To those of you who hate Subculture

This has been buggering me for a while, so I decided to finally ask about it.

All my friends who are also seriously into New Order have one common opinion about Subculture - that it's crap song, the worst ever single by the band and generally something that should be hated without any doubt once and for all. Hmmm... OK, I can only understand the bit about single - so it's not the most commercially successful release NO had, but then chart-success is not necessarily presentative of the song quality, right? The rest of their attitude towards this very song just seems inapprehensible to me. Why? I mean, NO have far worse songs in their back catalog (why not World In Motion? Or Liar?), so there should be some more sinister explaination than just one's taste to this.

Therefore, I would like to ask all of you who hate Subculture to explain to me why you do so. Thanks in advance.

It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Hmm... And were those backing vocals also the reason why Republic is considered one of the weaker NO albums?

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Hmm... And were those backing vocals also the reason why Republic is considered one of the weaker NO albums? Not at all. Republic is weak because

a) the production - several songs are overproduced and too synthetic b) not enough New Order, in particular Hooky, on them. The record is almost a Barney solo album and doesn't contain enough of the inputs the rest used to make on previous recordings.

the production - several songs are overproduced and too synthetic

Yeah, I agree 100%. I would add also - pathetic (already mentioned above Liar being prime example for me).

Returning to Subculture - why was remixed version released instead of the original? To make it more club-friendly or just because the band preferred it?

who gives a fookingmonkeybollock. republics an ok album and subcultures fine in all its formats.

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > the production - several songs are overproduced and too syntheticYeah, I agree 100%. I would add also - pathetic (already mentioned above Liar being prime example for me). Returning to Subculture - why was remixed version released instead of the original? To make it more club-friendly or just because the band preferred it?

I remember listening to a Hooky interview around the time of Substance where he said that only Barney wanted it released, and it was intended for clubs, hence the simple sleeve. Hooky went on record as saying he hated it, and wanted no part of putting out songs with female woo-woo backing vocals !

I actually liked that John Robbie remix, along with his work on Shellshock and State Of The Nation, but can see how it's not really a typical New Order tune.

After hearing the cracking version on PFD, I've always thought Sub-Culture would be a great song for New Order to do a more guitar-based re-recording of for a session, a la 'Temptation 98'. I'm sure they could improve it if they went back to it with their current sound.

Andy.

songs with female woo-woo backing vocals

OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > songs with female woo-woo backing vocals OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

You haven't heard a bad word about Shite of the Nation ? Clean yer ears out !

Am I missing something? Is it actually second to Subculture?

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > songs with female woo-woo backing vocals OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

Not State but it's on Shame of the Nation

I never disliked the REMIX and loved the RECORD MIRROR one. Backing vocals don't worry me in the slightest.But each to their own. ROCKET MICK

I remember that my drunk cousin almost jumped from the balcony after listening the 12" Remix in 1989

But I like it

I don't dislike the Robie remix 12" of Sub-Culture, but I don't adore it either. I prefer the LowLife version and the Record Mirror version.

On the plus side of the Robie Remix, I love the drum sound that sounds more like the clashing of planks of wood than drums (surprised I've never heard it sampled since by anyone else) and that upwards arpeggio synth line. On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record. And the rhythm always sounded clunky and mistimed to me. That synthesised 2-note up & down bass-line sounds as though it's always falling out of time - very distracting. Didn't work much with Robie again did they ?

In retrospect, the LowLife version wouldn't sound out of place on the first Pet Shop Boys LP.

Originally posted by HaciendaThat On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record.

No,It was Doubts Even Here

Originally posted by HaciendaThat I don't dislike the Robie remix 12" of Sub-Culture, but I don't adore it either. I prefer the LowLife version and the Record Mirror version.On the plus side of the Robie Remix, I love the drum sound that sounds more like the clashing of planks of wood than drums (surprised I've never heard it sampled since by anyone else) and that upwards arpeggio synth line. On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record. And the rhythm always sounded clunky and mistimed to me. That synthesised 2-note up & down bass-line sounds as though it's always falling out of time - very distracting. Didn't work much with Robie again did they ?In retrospect, the LowLife version wouldn't sound out of place on the first Pet Shop Boys LP.

