Unknown Pleasures

Is this the finest debut album ever made ?

If not, why not, and who is better ?

And you all thought this was going to be a thread about the North West's finest funk combo, didn't you.

Quite probably; but despite that that they don't cut much mustard round here, I'd say "The Stone Roses" pushes it pretty close.

(And the link is pretty obvious - the fade-in of I Wanna Be Adored' sounds like an outtake of Hannett FX....)

Originally posted by martin fradley Quite probably; but despite that that they don't cut much mustard round here, I'd say "The Stone Roses" pushes it pretty close.(And the link is pretty obvious - the fade-in of I Wanna Be Adored' sounds like an outtake of Hannett FX....)

It does indeed, and I'd never noticed that before ! I still haven't heard The Stone Roses all the way through, and have only ever heard one song off the second album.

Originally posted by > Originally posted by martin fradley> Quite probably; but despite that that they don't cut much mustard round here, I'd say "The Stone Roses" pushes it pretty close.> > (And the link is pretty obvious - the fade-in of I Wanna Be Adored' sounds like an outtake of Hannett FX....)

It does indeed, and I'd never noticed that before ! I still haven't heard The Stone Roses all the way through, and have only ever heard one song off the second album.

Really????? I can understand avoiding the second one (though is is underrated IMHO), but you've never "TSR" all the way through?!?!?!?!?

As well as Hook producing one of their singles, I think I'm right in saying that Hannett worked with early quasi-goth era Roses, one theory I heard being that aforementioned intro was a hangover from their non-too-pleasant interlude with Zero the Hero.

I refused to buy it or buy into the NME hype, and only heard the first seven tracks on the end of an Inspirals live tape. Don't know what happened to the tape now. I never did see the appeal.

I thought you were talking about Steve's C-D band

This is a great debut album really,but Candidate & Interzone were out of the atmosphere created for this album.From Safety to Where? and Digital would be a great replacement.

Originally posted by Barton Street 77 This is a great debut album really,but Candidate & Interzone were out of the atmosphere created for this album.From Safety to Where? and Digital would be a great replacement.

I'm not so sure. Candidate fits the gathering claustrophobia that morphs into Insight, and Interzone is a logical brother to Shadowplay. If anything, I would have added two more tracks rather than keeping it to the ten. I'd have added Exercise One and Walked in Line.

without a doubt, one of the finest debuts ever and way ahead of it's time... bit ironic how the band wasn't too happy about the production at the time... I wonder how it would have turned out if it had been produced with a harder edge like they wanted?

Yeah, I was reading an interview with Hooky about how they wanted this more metallic edge to the production that they thought reflected the live sound - they didn't get the subtleties of production at that stage in their careers.

It would be good to hear a heavier sound to some of those songs, whereas some of them were made by the space and claustrophobia that surrounded them. Take Shadowplay for example, and that guitar at the final gig in Brum as opposed to the version on Unknown Pleasures.

It's a well worn story, I know, but Sav designed the sleeve without having heard the album and was justifiably satisfied at how well the music and artwork went together. Wonder if it would have been the same if they'd just had a picture of the band on the front?

Good call. The mystery from the sleeve carries over to the music, and the austere design and relative lack of information just keeps the distance between the artist and the listener, something that is so clear in the sound.

It would have had to have sounded different if it had a photo of the band on the sleeve, and I'll wager now that Joy Division would not have had the career they did have were it not for the Savile design. A band photo would have dated the record, and the talking point that was the myth of JD would have gone immediately. People always thought there were things they didn't know about the band because of the sleeves and the lack of communication, and it was partly this that created the market.

Hooky and Bernard didn't like its production but Ian and Steve loved it.I won't write down here the bad names Hannett called them

Crocodiles is another goodie, but I generally find that bands with smashing debuts tend to fade very quickly. Can't sustain the momentum. It's interesting to wonder if this would have happened to JD - I can definitely picture them becoming very bleak and droney and turgid.

Probably to make myself unpopular...

but i prefer Definitely Maybe.

Originally posted by Sound of Confusion Crocodiles is another goodie, but I generally find that bands with smashing debuts tend to fade very quickly. Can't sustain the momentum. It's interesting to wonder if this would have happened to JD - I can definitely picture them becoming very bleak and droney and turgid.

no I don't think they would have faded away, Closer was already a more accessible and 'intimate' album and Ian and the gang were writing more uplifting songs like LWTUA and Ceremony, it could only have gotten better and better...

