:bow:

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Chris Nash wrote:

I quote... 'Liverpool Scum'

After crowing for a week that Arsenal would win, that Liverpool were crap, etc.

'Graceless?' Did you see Wenger interviewed after Arsenal got beaten (again) by Man Utd?

Oh and:

'Some great play from Arsenal, especially Woolcott, maybe there's hope for future England teams yet.

However, Arsenal were beaten by the better team on the night '

The above from:

NOOL

Liverpool have under-achieved for years

Eh? We've won 6 major trophies this century. That's unsurpassed by any English club. Our 2 major European trophies are the only ones any English side has won. We've finished above Arsenal 2 season's running. Made 3 Cl semis in 4 years, 2 finals and 1 win, so far...

What exactly were your expectations?

To cut it in the Premiership?

You've never won the Premiership in the 16 years since it's started and have only finnished runners up once (2002 behind Arsenal) You've not won a league since 89/90.

I'm not taking anything away from winning Europe, but you're hardly playing folk off the park, are you?

Manchestr United too have one 6 major trophies this century, 4 of those being Premier League, that says to me they are way ahead of liverpool in terms of quality and achievement.

Arsenal are getting there, but we've still won the Premiership twice 'this century' and have been serious contenders. We too have reached the semi/ final of Champions league - but let's be honest, if you don't win it, it means nothing.

If you read the press today, by your managers own admission, Liverpool struggle with the Premiership mentally, but find it easier in Euroope because of the 'format' that is the Champions League. It's less demanding than the league and easier to compete in (Rafa's words - not mine)as it's a cup competition that has the advantage of 2 fixtures per round (bar the league stages).

I quite like Liverpool it's not about who's best, who's won more etc..i'm simply stating that by Liverpool's history and standards - you're no way as good as you used to be and don't achieve as much as you used to, or dominate football like you did in the 80s.

Can't wait till the Arsenal come to the Hawthorns next season

"Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

El Jarvo wrote: Back-to-back relegations for our lot these past two seasons!

None of you lot will ever top that!

been there done that

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

Chrissy wrote:

El Jarvo wrote: Back-to-back relegations for our lot these past two seasons!

None of you lot will ever top that!

been there done that

I'm not sure City even managed to achieve back-to-back relegation?

If my subconscious serves me correctly - City were relegated in 1996 and then in 1998, where they dropped to the third tier for the first time.

Can't say they didn't try!

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

If all you can be arsed doing is dredging up a 3 year old quote, don't bother eh.

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

If all you can be arsed doing is dredging up a 3 year old quote, don't bother eh.

"Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's" Hank Wiseass

hey.. calm down, calmmm downnnnnnnn...

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

If all you can be arsed doing is dredging up a 3 year old quote, don't bother eh.

oh, and Liverpool Daily Post, 30th of January 2008! When I can be arsed, I like to make sure I do my homework well.

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

If all you can be arsed doing is dredging up a 3 year old quote, don't bother eh.

oh, and Liverpool Daily Post, 30th of January 2008! When I can be arsed, I like to make sure I do my homework well.

So the source of your 3 year old quote is a 4 month old news article. And? This is isn't really going anywhere is it?

Do you view Wenger as a serious under-achiever?

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote:

Bonzette wrote:

Hank Wiseass© wrote: "Liverpool have under achieved for years"

That now equates to 'have fallen short of being the dominant force in domestic football'.

The rest's just waffle.

Our expectations aren't the same as they were in the 80's. By anyone's standards, bar our own back then, we've far from under-achieved. How can you praise Arsenal for 'getting there' and having 'seriously challenged' in the same paragraph you dismiss reaching CL finals and semis?

Using your subjective view of the relative worth of one competition over several others, is a bit wonky, both sides have won 6 major trophies. It can be spun whichever way suits your argument. Some might argue viewing domestic achievements above European is a tad parochial.

