(O/T-ish) Salute music's innovators

The debate on the So Solid Crew thread reminded Laughing Martian and myself about the golden age of hip-hop in the 1980's and particularly about how "new and exciting" (myself) and "groundbreakingly creative" (LM) it was. Bearing this in mind, why don't we salute music's innovators here?

I suspect Joy Division and New Order will feature highly on your own list of musical innovators but who else heard what music other people had made before them but decided to make something new? Who are the music world's other, perhaps less well-known, groundbreakers? Nominate them here, disagree with other people's nominations if you think that someone else deserves the credit for an innovation or, if you feel the need to do so, curse someone for having an idea you wish they had never had.

Trying to dig up names from the deepest recesses of one's memory is not the easiest thing in the world as I'm sure you'll agree Fingers!!

Hence my usual reaction to a "list" thread is one of barely disguised apoplexy at my inability to conjure up names on the spot!!!

But for starters you have to include KRAFTWERK. Because, as we know, without Kraftwerk, there would be NO "Your Silent Face" - ergo, NO NEW ORDER!!

Kraftwerk all but started the electronic music boom by building their own instruments and drum machines of course. They also tried their first hand at live sampling by hanging a mike out of the window of their car as it sped along die Autobahnen, thus creating the first instance of recorded sampled sound on their eponymous album track. Seems quaint now doesn't it? But let's not forget who did it first then! ;)

And another important thing most people tend to overlook about Kraftwerk is their music being - crucially - very minimalist. No massed multi-tracked synth orgasms a la "The Perfect Kiss" on any of their classic records mind.... Through their 30 year existence they have always adhered strictly and unwaveringly to their "less is more" ethic without the need to compromise their sound. Hence their skeletal output of the past 20 years!! And, of course, every single Kraftwerk tune is instantly recognisable as being that of no one else....!

Second fact: without Kraftwerk = NO TRANS-EUROPE-EXPRESS, - ergo: NO HIP HOP or OLD-SKOOL ELECTRO!!!!!

Respect!. :)

One of my favourite artists is Baby Ford. Whilst S'Express, Bomb The Bass and The Beatmasters were having hits their labelmate Peter "Baby" Ford and his cohorts Mr Salt and Marc McGuire were making house, techno and acid tracks such as "Oochy Koochy" and "Chikki Chikki Ahh Ahh" which were just as good as anything produced in Chicago and Detroit. Then they took their thumping tracks and added proper songs (such as T-Rex's "Children Of The Revolution"), turning acid house into something that sounded like pop music. Later The Shamen and The Beloved did something similar and had some chart success but Baby Ford tried it before them and proved that musically it could be done.

Sadly, too many ravers preferred tracks on which some bird with big lungs sang one or two lines about tripping and getting high over bog standard dance fodder. Those artists who wanted to say more or do something different fell by the wayside or, like Baby Ford, retreated into the underground. When the nostalgia industry reached the rave era most programme producers, album compilers and journalists passed over Baby Ford and went looking for Gary Haisman and the blokes from Altern-8 instead. However, The Aphex Twin remembered Peter "Baby" Ford and signed him to his Rephlex label. I hope one day he retrieves his back catalogue from limbo and re-releases it so today's younger clubbers can hear some of the better music that their superstar DJ idols played in the early days and even sing along..."Disco me to ecstasy..."

I used to work in a record shop and someone put one of Kraftwerk's albums on and whilst I liked what I heard it struck me that the album was really quiet (so obviously we turned it up). Since then I have heard rumours about plans to remaster and re-release Kraftwerk's albums but I haven't heard anything more about it. Does anyone know if they have been remastered or are going to be?

I'm not sure if this nominee is an innovator or not so correct me if I'm wrong.

I'd like to nominate Peter "Hooky" Hook as a musical innovator for making the bass guitar an important instrument in rock music. Whilst rock bands prior to Joy Division had bass players they usually weren't as important as the lead singer or the lead guitarist and neither was their instrument. Bass players were important in reggae, soul and funk bands but not in rock music. In Joy Division and New Order Hooky proved that the bass guitar can be more than just a background noise and a bass guitarist can do more than what the lead guitarist tells them to do. Without Hooky would the intro to "I Wanna Be Adored" been as good as it is, would "Girls And Boys" be as infectious as it is and would "Relax" and "Two Tribes" been great records as well as controversial ones?

