Run2 On CD? (outraged!) — Forum Archive

8 Sep 2004, 03:57

Sure this is old news here but I was wondering if (a) other people felt the same way and (b) if there was anything that could be done about it.

I thought I had 'Run2' when I bought '(the best of) New Order' CD when it came out years back. Of course, when I got hold of the actual Run2 12" I discovered that what London Records have labelled and sold me as Run2 is not the track on the 12". And this really ticks me off, actually. RETRO was another missed opportunity to get this track on to a CD proper. So what next? The only way it is going to happen/could happen is probably as a B-side or added track on a future single, a la 'Let's Go' on the '1963' single. So with the new album coming out (here comes the wishful thinking) I reckon the opportunity for this to happen comes with the 3rd single release, or maybe even CD2 of the 2nd one...? It's our only chance people, and it must be seized before another London NO compilation comes out with the horrible lie that is their 'Run2' track yet again!

I suppose this post is almost a kind of plea really - if anyone cares about this and knows anyone at London Records or New Order's management, let 'em know. I don't know if anyone has any suggestions on how to do anything about it. London Records seem pretty inept and it's not as if NO would ever consult fans on things, bless 'em....

Nice one, N

8 Sep 2004, 04:11

Something to do with Jet Planes and a refusal to pay dead monkeys any more money. I think. The track no longer exists.

8 Sep 2004, 04:21

I hear you BUT if this were the case, then why is there a 'Run2' on the (the rest of)? Granted, it is not the same mix (for one thing, the chorus guitars on the 12" are totally different) but surely all that Denver nonsense would still apply to something with the same name, if this really were the case?

Either way, London are just being rubbish by offering up that shoddy 3:35 edit on the comp as Run2...I think the main reason it's not on CD comes down to laziness and a lack of interest.

8 Sep 2004, 04:46

If London go beserk and release a video collection best of on DVD will the aforementioned be on it as was The Best Of VHS.

8 Sep 2004, 07:29

Hmmm, I too felt a bit cheated too when I thought the single version of Run 2 may be on (the best of) but quickly got over it :p As well as the "Leaving on a jet plane" (literally) legal nonsense it simply wasn't a very strong choice for single IMO. Especially when the majestic Vanishing Point was passed over in it's place, that song had real chart potential and remix quality. I mean have you actually listened to the Run 2 single? The Extended mix the most interesting out of the lot while MTO (and the Minus mix) sounds like a very very half-arsed attempt at a b-side that simply takes the piss out of the fans, what were they thinking? :eek:

As for seeing the track again, I doubt it. I wouldn't want the MTOs on CD anyway, I have the vinyl mp3s and they are caked in hard drive dust since about 1999. The Extended mix of Run 2 is interesting to listen to at times, I wouldn't mind having that properly sourced, but I'm not going to hold my breath. A properly remastered and not just VHS transferred (the best of) DVD from London may be the only future re-release of the 7" version.

To be honest I think once again we can't pin the blame on London entirely for this. If the band wanted to remaster (a'la PSB) or rerelease their videos as DVDs I suspect they could, if they actually pulled out the finger and told the record label to do it. I mean we should be thankful that none of the legal issues surrounding The Smiths back catalogue surround New Order's. My Queen Is Dead CD may never be remastered :cry: and that was a seriously shitty mastering to begin with. Johnny Marr is frequently quoted as saying he wants to remaster them but the legal wrangling with the four members of the band and their record label makes it impossible. :(

I know the lads in NO can be busy chaps at times, but they should really sit down with London and sort out re-releases of all their material on DVD and remastered double CD albums (1 Album + 1 Disc of rarities). Surely it's the right time?

Petition time maybe? :shrug:

Ally.

8 Sep 2004, 09:05

Point taken about the MTO's, they are a load of throwaway tosh, but 'RUN2' is not without it's spiky charms, with it's tinnier sound, scratchier guitars and stripped down vocals. That said, I'd still choose the LP version every time.

As for 'VANISHING POINT'; it is a great track, but any track that builds and peaks in it's 3rd minute as this one does (those spine-tingling chimes before the beat comes back in!) is surely not single material, IMHO. A butchered radio-edit single version would have been a terrible fate for so noble an LP track. And that closing stretch on TECHNIQUE just wouldn't have been as special afterwards.

