New Order Fan? Then do your part...

Originally posted by depthcharge > Originally posted by Hydrapelican> To this day I still haven't figured out why record companies don't take more advantage of the opportunity presented by "core" fans of bands.>

Jeez, this is the absolute opposite of most music fan sentiment the world over. Countless online forums and letters to music journals the world over are flooded with fans complaining of how they're taken to the cleaners by the record companies.

The hardcore fanbase buys the album on release only for the limited edition with extra tracks to appear six months later, then the tour edition appears, multiple formats, different international variants, etc, etc. Most hardcore fans are complaining that their loyalty is being raped by the majors.

:\pimp3:

Fair point...but since we are going to buy those extra versions/tracks anyway why not at least get them to us earlier?...at least we get some benefit that way...and more NO to boot.

Originally posted by Spotnick

And some artists like Interpol and The Cure have special internet sections where you can get special material with the CD key... too bad they don't have a real site, isn't it? ;)

and those keys are copy protected, can't be spread ...

Originally posted by Spotnick Well, they are doing this already... that's the point of limited editions.Hardcore fans will always be the first in line to get the new product, so I doubt people not really knowning New Order got the limited edition of Retro...But I doubt there will be a limited edition, although a DVD would be very nice of course.And some artists like Interpol and The Cure have special internet sections where you can get special material with the CD key... too bad they don't have a real site, isn't it? ;)

I personally wouldn't trade NOOL for an "official" official site...you do too good a job Nic.

Originally posted by One Brain Have you noticed who "Big Clive" is? Check his e-mail address. ;)

*Can't be seen now. Who is he? So has the album really leaked by now? Ordinary businness, happens all the time to other bands too. Myself won't even try to find it, wanna hear new songs when I put the CD in my stereo... A couple of songs in advance is great, but all of them no thanks...

Originally posted by MYOB > Originally posted by Big Clive> Just a note to whoever uploaded the lp. The promos released so far are all encoded with a digital id, so whoever you are, the bands management & label will find out who you are. They are aware it is out there & not particularly happy.

*cough*bull*cough*

Me arse they have digital ID's on them. Unless they've developed a way of storing coding data *in the audio*, anything else in the bitstream would be stripped by reencoding to MP3.

Also, after agressive encoding, particularly VBR MP3 encoding with psychoacoustics, the chances of an in-audio tag being readable are close to nil.

Erhm... you may want to check out your favourite audio-DSP mailinglist once in a while... There are a looooooooot of 1's and 0's to perform some (very) clever manipulation on in an mp3.

Check out the Activated Audio Watermark Technology here and here.

/TLV

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by MYOB> > > > Originally posted by Big Clive> > Just a note to whoever uploaded the lp. The promos released so far are all encoded with a digital id, so whoever you are, the bands management & label will find out who you are. They are aware it is out there & not particularly happy.>

*cough*bull*cough*

Me arse they have digital ID's on them. Unless they've developed a way of storing coding data *in the audio*, anything else in the bitstream would be stripped by reencoding to MP3.

Also, after agressive encoding, particularly VBR MP3 encoding with psychoacoustics, the chances of an in-audio tag being readable are close to nil.

Erhm... you may want to check out your favourite audio-DSP mailinglist once in a while... There are a looooooooot of 1's and 0's to perform some (very) clever manipulation on in an mp3.

Check out the Activated Audio Watermark Technology here and here.

/TLV

Thats something you THREATEN to use. The implanting and decoding technology costs a lot more than the piracy *actually* loses them - saying it loses them a sale per download is crap, they'll lose a sale per 100 downloads at max.

Also, claiming that watermarks like that are both invunerable to psychoacoustics and not able to be removed is crap also. Remember Apple claimed that FairPlay couldn't be stripped from its iTunes tracks, at all? And it took only months for there to be apps that 100% sucesfully remove it.

A bit of Black Marker around the barcode on the inside (silvered) ring stops the "encoding".

