for my toast.

'Keep it Coming.'

I just bumped into Jools Holland during my lunch. Honestly. He really is a short arsed piece of shit.

Originally posted by Seb Briggs Crystal is better for me. Not all the lyrics on Crystal are terrible. I like the 'We're like Crystal...' particuarly. Regret is great-just slightly over produced for me.They sounded perfect back to back live.

Well there's a Crystal vote. I'm starting to wonder whether this is a new fan/old fan thing. Klumpy, me, Zico all preferring Regret (just) whilst Sebbsy and Patty in favour of Crystal. MMMmmmmm....

Sebb you actually stating that Regret is more produced than Crystal?

I would say so actually Huntsy. Maybe it's more the production style of Hague compared to Osbourne-Regret comes over more 'poppy' to me

Don't know about the old fan/new fan thing (after all, I've only been a fan for 16 years... )

What I know is that, no matter the song, I will always prefer the sensitive one to the hard edge one. Hence my love for 'Run Wild'.

That's if I have to compare cos I really love 'Crystal'...

Huntsy, are you telling me I'm a new fan? Or are you saying you are? I have been a NO fan for at least 15 years; I know that's hard for a 12-year old, but trust me.

Oopps... sos about that, I'm never one for bringing the new fan/old fan debate up for use to wage internal war... all that 'I'm better because I saw them in 1982 at the Crispy Ballroom with the Sexual Pistol Shooters' is not my game. It just appeared that the newer humans seemed to enjoy Crystal more... and thought it was evidence that the older gentleman still prefered his blondes in the shape of a Regrettable Circumstance.

That, evidently, is not the case... apologies for any misinterpretation. And Patty... you are indeed a long standing fan. However, how would I know this as you last told me you were 12 only a few weeks ago?!

• perhaps the Huntsman's mind detected more knowledge and pearly wisdom far too eccentric for a 12 year old small child.

Back to business...

can we narrow this topic down (opposite to how a post or thread normally goes).

If we are 'all' in agreement that Crystal and Regret are quite possibly 2 of New Order's most impressive monumental sound structures to date... WHICH IS THE BETTER!?

And Klumpy, I'm whole-heartedly with you on the heartfelt New Order song. I dearly love the heartstring numbers (I thought Patty did until he said he wasn't keen on Regret). ;)

Well, as far as monumental sound structures go, it has to be 'Crystal', I guess...

The best of all times bing 'The Perfect Kiss'.

Originally posted by Seb Briggs I would say so actually Huntsy. Maybe it's more the production style of Hague compared to Osbourne-Regret comes over more 'poppy' to me

HHmmm. For me, Regret isn't a part of Republic. It sounds like Regret was put on another album of average tickets. Just imagine an album to complement Regret? - oh, that's Getting Things Ready. Could we swap Slow Death Jawbreaker, and maybe Rocking the Shithouses with Regrettable Noise Buster and, mmmmm, World.. the Price of Eggs (provided they completely re-did it with proper instruments in place of the comic childrens toys Hague used with supplied double 'AA' batteries).

Well, I also think 'Crystal' has the most brilliant guitar attack in NO history. Don't you think ?

Originally posted by Geoff The Klump Don't know about the old fan/new fan thing (after all, I've only been a fan for 16 years... )

Being the tender age of 21, i have only been a fan for 7 years.

Question Buster... are the Regrettable and Crystal Crisps songs both better than the Perfectionist Kissing Device? - I belive they are. And this is the angst of it all. Are these two songs the defining masterpieces of all NO time?

Originally posted by Huntsman Question Buster... are the Regrettable and Crystal Crisps songs both better than the Perfectionist Kissing Device? - I belive they are. And this is the angst of it all. Are these two songs the defining masterpieces of all NO time?

I don't know, Huntsy. I've always had a strange relationship to 'The Perfect Kiss'. I admire it, it has the best video of all times but, in the same time, I find it a little intimidating.

