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To kill or not to kill

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Do you agree with capital punishment?

Closed
  • Yes 9 (43%)
  • No 12 (57%)

21 votes · voting closed

It does exactly what it says on the tin folks. Personally I believe that criminals get a relatively easy deal from courts, certainly in Britain; we have a system in which rape is almost never proven, petty crime is treated as a acceptable part of modern life and murderers can serve as little as a few years for taking the life of another human being. I believe that prison sentences should be longer, that prison regimes should be far harsher, with prisoners used as labour forces without pay and that Corporal Punishment should be reinstituted for offences which may not necessarily necessitate a prison sentence, but which are crimes or relative significance, i.e. theft, criminal damage, petty 'hooliganism' etc. However, I cannot support the death penalty as I believe that to employ the greatest of all punishments one must have a perfect judicial system.

We all know that there is no perfect police force, no perfect judge and no perfect jury. We also know that there are police officers who are not above planting evidence in order to secure what they consider to be the right 'result'. What this means is that the execution of a human being could take place because one police officer decides, for whatever reason, that a person is guilty and that they will ensure their conviction; thus a person can be killed based upon the subjective decision of another person. This is simply state-legislated murder.

Now consider the nature of the Western judicial model: We have an adversarial system, and thus it is essentially a competition between opposing lawyers. Anybody who has any experience of any form with the judiciary knows that it is very often like watching a ball game and there are few lawyers who are above bending the rules to guarantee the 'result'. Once again, we have a life in jeopardy thanks to the subjective whim of another person. Now consider juries: Twelve people, essentially pressed into service, often not paying attention and always prone to the same subjective and irrational responses which make a person human. One can call upon a single juror, twelve or twelve million, one still cannot guarantee the right result and therein lies the single and greatest flaw with Capital Punishment: It is irreversible. If the jury makes a mistake, or if the police do so, or the judge, or the pathologists, or the psychologists or the lawyers a person will be dead and there will be no way to reverse that. One crime will thus become two crimes and what purpose will that solve? Will it bring the first victim back to life? Will it ease the suffering of the living? Will it get a criminal off the streets? No. All it will do is sate the bloodlust of a society more interested in having it's fear assuaged, rather than attending to the simple issue of true justice.

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I voted NO...but I would say there are one or two exceptions.....people who are as bad as animals who one would put down, there are few killers so vicious and so twisted that really dispatching them might be for the best, even for them. As a gernal rule tho, no....it makes those who do it just as guilty, and is an easier way out than life inside for the criminal.

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Yes. If it was executed (no pun intended) on a regular basis for crimes of murder, then maybe people would think twice about killing someone. At least there might be fewer kids having to be told that mommy or daddy won't be coming home tonight, or ever....

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Ironwill wrote: Yes. If it was executed (no pun intended) on a regular basis for crimes of murder, then maybe people would think twice about killing someone. At least there might be fewer kids having to be told that mommy or daddy won't be coming home tonight, or ever....

I dunno....I for one, would be far more scared of actual life in prison. Maybe I am atypical in this?

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Certainly, this is an issue that will deeply divide people, and give passionate responses

My problem is that, while I can certainly see why people are Pro, questions remain:

Does that make us just as bad as the person who's being killed?

Is state violence ever justified, when they are supposed to be the moral guardians?

If we are supposed to be civilised, why degrade ourselves by bringing overselves down to a criminal's level?

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Steve Campbell wrote:

I dunno....I for one, would be far more scared of actual life in prison. Maybe I am atypical in this?

I would. Fretting your life away behind four walls with no privilages whatsoever...

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Christopher Owens wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote:

I dunno....I for one, would be far more scared of actual life in prison. Maybe I am atypical in this?

I would. Fretting your life away behind four walls with no privilages whatsoever...

Don't know about European prisons but here in the states, there is regular recreation time and social time for all but the hardest of criminals. Even those get 1 hour a day of recreation time by themselves. Some prisons even have cable TV in individual cells. Prisoners even get access to schooling and lawyers and get to read books from the library.

The only thing I'd be worried about in prison is getting my ass reamed by some guy named Tiny.

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Ironwill wrote:

Don't know about European prisons but here in the states, there is regular recreation time and social time for all but the hardest of criminals. Even those get 1 hour a day of recreation time by themselves. Some prisons even have cable TV in individual cells. Prisoners even get access to schooling and lawyers and get to read books from the library.

The only thing I'd be worried about in prison is getting my ass reamed by some guy named Tiny.

Similar to European prisons. Personally, I would want the prison systems to deny privilages such as these to the prisoners, as jail means nothing to most these days, bar a holiday camp.