And I totally agree about NO 'taking the piss' - there has always been an element of contempt involved with how they treat their fans. I think that is how Bernard copes with the attention to be honest - his wry smile when he describes NO fans in Neworderstory says it all really, in the same way that RETRO says it all in terms of how they approach their back-catalogue ie. unconventionally and up to this point, unsuccessfully. But this is all a part of how the band have made their music. SUBSTANCE only came about because Tony Wilson wanted to hear the singles when in his car, alledgedly. Even though Factory has gone, and Mr Gretton is no longer in charge, I think it boils down to them being difficult b'stads. This, in conjunction with London Records, means that NO fans are not going to be pleasantly surprised with wonderful reissues unfort.

I think Bernard would just take the piss out of Neil Tennant if the PSB approach was suggested to him by his mate. And I'll bet it was Johnny Marr who ensured that the first ELECTRONIC LP got the remaster job it did.

Just have to say that this is not a diss to Barney & Co., merely an observation. And it all makes sense - at least there is a consistency to it and the music is still up to scratch.

N

8 Sep 2004, 10:39

I agree with what you say about Vanishing Point as a single to a degree, but I'm certain a carefully chosen remixer (Oakenfold/Weatherall perhaps?) could have taken a blowtorch to the song and left it in a radio-friendly state that would not have upset New Order fans. The album version will always be there :) With Run, I have mixed views about that track that change every five minutes. I think the synth/guitar ending is beautiful and it's overall it's quite catchy and melodic, but the drums sound far too harsh IMO and Barney's lyrics are dafter than usual "Work your way to the top of the world/then you break your life in two"? Either that's a metaphor for the trappings of being a pop star or just utter bollocks :) Hehe, bless 'im.

The remastered grey cover Electronic CD was a stroke of genius and I'm very fond of my copy. If Marr was indeed responsible for that release then my opinion of him goes even higher, he could so easily have not bothered. The only thing worse than an artist releasing a bad song badly mastered, is them releasing a good song badly mastered! :nonono:

I hope the Order will get their act together and release a landmark album of older, rarer material that fans in decades to come will hold as dear as we hold the original Substance 87 compilation now. Retro disc 5 was so obviously clumsily compiled in 5 minutes (the most absurd tracklisting I've ever seen) and while containing some interesting stuff I'm glad to have, they very obviously should have put more thought in. Disappointingly, the whole Retro project was just a glorified best of to me, I owned ALL the tracks already (bar Live) which I'm sure many other folk on this board did too. Why did we need another best of when we had already Substance 87, (the best of), (the rest of), and International which was released rather perversely at the same time as Retro?? As interviews in the press stated, the band could not be arsed with the box-set and rather than lumber the responsibility with four "good friends" they should have shelved the project and come back to it when they felt "interested".

On the other hand, the Joy Division boxset was far better and despite them having smaller output than NO it really captured the band's spirit and all the essential tracks including unreleased stuff that were interesting as hell to listen to for the first time, such as the Ceremony demo, and In A Lonely Place (Detail).

Argh, I wish they would spoil us for a change :)

Ally.

8 Sep 2004, 13:16

Mislabeling by the label, that's it.

They done it before.. Mesh/Cries & Whispers

We were all expecting the single version, considering Mr Denver IS credited on it and receives $$ for all copies of the best of sold, they could have done it.

8 Sep 2004, 14:47

...Mr. Denver receives $$ ?... :confused2: ...may he rest in peace...

The Saviour.

9 Sep 2004, 02:10

Originally posted by Nick M Either way, London are just being rubbish by offering up that shoddy 3:35 edit on the comp as Run2...I think the main reason it's not on CD comes down to laziness and a lack of interest.

That 3:35 edit is 'Run 2', and it certainly hasn't been on any compilations! Some people mistakenly think that 'Run 2' is the 5:24 Extended Version, but the 3:35 edit was also called 'Run 2'. What appears as "Run 2" on 'The Best Of' is the 4:29 'Technique' version.