Let's say 'Perfect Kiss' encapsulates all the essence of NO in the eighties while 'Crystal' and Regret' would struggle for the nineties and the years 2000 representation.

What do you think ?

Crystal and Regret and miles clear of Perfect kiss in my opinion. Klumpy's right..that 'guitar attack' is right up their with the best segments of song NO have ever done. Actually thats not a bad topic in itself...

If Regret had been on GR I think it would have sounded a bit darker...a bit like Primitive Notion..the 2nd best song on GR

Also, you have to feel a bit nostalgic about The Perfect Kiss : you know NO will never do such songs again.

But as we said quite a few times previously, that's fair enough if they're not as inventive as in the 80's as they've done their fair lot of invention back in those days.

You bring uo an interesting matter here, Nic.

Personally, what I like with come back singles in general, when they're good, is how they somehow have 2 lives.

A 1st one as a stand alone track, a second one as part of the album. It's a totally new dynamic.

Look...guys..and gals....Regret is the better song.

I just can't stand those brass stuff and background gospel-like vocals...jeez...sounds very 'Un-new order'...what happened to those much more minimal & disciplined tunes like Thieves, Silent Face, you know those early stuff...

BTW Regret do sound a little over-produced...I prefer the New Order version rather than the Stephen Hague's....you can just trust him to muck a song up and give a real dated feel to the song...I'm sure everyone can smell a Hague-produced tune from a mile away.....Has anyone heard JAMC's Hardest Walk remixed and 'gloss-ified' by Hague? ...How about the lost REM album supposedly given the 'Hague' treatment back in the 80's...Michael Stipe was too embarrassed to have it released, even then back in the 80's......

Regret gets my vote eventhough now I must admit 'Crystal' kinda grows on me...( there's lots of airplay in Australia )

The Kisser is a legendary track without doubt Buster... your fighting its cause like a bastard which deserves credit in itself. I fear Regret and Crystal have delved deeper into the emotions and as such, negates the inclusion of Kisser in this argument.

That said, if the Perfect song for you is the Kissing the Perfect Kisser... then that's fine. Seems a lot of folks ain't so sure...

One things certain for me - Regret is timeless... I can't hear Hague on this track at all... only Hooky's bass, Barney's voice, Gillians synth and Morris's drumming.

Perhaps they made Regret whilst Hague was sat taking a shit?

Not exactly, Hunsty. Perfect Kiss is not my fave NO song and it might not be perfect neither.

But can you think of another NO from the eighties that showcases more all that NO was about back then.

In the mean time, I could just pick up 'Lonesome Tonight' or 'Love Vigilantes' and say they better represent the emotional aspects of New Order.

When I first heard 'Love Vigilantes' in 85, I think it really changed my perception of music.

Then again, you might think 'Temptation' is the ultimate NO song.

I'm not sure about anything anymore now...

Old fan/new fan?? I remember when being what was contemptuously dubbed a "post-True Faith" fan was akin to being branded a leper. Just check out those old copies of "Last Orders" if you don't believe me!!

"Regret" or "Crystal"?? A dead heat, for me; the proverbial photo finish. Which says a lot for the heart-rending quality of the new boy, given the obvious nostalgiac allure of the former.

"Perfect Kiss" is an astonishing record, but, quite frankly, really did go on a bit live. Sorry.

M.

To go back to Regret, you have to remember the 1st time you heard it.

No news since 'World In Motion' and then, they come back with guitar riff, that bass and all those ingredients Hunsty rightfully mentionned.

As Barney could have said, 'like they had never been away'.

Originally posted by martin fradley Old fan/new fan?? I remember when being what was contemptuously dubbed a "post-True Faith" fan was akin to being branded a leper. Just check out those old copies of "Last Orders" if you don't believe me!!"Regret" or "Crystal"?? A dead heat, for me; the proverbial photo finish. Which says a lot for the heart-rending quality of the new boy, given the obvious nostalgiac allure of the former."Perfect Kiss" is an astonishing record, but, quite frankly, really did go on a bit live. Sorry.M.

