live concert sound

I meant to say - following SC and Ms posts about Apollo/Tower ballroom, I was surprised to hear all your comments about the recent concerts and the dodgy live sound. I wasn't able to make it to these, but the high quality sound projection is something that always distinguished New Order gigs from the start, well almost the start.

I couldn't really get on with New Order's live sound at the festivals because it needs a room rather than a field

Being always bang at the front, that's another consideration

I don't think there were any findamental failings in what was being done at the Apollo, I just reckon the engineer had had one too many sauces and missed a couple of things (like ACR's vocal being panned left, or the sax being almost silent, or Hooky's vocal mic apparently only coming out of the monitors much of the time.)

The actualy rumbling was beyond anyone's ability to fix, the room just rings. I (for the first time ever) didn't get a good look at what bass bins were in use, but the mid/tops flown beside the stages, were fucking impressive highly directional units, the plan presumably being to set up a direction arc of direct sound for the mid/top detail, and just leave the room to rumble away in the bottom).

Maybe I'm exaggerating because it struck a chord (quite literally) with my ailing guts, but you can hear it plain as day on the webcast, usually at the starts of songs, because someone or something rolls all the bass out of the feed after a wee while in. Being at the front or in front of the tweeter stack may have given a nicer balance, but most places I stood there was FEARFUL resonance that threatenned to obliterate the band altogether. There was one point I distinctly remember watching Hooky play a riff, but every note sounded like the same pitch, because of the constant harmonics of the room (I'll spare you the explanation if you accept that such a thing can happen).

I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on the earthquale situation.

I'm not complaining or upset, I loved it apart from the violent gut betrayal....much rather hear someone take a rig to the very edge of death and back than fanny about all night. I'm not sure however that this rig ever got to that kind of level, i'm almost certain the limiting factor was the room itself, any more volume and serious problems could happen.

But I'm assuming the bottom end's generally not QUITE that runaway at NO gigs. In my bootleg digesting experience NO gigs are a lot like our own, the engineering and mixing is usually really good, but prone to glaring fuckups. Apollo pretty much backed that up.

EDIT, are you sure about festivals being crap because they are outside? if you mix right outside it can be powerful enough to really mess with people's heads even the sober ones. More likely the reason NO don't sound as good at festivals is that their engineer and the festival head engineer have to mix by committee, and the fact that their gear gets dumped on the stage 5 mins before they do , and on they go with no soundcheck. Must admit I've heard some attrocious crap outside as well as the nice noises I mentioned, but still, i stand by it, that the open air can be wonderful if you know what you're at and your have the time.

The sound upstairs was poor. It seemed like the whole roof was ringing.

I was in almost the same spot to watch Massive Attack and they had no such problems.

RE festivals. Lots of engineers do outdoor mixes from headphones initially. This usually means that the drums sound like they are in a field next to the gig itself. Always though NO had a good outdoor sound myself.

Were massive attack pushng that much bass into the room but? (can't imagine they weren't, they are legendary madmen)

I must say even tho it made me sick I've had worse, some other venues ring at ultra low frequencies and you're just convinced the fucker's coming down on you.

I just got the impression someone was having a whale of a time on a big rig, I've done the same when suddenly let loose on something particularly nice. We once did a gig in Belfast with a HUGE PA, couldn;t hear a thing, until you went down to the next floor, where it was like being inside a very slowy exploding bomb, there was even one point on the stairs where it nearly collapsed yer knees. But then I've never been let near anything half that size.

Massive Attack was VERY bass heavy. Having said that it is mainly sub bass played slowly whereas Sir Peter Hook as all over the neck so that may have something to do with it. He also has delay all over it etc.

I know what you mean about soound in different rooms. I once worked with an engineer who had been with Damon Fries who did a lot of work with 4AD bands live. He would do a live mix in the room then go to the toilets and listen to it there. Any adjustments would be made from the results of the 'toilet sound'. He also always said to stick your fingers in your ears to listen your initial live mix. Completely wacko but a hell of an engineer

GOing to the bog is a valid technique in the studio as well ( in fact I've only used in studio), once you go into another room, rather than being able to hear all the clever subtleties your brain's tuned into with a pair of nearfields in front of you, all you can hear re the glaring mistakes, the hi-hat that's wiping out the mix, or the horrid rumbly bit in the lower mid of the vocal, stuff like that which you stare through when really listening close.

Worst sound I ever heard was Black grape supporting the Prodigy in the King's hall in Belfast. It's a shite venue for sound anyway, but add to that, the fact that the PA, and engineer crew were the prodigy's and so were all orientated towards knocking out maximum power when fed with clean electronic input. AND factor in them being limited because they were support.

All you could hear was mud and reverb, so much reverb that even the drums turned into something more pad[1] than percussion. The only distinguishable noise was feedback. it did improve a little towards the end but it was tragic. The P themselves rocked alright but it wasn't gorgeous. After the gig I spoke to the engineer (I try, if I'm sober, to swing past the desk and say thanks on my way out of gigs, I've sat there often enough and know that no one pays you any attention unless they want to complain), he remembered me from last time..."we brought more speakers this time" he grinned "that's the rig we used in wembley" and the smile faded "still sounded shit tho, I dunno where it all went, must be all you dense paddies soaking it up" I alerted him to the wonderful reverb baffles that had been installed since their last visit..."as we say back home lad, you can't polish a turd", and I left him with the pricetag for them...2 million quid, and the words "ulster hall" ringing in his ears.

[1]not drum pads, i mean pad as in the synth sense of a nice bedding chord noise.