Being New Order fans you are likely to agree with my argument but if I'm wrong please tell me. I've tried to think of songs with basslines that really stood out which were released before Joy Division released "She's Lost Control", "Transmission" and "Isolation" but I can't think of any (but then I only started listening to music in the very late 1970's so there is a lot of pre-punk music I haven't heard). Was Hooky the first rock musician to realise the potential of the bass guitar or does someone else deserve the credit? If I've missed any bass heroes please tell me about them because if music has a great loud bassline I usually like it.

Originally posted by Fingers I'm not sure if this nominee is an innovator or not so correct me if I'm wrong.I'd like to nominate Peter "Hooky" Hook as a musical innovator for making the bass guitar an important instrument in rock music. Whilst rock bands prior to Joy Division had bass players they usually weren't as important as the lead singer or the lead guitarist and neither was their instrument. Bass players were important in reggae, soul and funk bands but not in rock music. In Joy Division and New Order Hooky proved that the bass guitar can be more than just a background noise and a bass guitarist can do more than what the lead guitarist tells them to do. Without Hooky would the intro to "I Wanna Be Adored" been as good as it is, would "Girls And Boys" be as infectious as it is and would "Relax" and "Two Tribes" been great records as well as controversial ones?Being New Order fans you are likely to agree with my argument but if I'm wrong please tell me. I've tried to think of songs with basslines that really stood out which were released before Joy Division released "She's Lost Control", "Transmission" and "Isolation" but I can't think of any (but then I only started listening to music in the very late 1970's so there is a lot of pre-punk music I haven't heard). Was Hooky the first rock musician to realise the potential of the bass guitar or does someone else deserve the credit? If I've missed any bass heroes please tell me about them because if music has a great loud bassline I usually like it.

Hooky was certainly the first exponent of this trademark upfront bass in a guitar band format, but was it his idea ? Various sources have said that it was Martin Hannett's idea to use the bass as the main melody instrumemt, relegating the guitar to a more rhythmic support function as happened in many songs conceived after late 1978 by Joy Division. Or was it Ian Curtis who picked up on this whole "less is more" style in his role as overseer of the tune and song ?

Probably neither. Barney put the songs together, and was also very conscious of the fact that the "JD sound" needed to change to accommodate Ian's voice and his own relative lack of guitar experience. Studio and rehearsal trial and error, plus the use of some technological gubbins by Hannett, taught them that effectively switching the respective roles of guitar and bass would allow the vocals and drums to take a much bigger position in the song structure. After 1978, songs were written in different keys, and were no longer written around the guitar part - that fulfilled the "traditional" bass role.

The funny thing is that they had to reinvent themselves again after Ian died, and it took them maybe 18 months before they started using keyboards as in different ways before they found a style that comfortanbly suited Barney's voice.

Innovators? One only look at the career of Falco if one wants to know the definition of "innovator". German rap owes him a huge debt.......

Have to bring up a recent band (now sadly long-disbanded) that I'll bet none of you have ever heard OF, let alone heard! DISCO INFERNO, who despite their rather lazy sounding name, are categorically NOT a retro-based "dance" outfit .

Formed in 1989 whilst the three members : Ian Crause, Paul Willmott and Robert Whatley (subsequently four - Daniel Gish - later of BARK PSYCHOSIS) were still teenagers at school, they started off being mere Wire/Joy Division copyists before finding themselves in an "indie rut". Cue their record label Chéree Records, who were enterprising enough to give the band a loan to buy some equipment: samplers, electronics, sequencers, etc... so they could pursue their musical vision in the direction they REALLY wanted to go in. Chéree Records folded after the band issued their first album "Open Doors/Closed Windows" and a brace of singles...the band relocated to Chéree's parent label CHÉ Records and ultimately were signed by Rough Trade Records on the strength of their final single for this label, "Summer's Last Sound".
What set this band apart from all their indie contemporaries at the time (1992) was their fondness for playing their music both in real time and in off-time - the latter triggering off all manner of crazy samples that enveloped and enmeshed their sound. Their angular guitar pop thus became a swirling maelstrom of found noises, crashes, barks, birdsong, dripping taps, footsteps, yelps, car horns, alarm clocks, slamming doors, thundercracks, crashing seawaves etc etc that if anything added to the cinemascopic whole of their songs..... And all this was played physically on just THREE instruments: bass guitar, electric guitar and drumkit. Each part of these was wired up to trigger off a sample (or a number of samples) when they were played or hit: four samples on the bass (or six), another six on the guitars and god knows how many from the drum kit. No keyboards were present at all - save for the sampler that was fed into a sequencer. The band were featured first in Melody Maker in the Control Zone (muso's) section of the editorial and the writer at the time was frankly overwhelmed by the sheer exuberant enthusiasm all three band members (still just barely out of their teens) demonstrated merely through talking about how they created their music.

