To those of you who hate Subculture

This has been buggering me for a while, so I decided to finally ask about it.

All my friends who are also seriously into New Order have one common opinion about Subculture - that it's crap song, the worst ever single by the band and generally something that should be hated without any doubt once and for all. Hmmm... OK, I can only understand the bit about single - so it's not the most commercially successful release NO had, but then chart-success is not necessarily presentative of the song quality, right? The rest of their attitude towards this very song just seems inapprehensible to me. Why? I mean, NO have far worse songs in their back catalog (why not World In Motion? Or Liar?), so there should be some more sinister explaination than just one's taste to this.

Therefore, I would like to ask all of you who hate Subculture to explain to me why you do so. Thanks in advance.

It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Hmm... And were those backing vocals also the reason why Republic is considered one of the weaker NO albums?

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Hmm... And were those backing vocals also the reason why Republic is considered one of the weaker NO albums? Not at all. Republic is weak because

a) the production - several songs are overproduced and too synthetic b) not enough New Order, in particular Hooky, on them. The record is almost a Barney solo album and doesn't contain enough of the inputs the rest used to make on previous recordings.

the production - several songs are overproduced and too synthetic

Yeah, I agree 100%. I would add also - pathetic (already mentioned above Liar being prime example for me).

Returning to Subculture - why was remixed version released instead of the original? To make it more club-friendly or just because the band preferred it?

who gives a fookingmonkeybollock. republics an ok album and subcultures fine in all its formats.

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > the production - several songs are overproduced and too syntheticYeah, I agree 100%. I would add also - pathetic (already mentioned above Liar being prime example for me). Returning to Subculture - why was remixed version released instead of the original? To make it more club-friendly or just because the band preferred it?

I remember listening to a Hooky interview around the time of Substance where he said that only Barney wanted it released, and it was intended for clubs, hence the simple sleeve. Hooky went on record as saying he hated it, and wanted no part of putting out songs with female woo-woo backing vocals !

I actually liked that John Robbie remix, along with his work on Shellshock and State Of The Nation, but can see how it's not really a typical New Order tune.

After hearing the cracking version on PFD, I've always thought Sub-Culture would be a great song for New Order to do a more guitar-based re-recording of for a session, a la 'Temptation 98'. I'm sure they could improve it if they went back to it with their current sound.

Andy.

songs with female woo-woo backing vocals

OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > songs with female woo-woo backing vocals OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

You haven't heard a bad word about Shite of the Nation ? Clean yer ears out !

Am I missing something? Is it actually second to Subculture?

Originally posted by Mr Carbohydrate > songs with female woo-woo backing vocals OK, do you think that remix of Subculture would have been greeted with the same negative reaction if it was actually the original track? I mean, I haven't heard a bad word about State Of The Nation and you've got plenty of "woo-woo backing vocals" on that too.

Not State but it's on Shame of the Nation

I never disliked the REMIX and loved the RECORD MIRROR one. Backing vocals don't worry me in the slightest.But each to their own. ROCKET MICK

I remember that my drunk cousin almost jumped from the balcony after listening the 12" Remix in 1989

But I like it

I don't dislike the Robie remix 12" of Sub-Culture, but I don't adore it either. I prefer the LowLife version and the Record Mirror version.

On the plus side of the Robie Remix, I love the drum sound that sounds more like the clashing of planks of wood than drums (surprised I've never heard it sampled since by anyone else) and that upwards arpeggio synth line. On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record. And the rhythm always sounded clunky and mistimed to me. That synthesised 2-note up & down bass-line sounds as though it's always falling out of time - very distracting. Didn't work much with Robie again did they ?

In retrospect, the LowLife version wouldn't sound out of place on the first Pet Shop Boys LP.

Originally posted by HaciendaThat On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record.

No,It was Doubts Even Here

Originally posted by HaciendaThat I don't dislike the Robie remix 12" of Sub-Culture, but I don't adore it either. I prefer the LowLife version and the Record Mirror version.On the plus side of the Robie Remix, I love the drum sound that sounds more like the clashing of planks of wood than drums (surprised I've never heard it sampled since by anyone else) and that upwards arpeggio synth line. On the minus side I flinched at the use of female backing vocals for the first time I can remember on a NO record. And the rhythm always sounded clunky and mistimed to me. That synthesised 2-note up & down bass-line sounds as though it's always falling out of time - very distracting. Didn't work much with Robie again did they ?In retrospect, the LowLife version wouldn't sound out of place on the first Pet Shop Boys LP.

Given that the fans (and, it seems, members of the group)despise the Robie version, can we assume that his pompous appearance on NewOrderStory is some kind of Morley in-joke: he doesn't seem to like either the band or their music. Actually, it must be a joke: isn't he introduced by some poodle-haired tea-boy who asks us to marvel at a gold disk for a Paula Abdul record!?!?!?

Opposites attrcat, I guess (BOOM! BOOM!!)

Originally posted by Al Jarvis > Originally posted by KnownPleasures It's not so much a hatred of the song as a hatred of the remixed version that was put out as a single. The Low Life version is fine, and live it was a favourite for a few years. The remix is horrible though, the backing vocals just don't work with this song. The version put out as a single didn't do the song justice at all.

Agreed, though it's not a 'remixed' version, is it? It's re-recorded in its entirity, surely?. There's plenty of remixed versions out there - Record Mirror springs to mind - based on the original which still ooze class.

True enough - shows how often I have listened to it since the first horrendous experience !

I like the remix on Substance 1987 better than the album version. But then again I like black female harmony vocals with my New Order and Electronic, and I like black music in general. Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing. The re-done vocals for the remix combined with the female harmonies make a boring chorus better.

The John Robie remix 12" version's bass sequencer line is actually shifted to an off beat from the main 4/4/ rhythm - in effect trying to give the track a funkier kick, but despite this it still doesn't work cos everyone thinks that synth line is simply out of time.... and there's far too much compression on the kick drum for starters - it sounds like someone hitting a plastic bag in time to the song. In short - crap!

Originally posted by Joshua B I like the remix on Substance 1987 better than the album version. But then again I like black female harmony vocals with my New Order and Electronic, and I like black music in general. Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing. The re-done vocals for the remix combined with the female harmonies make a boring chorus better.

Fuck the female harmonies - what we really need are some female hormones. :D

Originally posted by Joshua B I Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing.

Nah, he's walking in the park.....he tells you that !

Originally posted by KnownPleasures > Originally posted by Joshua B> I Bernard is terribly un-precise on the album version. He sounds like he's sleep walking as he's singing.

Nah, he's walking in the park.....he tells you that !

He also said that he likes talking in his sleep

I think the senior members on this board are bored to death about New Order topics. Too bad.

Far from it. I just couldn't bring myself to launch into a vitriolic attack on your rather embarrassing revelation that you like the 12" of Crudvulture, deciding instead that it was best left as though it were a slip of the tongue. Everyone is entitled to an opinion after all, no matter how much in the minority they find themselves.

Power to the people !

To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

It's an infamy

Tim and me never do it

Originally posted by Joshua B To me it seems like you make a joke out of all on-topic, relevent New Order discussion.

To recap: Americans, irony.......like, whatever.

Subculture was great live, as on PFD. The album version doesn't capture the energy of it, but it's alright. The Substance version is complete ass.