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in principle No.

chain gangs. hard fking manual labour. sorry. no perks, no tattoo parlours. three basic bites to eat. paint the town, get the roads back in shape, build a railway, clean up the docks.

the idea that fine kill me, but mess with friends, family or any animal for say- fur coat- sure fine, kill them. state taxes shouldn't have to $for a break. when health care, educatioin etc. could use the funds far more constructively.

would make people stop and amybe think things through. but maybe those that kill aren't say, thinking too clearly.

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Christopher Owens wrote:

Ironwill wrote:

Don't know about European prisons but here in the states, there is regular recreation time and social time for all but the hardest of criminals. Even those get 1 hour a day of recreation time by themselves. Some prisons even have cable TV in individual cells. Prisoners even get access to schooling and lawyers and get to read books from the library.

The only thing I'd be worried about in prison is getting my ass reamed by some guy named Tiny.

Similar to European prisons. Personally, I would want the prison systems to deny privilages such as these to the prisoners, as jail means nothing to most these days, bar a holiday camp.

Well I have no problem with all but the most violent having access to training and books, it does do more good when they get out. But cable tv? Fuck right off. Add an internet connection and you have my current life FFS. I spend all day every day in a small room, and I'd be glad of even an hour outside.

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STeve is it not a bit naughty to describe them as ANIMALS.Animals usually have a good reason to KILL.I know some act a little over the top but as to the question of KILLERS and the EVIL ones.It is tough to be SURE.But over in BRITAIN we do seem to be on the side of the BADDIES.Think we need a JOHN WAYNE type over here or RAMBO.Maybe CHARLIE BRONSON too. I will give this careful consideration before i murder my next DHSS officer.Give us a JOB.Bastards.:nono:

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No. maybe an option for suicide if the convicted wants it... but no because society can not enforce these laws and punishments fairly, nor do i think they ever will be able to do so. not that warehousing people forever is much good either, but there is no great answer here

and I do not think it is a deters extreme crime either, who makes decisions to kill and be brutal to people based on rational arguements... "you know, it was worth it raping and killing those 5 boys because at least I didn't get the death penalty"... all such extreme behavior is pretty much mental illness anyway, not that I'm saying that theys hould be forgiven

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Hell, one of the primary arguments in favor of execution in the States is that it cuts down on the costs of housing so many cons in the bursting federal penetentiaries.

Actually, condeming one to execution here costs more than it would to throw them in prison until the end of time. The process takes years and years in order for the convict to be able to go through the extremely expensive and time-consuming appeals process. See: Tookie Williams

Of course, the New Right solution to this is "Get rid of due process!(snickersnicker)"

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Hannett of the Apes wrote: (that execution) cuts down on the costs of housing so many cons in the bursting federal penetentiaries.

yeah read that both options pretty much $break even. and also that an -eye-for-an-eye could leave everyone blind

just that if someone thinks that they can go out and rape and pillage or commit heinous crimes more than on the one-off-sorry went bezek trip - w/out the recognition or apology.. then look. biggest, smartest crimes from boredom? build equal Universities. build one brick at a time. with bare hands. make jobs not dead-end. give art, a purpose, financial hope. not everything 'bout ekonomiKs and politiks.


Right solution to this is "Get rid of due process!(snickersnicker)"


sorry, messed up the quote fnct. if the they think that they can cull animals that will take care of it themselves- then why not thin out the population. non sequitur.-the current situation doesn't follow. this has to do with unquantifiable love for JD/ NO ?

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I say if you're going to cull, do it in an economical manner. Offer clemency to condemned cons willing to serve four or five years in the military doing the most dangerous jobs. You'll be killing two Israeli M1A1s with one rock there.

I wrote some semi-serious article that never went anywhere about a similar system for illegal immigrants. Offer no-catches full citizenship to one and one's immediate kin for two years in the armed forces. Organize them into a Foederati regiment. Nevermind what happened with the original foederati and their leaders.

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no on principle.

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Hannett of the Apes wrote: I say if you're going to cull, do it in an economical manner. Offer clemency

proper Clemency can work- just when the Hooky debacle went on, as it has and will again, can make you want to inject SchwartZneggar with a burning cold. sorry. it hurts and is disrespectful of everything that we're supposed to value.

realized what- I've said sorry. if fairly convicted- then off to hard work or the mine field you go.

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Yes- defo, government could kill a pedophile a day for all i care, although going off the BT report today we would need a lot of days. This place has gone well soft on far too many rules, you need some sort of deterrent. If people still kill after that well fook em' really

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Can't decide.