I'd certainly be up for signing a petition, exactly as stated here: for the remastered Factory albums plus a bonus disc of rareties/seven-inch mixes with each one. We've all talked about it here at length - with some debate about the validity of putting the seven-inch A and B sides on there, but I'd love to get them all remastered. The petition worked for 'In Session', so if we could get loads to sign it... Who knows? Christ, it's only 5 albums, if you exclude 'Substance'!

If nothing else, when so many classic albums have been remastered as technology has improved, don't New Order's classic albums deserve the same treatment? Bung on some of the vinyl we've all had a go at getting our own digital copies of over the years, and a few things we've not heard (such as the real instrumental version of 'Let's Go' from 'Salvation' - the more synth-based version, not the one actually on the soundtrack - and its original vocal version from 1985, the unedited 'Happy One', etc., etc.), and that'd be a bonus. Oh, to have the original 'Ceremony', the 'Temptation' seven inch and full-length 'Perfect Kiss' twelve-inch nicely mastered and digitized, amongst others...

Andy

9 Sep 2004, 02:17

Point taken re: 'Run2' on (the rest of). 'Tis maddening this whole business...

I always thought the 8m46s version of THE PERFECT KISS on SUBSTANCE was the 12" version but obviously not - so what's the deal on that one?

9 Sep 2004, 02:43

'The Perfect Kiss' 12" featured an additional instrumental passage at 7:03 (roughly the bit you can also hear on 'The Kiss Of Death' between 5:18 and 6:02), making it 8:46 in length. 'Perfect Kiss' (note, no "The") on 'Substance' is shorter at 8:02, with this passage tragically missing! God knows why, as they could have fitted an extra 44 seconds on the CD, even back in 1987. It's edited on the tape and CD of 'Substance', but the full-length 8:46 version was on the Factory vinyl version, for some odd reason.

Mr Discography's lecture now ends for the day.

Andy

9 Sep 2004, 03:00

Thanks for that - I actually thought that the presence/absence of a 'The' would have something to do with it but then thought, 'Surely not..'. Again, the logic, or lack thereof, is totally consistent with the band.

I wonder if they have to pay out royalties on the LP 'Run' as well as 'Run2' - if not, it would be totally NO that they are paying royalties out on something they shouldn't be since the (rest of) track is in fact 'Run' not 'Run2'. Maybe they would at least correct it to 'Run' for future pressings if this was the case, with this sudden money-saving incentive.

Talk about a messy discography...that's our band for you.

9 Sep 2004, 03:04

I'd imagine it's all versions of the song. It's to do with copyright and publishing. All the songs have the same tune, so it applies to all of them. I've a feeling the single was just called 'Run 2' to link it in with Saville's 'Bold 3' reference in the cover design.

Andy

9 Sep 2004, 03:22

Good call, that all makes sense really.

From one bit of unintentional musical plagiarism to another moment of potential "homage" - anyone notice that the beats on 'Our Love' by Donna Summer (programmed by Giorgio Moroder) which came out in '77(?), re-appear on 'Blue Monday'? It's pretty obvious, both are great tracks but no law suit. As with 'Unfinished Sympathy' and 'Special's coda.

And here's one that I wish had happened - how did the Jimi Hendrix estate miss 'Third Stone From the Sun' being ripped off in Right Said Fred's 'I'm So Sexy'? They probably didn't and it was settled behind closed doors to begin with...apparently Oasis have settled quite a few issues like this, for their appropriations.

That's enough of the ramblin'.

9 Sep 2004, 03:26

Originally posted by Mr Discography I'd imagine it's all versions of the song. It's to do with copyright and publishing. All the songs have the same tune, so it applies to all of them. I've a feeling the single was just called 'Run 2' to link it in with Saville's 'Bold 3' reference in the cover design.Andy

I'm sure at the time the makers of Bold actually complained about the sleeve. The whole Run 2 project seemed to be cursed from the off.

9 Sep 2004, 03:32

I think the sleeve says something like 'Sleeve by Peter Saville after Bold' - which doesn't actually mean they sought permission! I remember my Run 2 T-shirt being even more similar than the cover!

Andy

9 Sep 2004, 06:29

Originally posted by The Saviour ...Mr. Denver receives $$ ?... ...may he rest in peace... The Saviour.