I prefer French Kiss to Kitsch 'N Sync you'll all be damned if you people don't just agree 'The Village' is the best thing since 1963.

Originally posted by Geoff The Klump > Originally posted by Huntsman > Question Buster... are the Regrettable and Crystal Crisps songs both better than the Perfectionist Kissing Device? - I belive they are. And this is the angst of it all. Are these two songs the defining masterpieces of all NO time?

I don't know, Huntsy. I've always had a strange relationship to 'The Perfect Kiss'. I admire it, it has the best video of all times but, in the same time, I find it a little intimidating.

Let's say 'Perfect Kiss' encapsulates all the essence of NO in the eighties while 'Crystal' and Regret' would struggle for the nineties and the years 2000 representation.

What do you think ?

Geoffie, you're right about the Perfect Kiss. It summarises all the art of New Order in the 80's.

Now, regarding the last decade, I find that the lyrics for Regret are much better than those for Crystal, but I do prefer Crystal for its powerful music. IMHO, Regret is a bit weak from the musical point of view, although it might have been much better with a decent production.

Regret is not better than Crystal. And that's what I think, but I was never particularly fond of Regret in the first place. Never liked the lyrics, the song has, IMO, a too simple construction, nothing exciting. I don't mean that it's a bad song (it's a good song). But it's not better than Crystal.

Although, I might change my mind about this. Since I took an instant disliking to Regret when I heard it, but really love it now, and instantly loved Crystal when I heard it, I might get tired of it later. Hm

So what about Age of Consent versus Love Vigilantes? Comparable to Regret versus Crystal in being first track on their respective albums, although not in being singles. For me AOC is miles ahead of LV.

I still prefer Perfect Kiss to both Crystal and Regret though. :)

This is turning into a real good proper fist fight that's for sure.

The Perfect Kiss is a hallmark and life-changing record. Crystal and Regret take us deeper into the human psyche.

As for Age Consultant vs. Love Vibrations, I'd have to agree with Pastie... I loved Love Migration in equal measures, however, having heard them live... Age of Conseptual Consent blew LV out of the water. On top of which, it seems to have a lot more depth. That said, Love Viagras had a really unique lyric... but then so did Age of Restriction.

Fuck it... I'm as confused as Geoff now.

Pass me a sausage.

Originally posted by Ian Shimmin > Originally posted by martin fradley> Old fan/new fan?? I remember when being what was contemptuously dubbed a "post-True Faith" fan was akin to being branded a leper. Just check out those old copies of "Last Orders" if you don't believe me!!> > "Regret" or "Crystal"?? A dead heat, for me; the proverbial photo finish. Which says a lot for the heart-rending quality of the new boy, given the obvious nostalgiac allure of the former.> > "Perfect Kiss" is an astonishing record, but, quite frankly, really did go on a bit live. Sorry.> > M.

I prefer French Kiss to Kitsch 'N Sync you'll all be damned if you people don't just agree 'The Village' is the best thing since 1963.

Best thing since 1963 ? You realize 'The Village' is from 1983 do you ?

Age of Consent is better than LV I reckon.

How about Leave me alone vs Dream Attack?

Originally posted by Patrick So what about Age of Consent versus Love Vigilantes? Comparable to Regret versus Crystal in being first track on their respective albums, although not in being singles. For me AOC is miles ahead of LV.

Aaarrrrgggglll... AOC and LV are 2 of my favorite NO songs. But 'LV' is one of the very 1st NO songs I've heard besides 'Blue Monday' and that has to count.

It has a fabulous simplicity to it that could link it to... erm... 'Regret', true evidence.

But, then again, AOC is one of those songs that can cheer me up anytime...

Originally posted by Seb Briggs How about Leave me alone vs Dream Attack?

If I was in Blade Runner, and I was a really good robot that could last ages without nutrition or the need to ejaculate... I would have blown a fuse at the very thought of having to make the above decision before my forefathers.

That's like saying, which member of your cat family would you see die first in an horrific minor RTA ...

