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I've posted this link to a piece by Ralph Peters. After I read it, I couldn't help but think of you.... and Hello Kitty. Anyway, I would like to know what your take is.
I've read other folks who tap dance around the issue of Arab democracy. However, I've never seen such a fine point put on the subject.
Thanks,
:)
C-Ro wrote: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/arabs_last_chance_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm
Thanks. I can really suck at internetting.....
Tex wrote:
C-Ro wrote: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/arabs_last_chance_opedcolumnists_ralph_peters.htm
Thanks. I can really suck at internetting.....
You should write to Ted Stevens and get some professional advice.
I do have to say this article hits the nail on the head. I think this is the best write-up on the issues and simply put as well. The only issue with it is that, on a small scale, I have seen the Iraqi people "trying" to stand-up for themselves...but it's something that they aren't used to, so it's not consistant. A minor point, as this is a really good article.
JHC
i knew what was coming when i saw 'new york post' attached to the link. strange that many iraqis now look upon the saddam hussein years, as brutal as they were, as halcyon days; they knew what line not to cross. now there's no line, simply chaos. as for israel being a successful democracy (as peters notes), that's simply nonsense. israel maintains the equivalent of jim crow laws for its arab citizens.
perhaps tribal loyalties are more important than policies to many arabs (sounds a bit like the american system, you know?), but blowing a country back to the middle ages and maintaining a 'my way or the highway' attitude towards democracy (what if an anti-american party comes to power? will the US accept this new democracy with pride?) isn't going to create a stable nation or plant the seeds for a successful democracy. ralph peters says, 'if iraqis are unwilling to grasp the opportunity our soldiers and marines bought them with american blood, it's their tragedy, not ours.' i prefer colin powell's words: 'if you break it, you own it.'
"Arab states are another story: Their social, political, economic and cultural structures leave them catastrophically uncompetitive with the developed world."
I like this part... and some others are good as well.
AgentWood wrote: i knew what was coming when i saw 'new york post' attached to the link. strange that many iraqis now look upon the saddam hussein years, as brutal as they were, as halcyon days; they knew what line not to cross. now there's no line, simply chaos. as for israel being a successful democracy (as peters notes), that's simply nonsense. israel maintains the equivalent of jim crow laws for its arab citizens.
perhaps tribal loyalties are more important than policies to many arabs (sounds a bit like the american system, you know?), but blowing a country back to the middle ages and maintaining a 'my way or the highway' attitude towards democracy (what if an anti-american party comes to power? will the US accept this new democracy with pride?) isn't going to create a stable nation or plant the seeds for a successful democracy. ralph peters says, 'if iraqis are unwilling to grasp the opportunity our soldiers and marines bought them with american blood, it's their tragedy, not ours.' i prefer colin powell's words: 'if you break it, you own it.'
AW, I agree with Isreal not being a successful democracy in an "American Democracy" way, but I fail to see it in the article. What point are you refering to? (Never mind, I found it).
Not sure Iraq was "blown back to the Middle Ages", as it was already inthe middle ages. Regardless, I do see your point.
JHC
Iraq was in the middle ages, but created not only WOMADS that could be launched at anywhere on earth in 15 mins....but INVISIBLE ones at that.
Democracy in the US and UK do not exist, you can only vote for two microscopically different and equally evil choices in either country. Which party should I vote for, who will legalize weed and stop using my taxes to turn little brown babies into chucky fuckin salsa? Oh there isn;t one...well then guess Iam JUSt as oppressed as any Iraqi ever was then aint I.
When I stated that Iraq has never left the middle ages, I was not talking about the education level or military level of the aristocrate, but rather the society as a whole.
With that inmind, if you truely believe that Britian and the US are anywhere similar in the scope of democracy within the ME, then I highly suggest to take a trip and see how these people live. It is completely foreign to our line of thinking. I'm sure Agent Wood would back me up on this.
JHC
Yes but imposing a foreign system on them by bombing the shit out of anything that moves ( or doesn't) sounds totally against the principles of democracy to me.
I would LOVE them to vote for Saddam, just to see how the US double thought it's way out of it. Democracy is amazing as long as we like who you voted for eh?
In the UK we really DID let the bad guys get elected, including well known terrorist commanders....pissed a hell of a lot of people off, and never sat too easy with me, but it seemed to work out as intended as far as I can tell, and it's been a while since any sizable portions of Bangor turned to rubble overnight.
I think there is one issue withthis line of thought though. Democracy (over the long haul)strengthens human rights, freedoms, education, and opportunities. Granted there are instances where democracy has caused issues, but on the big-picture, in the course of human government evolution, democracy has allowed for the flourishment of humankind.
Was intervening into the ME to "force" a democracy a worthwhile venture? Onlythe future will show us. However, I do have extreme reservations that the ME would ever change it's form of politics with out some use of force.
JHC
The thing is, there is a findamental logical paradox in the imposition of anything in the name of freedom. And therein lies why folks out yonder do not much like us, much to the bafflement of many, especially on your side of the pond.
68Pontiac wrote: Please explain. Interested in what you mean.
JHC
Well, If sometone comes along and tells me, that i must change my way of life to more closely match theirs, does so by force, by violence and oppression, and tells me that they have done this in order to increase my personal freedoms, I'm going to consider that person either evil or intensely stupid or both.