“We haven’t been at the top level in the league for 15 years. Before I came we hadn’t won the Champions League for 21 years. We are improving, but we cannot say it is enough." Rafa Benitez

If all you can be arsed doing is dredging up a 3 year old quote, don't bother eh.

oh, and Liverpool Daily Post, 30th of January 2008! When I can be arsed, I like to make sure I do my homework well.

So the source of your 3 year old quote is a 4 month old news article. And? This is isn't really going anywhere is it?

Do you view Wenger as a serious under-achiever?

Wrong, wrong, wrong - unless Benitez could see into the future to discuss the game against Havant and Waterville 3 years before it happened?

I'm more inclined to agree with your manager, someone who knows the team inside out and calls the shots and makes tghe decisions (more interviews in today's press about how lucky you were to win in 2005, with a squad that wasn't that strong - Benitez words, not mine)and has an objective honest view about their football team, then some fan with a chip on their shoulder. It's not going anywhere - coz i've proved my point. End of.

Well Wenger won the Premiership 3 times and some of those other 'major' trophies you talk about - but he's never won the champions League, and I would say it's a safe bet he wants that more than anything as it's the only thing missing. So perhaps because he has not won that, it makes him an under-achiever?

But what is unique about him, is his ability to win all the said trophies (except Europe), especially the League, without spending big. That's a significant achievment in itself and one I doubt any of the top managers could probably achieve. Look at the difference in spending - look how much Liverpool have spent in comparison? but still not a really strong and consistent side.

But that too can be his downfall and leave Arsenal short, like this season - where we're clearly in need of some experienced players who cost money, and Wenger has a frustarting reluctance to aknowledge this.

We've been inconsistent over the years - Wenger hasn't managed to build on the success of winning league titles - this is down to the manager and his belief in growing a talented youngster, rather than spending on experince. This leaves gaps, like Arsenal are currently going through, but having seen the team this season, you can see what Wenger saw long before we did.

Last season was soul destroying, but despite not winning this season, we got a glimpse of things to come. Wenger isn't finished yet - Arsenal are on the brink of something very big. But again, if he doesn't win Europe - then yes, I think it will be seen as some kind of failure. I'm certain Wenger would feel that.

And I don't agree at all with him fielding weak sides against Tottenham in the Carling Cup or Manchester United in the FA Cup, I think that was a very bad managerial decision - but he made it because he feels the Champions League and Premier League are most important. I think this is wrong, such is his desire to obvisuly prove himself further as 'successful'?

We have achieved on some level obviusly, but in my opinion, we could achieve a lot more. But this season I have been really proud of what I have seen and the team, I think Arsenal have been superb, but just ran out of steam, and a bit of luck. It's not all about trophies for me, i've had a great season this year, one of my best - a few disappointments, granted - but it's been great to see Arsenal really play amazing football and watch an amazing team clearly in the making.

Enjoy your game tonight

We last won the league 18 years ago not 15. I'm sure Benitez is well aware of that. Not sure what Havant & Waterlooville has to do with anything. I'm sure you'll enlighten me.

I don't really see how you can logically claim that a team who were thought of as underdogs, throughout the tournament and then went on to win it, have under-achieved in doing so. If anything that's about as demonstrably to the contrary as it's possible to get.

Again I don't see how you can claim to have proved your point, when you don't seem to be able to answer the question of wether or not Arsene/Arsenal have underachieved. How about narrowing your answer down to a simple yes or no. If it's a no, then feel free to tell me how Liverpool have under-achieved, whilst simultaneously achieving more than Arsenal.

We'll see if Arsenal are on the verge of anthying other than losing most of their best players. Perhaps Wenger will add to his amazing record of profitting form players sales. Pity there's no prizes for that.

Do you think Wenger will stick with Adebayor? He's not really top drawer is he?

Glad to here you're enjoying the pretty football. Hope it didn't upset you too much having to watch the more pragmatic sides Graham subjected us to.

Apparently, Tom Hicks is attending the game tonight against Police advice.

I really dont know what to say about that...

