back in Europe

Last night we were celebraiting our join to EU. There was many people from different countrys with their flags and symbols, a few TV stations. Together with Berlin we had a quite great party. There was a TV bridge between Berlin and Warsaw. Unfortunately some moment was boring, you know - officials. But in general I can say it was great, especially when we all started to sing "all you need is love" - thousands of people, just before midnight. Yeah,after "a few" terrible years we are back in our European home.

Congrats to you and your countrymen! Here's to the future!

Originally posted by arek przybyl Last night we were celebraiting our join to EU. There was many people from different countrys with their flags and symbols, a few TV stations. Together with Berlin we had a quite great party. There was a TV bridge between Berlin and Warsaw. Unfortunately some moment was boring, you know - officials. But in general I can say it was great, especially when we all started to sing "all you need is love" - thousands of people, just before midnight. Yeah,after "a few" terrible years we are back in our European home.

You-ve never been out of Europe Arek, maybe abducted for a while but never ceased to be at the heart of Europe. Having said so I am immensely happy that, at last, you are in the European Union. Let-s hope the Eurocrats and the German officialdom denying you still the full benefits of membership get banished from office. It-s nothing short of a disgrace that the new entrants do not have the right of free circulation.

Anyway, let-s celebrate today and worry tomorrow. As the Irish would have it

Be one thousand times welcome dear friends:)

and of course

Originally posted by almanso i hope your entering to globalization be for the good, and not as many other countries (like yours, like mine) that suffered from it. my best wishes to Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Cyprus and Malta.

Errmmm Alejo, Poland and most of the countries entering the European Union suffering came through 40 years of Communism, globalisation had nothing to do with it.

Originally posted by Budvar Huber

Originally posted by arek przybyl Last night we were celebraiting our join to EU. There was many people from different countrys with their flags and symbols, a few TV stations. Together with Berlin we had a quite great party. There was a TV bridge between Berlin and Warsaw. Unfortunately some moment was boring, you know - officials. But in general I can say it was great, especially when we all started to sing "all you need is love" - thousands of people, just before midnight. Yeah,after "a few" terrible years we are back in our European home.

Anyway, let-s celebrate today and worry tomorrow. As the Irish would have it

Be one thousand times welcome dear friends:)

and of course

To be exact it's "one hundred thousand times welcome." ;) Or in Irish: "Céad Míle Fáilte!"

Nice one Arek

Now can you make sure all the Polish women who come over here to work shave their faces first please !

Originally posted by Element115 > Originally posted by Budvar Huber> > > > Originally posted by arek przybyl> > Last night we were celebraiting our join to EU. There was many people from different countrys with their flags and symbols, a few TV stations. Together with Berlin we had a quite great party. There was a TV bridge between Berlin and Warsaw. Unfortunately some moment was boring, you know - officials. But in general I can say it was great, especially when we all started to sing "all you need is love" - thousands of people, just before midnight. > > Yeah,after "a few" terrible years we are back in our European home.>

Anyway, let-s celebrate today and worry tomorrow. As the Irish would have it

Be one thousand times welcome dear friends:)

and of course

To be exact it's "one hundred thousand times welcome." ;) Or in Irish: "Céad Míle Fáilte!"

Thanks Element I´ve always liked that sentence and I see now it's a hundred times nicer than I had thought.

...as I can remember, the polish and the swedish ladies are the most beautiful ones I've ever seen, provided that men are fan of blondes...

I guess a trip to Poland won't be nearly as cheap as it once was. Oh well, if it's mostly blonds there anyway, what's the use? ;)

Originally posted by Spotnick > Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope> I guess a trip to Poland won't be nearly as cheap as it once was. Oh well, if it's mostly blonds there anyway, what's the use? ;)

But aren't you from Poland? :D Yes, but upon second inspection, he said the LADIES there are mostly blond. So that leaves hope for dark-haired little boys!! MMM...my favorite! God bless the Catholic Church!

Everything I've read about the expansion is globalization in terms of creating new markets-- 75 million new consumers. And in Poland, consumerism is already booming.

Does this mean the UK will get even more people invading us to live off benefits and handouts? No wonder i pay so much tax.

Originally posted by SP1 Does this mean the UK will get even more people invading us to live off benefits and handouts? No wonder i pay so much tax.

I thought that was because you get more welfare in the form of health care and other social services. No sense blaming immigrants, as they often contribute just as much as anyone else, but maybe in other ways.

Originally posted by His Holiness, The Pope > Originally posted by SP1> Does this mean the UK will get even more people invading us to live off benefits and handouts? No wonder i pay so much tax.

