Another school shootout.. in Montreal today...

Sad to see that the Columbine copycats are all over now.

I'd like to add that I was at my desk in work today when I first heard about this news. I have a special connection to Montreal you see, as my great great grandmother's uncle once farted in some poutine there.

I really feel it.

That's awful, I've not heard about that.

adly it seems to happen all to often these days.

Shellshocker wrote: Sad to see that the Columbine copycats are all over now.

Columbine wasn't the first time someone shot up a school. Bob Geldof made a lot of money off of someone doing it ages ago.

C-Ro wrote: I'd like to add that I was at my desk in work today when I first heard about this news. I have a special connection to Montreal you see, as my great great grandmother's uncle once farted in some poutine there.

I really feel it.

Aaah, so that's what you meant.Sorry i read you wrong

Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

EdelBrock wrote: Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

Wow... sir, are you an advocate of violence? :)

No, no

But I think fights are SOMETIMES a part of life at a young age. Bullies and those defending themselves should not be treated equally.....that makes as much sense as jailing the thief and the victim of the thief with the same sentence. What sense is that?

someone once said: Living well is the best revenge.

Missy Jem wrote:

Sadly it seems to happen all to often these days.

What frequency is right for this kind of thing then?

I'd say two a year worldwide would be the minimum. How many is too often?

EdelBrock wrote: Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

I agree with you, partially. When I was a freshman and sophomore in high school, this group of guys in my homeroom always made fun of me. In one incident, I was reading an issue of Circus magazine for it's article on Smashing pumpkins and they started calling me a satanist and devil worshipper, over and over. The teacher didn't seem to see anything, so I just lifted up my desk and moved it behind a filing cabinet. The teacher then asks me, "What's wrong?" As a sophomore, those same kids were calling me a "faggot" and "homo" during an assembly, but instead of turning around to punch them, I told the teacher this time. The teacher basically said, "What do you expect me to do? If you don't like this advisory, go to another homeroom." A month or so later, one of those guys started harasshing me in homeroom again. After the teacher left the room, I just turned around and punched him. When the teacher came back, the entire homeroom is telling him I punched this kid. The teacher says, "I didn't see anything." The kid no longer messed with me for the rest of the year and for the next two years.

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

That's sad. But on the other hand you were not in a school. You were in a university, an adult among adults, so that teacher probably thought it wasn't right to give an adult an advice. Well typical human indifference... :(

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

That's sad. But on the other hand you were not in a school. You were in a university, an adult among adults, so that teacher probably thought it wasn't right to give an adult an advice. Well typical human indifference... :(

This wasn't at a university. This was back when I used to go to a public high school back in Philadelphia.

In Montreal it was pretty disturbing today. It was also pretty brutal here, we had 2 apparent suicide/murders (love related) in Toronto. I think it's all a result of individuals who become fairly imbalanced upstairs while no one else seems to notice until it's too late. Not saying it's anyone's fault but just by the population/numbers this is bound to happen somewhere on the planet every few minutes. It's really hard to know what's going on in anyone's head let alone someone who is usually very private.

Still it's very sad for the victims who have nothing to do with the person's mental health.

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

|| | ||| 6217|| 8 || 3 wrote:

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

That's sad. But on the other hand you were not in a school. You were in a university, an adult among adults, so that teacher probably thought it wasn't right to give an adult an advice. Well typical human indifference... :(

This wasn't at a university. This was back when I used to go to a public high school back in Philadelphia.

and you know, I have noticed too many times that a fight stops instances like you described fast...sometimes resulting in some good friendships....whereas, nonviolence only eggs it on.

Might have been an indifferent teacher, but at least he allowed for you to handle it on your own...not do a reversal because physical violence became involved. I'd prefer a teacher like that any day over the over-protective ones my son has now.

Diamond White wrote:

Missy Jem wrote:

Sadly it seems to happen all to often these days.

What frequency is right for this kind of thing then?

I'd say two a year worldwide would be the minimum. How many is too often?

Once is too often, what I was trying to say is that it's happened before and will happen again - very sad.