Originally posted by Liam Core Probably to make myself unpopular...but i prefer Definitely Maybe.

It's more modern, isn't it ? Definitely Maybe was the best debut album of the 90s for me, brings back many fond memories of gigs and just having a good time.

Originally posted by SuperNova > Originally posted by Sound of Confusion> Crocodiles is another goodie, but I generally find that bands with smashing debuts tend to fade very quickly. Can't sustain the momentum. It's interesting to wonder if this would have happened to JD - I can definitely picture them becoming very bleak and droney and turgid.

no I don't think they would have faded away, Closer was already a more accessible and 'intimate' album and Ian and the gang were writing more uplifting songs like LWTUA and Ceremony, it could only have gotten better and better...

In A Lonely Place appeared at the same time as Ceremony, and I defy anyone to get uplifted by that. If anything, the musical noose was so tight by mid 1980 that it took them until Temptation to recover.

I think it's definitely a striking debut insofar as it is quite mature for a debut record. I think this is in large part due to Hannett's sheen as well as the fact that they had actually already been through the process of recording an album. That said, the production that sets it apart is, unfortunately for me, the very thing that turns me off of it. This may be my bias having heard the stories behind the recording, but it all seems a bit gimmicky to me. I probably listen to the RCA album 5 times more often than Unknown Pleasures even though the songs are better on the latter album. In fact, I don't think the real assertive "Hannett sound"/production aesthetic served them well often in their career. Exceptions being Atmosphere and the second side of Closer. I guess I'll just have to wait for "Unknown Pleasures...Naked".

As far as other great debuts (just off the top of my head):

Sex Pistols: Nevermind the Bollocks (one of the great last albums as well) CCR: self titled The Clash: s/t Lynyrd Skynyrd:Pronounced Leh-Nerd Skin-Nerd (I'm sure the board isn't going to light up with agreement on this one) Echo & the Bunnymen: Crocodiles REM: Murmur Pavement: SLanted & Echanted The Strokes: Is this it

I'm sure there's a ton more.

Originally posted by Sound of Confusion I generally find that bands with smashing debuts tend to fade very quickly. Can't sustain the momentum. It's interesting to wonder if this would have happened to JD - I can definitely picture them becoming very bleak and droney and turgid.

Possibly, but it's hard to deny that JD ceased at what was undoubtably their most interesting period - 2 relatively uplifting songs backed by characteristically downbeat lyrics (LWTUA and Ceremony), a proto-techno track (As You Said) and a song which, although written in the same vein as previous material, involved instrument-switching (Hooky-cymbals, Barney/Ian?-melodica), not to mention the fact that it was 12 minutes long (IALP). The 3rd album would have been very intriguing, I think it's safe to say.

Originally posted by > Originally posted by Liam Core> Probably to make myself unpopular...> > but i prefer Definitely Maybe.

It's more modern, isn't it ? Definitely Maybe was the best debut album of the 90s for me, brings back many fond memories of gigs and just having a good time.

I don't get how you could buy into Oasis but ignore Stone Roses. Oasis never managed to be much more than a pale imitation of the Roses for me. A unsubtle pastiche of Slade and The Beatles done in the style of Brown and Co. with even the Mic technique ripped off for good measure. Who propelled them into the mainstream as well? NME.

Oasis = U2 of the new millenium :barf:

Originally posted by Hesky's Whiteass© > Originally posted by > > > > Originally posted by Liam Core> > Probably to make myself unpopular...> > > > but i prefer Definitely Maybe.>

It's more modern, isn't it ? Definitely Maybe was the best debut album of the 90s for me, brings back many fond memories of gigs and just having a good time.

I don't get how you could buy into Oasis but ignore Stone Roses. Oasis never managed to be much more than a pale imitation of the Roses for me. A unsubtle pastiche of Slade and The Beatles done in the style of Brown and Co. with even the Mic technique ripped off for good measure. Who propelled them into the mainstream as well? NME.

Yeah, I'd go along with that. Oasis WERE fun live (I recall them regularly offering the whole audience on during '94 gigs!) but nothing compared to the Roses who were, despite the hype, something special, if only for 12 months.....