I thought that was because you get more welfare in the form of health care and other social services. No sense blaming immigrants, as they often contribute just as much as anyone else, but maybe in other ways.

Yeah we get free Health Care,unlike you but thats it. I pay about $200 A WEEK in Tax,and have been to hospital once since i was born. I dont object to people moving here in search of a better life (i would love to move to the US),i just dont agree with them coming over here to sponge off us instead of getting a job and working for their dreams! We have a guy here called Hook,he openly supports Bin Laden/Al-Qaeda and bad mouths the US/UK and what does he get? £1000 A WEEK in benefits for his unemployed family. Fuckin unbelivable.

Last night Irish anti - capitalists joined in the celebrations too. We had a good street party, and then did a mass trespass of a private park, and then headed up towards the (5 mile walk-each way) phoenix park, where, behind some 5000 cops, water cannons, army etc were the self-titled "leaders" of the EU. There was, of course, a good old-fashioned riot.

Its great to see Cyprus, Czech, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia join up, but beneath the talk of freedom, equality and opportunities, lets have a look at what exactly we are celebrating.

While doubtless the aforementioned countries will celebrate being inside the big gang rather than outside it, is the formation of trade blocs a good thing? Is it correct that EU farmers can use copious chemicals to fuck up arable and pastoral land, leading to gross overproduction and “food mountains”, while external trade (e.g. from Africa) Is effectively blocked? Is it correct that the combined expenditure of the countries of the EU (pre new members) spend more on militarism (killing people) than healthcare (helping people)? Is it correct to flirt with the Turkish government for accession (any time now) while that country has a stack of human rights abuses that Henry Kissinger would be proud of?

Is it correct to celebrate (doubtless with governmental assistance by the way of 3rd rate models in blue t-shirts) the replacement of 1 bureau with another? The EU is an anti democratic organisation. The European “parliament” is an undemocratic group of unrepresentative bureaucrats with, at best, tokenistic powers. 3 years ago, the treaty of Nice was put to the Irish people in a “referendum”. The treaty made NO reference to it being a constitutional precondition for the accession of these 10 states. The treaty involved shifting the balance of power in favour of the old states, GB, Ireland, Spain, Greece, Germany, etc, and basically, giving them a way out of the redistributave core of the social democratic model of the EU. The Irish people who voted no (Myself included – I only vote in referendums) were in a slight majority, and so the treaty was rejected. At this stage, what could have happened in a peoples EU would be that these new countries would have entered on the terms that (for instance Ireland entered) others did, and benefited from structural funds etc, but the profit and corporate motive behind the social democratic illusion of the EU came out in style. The response was thus.

The NO voters are greedy (a falsehood- see above), new EU members can’t join until this treaty is passed (a constitutional falsehood), and that the “referendum” should be held again, so that we get the “correct” answer. EU democracy in action.

The full force of the state, corporate media, and assorted charlatans were dedicated to this vote, and they got their answer. YES, I guess we were correct this time.

And so the boarders have been widened. Poland and the others are in the market. Cheap labour providing exploitative multinationals with a gateway to the big, EU market.

And Blair is running a referendum on the EU constitution – already hinting that if the answer is wrong, he’ll do a Nice treaty on it, and run it and run it and run it till the answer is right. And when I say right, I mean thacherRight.

So, whats the alternative? I think ALL nations (not just these 10) should be allowed to freely trade with us, on equal terms, in an ethical manner. I think immigrants from every country should be allowed into every country. Why support the free transfer of capital, and not the free transport of people?

And the immigrants are not the cause of your higher tax SP1. The fact that the top 1% of earners in Britain earn more than the bottom 10% of earners, while of that bottom 10%s pay, proportionally MORE is paid in tax, and 3 times MORE is given to charity is the cause. Also the fact that your “leader” sees fit to commit mass murder at a cost of BILLIONS, to no social avail, and, as it seems, NO international improvement is. Obviously you’ve been well trained by intellectuals the likes of Richard Desmond into believing that anyone would travel half way round the globe to pick up the dole and bring up their family on welfare!

And so to last night. We had a great time, (the) Andrew Weatherall dropped great jazz tunes, and we dropped other things, dancing, partying, discussing. Until the riot cops moved in. it seems our European leaders are so representative of their people’s interests that they need (approximately 1/3 of the cops in the state) 5000 cops to protect them. We had a riot, and every paper has nice pictures of it today. The highly stylised event was mealy a provocation of the permissive veneer of the state.

Needless to say the redtops discussed the issues behind the internationalisation of the neo-liberal market agenda in their uniquely fair, balanced way today!

Last night Poland celebrated. Welcome to the creamy white part on the top of the global pint of Guinness. Just remember the 80odd% of it that is black, and suffering.