I know from my experience LV sounds fresh, glorious,etc. the first time after opening that classic tracing paper sleeve.... now 15 years later LV really sounds very-very 'tinny'...you know, like empty can noise...and far too clinical production....I think NO better 'digitally remaster' all their bloody albums. I've got cash here I've even bought Michael Jackson's remastered stuff...

So, Huntsy, are you ready to agree with me that anybody's top 5 NO songs would have to include at least 15 titles? I mean, what about Subculture and Shellshock, for example?

Originally posted by Huntsman > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> > How about Leave me alone vs Dream Attack?

If I was in Blade Runner, and I was a really good robot that could last ages without nutrition or the need to ejaculate... I would have blown a fuse at the very thought of having to make the above decision before my forefathers.

That's like saying, which member of your cat family would you see die first in an horrific minor RTA ...

Hey Huntsy..do you know that in Australia, RTA stands for 'ROAD & TRAFFIC AUTHORITY'...the governmental dept. that oversees these RTA.

Originally posted by Huntsman > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> > > > That's like saying, which member of your cat family would you see die first in an horrific minor RTA ...

Actually huntsy that wouldn't be that hard..like which is the shittest track on Get Ready..the tabby would have to go.

After that I'd definitely struggle. The Jaguar would probably be the last though

Oh I didn't quite read that right did I? I thought you said THE cat family. My Cat family...hmmmm....whichever one would leave the most inheritance...

Hmmm. That people are heralding Crystal and Regrets (sic, Jools Holland) as NO finest is sure signs of the youth amongst us. Beggin your pardon but, to me, fine choones as they are, Crystal and a few others on GRrrrr are sometimes too close to sounding like half baked hashes of your typical power-rock Oasis number, possibly bastardised with some other over-produced popular dribble from Robbie W.

Think about it; can you not almost visualize Liam echoeing the words "keep it comin" in some arena somewhere ? It's all done by the numbers a bit too much. The ONLY thing that keeps it (only just) a NO song are the lyrics(!!) I love Crystal but only becuase I know it's NO, and the bass bit in the middle is another reminder, though I have to force the images of hooky plodding about with his belly dragging on the floor out of mind while listening to it. Sorry Hooky.

Regret I have to say is not much better, though better it is in my books. What redeems Regret is that to me atleast it has NO written all over the first guitar chords offset by the violiny synth type gubbings. Oh, and it's the best show opener - ever.

Sorry to go against the grain. Regretful and Crustal are better than anything else out there, but NO's finest ? I think NOT. There are simply too many monumental, awe-inpiring and close-to-genius type moments elsewhere in their bag.

Where's the retrospective, the beauty, the melancholy, the moments that come and go; up, down, then up even higher? Where's the fuckin 'tood these days?

Less is more. Or maybe I'm just a crinkly :-(

'We make a livin out of writing love songs, and all the things in your life that go wrong'

Well, in the UK it stands for Road Traffic Accident so I don't know how that fits in with your future plans. I did hear that in ceratin parts of Germany RTA stood for Rats To Ants, which described a certain breed of rat that morhped into an ant after 2 years on the shelf like what a butterfly can do after turning into an earthworm from a sea shell.

Patty I never doubted your comment that a top 5 was impossible - as most peoples top 5 featured at least 15 tracks. I was attempting to keep away from what this post now is... which is your best track. I did try my best to keep it down to Crystal or Rebate... perhaps foolishly. Should have known this mighty can of worms would have sprang open.

Oh well. At least Buster has reaffirmed his pleasure at the Kissing Unit for one and all to see.

For what it's worth... I'm not sure whether Vanishing Point should be further discussed as a possible pretender to the ever growing thrown?

(I've seen all the hate of a woman too... blinding)

....

(Grow up Children Won't You Listen - marvellous).