EdelBrock wrote:

I'd prefer a teacher like that any day over the over-protective ones my son has now.

Show that teacher some violence, ha ha

EdelBrock wrote: Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

I was picked on heavily in elementary school, right up through about the last two years of high school. Varying degrees, and in high school, it became much more covert (rumor spreading, sigh..) instead of the straight up namecalling, prejudice and practical jokes that permiated my elementary/middle school experience. I was too a victim of the "No Violence, PERIOD", PC bullshit that permiated the 1990s. In the 5th grade, as I recall, I tried to stand up to bullies, only to end up in a special class for kids with emotional issues , as the other kids did have some behavioral problems, some I believe were bullies themselves!

Maybe it would have been better if I could've defended myself, instead of shrugging and saying "Success is the best revenge". Developed a thicker skin, not carrying so much internal anger and hostility at the world, etc.

I blame it on music

In my day we all listened to the Smiths and wished girls would speak to us. These days it's all guns and dry anal rape.

Spotnick wrote: ...the worst bully in our year was picking on me...

Any idea where he lives now, Nic?

The mobile phone footage was crap.

someone have a shaky hand or something.

I always thought Canada was ultra safe and they did`nt have a gun problem. Obviously an American on holiday...

...(joke).

not to make light of this but on the news last night they interviewed a girl that was there, she was probably around 19, she said "i saw this guy with big black boots, a long black jacket and a retarded haircut, carrying a machine gun..."

at least they killed the Ba$tard, has anyone died?

J.A.K wrote: The mobile phone footage was crap.

someone have a shaky hand or something.

hahahhahahah you'd have thought they were being shot at or something!

The Steve One Side Project wrote: I always thought Canada was ultra safe and they did`nt have a gun problem. Obviously an American on holiday...

more guns per person in Canada!

Oh they've gone one step further now. It's not just music's fault... It's now a website's fault!!!

http://vampirefreaks.com/ is the one to blame today.

Joy Division

and Bauhaus's fault.

Radiohead??

That's the guy that did the shooting?

Looks like a rap fan

Diamond White wrote:

Spotnick wrote: ...the worst bully in our year was picking on me...

Any idea where he lives now, Nic?

Yeah, he's Prime Minister of Canada.

Vik D - Serotonin wrote: Oh they've gone one step further now. It's not just music's fault... It's now a website's fault!!!

http://vampirefreaks.com/ is the one to blame today.

Obviously a guy who needed to get out a bit more....what a fucktard

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

I agree with you, partially. When I was a freshman and sophomore in high school, this group of guys in my homeroom always made fun of me. In one incident, I was reading an issue of Circus magazine for it's article on Smashing pumpkins and they started calling me a satanist and devil worshipper, over and over. The teacher didn't seem to see anything, so I just lifted up my desk and moved it behind a filing cabinet. The teacher then asks me, "What's wrong?" As a sophomore, those same kids were calling me a "faggot" and "homo" during an assembly, but instead of turning around to punch them, I told the teacher this time. The teacher basically said, "What do you expect me to do? If you don't like this advisory, go to another homeroom." A month or so later, one of those guys started harasshing me in homeroom again. After the teacher left the room, I just turned around and punched him. When the teacher came back, the entire homeroom is telling him I punched this kid. The teacher says, "I didn't see anything." The kid no longer messed with me for the rest of the year and for the next two years.

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

Schools are, on the whole, ghastly places. I wonder if its the case that US (and perhaps Canadian) ones are more ghastly than UK ones though? As horrible as my school days were there never seemed to be the kind of cliquiness (goddam how do you spell that word?) that always seems to be shown in portrayals of US schools, nor the degree of insane sports worship and homophobia. Is that an accurate view of US schools or is it just the way it looks in the movies and TV shows? My memory of it is as just a collection of equally messed up indviduals fighting each other on a roughly equal basis. No 'jocks' or 'in-crowd' or any of that. Plus, if you really didn't like it you didn't have to turn up anyway. Most of the boys dropped out alltogether after about 13, and I used to bunk off for weeks at a time (nothing very useful ever seemed to happen in the classroom anyway).

