It appears that the Iraqis are, indeed, a peaceful, loving group. We should invite them to the next piss up...
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040511/325/etags.html
Give us your comments. But remember, play nice!
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ahhhh....such a fitting response...
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The terrorists are only going to accomplish an escalation of action against them. No matter how awful the torture was in the prison, we didn't kill them. This filmed beheading will only cause the military to track down these guys more viciously. All the while during we find the terrorists responsible, Bush's numbers will probably go up and will be re-elected.
I think the whole prison abuse scandel is atrocious, it shows the total arrogance of our current national mindset that we are somehow on the "moral highground" in this thing. As those pictures show, we can be as bad as the terrorists.
Now, does that mean what happens to our soldiers is deserved? Not by a long shot: they didn't ask for this war, they aren't asking to be looked upon as "western oppressors" anymore than Saddam wants the world to know he really didn't have any WMDs. The fact is, the brutality that's going on in Iraq is a direct failing of our strategy in that region. We went in there, guns blazing, and forgot that after the shooting stops is when the real work begins.
The prison in Baghdad is not My Lai, it's not Auschwitz, but it is pretty damn awful, and I think we just lost the moral edge in this battle. Thanks to Bush, the world is a much scarier place than it was four years ago.
Four years ago it was just as scary, and four years ago there was a fully functional terrorist machine in Al Qaeda running, but we have weakened it somewhat now. It may seem scarier now because of all the things in the news, but four years ago in retrospect was a much scarier time.
Originally posted by Tristan Jayol Four years ago it was just as scary, and four years ago there was a fully functional terrorist machine in Al Qaeda running, but we have weakened it somewhat now. It may seem scarier now because of all the things in the news, but four years ago in retrospect was a much scarier time.
I weren't talking about Al Qaeda...we pissed off a hell of a lot more Arabs than Bin Laden by now 
Anywho, get my e-mail? 
well for my tupence the editors of the rags that published those pictures no matter how disturbing have the blood of this poor american bloke on their hands. they knew full well the likely result of publishing these pictures at a time when we are at WAR. yes the abuse of iraqis is wrong ,we went there to liberate them not to birate them,but for fucks sake where is the common sense in these people,we have soldiers out there fighting. wether you agree we should be there or not it would be them same soldiers protecting us from any valid conflict so how can these people sit back in their little offices and play armchair moralists. if i had my way pierce morgan would have his fucking head cut off n all after the danger hes put our lot in . wanker.
Originally posted by Taboo # 7 > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> Four years ago it was just as scary, and four years ago there was a fully functional terrorist machine in Al Qaeda running, but we have weakened it somewhat now. It may seem scarier now because of all the things in the news, but four years ago in retrospect was a much scarier time.
I weren't talking about Al Qaeda...we pissed off a hell of a lot more Arabs than Bin Laden by now
Anywho, get my e-mail?
I got the e-mail and re-sent it. :)
The Arabs have been pissed for a while (not financially supporting Sadat, Israel, etc.); we are just continuing to piss them off. Our main problem was the strength of organized terrorism, and the strength of these groups is not as great as before. Anyways I just hope we can buckle down and get stable states in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Bush and hopefully not Cheney who needs to die from a heart attack already in '04
For what happened to that young boy from Philadelphia: :barf: ... literally... there's nothing else to add there that can make sense for me.
This war should have never have started in the first place, it was done based on false excuses (WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ANYONE ?) when it was only to adress the president's personal agenda; George W. Bush was elected only based on an electoral twist (fraud), and is leading your country to ruin.
My dear American friends, Fellows from the South,
Get rid of that administration before it's too late.
REALLY.
Originally posted by Take My Hand (And Don't Let Go) For what happened to that young boy from Philadelphia: :barf: ... literally... there's nothing else to add there that can make sense for me.This war should have never have started in the first place, it was done based on false excuses (WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION ANYONE ?) when it was only to adress the president's personal agenda; George W. Bush was elected only based on an electoral twist (fraud), and is leading your country to ruin.My dear American friends,Fellows from the South,Get rid of that administration before it's too late. REALLY.
Nope, he's staying. :p
Of course, that's not really all I can say...
Anybody who thinks Islam is a "religion of peace" (are you listening wee Georgie?) is a fucking moron who has obviously never heard of how Islam was spread in the first place. Muslims speak of jihad because their religion is based on killing in the name of their God. Which makes me laugh when they complain that crusaders invaded "their" land (First, Palestine was a christian land when Arab armies conquered it, only to then face invasion from the crusaders, who were trying to liberate Palestine from it's muslim conquerors. And probably pick up some spoils of war while they were at it. Second, it was 1000 fucking years ago you emotionally retarded morons. Get the fuck over it already.)