Record companies and bands take note:

Make good tunes +Play lots of gigs =Money

Bad tunes +Lawyers +shit "encoding" +scare stories to fans =No Money

Time the record industry stopped blaming poor sales on kids with computers/mp3s radios/audio tapes and started looking at the amount of pure drudge they use to take kids pocket money.

I think you're getting the trick to defeat Sony's Copy Protection confused with this

As a software engineer, I can tell you that *ANYTHING* that is done with software can be either replicated or undone with software. A digital watermarker is software, almost certainly.

Microsoft thought that their API was 'safe'. Look at the total DOS replacements and the WINE Windows emulation layer.

Apple thought iTunes DRM was safe, that Quicktime 5+ video was safe. HYMN and FFMpeg put paid to that

If Warner are watermarking CD's, believe me there'll be watermark removers pretty soon. Its a case of finding the mark and just dumping it and using cdparanoia-esque psycho techniques to rebuild the audio. If you saw the physical state of my copy of Get Ready and compared it to the sound quality that cdparanoia got out of it, you'd be surprised at how good SLY still sounds - the track was almost physically taken off the disk by me sitting on it in a pair of angry-teenager jeans with lots of metal protrusions...

Originally posted by HOOKY DON'T FLY COACH! If I shoplift a copy from each shop that I visit, will that help the band at all???

No but it will help you rebuild your CD collection that floated down the THAMES. DONT CARE IN THE COMMUNITY JEFF!

Radiohead put watermark in their last albums. I bought them and downloaded them...

They're gone anyway now. What a load of crap from that twat :bag:

Originally posted by HOOKY DON'T FLY COACH! If I shoplift a copy from each shop that I visit, will that help the band at all???

Don't know it could count as a sale.

Originally posted by Ronald Kirsch > Originally posted by HOOKY DON'T FLY COACH!> If I shoplift a copy from each shop that I visit, will that help the band at all???

Don't know it could count as a sale.

Nope. Has to run through the scanners to count as a sale.

And it has to be a networked store for it to actually count.

Originally posted by MYOB > Originally posted by TLV> > > > Originally posted by MYOB> > *cough*bull*cough*> > > > Me arse they have digital ID's on them. Unless they've developed a way of storing coding data *in the audio*, anything else in the bitstream would be stripped by reencoding to MP3.> > > > Also, after agressive encoding, particularly VBR MP3 encoding with psychoacoustics, the chances of an in-audio tag being readable are close to nil.>

Erhm... you may want to check out your favourite audio-DSP mailinglist once in a while... There are a looooooooot of 1's and 0's to perform some (very) clever manipulation on in an mp3.

Check out the Activated Audio Watermark Technology here and here.

/TLV

Thats something you THREATEN to use. The implanting and decoding technology costs a lot more than the piracy *actually* loses them - saying it loses them a sale per download is crap, they'll lose a sale per 100 downloads at max.

Also, claiming that watermarks like that are both invunerable to psychoacoustics and not able to be removed is crap also. Remember Apple claimed that FairPlay couldn't be stripped from its iTunes tracks, at all? And it took only months for there to be apps that 100% sucesfully remove it.

Ooops sorry, I thought the discussion was about "can watermarks survive mp3 encoding?" and not "can watermarks be removed?". :-/ Well, apparently you believe now that it can survive encoding. Good.

So, can watermarks be removed? I wouldn't say that it can never be removed. Joe Hack is pretty smart. But you can't compare a watermark to an mp3 (or aac track in the Apple-case) that is basically wrapped in a copyprotected shell.

You can remove the shell and obtain the audiofile. Watermarks are a different story. A watermark is more embedded into the bitstream, or the audio itself if you so wish. Have you ever tried to remove just a single instrument in a track? That's not very easy at all - close to impossible without severly chaning the tonal structure of the music. Especially with more complicated music - soundwise.