Given that the fans (and, it seems, members of the group)despise the Robie version, can we assume that his pompous appearance on NewOrderStory is some kind of Morley in-joke: he doesn't seem to like either the band or their music. Actually, it must be a joke: isn't he introduced by some poodle-haired tea-boy who asks us to marvel at a gold disk for a Paula Abdul record!?!?!?

Opposites attrcat, I guess (BOOM! BOOM!!)

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Agreed, though it's not a 'remixed' version, is it? It's re-recorded in its entirity, surely?. There's plenty of remixed versions out there - Record Mirror springs to mind - based on the original which still ooze class.

True enough - shows how often I have listened to it since the first horrendous experience !

I like the remix on Substance 1987 better than the album version. But then again I like black female harmony vocals with my New Order and Electronic, and I like black music in general. Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing. The re-done vocals for the remix combined with the female harmonies make a boring chorus better.

The John Robie remix 12" version's bass sequencer line is actually shifted to an off beat from the main 4/4/ rhythm - in effect trying to give the track a funkier kick, but despite this it still doesn't work cos everyone thinks that synth line is simply out of time.... and there's far too much compression on the kick drum for starters - it sounds like someone hitting a plastic bag in time to the song. In short - crap!

Originally posted by Joshua B I like the remix on Substance 1987 better than the album version. But then again I like black female harmony vocals with my New Order and Electronic, and I like black music in general. Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing. The re-done vocals for the remix combined with the female harmonies make a boring chorus better.

Fuck the female harmonies - what we really need are some female hormones. :D

Originally posted by Joshua B I Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing.

Nah, he's walking in the park.....he tells you that !

Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Joshua B> I Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing.

Nah, he's walking in the park.....he tells you that !

He also said that he likes talking in his sleep

I think the senior members on this board are bored to death about New Order topics. Too bad.

Far from it. I just couldn't bring myself to launch into a vitriolic attack on your rather embarrassing revelation that you like the 12" of Crudvulture, deciding instead that it was best left as though it were a slip of the tongue. Everyone is entitled to an opinion after all, no matter how much in the minority they find themselves.

Power to the people !

To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

It's an infamy

Tim and me never do it

Originally posted by Joshua B To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

To recap: Americans, irony.......like, whatever.

Subculture was great live, as on PFD. The album version doesn't capture the energy of it, but it's alright. The Substance version is complete ass.

Originally posted by martin fradley > Originally posted by Joshua B> To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

To recap: Americans, irony.......like, whatever. damn you sound like a Valley girl, have you ever been to the San Fernando Valley?? Ever been to the Northridge Mall?

Originally posted by Deadly Viper Assassination Squad > Originally posted by martin fradley> > > > Originally posted by Joshua B> > To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.>

To recap: Americans, irony.......like, whatever. damn you sound like a Valley girl, have you ever been to the San Fernando Valley?? Ever been to the Northridge Mall?

Yeah, I lost my virginity at the Northridge Mall......

[Just in case this flares up: yes, I was being flippant and glib, and have all the love in the world for our cross-Atlantic cousins, its just that there's more to life than discussing pop music, and there's much more to this forum than the on-topic, as many largely AWOL NOOLers would doubtless attest).

Originally posted by Joshua B To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

Only when I hear them for the 586th time. Try doing some research with the search facility and looking up the previous dozen times this thread has been started by a newbie !

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate This has been buggering me for a while

lets recap:

Subculture - a tale of the two headed monster

SubCulture album version = GOOD SubCulture Record Mirror Mix = V.GOOD SubCulture (Robie Mixes) = V.SHITE (unless you like wailing, wannabe diva's) SubCulture Live 85-87 = V.V.GOOD

so, to sum up, subculture is a good song. one of my favorites in it's original/RM/life form, but irritating and mindboggling in it's J.Robie Remix state. Most people share this same opinion but the beauty of being alive is coexisting with people who have differing opinions. it doesn't mean you're any less a fan/more a fan if you like the Robie Mixes, just easier to please (that last bit is a joke for those unable to decipher humor).

I'd rather discuss actual NewOrder topics than the ones that get floated these days but we'll have to wait for some new product or new rumors before the serious discussions take off.

Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Joshua B> To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

Only when I hear them for the 586th time. Try doing some research with the search facility and looking up the previous dozen times this thread has been started by a newbie !