On the one hand, I have serious qualms about giving the State the authority to take life. Also, the arguments in favor of the death penalty are complete bollox. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it has any sort of deterrent effect at all. There is a lot of evidence, however, that innocent people have been senetenced to death, and there is a lot of evidence that your socioeconomic status determines the sentencing outcome.

On the other hand, maybe some people are just too sociopathic to live in society, and perhaps just don't belong here. Sure, we could house them in prison for the rest of their lives, but is that kinder than death? Is it fair to make society shoulder the financial burden of life imprisonment?

I don't know.

Roll call of the condemned: Jesus, Socrates, Giordano Bruno

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Karlaa Holmokkka not even going to give the decency to spell her name correctly. that I've brought the name out. I am sorry.

if a fraction of the $ uised towards prisons was put toward housing. if justice were say just? the when people mess up badly they'd have chance at a fair trial. and maybe change. if not inject, chair fast efficient use of funds. :dead:

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Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Can't decide.

On the one hand, I have serious qualms about giving the State the authority to take life. Also, the arguments in favor of the death penalty are complete bollox. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it has any sort of deterrent effect at all. There is a lot of evidence, however, that innocent people have been senetenced to death, and there is a lot of evidence that your socioeconomic status determines the sentencing outcome.

On the other hand, maybe some people are just too sociopathic to live in society, and perhaps just don't belong here. Sure, we could house them in prison for the rest of their lives, but is that kinder than death? Is it fair to make society shoulder the financial burden of life imprisonment?

I don't know.

Roll call of the condemned: Jesus, Socrates, Giordano Bruno

who are we to decide who lives and who dies, and which life is a burdon on society.

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In some cases i would agree with the death penalty but mistakes can't be rectified. I do, however, think we need to look at our sentencing system. Life should mean life, and priveleges should be few and far between.

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Definitely not.

Not in any civilised society.

I've never understood the logic behind such sentencing either. Bloke A kills Bloke B in a row, so we then employ bloke C to legally (legally?) hang (or whatever?) Bloke A cos he's murdered someone. So now Bloke C's taken a life as well?! But that's alright cos he's allowed to do it.

And who would we have been hanging the past 30 years in the UK if we still had the right?! Er, lots of Irish, obviously, on both sides. Loads of the buggers. Oh right, so that would really have helped calm the situation.

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A valid pint Mr Jarvis.

Doubly so given the unfortunate tendency for many of the police forces responsible for investigating the vile acts of my countrymen, to grab the first bunch of bitter looking paddies they ran accross and fit em up a treat :D

Like I said, for me, there MAY be a justification for executiuon in the MOST extreme and certain of cases...yer actual "wild dog" type. But your point does remind me, that state power is political power, and state killings are political killings....you need only look at how much more likely a black geezer who tops a white one is to get offed in the US, then were the situation reversed (a white guy who offs a black guy, gets promoted to detective :D )

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Comrade Shampanyov wrote: Can't decide.

On the one hand, I have serious qualms about giving the State the authority to take life. Also, the arguments in favor of the death penalty are complete bollox. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it has any sort of deterrent effect at all. There is a lot of evidence, however, that innocent people have been senetenced to death, and there is a lot of evidence that your socioeconomic status determines the sentencing outcome.

i completely agree with you on these two points, which is why i am opposed to the death penalty. and as far as using the death penalty as a deterrent: if it's such a deterrent then why do the states that use it most also have the highest rates of violent crime?

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A few men sentanced to jail until the end of their days have demanded to be killed (as there is no more death penalty here since 1981).

As I am no believer, suicide can be an option. The problem is that they want to be killed and cannot commit suicide. They expect someone else to take their lives away... Good point even if I do not find it fair...

As the others... Well, some could be shot down in the streets if they do not want to surrender. The policemen should be relaxed... How many of them do wear a gun everyday without having the chance to shoot someone in an entire policeman's life ? (Do you think they want to be policemen to give fines to people or save Grandma's kitty in a tree ?) This could prevent them to kill innocent people because the need of pulling the trigger is too difficult to refrain... As far as you do not need to flee if you are not guilty...

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Steve Campbell wrote: A valid pint

Good name for a pub.

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Comrade Shampanyov wrote:

Steve Campbell wrote: A valid pint

Good name for a pub.

perhaps in a law school?

i used to eat in the snack bar at columbia law before one of my classes, which was held in the building. the snack bar's name: the alibi.

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Most circumstances no, there are always gonna be the horrific idiots like the BTK killer who probably deserve it though. Of course, I would imagine that not too many people shed a tear when Dahmer was beaten to death in prison, saved the state a lot of money in the long run.

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c'mon. i'm sure you were crying your eyes out when they put that sweet ted bundy to death. ;)

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