In short, is there a connection between all these shootings and this macho, cliquey, jock worshipping culture that US (or Canadaian) schools are shown in the media has having? Or is it just that they have the guns?

404 error wrote:

Schools are, on the whole, ghastly places. I wonder if its the case that US (and perhaps Canadian) ones are more ghastly than UK ones though? As horrible as my school days were there never seemed to be the kind of cliquiness (goddam how do you spell that word?) that always seems to be shown in portrayals of US schools, nor the degree of insane sports worship and homophobia. Is that an accurate view of US schools or is it just the way it looks in the movies and TV shows? My memory of it is as just a collection of equally messed up indviduals fighting each other on a roughly equal basis. No 'jocks' or 'in-crowd' or any of that. Plus, if you really didn't like it you didn't have to turn up anyway. Most of the boys dropped out alltogether after about 13, and I used to bunk off for weeks at a time (nothing very useful ever seemed to happen in the classroom anyway).

I guess I was lucky. I was not at all cool, but I never got picked on by jocks or cool kids. I stayed out of their way and they stayed out of mine. I get the impression that the answer to your question is yes, US schools are pretty clique-ey (sp?) with the jocks, beautiful people, and other popular kids generally not letting the braniacs, nerds, and other popluar kids in their cliques. TV may exaggerate it a bit, but as near as I can tell, it's fairly accurate. But what the hell do I know, it's beeen so long since I was in high school. I hear they even have computers nowadays.

Shellshocker wrote:

404 error wrote:

Schools are, on the whole, ghastly places. I wonder if its the case that US (and perhaps Canadian) ones are more ghastly than UK ones though? As horrible as my school days were there never seemed to be the kind of cliquiness (goddam how do you spell that word?) that always seems to be shown in portrayals of US schools, nor the degree of insane sports worship and homophobia. Is that an accurate view of US schools or is it just the way it looks in the movies and TV shows? My memory of it is as just a collection of equally messed up indviduals fighting each other on a roughly equal basis. No 'jocks' or 'in-crowd' or any of that. Plus, if you really didn't like it you didn't have to turn up anyway. Most of the boys dropped out alltogether after about 13, and I used to bunk off for weeks at a time (nothing very useful ever seemed to happen in the classroom anyway).

I guess I was lucky. I was not at all cool, but I never got picked on by jocks or cool kids. I stayed out of their way and they stayed out of mine. I get the impression that the answer to your question is yes, US schools are pretty clique-ey (sp?) with the jocks, beautiful people, and other popular kids generally not letting the braniacs, nerds, and other popluar kids in their cliques. TV may exaggerate it a bit, but as near as I can tell, it's fairly accurate. But what the hell do I know, it's beeen so long since I was in high school. I hear they even have computers nowadays.

I think the cliqueness (is that a real word?) is there, but it's exaggerated on the TV, because kids exaggerate their dillemas....it's how it FEELS to them, I'm thinking. I punish my kids nowadays, and when I do it's not that big of a deal from my point of view, but they act just like I did when I was a kid....it was the end of the world. The one thing the TV does, though, is it takes 4 years worth of stuff that happens to everyone during that time and potrays it as if it happens all in one day....but then again, I think that's how kids feel....

Definately no excuse to draw a weapon though

404 error wrote:

This blue-eyed boy that wants to be wrote:

EdelBrock wrote: Now maybe this doesn't apply to these guys as they are in universities...but does anyone think these think these shootings are linked to "no fighting" policies on schoolgrounds?

When I was a kid, if someone picked on you, you got in a fight. If the teacher found out about the fight, the bully got punished and nothing happened to the one defending themselves.

Nowadays, if anyone gets into a fight, they both get in the same amount of trouble. No matter the reason.

It seems that this would lead to the kids being bullied to not stand up for themselves, push these feelings down deep only later to explode into a Columbine incident.

Just a thought.