They brought out two incredible albums on Rough Trade: D.I. GO POP (1984) and the unbelievably New Order-esque (true!!) TECHNICOLOUR (1995 - not released until a year after the band split up, in 1996) and some stunning singles: A Rock To Cling To (1992), The Last Dance (1993) - aptly-described as The Smiths meets "A Bell Is A Cup"-era Wire in an electronics factory, "Second Language EP" (1994) and "It's A Kids World" (1994 - complete with famous Iggy Pop "Lust For Life" drum sample throughout - played [here's the best bit] THROUGH THE BASS GUITAR and NOT the Drum kit!!!) before vanishing for good.

If you want to listen to just how innovative a young band can get - do no worse than to seek these records out. (especially the two albums). Truly this band have now belatedly earned themselves a place in the rock-canon for true sonic experimentalists. The lack of press plaudits and sheer apathy that greeted this bands' musical ventures (remember this was now the Brit-pop era we're talking baout - 1994-95) meant that disillusionment soon crept in followed by no money to finance any more gigs, and so, in the face of crushing indifference, the band split up before their great potential could be even further fulfilled. And what a tragic waste that remains.

Disco Inferno : 1989-1995 Uncategorisable Genius. R.I.P.

The Martian Has Spoken

sonic youth...i'm not entirely sure how they fit in the whole "innovators and their place in history" thing, but they're one of the most exprimental bands in the rock world today, indie rock cred all the way, and they bring credibility to anything they touch...oh yeah, they've got a fierce, uncompromising need to do what they want, when they want, whenever with their music. plus, they managed to not get screwed by their label...

Originally posted by snucker sonic youth...i'm not entirely sure how they fit in the whole "innovators and their place in history" thing, but they're one of the most exprimental bands in the rock world today, indie rock cred all the way, and they bring credibility to anything they touch...oh yeah, they've got a fierce, uncompromising need to do what they want, when they want, whenever with their music. plus, they managed to not get screwed by their label...

Their major label anyway. Think they parted with SST in the US on not so good terms regarding payments and things of that nature.

Originally posted by Green > Originally posted by snucker> sonic youth...i'm not entirely sure how they fit in the whole "innovators and their place in history" thing, but they're one of the most exprimental bands in the rock world today, indie rock cred all the way, and they bring credibility to anything they touch...oh yeah, they've got a fierce, uncompromising need to do what they want, when they want, whenever with their music. plus, they managed to not get screwed by their label...>

Their major label anyway. Think they parted with SST in the US on not so good terms regarding payments and things of that nature.

yep. Geffen. and i believe that the story of the parting of ways with SST is recounted in Michael Azzerrad's recent Our Band Could Be Your Life. which is an entertaining read all around, even if you don't care for the man's writing. the stories are highly entertaining.

Originally posted by janaki > Originally posted by Green> > > > Originally posted by snucker> > sonic youth...i'm not entirely sure how they fit in the whole "innovators and their place in history" thing, but they're one of the most exprimental bands in the rock world today, indie rock cred all the way, and they bring credibility to anything they touch...oh yeah, they've got a fierce, uncompromising need to do what they want, when they want, whenever with their music. plus, they managed to not get screwed by their label...> > >

Their major label anyway. Think they parted with SST in the US on not so good terms regarding payments and things of that nature.

yep. Geffen. and i believe that the story of the parting of ways with SST is recounted in Michael Azzerrad's recent Our Band Could Be Your Life. which is an entertaining read all around, even if you don't care for the man's writing. the stories are highly entertaining.

Picked that book up a month ago, haven't made it to the Sonic Youth section. Agree that the man's writing is an acquired taste. First section I had to read though was about the Butthole Surfers, and their , uh, lifestyle choices. I mean, everybody has to stop and look at the wreckage from an auto accident; I had to check out the human wreckage that was the Buttholes forte back then.