Will quality be degraded with watermarks? I'm not able to discuss that since my hearing is not up to par. But who can honestly hear the difference between a track that has a bitrate of 192kbps and a track with a bitrate of 195kbps (all other encoding parameter set the same)? Those extra 3kbps could be used for a watermark. 3072 bits per second is a shitload of bits if you want to add simple information (like a watermark, or unique number) to a track...

And I do believe that the labels will use it - not to track over-the-counter sold albums, but to hunt down the persons who leak promotional copies. The movie-studios will definetly use it. And they may very well enforce manufacturers of video recording devices to have a chip blocking recording something with that watermark. I.e., you may not even be able to copy a movie by filming the TV screen...

/TLV

Originally posted by MYOB Nope. Has to run through the scanners to count as a sale.And it has to be a networked store for it to actually count.

There was a case with the new Prince album (IIRC) in the US a couple of years back where some "sales"-top-lists based their information on sold albums (in the stores), and some on shipped albums (to the stores)... Well, Prince's label shipped a load of albums to the stores and went #1 (or something like that), but it didn't sell nearly that well... :)

/TLV

Originally posted by TLV > Originally posted by MYOB> Nope. Has to run through the scanners to count as a sale.> > And it has to be a networked store for it to actually count.

There was a case with the new Prince album (IIRC) in the US a couple of years back where some "sales"-top-lists based their information on sold albums (in the stores), and some on shipped albums (to the stores)... Well, Prince's label shipped a load of albums to the stores and went #1 (or something like that), but it didn't sell nearly that well... :)

/TLV

Thats why the have to pass through the scanners now. In Europe at least.

The last thing you described above about TV recording - it exists. Has done for YEARS. Its called Macrovision. A small leech that sits on the SCART or coaxial lead will detect and dump all the Macrovision flags if need be though - took a few years to kill it but kill it they did.

Macrovision had a nasty bite back - as well as recorders that recognised the marks refusing to record it, it could seriously confuse those that didn't recognise it and create bolloxed recordings due to where the marks were stored - the VBI...

If you've got the Pet Shop Boys PopArt DVD you can actually see the original Macrovision checkmarks across the top of the screen in one of the versions of Opportunities (the second, US release I think). They were visible when the tapes were played back on some kit.

Originally posted by Spotnick Oh, it's just somebody with red hairs...

*My God, Mick Huckanll is in the forum??!!! ;) Wow, fantastic, I quite like some Simply Red stuff, it's good sophisticated soul music... Mmmmh... more seriously... red hair? Don't know... Phil Cunningham? Really? Or Alex Staszko? Can't think of anyone else... Andy Robinson has not red hairs and... Hooky? It's not Hooky, right? He's not red... OK please send me an E Mail and tell me, I'm too curious to know and I just logged in too late to see his E Mail address...

Originally posted by MYOB The last thing you described above about TV recording - it exists. Has done for YEARS. Its called Macrovision. A small leech that sits on the SCART or coaxial lead will detect and dump all the Macrovision flags if need be though - took a few years to kill it but kill it they did.

No, I didn't mean Macrovision, more like the watermark scheme existing today (see this link) but with a real-time decoder chip in every recording device denying recording of a watermarked movie (kind of like the SCMS used for DAT tapes).

Yes, some geek will find out how to bypass the chip/functionality (and I will be the first one to buy a bypassed recorder), but it will hinder widescale pirating. The labels/studios aren't concerned about us techno-freaks who will go the extra mile to download something, they are worried when the pirate-technology gets so easy to use and mainstream that the moms&pops around the world can and will use it...

/TLV

Originally posted by Spotnick > Originally posted by Big Clive> Just a note to whoever uploaded the lp. The promos released so far are all encoded with a digital id, so whoever you are, the bands management & label will find out who you are. They are aware it is out there & not particularly happy.

And I do hope they find the person who leaked it, seriously!

I'm happy to have it, I can't wait to buy it, but it's a bit sad this happened so early actually.

On my side, I'll do all I can to avoid a massive "can you please send me" riot on this website.

BTW, welcome aboard!

It's been leaked by different sources... in different forms and forums