Anyway, Come on Chelsea!

You seem to have made this into a debate Liverpool versus Arsenal which totally misses the point I was originally making. Liverpool are a bigger club than Arsenal FACT. This takes into account the comparative histories of both sides, fan base and in recent years financial backing. However, taking into account the fact that Liverpool are one of the biggest clubs in European football to have not won or even COMPETED to win the league in the premiership years is underachievement, however you try and spin your argument this simply cannot be ignored.

Rafa Benitez demonstates this point in his quote. A quote made in January where he also spoke about the Havant game, that is the relevance. Even if you choose to blindly ignore the factual date of the quote the fact you have not won the league in the last 3 years does not change, so the point still stands.

Winning the Champions League is of course in no way underachievement and your side is an improving one under Benitez, but your history during the course of the premiership years is generall underachievement. Lets not forget some of the major trophies you keep refering to were won under Houllier - but remind me why he was sacked?? because Liverpool FC failed to compete in the premiership and you have not come any closer to winning this competition under Benitez - indeed an argument could be made you have fallen further behind as at least under Houlier you finished second, or though never looked likely winners even that year. For a club like Liverpool to not win the league in 18 years is underachievement - lets face it, this time next year Utd could be celebrating drawing level with Liverpool for the number of titles won, a statistic unthinkable in 1990, a statistic that must haunt most Liverpool fans.

Your argument will continue to be that the Champions league is the pinnacle of football and a greater achievement than winning the league. As an Arsenal fan winnning the champions league would of course be huge but the league is the bread and butter of club football. Man Us general dominance in recent times has stemmed from domestic success not european. Indeed if the European Cup had the same format as it did when Liverpool were the dominant force and created their legacy, you would not have competed in the competition one single time in 18 years - that is not success. Of course the champions league is what it is and you have achieved highly in that competition which is a significant achievement, but overall I don't know many people connected with Liverpool that see not competing in the league as achievement, and for great swathes of the 90s you failed to deliver in any competitions of any note - that = underachievement. If you don't believe the league is important just ask Steven Gerrard who apparently loningly looks at Chelsea and their success according to his autobiography - and hey what have they won recently? yes the Premiership.

Liverpool are and will continue to be a great club I will not be surprised to see them win the title one or two times in the next five years, indeed i expected more of them this year - but that will not change, that for the last 15-18 years, the club by not competing for the league has underachieved. It is not the 80s anymore, no, but to have failed year on year to even contend for the league for a club the size and stature of liverpool with the money spent on players throughout that period is a disappointing return.

If you must persist in your digs at Arsenal (yawn) I will state this. Adebayor = more league goals this season than Owen has ever got in a single season. And more goals than any liverpool striker (til this year with torres) since Fowler in 95, a period, lets not forget, according to you Liverpool have been busy achieving to their expectations!

As for Graham, maybe you're just bitter he brought to an end the Liverpool era where you could compete in the league.

Uncle Liam wrote:

John Arne-Toblerone-head.

The debate isn't about Liverpool and Arsenal but I think it's perfectly logical for that comparison to inform the debate. After all Arsenal are one of Liverpool's main obstacles towards achieving their aims.

Why take the 80's as a period that performance needs to be measured against? Weren't Arsenal quite good in the 30's? Who's bigger than who is always open to debate. I'd tend to agree that Arsenal aren't as big as Liverpool but they currently play in front of bigger crowds and generate far greater income.

Liverpool's major area of under-achievement in my mind is falling behind Arsenal off the pitch. Which makes it all the more remarkable that on it, we've achieved more during this period.

What better yardstick to use?

I don't think I've attempted to argue at any point that Liverpool could have done better in the league. You really don't need to keep referring to anyone else's opinion on that matter. I'm sure it's not hard to find plenty of quotes relating to how obsessed various employees of LFC are with winning the 'bread and butter' competition.

Interesting turn of phrase 'bread and butter', isn't it? It's often quoted and comes from Shankly. It gets to the crux of the issue. A staple diet has always been important but do you regard it above the chance to enjoy fine dining on a regular basis?