Yes, when you try to license Run, John Denver is also listed as the artists, hence he'll get money (well, his heirs)

9 Sep 2004, 12:59

There was a story that the master tapes of Run2 and MTO were "damaged", co-incidentally around the time of Denver's lawsuit, hence why they have never been released on CD. (And presumably never will be, if that's the case...)

And anyway, didn't the lawsuit stipulate that Run2 was forbidden from being released subsequently?

9 Sep 2004, 16:08

The only bit of that John Denver song that sounds the same as Run is that Bass solo in the middle. I actually recognised a Pub band playing Leaving on a Jet Plane just by that line. Since all versions of Run contain that, I don't think its a copyright issue since yes Run did appear on the Best Of.

Something may indeed have gone wrong with the original masters for Run 2.

12 Sep 2004, 08:33

Originally posted by Mr Discography 'The Perfect Kiss' 12" featured an additional instrumental passage at 7:03 (roughly the bit you can also hear on 'The Kiss Of Death' between 5:18 and 6:02), making it 8:46 in length. 'Perfect Kiss' (note, no "The") on 'Substance' is shorter at 8:02, with this passage tragically missing! God knows why, as they could have fitted an extra 44 seconds on the CD

74' CD limit ??

12 Sep 2004, 09:37

Hey I got a thought...Scary I know :eek: , but didn't the Run2 Edit make it into the NEWORDERSTORY American version? I haven't seen that one in many many years as I own the Japanese version but I remember it being different for some reason. :confused2:

12 Sep 2004, 09:44

Originally posted by Sir CHUNKS Hey I got a thought...Scary I know , but didn't the Run2 Edit make it into the NEWORDERSTORY American version? I haven't seen that one in many many years as I own the Japanese version but I remember it being different for some reason.

Yes, but only released on VHS.

12 Sep 2004, 09:47

Originally posted by Hélène's friend > Originally posted by Mr Discography> 'The Perfect Kiss' 12" featured an additional instrumental passage at 7:03 (roughly the bit you can also hear on 'The Kiss Of Death' between 5:18 and 6:02), making it 8:46 in length. 'Perfect Kiss' (note, no "The") on 'Substance' is shorter at 8:02, with this passage tragically missing! God knows why, as they could have fitted an extra 44 seconds on the CD

74' CD limit ??

That's what the limit was back then, 74 minutes/650 MB. Somewhere along the way they managed to squeeze an additional 6 minutes/50 MB on but you'll still find the 650 MB CD-R's around.

12 Sep 2004, 09:49

Originally posted by Andy > Originally posted by Sir CHUNKS Hey I got a thought...Scary I know , but didn't the Run2 Edit make it into the NEWORDERSTORY American version? I haven't seen that one in many many years as I own the Japanese version but I remember it being different for some reason.

Yes, but only released on VHS.

Cool. Glad to know I haven't gone COMPLETELY ca-razy!

12 Sep 2004, 11:37

there are a handful of songs that were edited just for Substance, most notably The Perfect Kiss, Shellshock, and Hurt. strangely enough, my cassette version of Substance (US version, Qwest Records, 9 25621 - 4) has the full UNEDITED 8:46 version of The Perfect Kiss, complete with the instrumental passage that appears on 7:03. i reconfirmed this just 5 minutes ago after fishing out this cassette after years of storage. if anyone wants a clean version of the full version of The Perfect Kiss without sourcing they original 12" vinyl, i suggest to buy this cassette; i believe it's still in print.

there are a lot of songs i'm still hoping that will appear on CD one day: Ceremony (original 7" three piece), Temptation 7", The Perfect Kiss full 12". Shellshock full 12", Run2, etc...

12 Sep 2004, 12:23

'Subculture' was also edited on Substance, sensibly so in that case.

Andy

12 Sep 2004, 13:12

Originally posted by Mr Discography 'Subculture' was also edited on Substance, sensibly so in that case.Andy

Shame it wasn't edited down to the 0'00" version. :laugh:

14 Sep 2004, 13:44

Always wondered why they got sued by Denver/Denver's lawyers. "Leaving on a jet plane," doesn't sound anything like "Run" to me, and I love both songs. I just don't see it.

14 Sep 2004, 13:53

...finally Mr. Denver left us in a jet airplane (sic!)...