I think you will find that the vast majority of voters in the Republic of Ireland voted 'NO' to Nice first time round becuase they would stop getting bucketloads of cash from EU like they have done for the last 30 years. Also, what you will actually find is that anotmer major reason people voted 'NO' was a lack of information.

Another thing: Turkey will not be allowed into the EU until it has addressed its Human Rights issues. I think everyone acknowledges this.

I would also like to see CONCRETE EVIDENCE (i.e not something ripped from the Socialist Worker) that people in the EU will suffer because of enlargement. EU memebership has greatly benefited countries such as Spain and Portugal.

As for your quite frankly ridiculous claim that the European Parliament is 'undemocratic'? How do you explain... erm... European Elections?

The fact that you appear to be proud of the riots is also insulting. I have wondered for years why the Left sees the need to have a good riot every now and again, notably at times of global progress. Thank god your lot will never ever be in charge, we'd all be poor and desolate within six months.

Hello again uncle Liam.

First off, I didn’t say WHY people in the ROI voted no first time round. Some were afraid of loosing farm subsidies, some were catholic hard liners who didn’t like the idea of a “Godless Europe”, some had read the nice treaty, particularly article 133, and decided that the people of the eastern states would be WORSE off than if they joined as the EU’s structures stood at that date. I didn’t post in this paragraph first time round because it is straying from the point. If the EU doesn’t like the way you vote, they’ll simply run the referendum again and again and again until it turns up trumps for them after months of bully tactics.

Never did I say that the people of the East would be worse off or would “suffer” in the EU, but don’t let little things like reading my post put you off now Liam. The people of Ireland didn’t suffer a lack of information either, just a lack of the kind of information that would lead them to vote along the lines the state wanted. Ireland has a referendum commission, and each house was posted leaflets, along with endless infomercials and billboards.

As for the EU parliament, would you say that 1 EP for every 650000 citizens is democratic? Would you say that this 1 EP being “consulted” on various issues, petitioning and “modifying” legislation, being “consulted” on commissioners is the people of Europe deciding their own destiny? I have discussed this, in depth with someone who should know: an MEP.

Lets deal with the issues of my post eh? Do you want to live in a Europe where approximately 3000 people died between June 1993 and June 2003 trying to enter the EU trading bloc in the channel tunnel, in the Mediterranean, two summers ago, a truck full of immigrants was opened just outside the port of Roslare Ireland, in the back were numerous dead immigrants.

“My lot” by the way are anarchist, and never ever want to be in charge of anyone – if you want to read more:

http://www.indymedia.ie/index.php http://struggle.ws/

I’d advise you to, before you round me up and react in such an ill-considered and uniquely personal manner.

A few questions:

How is his a time of global progress (try even to tell me how it’s a time of net global progress on the progress / regress graph)?

What leads you to accept Turkey wont be allowed into the EU until its abuses are cleared up?

I’m sorry if I insulted you by rioting. I am insulted that your army seem free to commit mass murder (and, as we see torture too!) on a grand scale, and see the militarisation of the EU as slightly more violent. The permissive veneer of the state insults me; I am insulted by the spectacle. I am not necessarily proud of the Riot, but it did nicely bring le spectacle to a nice, perfectly mediated finale. Id advise everyone to provoke the state, just for a moment, and see how it reacts, with what force, and then go about a genuinely well thought out questioning process. Take years if you want. Just look a little deeper!

And Liam, if you want to express an opinion, then do it in a less personal manner, and try , for a moment to deal with the issues, not what insults you, what paper I (don’t) get my facts from peppered with half truths and lingering insults between the lines.

nake-du !

You have obviously never heard of the principle of subsidarity. You know, the belief that all decisions should be taken at the lowest level possible. That is mainly why the EU maintains its system of government. Hence the level of representation. Remember, all these people are represented at local and national levels, and in some cases regional levels as well (scotland, wales, basque country...). What do you want? Direct democracy. Surely i dont even need to explain how unworkable that is.

My belief on the turkey issue is from reading numerous articles by both commentators and politicians with this belief. Such articles will be presented when i have the time to find them.

As for your rioting? Hardly democrtic is it. A ideology you long for so much, yet you flout it as and when time suits.

I am not defending the torture, but to bring up an old topic (albeit one which i will happily discuss all day) but you have defended the Palestininan terrorism which has killed thousands of people. You have admitted hatred for a country which seeks to protect the rule of law, enocurage democratic principles in the face of consistent threats to its existence and expressed support for the side which holds these values in the highest of contempt.