It's quite right that we were under-achieving in the 90's and that we wouldn't have qualified, if they hadn't changed the criteria but times change, we have qualified and we have won it. Without our staple diet, we’re still able to eek out a very healthy existence.

I'm still not convinced he made that quote in January. I wouldn't put it past some of the more scurrilous rags to employ journalists, who are in the habit of mixing and matching things for effect; they're often then quoted elsewhere.

Do you think Wenger will stick with Adebayor? He's not really top drawer is he?

No need to be so defensive this time, you could just answer the question, instead of your really interesting stats provided for the supposedly boring 'dig'. I don't really see it as dig, nor where I'm supposed to have this chip on my shoulder either. I sometimes enjoy arguing the toss over not very important football issues. I don't think I've come across as bitter, especially as Arenal are by far my favourite side out of any of our rivals. Bergkamp is probably my favourite non Liverpool player. I thought it was relevant when you made a point about how enjoyable the pretty football is.

Bonzette wrote: You seem to have made this into a debate Liverpool versus Arsenal which totally misses the point I was originally making. Liverpool are a bigger club than Arsenal FACT. This takes into account the comparative histories of both sides, fan base and in recent years financial backing. However, taking into account the fact that Liverpool are one of the biggest clubs in European football to have not won or even COMPETED to win the league in the premiership years is underachievement, however you try and spin your argument this simply cannot be ignored.

Rafa Benitez demonstates this point in his quote. A quote made in January where he also spoke about the Havant game, that is the relevance. Even if you choose to blindly ignore the factual date of the quote the fact you have not won the league in the last 3 years does not change, so the point still stands.

Winning the Champions League is of course in no way underachievement and your side is an improving one under Benitez, but your history during the course of the premiership years is generall underachievement. Lets not forget some of the major trophies you keep refering to were won under Houllier - but remind me why he was sacked?? because Liverpool FC failed to compete in the premiership and you have not come any closer to winning this competition under Benitez - indeed an argument could be made you have fallen further behind as at least under Houlier you finished second, or though never looked likely winners even that year. For a club like Liverpool to not win the league in 18 years is underachievement - lets face it, this time next year Utd could be celebrating drawing level with Liverpool for the number of titles won, a statistic unthinkable in 1990, a statistic that must haunt most Liverpool fans.

Your argument will continue to be that the Champions league is the pinnacle of football and a greater achievement than winning the league. As an Arsenal fan winnning the champions league would of course be huge but the league is the bread and butter of club football. Man Us general dominance in recent times has stemmed from domestic success not european. Indeed if the European Cup had the same format as it did when Liverpool were the dominant force and created their legacy, you would not have competed in the competition one single time in 18 years - that is not success. Of course the champions league is what it is and you have achieved highly in that competition which is a significant achievement, but overall I don't know many people connected with Liverpool that see not competing in the league as achievement, and for great swathes of the 90s you failed to deliver in any competitions of any note - that = underachievement. If you don't believe the league is important just ask Steven Gerrard who apparently loningly looks at Chelsea and their success according to his autobiography - and hey what have they won recently? yes the Premiership.

Liverpool are and will continue to be a great club I will not be surprised to see them win the title one or two times in the next five years, indeed i expected more of them this year - but that will not change, that for the last 15-18 years, the club by not competing for the league has underachieved. It is not the 80s anymore, no, but to have failed year on year to even contend for the league for a club the size and stature of liverpool with the money spent on players throughout that period is a disappointing return.

If you must persist in your digs at Arsenal (yawn) I will state this. Adebayor = more league goals this season than Owen has ever got in a single season. And more goals than any liverpool striker (til this year with torres) since Fowler in 95, a period, lets not forget, according to you Liverpool have been busy achieving to their expectations!

As for Graham, maybe you're just bitter he brought to an end the Liverpool era where you could compete in the league.

Great post.