What is there in all this Joy Division? I'll tell you.

I think one of the things I really enjoy about Joy Division is that Ian Curtis brought the band "artistic discipline". I most often find myself listening to the music not for "doom and gloom" or something "Gothic", but for the pleasure of feeling someone driven by the integrity which has always produced great art.

Most artists seem driven by money or fame, or at least heavily influenced by it. They're pressured to release songs on a schedule, so as to satisfy journalists or safeguard their revenue stream. Or they worry that their new release is not in the Top Ten, so that consequently they're not "respected", and so they throw away their personal vision and make something that sounds like whatever's trendy.

Joy Division never subscribed to that. Perhaps they could only maintain their output for about a year-and-a-half (1979 to mid-1980), but for that time they set a very high standard. No release was crap, no B-side was a studio throw-away. And both albums have consistently great songs - if the song isn't great on the album, it's likely (if not certainly) great live.

Nothing Joy Division produced was for the money. Singles and albums did not appear in multiple versions with different covers, and singles were artistic statements separate from the albums themselves. (This is contrary to the regular practice of taking a song from an album and turning it into a single.)

And I don't think Ian Curtis was in it for any fame. His lyrics and stage antics were nothing "respectable people" would want to associate with, but he kept on with it all. In the Radio Blackburn interview he complains of journalists, "they like to get you boxed in, saying this group belongs to this category, and this group belongs to this category..." And then: "I don't think we belong to any category. ... We're four people who are playing the kind of music we want to play."

This is the reason Joy Division, twenty years after the loss of its lead singer and its subsequent breakup, still retains its artistic power and cult following. They knew music could well be something worth living and dying for, that music was not just some trivial pastime of boys in a garage or people who didn't take to regular jobs. (Bernard Sumner's claim that he didn't want a regular job may well be the reason New Order is not, in my assessment, timeless.)

Perhaps the most difficult thing that Joy Division faced, and still faces today, is a popular music scene obsessed with money and respect. To ignore such things, to view art as a completely different animal than making money or impressing the neighbors, to be willing to go to the extremes and sacrifice everything for the sake of one's vision - that is precisely the mark of greatness, and that's why, and how, Joy Division achieved immortality.

I hope I didn't become overly "high-minded". Sometimes one just gets in a mood...

Okay, one more... I feel like it's a "loose end"...

It's fundamentally none of my business the childhood of Ian Curtis. Perhaps he suffered some traumatic abuse, perhaps he was merely very sensitive to little things. But the fact is that he ultimately took his own life, and that's definitely worth a comment.

I certainly do not "encourage" anyone to commit suicide. I abhor violence committed in the name of virtually anything, including violence upon oneself, and in line with this I think that Ian Curtis' suicide was, in a sense, the exception to a life lived very differently.

Many people react to horrible events with anger or a thirst for revenge. But Ian was able to channel all his energy into something artistic, so as to ultimately leave us with something brilliant. There's a nobility in this, a decision to transform an atrocity into something profound, a decision to not let oneself be destroyed by life but instead to create something beautiful out of one's own tragedy.

This is something altogether honorable, even if in the end he felt that suicide was necessary. With the exception of his last act, I view Ian as setting an incredible example, one that is easily experienced by listening to the music.

I've read Martin Gray's posting on another thread, and I certainly don't want my comments here to be taken as insensitive to his situation, so I'll make some statement here in his regard. Mr. Gray will not likely read this, and he can feel free to ignore it if he does. (Since I don't know you personally, Mr. Gray, my comments could definitely be viewed as way out of line. I apologize in advance.)

You claim that people are chasing you around, but sometimes you have to realize that most people are fools. They have absolutely nothing in their own lives but the desire to exploit another's misfortune to their own advantage. These are fundamentally empty people, and I wouldn't view them as anything but parasites.