You are free....to do exactly as we tell you.
Surely you can see it makes no sense.
Doctor? wrote:
68Pontiac wrote: Please explain. Interested in what you mean.
JHC
Well, If sometone comes along and tells me, that i must change my way of life to more closely match theirs, does so by force, by violence and oppression, and tells me that they have done this in order to increase my personal freedoms, I'm going to consider that person either evil or intensely stupid or both.
You are free....to do exactly as we tell you.
Surely you can see it makes no sense.
I went to a Muslim wedding today, briefly. (WITHOUT NO FUCKING BEER EITHER!)
I got told exactly the same thing. 'We have a better way of life' etc etc, yadayadayada...
I told them to fuck off too, and found a pub.
No force involved though.
Burt Reynolds wrote: Is there a difference between 'imposed democracy' and 'imperialism'??
Discuss
Ahhh, the great conundrum. I think democracy is "for the People" so it needs to be started "by the People". The main problem is we haven't found a proper way to introduce Democracy into an area void of freedoms. Which is a great paradox: Democracy is hinged on freedom; which is hinged on knowledge and learning; which is hinged on peace; which is hinged on social and governmental prosperity.
The circle goes round, but where do you start the transition for an area that has none of these.
JHC
Exactly, they had thier fun, you had yours, no bugger got bombed (except in the 27 pints of stella sense).
I mean I find the idea of a wedding sans booze to be morally repulsive, but I'm not about to start spiking Muslim weddings with poteen :D
Democracy is hinged on freedom; which is hinged on knowledge and learning; which is hinged on peace; which is hinged on social and governmental prosperity.
Depends on your definition of freedom. Freedom from want and desire of basic neccessities or freedom to choose your own destiny? And as long as the AK is cheap and plentiful democracy is a trigger pull away in some places.
Sure Iraq had a vibrant middle class where people knew their boundaries, especially the Kurds and the Shiites.... Saddam kept the power on and the trains on time.
Twist, singer of the Blessing Way wrote:
Democracy is hinged on freedom; which is hinged on knowledge and learning; which is hinged on peace; which is hinged on social and governmental prosperity.
Depends on your definition of freedom. Freedom from want and desire of basic neccessities or freedom to choose your own destiny? And as long as the AK is cheap and plentiful democracy is a trigger pull away in some places.
Sure Iraq had a vibrant middle class where people knew their boundaries, especially the Kurds and the Shiites.... Saddam kept the power on and the trains on time.
By the way you make it sound, Iraq was just like any town in the US or UK. A bit silly me thinks. Vibrant middle class??? Hahahahahaha that is a good one.
JHC
Iraq was not a poor nation. By Middle Eastern standards they were doing good with the exceptions of those religious or ethnic volks that Saddam did not like. Not comparing them to the US or UK but they were better off before the wars. The transitionof post Saddam Iraq is what hurts.
Twist, singer of the Blessing Way wrote: Iraq was not a poor nation. By Middle Eastern standards they were doing good with the exceptions of those religious or ethnic volks that Saddam did not like. Not comparing them to the US or UK but they were better off before the wars. The transitionof post Saddam Iraq is what hurts.
When it comes to economics for less than 1/3 the population, you are right. But the majority of the population was in fear, living in really poor conditions.
Baghdad is worse off, as are many cities in the Al Anbar Province, but there are many cities in Southern Iraq that are doing fairly well (in loose terms). This of course doesn't balance it out, but when has the media ever taken their eyes off the Anbar area and said what is going on in other parts of the country?
JHC
I do not remember which philosopher worked on this issue : "the fear of the slave (or of the human being who has been living under a dictatorship) who gets free". (Since I am stuck at home on the sick my memories weakens a bit everyday) Anyway, I like to think about it when I watch the news or better read it. And, in our contempory history, we can see a lot of examples. I think middle and lower classes are the ones that suffer the most these changes.
Jiphy wrote: I do not remember which philosopher worked on this issue : "the fear of the slave (or of the human being who has been living under a dictatorship) who gets free". (Since I am stuck at home on the sick my memories weakens a bit everyday) Anyway, I like to think about it when I watch the news or better read it. And, in our contempory history, we can see a lot of examples. I think middle and lower classes are the ones that suffer the most these changes.
Hegel?
Jiphy wrote: I do not remember which philosopher worked on this issue : "the fear of the slave (or of the human being who has been living under a dictatorship) who gets free". (Since I am stuck at home on the sick my memories weakens a bit everyday) Anyway, I like to think about it when I watch the news or better read it. And, in our contempory history, we can see a lot of examples. I think middle and lower classes are the ones that suffer the most these changes.
True for any confrotation, the upper class rarely get the stiff end.
JHC
68Pontiac wrote:
Jiphy wrote: I do not remember which philosopher worked on this issue : "the fear of the slave (or of the human being who has been living under a dictatorship) who gets free". (Since I am stuck at home on the sick my memories weakens a bit everyday) Anyway, I like to think about it when I watch the news or better read it. And, in our contempory history, we can see a lot of examples. I think middle and lower classes are the ones that suffer the most these changes.
True for any confrotation, the upper class rarely get the stiff end.
JHC
As well we shouldn't. 