Still shaking my head at the memories from a Halloween gig they did about 15 years ago. A lot of the audience was dressed up (one couple looked like John and Yoko dressed in all white, there was one guy who looked like Jesus and was dragging a cross around, etc.). Flaming cymbals, VD and car-crash movies, the strobe lights, the naked go-go dancer, the bullhorn, and an amped up crowd that was ready for anything. As they say, a top night out!

Originally posted by Green > Originally posted by janaki> > > > Originally posted by Green> > > > > > > Originally posted by snucker> > > sonic youth...i'm not entirely sure how they fit in the whole "innovators and their place in history" thing, but they're one of the most exprimental bands in the rock world today, indie rock cred all the way, and they bring credibility to anything they touch...oh yeah, they've got a fierce, uncompromising need to do what they want, when they want, whenever with their music. plus, they managed to not get screwed by their label...> > > > > >

Their major label anyway. Think they parted with SST in the US on not so good terms regarding payments and things of that nature.

yep. Geffen. and i believe that the story of the parting of ways with SST is recounted in Michael Azzerrad's recent Our Band Could Be Your Life. which is an entertaining read all around, even if you don't care for the man's writing. the stories are highly entertaining.

Picked that book up a month ago, haven't made it to the Sonic Youth section. Agree that the man's writing is an acquired taste. First section I had to read though was about the Butthole Surfers, and their , uh, lifestyle choices. I mean, everybody has to stop and look at the wreckage from an auto accident; I had to check out the human wreckage that was the Buttholes forte back then.

Still shaking my head at the memories from a Halloween gig they did about 15 years ago. A lot of the audience was dressed up (one couple looked like John and Yoko dressed in all white, there was one guy who looked like Jesus and was dragging a cross around, etc.). Flaming cymbals, VD and car-crash movies, the strobe lights, the naked go-go dancer, the bullhorn, and an amped up crowd that was ready for anything. As they say, a top night out!

yeah, he wrote a pretty crap book on Nirvana awhile back, too. i believe just called Come As You Are: The Story of Nirvana or something very similar. he's sadly what passes for rock journalism these days...

i never saw the Buttholes live, though one of my coworkers has good similar stories of nights out to see them. 'course, i'm rather young to have caught many of the bands in this book in their prime, if at all. though i have seen Sonic Youth, which was amazing and wonderful, as one would expect.

there's a great picture of young, scrawny Henry Rollins in that book, too. which is amusing primarily because he's young and scrawny and doesn't yet have the tree-stump neck going on.

saw the BUTTHOLES live at reading festival ,cant remember what year it was, they came on played one song and then smashed everything to bits it was fucking hilairious,they then had to set it all up again, pure entertainment!!!!

I definiteley agree with the Martian on Disco Inferno (we're 2 to know this band here), incredible band, so unfairly unknown that you can't even call them "underrated" as they're not even rated whatsoever.

Thanks to the Grey Martian for all this info about the band that I didn't know.

By the way, I just checked Amazon.co.uk and their last album "Technicolour" is available in 2-3 days and only costs £ 8.99.

So what are you waiting for ?!

Originally posted by Zizou Zidane > Originally posted by Fingers> I'm not > The funny thing is that they had to reinvent themselves again after Ian died, and it took them maybe 18 months before they started using keyboards as in different ways before they found a style that comfortanbly suited Barney's voice.

Hmm yea, im not too sure that Barneys vocals sat particually well on Movement in all honesty.

Originally posted by (IntaDon) > Originally posted by Zizou Zidane> > > > Originally posted by Fingers> > I'm not > > The funny thing is that they had to reinvent themselves again after Ian died, and it took them maybe 18 months before they started using keyboards as in different ways before they found a style that comfortanbly suited Barney's voice.>

Hmm yea, im not too sure that Barneys vocals sat particually well on Movement in all honesty.

Exactly. Movement is full of the sort of songs they would have written if Ian had still been singing. It wasn't until Temptation was recorded that they reinvented their own wheel in terms of song structure, and found a sound for Barney to sing with.

First, I just want to say 2 Live, So Solid, Genius Motley J Crew.

Second, let's pause to recognize the contribution of James Brown.

In the beginning was Pangaea, a single land mass which slowly split into the tectonic plates that form the continents on which we live today. Then, nothing much happened for several million years, until James Brown released Cold Sweat, the single which by itself shifted the entire balance of contemporary music as we know it from melody to rhythm.

Without James Brown there is no New Order.

Originally posted by Gnu Odor Without James Brown there is no New Order.

Knew I recognised Steve's chin somewhere