You've written that you've played in ten bands over the last five years, in part at least to "busy myself doing things that would take my mind off the shit that I normally have to put up with". You also wrote that you built up a "formidable [?] social circle of friends". Both of these actions are typically positive steps, but just as often you need to distance yourself from what you have known in order to see yourself more clearly.

You say you're thinking of seeking help, but that it would just mean "going through the same channels", and that "no amount of counselling [sic] or consultation with psychologists can ever 'cure' the problem. I have to go out there and seek to change my own little world myself, and if I can't do that then this torment will continue until I destroy little of what's left. And, as you can see, that's the most difficult part of it - getting that foot on the first rung as it were."

It sounds like you're really in a bad way, but you may be misdiagnosing your situation as simply relating to "weakness" or "lack of courage". (It's easy early on in things to completely misunderstand your own situation.) There are times in life, many of them, when you have to be like the Marines and just "suck up the pain", and there are also many times when that would be the stupidest response possible. Remember, the issues we deal with are often complex - and most people in the world are, unfortunately, not intelligent enough to understand this. I have a hunch you're not one of those people, and I think you'll not be deterred in the long run by platitudes and dumb simplicities, or the people who view them as reality.

In that final message (that I've read so far) you claim to want to escape to some isolated place. I don't think running away ever changes anything, nor does taking your own life, which it appears you may be thinking of, "solve" anything. Of course it's tempting at times, when the pain becomes too great, to just end it all. But the world, I think, will be a better place if you survive.

I'll make one last remark, on the subject of remarks itself - advice. Unasked-for advice is probably the most nauseating thing to ever receive. People believe they can snoop around your life, picking up clues, putting together a picture - and they think out of all this that they know exactly who you are and what you need to do. These are self-important asses, and their "advice" is nothing more than veiled put-downs. Such people are sometimes hard to ignore (even impossible), but that's precisely what they deserve. I'll hope you forgive me for, in this one moment, joining their ranks. I know that were our positions reversed, I would make such an effort.

Dear Morris Fan,

Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'not intelligent enough', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'self important asses', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm a man who recognises when someone is in pain and tries to offer a sympathetic word of encouragement, but then again, according to you, maybe i'm not. I suggest you THINK before letting loose with your longwinded diatribe in judgement of us who try to help our cyber friend Marty through his hard time. Maybe the knowledge that there are REAL PEOPLE WHO CARE in touch with each other on this forum will be all he needs to see him through. I hope so. Feel free to continue with your romantic notions about Ian Curtis now, honourable my arse!

Originally posted by Muffy Dear Morris Fan,Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'not intelligent enough', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'self important asses', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm a man who recognises when someone is in pain and tries to offer a sympathetic word of encouragement, but then again, according to you, maybe i'm not.

If I meant to comment directly on Martin Gray's situation I would have posted it on the thread set aside for that purpose. It was only because my posts here seemed tangential to his circumstances that I felt obliged to mention his name and comment.

As I said at the outset, Mr. Gray is utterly entitled to ignore my message. I meant it only as "insurance", in case he does in fact read my musings on Ian Curtis and, in his dire state, take it in a way that is completely unintended.

You are reaching out to someone in their time of need. I think that is clear from your postings and I have only the utmost respect for that. Perhaps I focus excessively on the cruelty of the world - if cruelty is the norm, then you are a wonderful exception.

I apologize for any offense. None was intended.

MorrisFan

I've read all your postings here guys and all I can say is ....I'm incredibly touched by it all. I don't really know what I can say in return for fear of coming across as feeble. All I can say is that I never ever expected this amount of empathy (or whatever it is you call it, specific adjectives or words occasionally still fail me, despite the appearances to the contrary!) even to the point that you appear to be holding debate on the issue of trying to understand and ruminate on my perceived unhappiness and what advice or solutions you feel I could seek to help overcome this. I value your thoughts and words most wholeheartedly and should I feel a slight upsurge in my mood and frame of mind over the coming days then at least I can say that sharing my anxieties and troubled thoughts with a select few of you here via this outlet will have borne at least a positive and constructive outcome. Thanks guys - for sharing this with us.