Originally posted by Jaswinder Jassal Beggin your pardon but, to me, fine choones as they are, Crystal and a few others on GRrrrr are sometimes too close to sounding like half baked hashes of your typical power-rock Oasis number, possibly bastardised with some other over-produced popular dribble from Robbie W. Less is more. Or maybe I'm just a crinkly :-('We make a livin out of writing love songs,and all the things in your life that go wrong'

Comparing Crystal to Robbie F'king Williams...Huntsy are you listening?

Oh, absolutely, Huntsy, Vintage Port would be one of the 15 in my top 5. By the way, H, you need to realize I have this near fatal weakness for lively tunes. Probably explains my otherwise incomprehensible liking for the Innerspring Mattresses.

I think Jawbreakers comments have some merit... but 'half-baked Oasis re-hashes' seems to go a little too far off the boil. Getting Things Ready surely sees the band return to their rootsy side circa Lowest Life and Brothermouse? - Robert Williams is nothing short of blasphemy... it is a true blasphemous rumour.

I think Robbie by-product of waste Williams is about as opposite to NO as you can get... well, shove Michael Bolton in that mix and you know where I'm coming from.

Huntsy, speaking of RW, I feel a confession erupting. In prior times I acquired several Take That CD's.

Better than RW. Back for Good was a classic pop tune with genuine emotional depth. Not sure about Take That and Party though.

Well, it's been a while since I listened to them. They didn't make much of an impression in the U.S. I remember a video involving a boxing ring and being very unhappy that the mix on the CD was not the same as in the video.

I fear if you dig out those mostly forgettable tunes you'll quickly throw them into the Pacific. Whilst at University all of the lasses enjoyed Take That so you couldn't help but listen to the tossers. A couple of years later and each song sounds like rabbit shit being swept up in a yard dominated by slim tortoise leftovers.

Since the subject has come up, I may not be able to help myself from undertaking that experiment, Huntsy. I'll let you know the results.

I'd like to add my support for Perfect Kiss. Better than both Crystal and Regret in my opinion. However, it is not my favorite NewOrder song. It would be nice to hear live squished between the two contenders (Regret, Crystal).

For the moment Crystal is the better song for me but it could be simply that I am so pleased that after so many years NO have managed to come up with such behemoth of a song.

Also, several of my friends have bought Get Ready after listening to Crystal, this did not happen with Regret/Republic.

Crystal Vs. Regret, the Final Battle...

Well, I've been silent up until now, you all seem to be awaiting my say on this. Children, I think it's all very simple, let me cast my vote for....(lights go out, a shot is heard, I scream in terror, the lights come on and I'm obviusly constipated, I mean dead.)

Who killed Tabsy? We need Angela Lansbury stat!

Just kidding....but I have to say by sheer amount of years I've had to get used to it, Regret is the better.

Now, which Neil Diamond song should NO cover? (that'll scare the kiddies away)

Originally posted by Seb Briggs I just bumped into Jools Holland during my lunch. Honestly. He really is a short arsed piece of shit.

BEWARE THE SHORT ARSES.WE HAVE POWERS UNDETECTABLE TO YOU TALLER T***S!!!

Regret or Crystal ,eh. A nation decides. er...

On the merits, of course. Which is better?

Originally posted by Jeff White ahhh...come now...how the hell are we supposed to decide???

You could always toss a coin.Heads it's Regret,Tails it's Crystal. The excitements unbearable.... what will it be???

"AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""

YOU LOT ARE MAKING ME ALL DIZZY!!! :\puke:

I NEED TO HAVE A LIE DOWN!! THIS IS GETTIN TOO MUCH!!!

regret, no crystal, no regret, no crystal, no regret....

I say, regret.......or crystal... fuck!

My head hurts...

Liv

Originally posted by Liv regret, no crystal, no regret, no crystal, no regret....I say, regret.......or crystal...fuck!My head hurts...Liv

Me too!!

Originally posted by Huntsman Better than RW. Back for Good was a classic pop tune with genuine emotional depth. Not sure about Take That and Party though.

"Fake Twat and Farty"

' Lordy! She Overcook Ma Goose.....!"