Having said all that, killing Americans who have invaded their country does not make the Iraqis terrorists. They're resisting an invading army. Is there anybody here who would collaborate with an army that invaded your country?
Nevertheless, that's not to say I think the killing is justified. It isn't. It's just sad, and shows the utter lack of moral values these killers have.
Originally posted by Tristan Jayol No matter how awful the torture was in the prison, we didn't kill them.
Uhh...I'd check the papers if I were you.
Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> No matter how awful the torture was in the prison, we didn't kill them.
Uhh...I'd check the papers if I were you. We killed the people in the certain prison where Iraqis were tortured? I may be mistaken, but I don't remember hearing the people were tortured to death.
Originally posted by Tristan Jayol > Originally posted by bLuE oRdEr> > > > Originally posted by Tristan Jayol> > No matter how awful the torture was in the prison, we didn't kill them.>
Uhh...I'd check the papers if I were you. We killed the people in the certain prison where Iraqis were tortured? I may be mistaken, but I don't remember hearing the people were tortured to death.
No, you're not mistaken. But the papers have mentioned thousands of pictures that haven't been shown yet, and have alluded that what hasn't come out yet will be much worse. I did see one photo of a dead Iraqi, who had obviously been beaten to death, in a body bag, covered with ice. NY Times, I think. Anyway, the news hasn't really come out yet, but they're preparing us for it, slowly.
Considering the whole escapade in Iraq smacks of a Bush clan vendetta, the killers could have at least had the decency to behead wee Georgie. Not that it would have damaged anything vital, mind.
Still, I guess I'd settle for the Bush twins coming over for some head.
I can understand the press to want to show those pictures, but as far as I know, there is a young man dead today because the press has shown those pictures...
Sure, there is no excuse for anything, but killing a civilian is pretty stupid.
It might be aweful, but it's no worse than 9-11 so far.
It's about time somebody in the mulism world put those bastards as heretics, there is no god that would accept such behavior (the Crusades were no better!)
This is why it is so difficult for me to understand this whole thing. I have never lived under an oppressive dictator, so I don't know how I would feel if another army came in to "free" me. How many of the Iraqi's felt that Saddam was a dictator? And while he might have been a dictator, at least he was a muslim. We are infidels, so we are invaders, much as the crusaders were. When I saw all the Iraqi's cheering as the statue of Saddam was toppled, I thought maybe we had done the right thing.
Now, as more and more young men and women are dying, and we keep hearing stories of abuse by our soldier, and more civilians are being killed, I begin to wonder. What if the COALITION simply said screw it, we were wrong, you had no weapons of mass destruction, and it doesn't appear that you lot want anything to do with democracy, so we are going home, and you kids can do whatever you want. Here, take Saddam, kill him, put him back in power, whatever, we don't care. Hell, maybe the middle east isn't ready for democracy. How many do they have? Egypt...maybe. Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, they are all ruled by kings, right?
And according to a friend of mine (from the area), while the Saudi's are considered to be close allies by the west, amongst the general population, the rulers are seen as corrupt and greedy. I don't know much about Kuwait, so I won't even try to discuss that one. Iran, well, that's a country governed by the religious leaders. Even though I have read that moderates are trying to assert themselves to a larger role, who knows?
Lebanon...well, that place has been a mess for as long as I can remember. Israel, well, the west made a huge mistake putting a Jewish homeland in the middle of an Islamic area. They are allegedly democratic, but will always be viewed as a threat by their neighbors.
I don't have an answer. I'm not sure anyone will ever have an answer. All I know is I'm getting somewhat tired of reading about all this. I am afraid that Dubya has backed us into a corner that we will never be able to get out of "gracefully". If we simply pull out, it will be viewed as a defeat, and the American psyche is not willing to deal with this. If we stay for years, it will simply look like we are trying to occupy a muslim country, and I don't feel that the muslims are willing to accept this.
Hmmmm....anybody have an idea on how to fix this?
Originally posted by Generic Hmmmm....anybody have an idea on how to fix this?
Stay the course
Originally posted by Generic Hmmmm....anybody have an idea on how to fix this?
First, George Bush has to go. He's a perennial fuck-up, and we can't afford him.
Second, we need to reevaluate Iraq's future. The notion of an "Iraqi" nation is a joke. The whole thing was held together by Saddam Hussein's sheer brutality. What we call "Iraq" is in reality at least three (and possibly more) separate peoples-- Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds-- and it's absolute fantasy to think that these people, all of whom hate each other, will live harmoniously together in a democratic republic. Pure Republican bullshit. Our next President needs to bring the international community into the administration of Iraq. Make Iraq a U.N. protectorate. Divide it into at least three regions (but as many regions as needed to make for internal harmony), each of which will remain a U.N. protectorate until it meets certain criteria for independence and self-governance. Something along the lines of the process for admission into the EU. The end result-- three or more independent nations, capable of self-governance and membership in the international community.