Marty

You know, I myself have been accused of a 'dour' temperament, and I would hate for my postings here to merely reinforce and further that perception. But life has many threads, some of them dour and some of them promising, and here I've focused entirely on the former.

Sometimes the world gives you no voice, no opportunity to speak your mind, and then it sees you for something you're not. Perhaps the Internet is helpful when it serves as a forum, giving free rein to oneself and one's identity, until one's "real" life is able to catch up.

Morris Fan

My thoughts have turned of late to that final single, 'Ceremony' with 'In a Lonely Place'. This is the single that never was, the two songs that missed entering the canon due to the demise of Curtis. And I can only guess what else there was in those final rehearsal tapes.

We know Curtis took his own life, but in a deeper sense the simple fact is that the music ended, the curtains were drawn together, and it all occurred before its time. Would it make much difference if people had simply stopped attending Joy Division performances, or if Curtis had felt pressured to give up the art and get a 'regular job'?

But we have what we have and we have nothing more. In a brighter mood we can cherish what was accomplished, what was created amidst it all, but in another mood we can only look into the void and wonder what could have been, what may well have been. And we'll never know at all.

I'll tell you that I've looked out, in the cold air of the night, at the western evening sky, and who knows what I found there? Who knows what a man holds inside, and of what he is capable? And who's to know or care if the sun rises earlier than it should, bringing it all to an end. That moment is important to me, and if I'm alone in that - so be it.

It seems the task is to somehow reconcile all of this, to restore one's faith that humanity is not merely a band of well-organized idiots, each strutting on his appointed stage, each signifying absolutely nothing. And all I feel is this 'new emotion', possibly one of Curtis' "different feelings and sounds". It's the sight of a mighty building eroded by raindrops, the sight of a man cut down in his prime, at the peak of his powers shooing away flies, the sight ultimately of a worm eating its own tail.

You could possibly forgive me, if you could see me, for my appearance of shock and horror. Does society always, ultimately, turn against itself? How many days can one man tolerate before it sinks in that there is no room for the great and strong - they're always outnumbered by the weak. And that if one is to survive one must sometimes throw away what is good and best, and become shallow and common. I'll survive my horror - I'm certain of that -, but it will resonate, like a faint hum, as a reminder of what was and could have been.

I conclude that everything that lives must die eventually, that one cannot make of anything an exception, and that everything has its own arc in time, only to be swept away ruthlessly, like a castle at the beach, by the incoming tide.

I dunno what the fuck youre going on about...but A) Ceremony fucking Rules as A NO song - It wouldnt have been any better had Curtis Have sung it...and B) How about seeing the good things in LIfe, and lets face it..there are enough of them if you try hard enough.

Marty, I've got every sympathy with you - and I'm not going to try and comment because I've honestly never felt in a way that you are obviously feeling now. Keep your chin up mate.

Originally posted by Shug > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> I dunno what the fuck youre going on about...b] Maybe it's the beer and voddy Sebsy...then again

Probably a bit of both...but its true though...utter shite..

One of the interesting things about music is how it means different things to different people, but it's all the same music. I'm entitled to my own opinion and my own experience - and to start a thread from my own musings.

Perhaps my writings mean different things to different people as well, and if to some they mean nothing at all? Well they're just utter shite, I guess, or maybe they drink too much.

MorrisFan

are you on acidcaps, morris????If so, send me some

Wait........Morris Fan is none other than Paul Morley! Pompous windbag, quit promoting Frankie Goes To Hollywood

Nope - Morley had a sense of humour, at least. I think our friend with the thesaurus and the bloody awful prose poetry should read "Touching From A Distance" and get it through his thick, pompous skull that depression ain't romantic on any level: Curtis was, as far as I can tell, a troubled and often deeply unpleasant young man. But I think he was as "ordinary" as everyone else, and the music he helped create has helped thousands of us lumpen fucking proles get on with our shallow little lives. Most people aren't stupid and unfeeling, but live lives of quiet desparation without elevating themselves to Sixth-Form Poet Laureate. Try looking somewhere other than up yer own arse, pal.