And I would say stop trying to sabotage topics that bore you.

john robie did nice work with shell-shock but made an absolute pigs of sub-cunture. low life version is neat and tidy and it never really upset me or excited me when they played it live.. can never be arsed to check stats...but if memory serves me right it got alot of airtime during 85-86 gigs...tim???

Nothing really to add to this debate apart from the obvious. I went from being elated when I heard Sub-culture was to be a single to prozac when I heard the John Robie remix. Coincidentally, I had been discussing the possibility of female backing vocals on New Order tracks at that time.

Originally posted by Joshua B > Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Joshua B> To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

Only when I hear them for the 586th time. Try doing some research with the search facility and looking up the previous dozen times this thread has been started by a newbie !

And I would say stop trying to sabotage topics that bore you.

Tim

You are disrespecting the laws.You have the right to find a lawyer to defend you on this case

In blessed America,justice is blind

just to throw a spanner in the works here..i loved the album version...liked the record mirror version even more...thought the 12 "remix was dull......But the RaZoRmAid version (with the strange east european flat sounding female singer) was bloody awe inspiring.....l8 everyone ..helllo to julio and rocketmick

Originally posted by phillip lockhart just to throw a spanner in the works here..i loved the album version...liked the record mirror version even more...thought the 12 "remix was dull......But the RaZoRmAid version (with the strange east european flat sounding female singer) was bloody awe inspiring.....l8 everyone ..helllo to julio and rocketmick

Cheers Phil

Get ready to listen to your cds Phil

You will like them a lot

Originally posted by Joshua B > Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Joshua B> To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

Only when I hear them for the 586th time. Try doing some research with the search facility and looking up the previous dozen times this thread has been started by a newbie !

And I would say stop trying to sabotage topics that bore you.

Do you know what I would say ? I'll give you a clue. The second word isn't "on".

Originally posted by phillip lockhart just to throw a spanner in the works here..i loved the album version...liked the record mirror version even more...thought the 12 "remix was dull......But the RaZoRmAid version (with the strange east european flat sounding female singer) was bloody awe inspiring.....l8 everyone ..helllo to julio and rocketmick

The DEBORAH LYALL mix or something like that is CLASSIC.Is this the one you mean? And HELLO from ROCKET MICK:D

Originally posted by Chris I love the original of 'Subculture' and the Record Mirror version.The reason I don't like the Substance version is because (and I've said this before) the bass synth/sequence seems out of time with the rest of the track. It might just be me, but that makes the track unlistenable.

Thats the flipside (DubVulture). It makes sense if you crank it up really loud...the bass throbs so you don't notice its out of time. I like it actually, its got some good noises on it.

Its a shame New Order don't write 8 minute pop songs with big endings anymore. Good synth noises on it as well.

record mirror version is the best mix for me,although the album version is just fine too. i was washing the car yesterday and had n/o blasting out from the garage on some old tape i dug out. what comes on but shellshock (im not sure which mix)but even ive got to admit it was probally one of their (barney )most like,over indulgent durges ive heard ,i even went and flicked the tape over

Originally posted by HaciendaThat I prefer the LowLife version and the Record Mirror version.

Just to make sure we are all at the same level... The Record Mirror version is identical to Razormaid's first remix (v1.0). The only difference is that the RM version starts fading out. The Razormaid release has a much, much better sound quality. So what do you say now about Razormaid?

/TLV

I've always liked the Low-life version of Subculture, and, for a brief period, the Substance remixed version as well. But, after a while, the latter seemed incredibly synthetic, especially with all of those brassy sounds that are obviously synthesized. And, then, there's that false ending/stopping thing near the end. The first time I heard it, I thought my CD was skipping. Also, Barney's vocals seem incredibly out of place in the remix, although they seem perfectly fine with the moody atmosphere of the original.

Originally posted by Androgynous kid with a camera that follows you I've always liked the Low-life version of Subculture, and, for a brief period, the Substance remixed version as well. But, after a while, the latter seemed incredibly synthetic, especially with all of those brassy sounds that are obviously synthesized. And, then, there's that false ending/stopping thing near the end. The first time I heard it, I thought my CD was skipping. Also, Barney's vocals seem incredibly out of place in the remix, although they seem perfectly fine with the moody atmosphere of the original.