It's the only way out of the dilemma-- retreat, or entrench-- posed.
Perennial fuck up? Bush isn't my favorite guy in the world (Reagan is... only kidding), but Kerry politicks even more than Bush, and his past in the Senate isn't very glorious to say the least. So with Kerry we will cut the deficit in half, raise 10 million jobs, clean up the environment, lower gas prices, fix the problem in Iraq, and the conflicting list goes on. All I know is that Bush will stay in Iraq and attempt to finish the job there. With Kerry he would pull out and get the UN in there right away, and the UN is composed of nations with too many conflicting interests that they will likely bungle in Iraq. Kerry's domestic issues conflict, and his likely foreign policy also won't work. If there was a Democrat that had a clear sensible campaign I would like to get Bush out because of stupid border and tax decisions, but Bush would get my clothespin vote.
Vote for Nader; the Green Party needs the 5% vote for federal funding.
just saw the video...it was disturbing, to say the least...
and I have no more words for now...I am so enraged that anything I say would probably be inappropriate...and surely not well thought out...
Originally posted by Generic just saw the video...it was disturbing, to say the least...and I have no more words for now...I am so enraged that anything I say would probably be inappropriate...and surely not well thought out...
I saw the video too, and hell at the moment I saw the guy hold the head up, if you gave me a gun I'd be immediately off to Iraq.
Tristan...that is why I am holding my tongue for now...
the immediate response is to kill 'em all...but I know that isn't right...
Originally posted by mike powell well for my tupence the editors of the rags that published those pictures no matter how disturbing have the blood of this poor american bloke on their hands.they knew full well the likely result of publishing these pictures at a time when we are at WAR. yes the abuse of iraqis is wrong ,we went there to liberate them not to birate them,but for fucks sake where is the common sense in these people,we have soldiers out there fighting.wether you agree we should be there or not it would be them same soldiers protecting us from any valid conflict so how can these people sit back in their little offices and play armchair moralists.if i had my way pierce morgan would have his fucking head cut off n all after the danger hes put our lot in .wanker.
i think youre absolutely wrong here. ive no time for tabloids myself, and little for piers morgan, but a few points:
1)the abuse of iraqi prisoners was mooted as a reason to oust saddam. if it is continuing under the british/us occupation force, then the citizens of these nations deserve to see it (we saw plenty of pics of saddams brutality, why not our own)
2)who are we at war with?i thought iraq was free. terrorism is not something you can fight like state nazism. the "war" on terrorism is as much about winning potential recruits to violent organisations over,as it is to stopping those already in them. whilst theree have been some sucesses on the second objective, the "west" is clearly loosing on the first.
3)the mirror printing pictures means shit. do you think that people out in iraq are reading piers morgans daily? these photos would get out anyway, through the multitude of websites, tv stations, newspapers , etc , all in the arab world. maybe if "coalition forces" diddnt strip , bugger, attack with dogs, and kill ..... yes, murder the detainees under their watch, then there would be no problem with regard to photos.
although not the case here, a lot of the "civilians" who have been killed in iraq are private troops, on €1000 a day to trade in their horses for humvees and go round 'raq lookin for the shit.
beheading is sickening. lots of us/british supported dictatorships, or regiemes do it as a matter of course. executions are terrible, but what about the 250+ fried texans that bush signed off.
dont get divided. this isnt a case of us and them. the ordinary people of europe,the us etc, and the ordinary people of iraq, the mid east, have a common objective - peace, stability, and a world free of prison torture and metro bambs. the leaders of the weestern countries support those countries geo-political and socio/economic goals. when we see 911, we are horrified, and saddened, when our brothers and sisters in the middle east see a regieme formally supported by "us" being overthrown by use of wmds, they are horrified. the world is divided, and ruled. by the "holy warriors" or "terrorists", by the "infadels" or by the "civilised and free world".
the only "we", is we the common people of the world. the only "them", is them our rulers. in white caves ,and white houses. millionaire$ of the world have 1 objective:to divide and rule.
I didn't see the video and I've been asking myself if I'd want to see it all week, and I'm still not sure. I'm not sure I would cope with that, knowing that this time, it's the real thing.
This is something very heavy. How can these images not haunt you in your sleep ? 
:(
Anyway, I've been searching for it on google and haven'T found it.
Originally posted by Fish On Fire http://www.ogrish.com/click above....they have it...
I wish I didn't see it; I cannot get the image out of my head now. Especially just before I fall asleep. 