And as for 'my army'. What mass murder? Iraq? Afghanistan? Bosnia? Kosovo? The last three were wars which were launched on a humanitarian basis. (and, if i remember correctly, wars to protect muslims, so much for america's "war on islam") Iraq was a proactive war under the guise of WMD. Against a guy who committed genuine mass murder. We can sit here and debate the rights and wrongs of the war all day, i personally believe it was right, but i find your charge that 'my army' (do you mean the british army? The american army? The new, and yet to come into existence EU army, NATO?) has carried out 'mass murder' massively insulting to the human race.

Originally posted by Uncle Liam You have obviously never heard of the principle of subsidarity. You know, the belief that all decisions should be taken at the lowest level possible. That is mainly why the EU maintains its system of government. Hence the level of representation. Remember, all these people are represented at local and national levels, and in some cases regional levels as well (scotland, wales, basque country...). What do you want? Direct democracy. Surely i dont even need to explain how unworkable that is. My belief on the turkey issue is from reading numerous articles by both commentators and politicians with this belief. Such articles will be presented when i have the time to find them. As for your rioting? Hardly democrtic is it. A ideology you long for so much, yet you flout it as and when time suits. I am not defending the torture, but to bring up an old topic (albeit one which i will happily discuss all day) but you have defended the Palestininan terrorism which has killed thousands of people. You have admitted hatred for a country which seeks to protect the rule of law, enocurage democratic principles in the face of consistent threats to its existence and expressed support for the side which holds these values in the highest of contempt. And as for 'my army'. What mass murder? Iraq? Afghanistan? Bosnia? Kosovo? The last three were wars which were launched on a humanitarian basis. (and, if i remember correctly, wars to protect muslims, so much for america's "war on islam") Iraq was a proactive war under the guise of WMD. Against a guy who committed genuine mass murder. We can sit here and debate the rights and wrongs of the war all day, i personally believe it was right, but i find your charge that 'my army' (do you mean the british army? The american army? The new, and yet to come into existence EU army, NATO?) has carried out 'mass murder' massively insulting to the human race.

eu democracy: i havent all day, nor am i into copying and pasteing off eu websites : read the constitution and its powers.subsidarity only works if there is genuine democracy on all levels, strats etc, which , incidentally there isnt. as i said i dont vote in local elections either, believeing them equally farcical as the "big" MEP elections etc. power in any council (certainly in eire) is in the hands of town planners and city managers - unelected by the way

explain to me (esp in the information age) how direct democracy isnt workkable?

there is no factual basis to what i said on turkey, nor did i say there was. it looks damn likely (if youre to listen to solana and prodi , for instance) that these abuses will be covered up before enlargement

"As for your rioting? Hardly democrtic is it. A ideology you long for so much, yet you flout it as and when time suits" im lost here - could you please explain?

as for this - well its just untrue and insulting "I am not defending the torture, but to bring up an old topic (albeit one which i will happily discuss all day) but you have defended the Palestininan terrorism which has killed thousands of people. You have admitted hatred for a country which seeks to protect the rule of law, enocurage democratic principles in the face of consistent threats to its existence and expressed support for the side which holds these values in the highest of contempt. " i do dispise the state of isreal, a constitutionally racist state, and one with a terrible human rights record. i never ever ever defended suicide bombers! show me the post, or ill ask moderators to take down that post above. its untrue. i support the right of return, and consider religious states of any colour or creed to be dispicable!

as for the adventures in afghinastan, and other wars: i posted here, http://www.neworderonline.com/MessageList.aspx?ThreadID=14054 again, if you want do criticise anything in it, or make any points about it, follow the link, again, im not going to copy and paste it because its drastically off the point, the point being europe which, apart from a few minor asides, youve failed to deal with any facts. the army i was refering to was the planned EUROarmy, or rapid reaction force.

get it straight : if i dont support isreal, i dont necessaraly support arafat, or hamas. i said in all those posts (show me one where i diddnt) that its as unfortunate that israeli schoolkids get killed as kids on the west bank.

if i dont support bush/blair , i dont have to be a saddam supporter

if i dont support the war on terror, it doesnt mean i support terror

if i dont think british policy is / was correct in northern ireland, i dont have to support the ira either.

are you getting me? cause i dont think you do.

if i dont support the internationalisation of capitalism, im not a nationalist!

fitting name for an army: reaction.

So, Direct democracy?

Lets say on a local level. We all head down to the local town hall, or an outdoor venue for reasons of space. We al stand there, hold our hands up and wait to be heard. then we all go off and have a vote. Get a grip. Its not realistic. And how, with the information age would things work? We all go in a chatroom? We have everyones email address?

I cannot believe for the life of me that you think that direct democracy is not unworkable.

That's because you insist on speaking French