Originally posted by Hesky's Whiteass© > Originally posted by > > > > Originally posted by Liam Core> > Probably to make myself unpopular...> > > > but i prefer Definitely Maybe.>

It's more modern, isn't it ? Definitely Maybe was the best debut album of the 90s for me, brings back many fond memories of gigs and just having a good time.

I don't get how you could buy into Oasis but ignore Stone Roses. Oasis never managed to be much more than a pale imitation of the Roses for me. A unsubtle pastiche of Slade and The Beatles done in the style of Brown and Co. with even the Mic technique ripped off for good measure. Who propelled them into the mainstream as well? NME.

Quite simply, I discovered Oasis for myself rather than buying into the NME hype. I only like bands that I find myself, rather than having them thrust down my throat. The Oasis-liking phase had worn off by the time of the third album.

Stutter by James , the only band i got into right at the very start

now goes into misty eyed remembrance .............

First saw James at a nightclub (Rizys now a shitty Soames casino) in Leeds with a capacity of about 200 and filled with everybody who used to go to the away matchs with Leeds (remember The Bridewell Taxis ?? ) . The stage was about 1ft high and 10 ft wide and only the drummer could fit on so the rest of the band had to stand on the dancefloor (which was only about 10ft sq) with only a line of monitors and a single bouncer to hold back the hordes. Four band gig as well starting with Rose of Avalanche then The Bodines , The Wedding Present (and George Best was pretty good as well in answer to the tread) and topped off by James.

Quality night, got talking to Tim Booth after the gig who was totally blown away by the energy & intensity of the crowd, said all the crowds on the rest of the tour had a decidedly 'folksy' feel to them, and then neary fell on the floor when he discovered we were all Leeds fans.

Can't disagree with the assessment, especially in terms of the whole package (music and artwork). I'd put the first Velvets album just behind it though, by virtue of the back cover and the song titles (trippy lighting and songs called Heroin and Black Angel's Death Song?); at least one knew that they weren't buying something along the lines of the early Beatles

In terms of overall cultural impact, with regards to the fact that they got better, I've got to put the first Ramones album up there; it confused the hell out of a lot of people. Also, I know the Pistols only made the Bollocks album, but I'd include that as well for the cultural impact as well.

To me the only other album that comes close in terms of defining a new sound is Surfer Rosa by The Pixies

Originally posted by dub To me the only other album that comes close in terms of defining a new sound is Surfer Rosa by The Pixies

Hey Jan - did you get my email mate? If not, drop me a line at glaucodon72@hotmail.com. when you can. Cheers CTB

Originally posted by CTB > Originally posted by dub> To me the only other album that comes close in terms of defining a new sound is Surfer Rosa by The Pixies

Hey Jan - did you get my email mate? If not, drop me a line at glaucodon72@hotmail.com. when you can. Cheers CTB

Just saw it and sent a reply

Shall we attempt to draw up our definitive list of best debut albums then ? You can name up to ten.

Originally posted by Shall we attempt to draw up our definitive list of best debut albums then ? You can name up to ten.

These are the classic debut albums in my record collection:

Johnny Burnette & The Rock'n'Roll Trio (1956 - featuring what may well be the first ever distorted, fuzz-tone guitar sound on record)

Buddy Holly & The Crickets - That'll Be The Day (1957)

The Beatles - Please Please Me (1963)

The Velvet Underground & Nico (1966)

Neu! (1971)

Jonathan Richman & The Modern Lovers (1972 demos - not a proper album)

The Sex Pistols - Never Mind The Bollocks (1977)

Pere Ubu - The Modern Dance (1978) + the first 3 singles

Joy Division - Unknown Pleasures (1979)

Echo & The Bunnymen - Crocodiles (1980)

Violent Femmes (1982)

R.E.M. - Murmur (1983) (ignoring the Chronic Town EP)

Pixies - Surfer Rosa (1988) (ignoring the Come On Pilgrim mini-LP)

Portishead - Dummy (1995)

The only minor blemish on Unknown Pleasures, in my opinion, is the placement of Wilderness between Shadowplay & Interzone. Maybe it would have been better to switch Wilderness and Shadowplay?

I feel that none of the outtakes belong on the album. Maybe a re-recorded Digital (the version on the Factory sampler is unfinished) could have been slotted in in the vicinity of Candidate/Insight (which truly belong together). But I quite like it the way it is .

But I sincerely hope that we will NOT be getting a 25th anniversary commemorative reissue next summer!