Just my opinion, naturally.

M.

Well said, MF....

Morley has a sense of humor? Never picked up on that much, though I suppose he'd have a laugh at my confusion over reading his bits in Ideal for Living. If he had only stopped with the intro piece, I'd have been fine, but....:(

at least morris fan didn't start another list. i appreciate when someone has something to say about neworder/joydivision that's from their own perspective. it beats the hell out of embarrassing yourself over some girl you've never met. morris fan has an opinion that deserves to be heard and while his writing is a little academic for this board, there's no harm in writing complete sentences that don't involve football scores.

Trust me, I regret opening up the Pandora's box that is list-making, so all apologies on that. Nevertheless, It sure beats the hell out of someone using a genuine topic to personnally attack another poster (as I think Morris Fan did with Martian). That's where common courtesy comes in. It's one thing to jokingly tell someone to "fuck off" when in reality you love hearing from them. It's another to kick them in the balls when they have a personnal problem they feel like sharing. Also, going on for three or four messages in your own thread, with no inferrance from other parties, is kinda annoying. i make it a rule to avoid responding to my own posts until someone else appraises it. It's a good one to live by, especially if you wanna make friends on the internet. As for the slobering over April/Liv/all the girls I've loved before, blow it out your ass. I'm having funwith the whole thing, it injects some humor into the situation to seem desperat over some girl I've never met, and barring a miracle of money and ability to travel, will never meet. Humor is my tool to fight off the onsets of depression and gloom that occassionally envelope me. If that pisses anyone off that I take a whole day to suggest sending a packet of sugar to Barney or propose the idea of flying to Scotland to negotiate a peace settlement with Britain, so what? Where's the harm? Sometimes you run out of serious stuff to discuss, and when you do it's time to bring out the comedy. If that pisses you off, perhaps you're too uptight. I apologize if you find me annoying or boring, you're entitled to your opinion. What got me was Morris Fan's dissing of the efforts to cheer Marty up. If you can't open up to people with your problems, that's fucking terrible (look what it did to Ian. If only he'd been able to confide in someone). I guess if what you're saying is that cutting up has no place here, then I would want nothing to do with this site. Thanks to the regulars, this site is a bright light in what might be an otherwise dull existance for many people. If that's a problem for you, if you can't handle our silly attitudes, I apologize. We'll just go on and on about how moving Ian's sacrifice was, if that'll make you happy.....

tabsy, you and i see Morris' comments to marty differently. i don't think he was out of line at all, in fact, he put that last bit about marty in to address the similarities between his original point about Ian and Marty's recent outburst of emotion. it was a footnote so people didn't misinterpret his post. Morris Fan went on a bit too far but so what. if you make your private feelings public, you deserve what you get. i keep mine hidden.....

You're right, sometimes personnal stuff shouldn't be open for discussion (that's what e-mail is for) but it seemed that when Marty was reaching out for help, Fanny Boy just gave him a slap to the face. The whole romanticizing of Ian's death is misleading and sysmtematic of a general understanding of the mind of someone contemplaitng death. By making it a noble sacrifice instead of a personnal choice, Fanny was turning it into an alternative to living, which is almost criminal in its impilications. He should know better than to give Marty a noose when he's at his lowest.....

From looking at all the [increasingly incoherent] speculation and blanket theorising that is occurring on board this thread at the present moment, all I can deduce from it, guys, is that there are only two types of people in this world - those who genuinely possess the capacity to reach out and empathise/feel for others, and those who genuinely excel in being patronising, condescending, blood-sucking, leeching parasites without an iota of conscience. That's why the human race can often suck. Decide which of the two camps you consider yourself falling into. Make of that generalisation what you will.