I agree with you, partially. When I was a freshman and sophomore in high school, this group of guys in my homeroom always made fun of me. In one incident, I was reading an issue of Circus magazine for it's article on Smashing pumpkins and they started calling me a satanist and devil worshipper, over and over. The teacher didn't seem to see anything, so I just lifted up my desk and moved it behind a filing cabinet. The teacher then asks me, "What's wrong?" As a sophomore, those same kids were calling me a "faggot" and "homo" during an assembly, but instead of turning around to punch them, I told the teacher this time. The teacher basically said, "What do you expect me to do? If you don't like this advisory, go to another homeroom." A month or so later, one of those guys started harasshing me in homeroom again. After the teacher left the room, I just turned around and punched him. When the teacher came back, the entire homeroom is telling him I punched this kid. The teacher says, "I didn't see anything." The kid no longer messed with me for the rest of the year and for the next two years.

Now, I eventually got pushed, but not enough to bring guns to school and shoot everyone. I did get pushed, especially after this teacher wasn't listening to me and told me that it's not his problem.

Schools are, on the whole, ghastly places. I wonder if its the case that US (and perhaps Canadian) ones are more ghastly than UK ones though? As horrible as my school days were there never seemed to be the kind of cliquiness (goddam how do you spell that word?) that always seems to be shown in portrayals of US schools, nor the degree of insane sports worship and homophobia. Is that an accurate view of US schools or is it just the way it looks in the movies and TV shows? My memory of it is as just a collection of equally messed up indviduals fighting each other on a roughly equal basis. No 'jocks' or 'in-crowd' or any of that. Plus, if you really didn't like it you didn't have to turn up anyway. Most of the boys dropped out alltogether after about 13, and I used to bunk off for weeks at a time (nothing very useful ever seemed to happen in the classroom anyway).

In short, is there a connection between all these shootings and this macho, cliquey, jock worshipping culture that US (or Canadaian) schools are shown in the media has having? Or is it just that they have the guns?

My high school experience was nothing like what I've seen on TV. There was cliquishness, but it wasn't a bunch of popular, beautiful cool kids excluding everyone. I went to a large urban high school - while most high schools on TV are depicted in the peaceful suburbs - with a student body of 3400, and most of the cliques were based on race, especially because the school - at least when I was there - was about 50% white and 50% black and hispanic. Most cliques were divided by race, but if you were white, you were pretty much considered unpopular if you didn't conform to urban hip-hop culture. I listened to Smashing Pumpkins, the Cure, and NO during those years, hated hip-hop, hated "urban gear", didn't speak ebonics, and dressed like Duckie from Pretty In Pink. Plus, to make matters worse, I was smarter than most of my peers; while most people in my class were struggling with trig by senior year, I had completed both Calculus I and II before that time. And the combination of looking weird and "being too smart for [my] own good" meant that I was a target.

But, being that Philadelphia is a disorganized urban school district, no one really gave a damn about minor harrassment. Unless a weapon was brought to school - it probably would've made a metal detector go off at the front door - or unless someone was raped or was beaten senseless, or unless you had a severe truancy problem, you had to deal with whatever problems other students were giving you. Also, if a student in an urban school district brings a gun to school and shoots people, it makes the local news. If a kid brings in a gun in a suburban district and shoots someome, it's on CNN. But, like the UK, there is a high drop out rate here - at least in the city. My class went from 1100 to 600 students in four years, and most of my friends dropped out soon after they turned 16, deciding that minimum-wage jobs were better than sitting in some decaying old building where they couldn't even learn enough to pass the state exams.

Believe it or not, I plan to study in Montreal after what I had seen in Toronto.

In regard to school and bullying: I have been bullied since elementary school because kids have been jealous that I was smarter than them, even though I was popular at the same time. Elementary school wasn't that bad, especially in 5th grade when I got the award for Best All-Around. It was hell for me in middle school and high school. I didn't get bullied, per se, but I was excluded. Cliques are just stupid. I couldn't say that I know the reasons for this exclusion for sure. I can probably guess that my race, intelligence, the fact that I'm agnostic, and the way I talked (after wearing a device to correct an overbite, braces, retainers, and the fact that I spoke Japanese before English) had something to do with it. Now that I'm in college, I don't have much of a problem anymore. I have more friends in college.