Subculture makes me a New order fan in 1988

Originally posted by Spotnick Record Mirror is actually an edit of the Razormaid Mix guys... you can say Razormaid did something good for New Order.

I have discussed this with -1. Is it really an edit if the only difference is that one version is reducing the volume to fade out the track 1:30 or so before the real end?

If that's the case, I can make my own unique edits of every track available and sell them on eBay.

/TLV

Originally posted by Spotnick I don't like the Deborah Lyall mix at ALL... sorry! Neither do I like backing vocals on NO tracks ;)

Completely agreed. I hate "Shame of the Nation" mainly because of that.

Originally posted by Spotnick Record Mirror is actually an edit of the Razormaid Mix guys... you can say Razormaid did something good for New Order.I don't like the Deborah Lyall mix at ALL... sorry! Neither do I like backing vocals on NO tracks ;)

Yep, amazing though it sounds, Razormaid did do something useful, and as it was freely distributed originally I guess they don't mind us sharing it round eh?

Otherwise, I have to agree that Subculture is something of an earsore.

However, I can't share the down on backing vocals, I find Dawn(?) on 516 a pleasant distraction (aurally I mean!). If the 2nd guitarist (or Hooky) sings backing vocals do you not like that either?

The Razormaid version (which I had originally heard in it's Record Mirror edit guise) is one of the finest Neworder songs I have heard.

A big thanks to RMStudios for the CDr

Originally posted by death of art > Originally posted by Spotnick> I don't like the Deborah Lyall mix at ALL... sorry! Neither do I like backing vocals on NO tracks ;)

Completely agreed. I hate "Shame of the Nation" mainly because of that.

So you hate Crystal,Someone Like You,Close Range & Brutal

Originally posted by Spotnick I guess people don't like the single version of Subculture, but most like the album version...But for people like me who learned to love the track with Substance, it was a shock to listen to the original version, let's say I had troubles with it at first....So I like both, but these days I listen to the album version a lot more than the remix... but it's way better than Shellshock ;)

I fully agree with that, Spotnick. The more so since I first discovered New Order, and this song in particular, in clubs. I just couldn't imagine people dancing on the album version, while the Substance version sounded great on the dancefloor 16 years ago.

It was my first New Order single. Sorry, I still like it. To those who are old enough, remember the good old days when it seemed that every time you went into your favourite record shop, there was something new by New Order there. I guess thats how I got into New Order. Subculture 12" got me interested to seek out more of their work.

Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate> > > > Originally posted by KnownPleasures> It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Hmm... And were those backing vocals also the reason why Republic is considered one of the weaker NO albums? Not at all. Republic is weak because

a) the production - several songs are overproduced and too synthetic b) not enough New Order, in particular Hooky, on them. The record is almost a Barney solo album and doesn't contain enough of the inputs the rest used to make on previous recordings.

a) agree b) and agree.

But unfortunately, the lyrics are some of Barney's better ones. I'd be interested in hearing what the songs would sound like re-recorded or w/o Stephen Hague behind the board. Any one heard the rare demo/instrumental tape of the Republic songs? If so, how does it compare to the final release?

I remember reading an interview w/ Barney and Hooky (I think) about the recording of Republic. Per Hooky, Hague had Barney isolated from the rest of the band during the writing process. Supposedly Barney wanted more input from the others, but assumed that they weren't interested b/c Hague had them convinced to leave the Barnster alone. Too bad really.

Originally posted by Brazil Order

So you hate Crystal,Someone Like You,Close Range & Brutal

OK, OK. Time for a dramatic climb-down and public apology, etc, etc.

It's just that I don't think backing vocals add anything really. With a "song" like Shame... the backing vocals actually highlight what a pile of cack it unfortunately is.

The songs you mentioned are all great, but if there were no backing vocals I don't think I'd like them any less, to be honest.

Barney's voice is great partly because it is fragile, and beefing it up with BVs like on Sub-culture isn't necessary. You only have listen to Thieves Like Us, Leave Me Alone, etc to see that they just aren't needed.

Anyway, in the end even a NO dud is the sort of thing most bands would give their right arms for and spend whole careers miserably failing to produce.