Marty

I wrote these pieces to convey to those who are interested what the music of Joy Division means to me. I may be alone in my thoughts on the band and what they accomplished, but I believe that one of the purposes of a music website is to *discuss the music*.

The entire purpose of this thread was to talk about Joy Division. Many people get excited about the two different versions of the second New Order single, and that's fine - but I listen primarily to Joy Division, and so it's exciting for me to log on to neworderonline.com to be able to converse with others about the music.

I appreciate martin fradley's remarks about Ian Curtis, as this was entering the realm of the kind of commentary I was expecting. (However, mf, I think Ian Curtis was much more talented than people give him credit for. You can take away the depression, and there's still quite a bit left. Just my opinion, though.)

One main point in these posts, if you want to pull out a strand, is that Joy Division was far more than just some post-punk band, some "Goth" band, some late 70's band, etc. They're a band completely worthy of analysis, a band whose music stands up to - even demands - repeated listenings. There are entire books devoted to comparing different performances of a Bach Mass, and I think one aspect of what I've done here is try to bring the same level of rigor and intensity to a discussion of the band. I did not mean to "go on for three or four messages in my own thread" to wipe out discussion. I meant to set something of an example, to say: "Feel free to write a long post - I wrote one (or three), so I'll read yours."

The most important point that I feel forced to make here, unfortunately, is that I have nothing whatsoever against Martin Gray. Quite frankly, I know nothing at all about him, and as I do not tend to read his threads (he seems not to be a Joy Division fan, and that's the only reason for that), I don't think it's appropriate to inject myself into his personal affairs. If you truly believe that I have some axe to grind with Mr. Gray, read very carefully everything I have written. My tone is formal, but fundamentally I'm frustrated, and that's just me. It was only after I had written a piece on Ian Curtis' suicide that I worried it would be taken the wrong way by Mr. Gray - if I had written nothing, I would *also* have been accused of insensitivity! I only hope the posts here by *Mr. Gray himself* confirm my intentions.

Taboo #7: I actually read your message to Mr. Gray and found it very touching. If someone close to me were in his state, I would hope to be as open as you had been. Please do not view me as kicking Mr. Gray when he was down, because that was most certainly not my intention.

martin fradley: For your information, I never once opened a thesaurus or dictionary in writing these messages. I wrote them in the course of about 2-3 days, more or less spontaneously. The occasional contrast may be crude and unmeditated, but I feel fine leaving it as it is. As for my style, given more time I could do something much better, but this is the holiday season, and I'm busier than that.

I know not everyone gets into Joy Division as I do, but I see myself as bringing out important aspects of the band, not as romanticizing them. I don't view Ian Curtis as some kind of icon to whom we should all bow down and worship, and I don't see the band as necessarily "proving" anything about life. We all make our own choices and live our own lives - Joy Division is no "excuse" for anything. But there is much more in the Joy Division than there seems, and if no one says anything at all about that - well, we might just view them as four fools who ran around Britain with a few instruments. And they're not, and sometimes "the truth" needs a voice, or takes longer to reveal than we would like.

It's ironic that in starting a "serious" thread about the band the vast majority of the posts here have nothing to do with the band at all. I hope, at least, that all the confusion that has been started will - with this message and perhaps short replies - be resolved.

Enough is enough!

Morris Fan

Are you Jean-Pierre whatsit ?

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen Are you Jean-Pierre whatsit ?

Turmel? No, and for the record, I think *that* essay is "utter shite". ;)

Originally posted by Morris Fan The most important point that I feel forced to make here, unfortunately, is that I have nothing whatsoever against Martin Gray. Quite frankly, I know nothing at all about him, and as I do not tend to read his threads (he seems not to be a Joy Division fan, and that's the only reason for that), I don't think it's appropriate to inject myself into his personal affairs. If you truly believe that I have some axe to grind with Mr. Gray, read very carefully everything I have written. My tone is formal, but fundamentally I'm frustrated, and that's just me. It was only after I had written a piece on Ian Curtis' suicide that I worried it would be taken the wrong way by Mr. Gray - if I had written nothing, I would *also* have been accused of insensitivity! I only hope the posts here by *Mr. Gray himself* confirm my intentions.

The point in all this is Mr Morris Fan, your *discussion of music* resulted in two of our regulars deciding to bugger off! You annoyed Muffy and he left (thankfully with some persuasion from the minx he returned!), and Martin is still intend on not coming back, no matter how much i try to talk him into it.

As for off topic posts, that is one of the things that has made this board so sucessful. Yes we are NO fans but we are also human beings, who like to chat to each other. Where would be be without the pringles/badger racing threads of the past?

And can i just point out to you that this is infact NEW ORDER ONLINE therefore discussing Joy Division is technically off topic....

Oh and by the way... Happy New Year...

Liv

Originally posted by Shug Mr.Morris I'm going to have to agree with Liv on this one, Marty and Muffstar are our forefathers - and if you upset them - you upset all of us....now don't do it again!

respect me.....respect the family....

Liv aka Liv Corleone

Originally posted by Geaux Hagen tabsy, you and i see Morris' comments to marty differently. i don't think he was out of line at all, in fact, he put that last bit about marty in to address the similarities between his original point about Ian and Marty's recent outburst of emotion. it was a footnote so people didn't misinterpret his post. Morris Fan went on a bit too far but so what. if you make your private feelings public, you deserve what you get. i keep mine hidden.....

Mr Hagen, you seem as utterly insensitive as MF with regard to handling another Human Beings feelings. To suggest that someone who displays their feelings publicly 'deserves what they get' absolutely beggars belief! Perhaps you keep yours hidden because you are simply afraid to show that you do harbour true emotions, like the rest of us, and want to appear to be in control of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone reaching out and saying 'hey guys, I could do with a hug here 'cause I feel sad'! Maybe like your emotions you should keep your opinions hidden too!!

Originally posted by Muffy > Originally posted by Geaux Hagen> tabsy, you and i see Morris' comments to marty differently. i don't think he was out of line at all, in fact, he put that last bit about marty in to address the similarities between his original point about Ian and Marty's recent outburst of emotion. it was a footnote so people didn't misinterpret his post. Morris Fan went on a bit too far but so what. if you make your private feelings public, you deserve what you get. i keep mine hidden.....

Mr Hagen, you seem as utterly insensitive as MF with regard to handling another Human Beings feelings. To suggest that someone who displays their feelings publicly 'deserves what they get' absolutely beggars belief! Perhaps you keep yours hidden because you are simply afraid to show that you do harbour true emotions, like the rest of us, and want to appear to be in control of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone reaching out and saying 'hey guys, I could do with a hug here 'cause I feel sad'! Maybe like your emotions you should keep your opinions hidden too!!

thanks Muffy As non-english speaking from origine it is sometimes hard to find the right words to react on some post..but i thank you now , i'm right behind you

ok....i've been reading the various posts and have little clue about what you guys are refering to. when was marty's painful posts that inspired this rant from mr. morris. mr. morris, you're a great joy division fan, but no offense, it's getting tiring to read your long posts that seems a little out of place on a message board.

Originally posted by Liv

The point in all this is Mr Morris Fan, your *discussion of music* resulted in two of our regulars deciding to bugger off! You annoyed Muffy and he left (thankfully with some persuasion from the minx he returned!), and Martin is still intend on not coming back, no matter how much i try to talk him into it.

As for off topic posts, that is one of the things that has made this board so sucessful. Yes we are NO fans but we are also human beings, who like to chat to each other. Where would be be without the pringles/badger racing threads of the past?

And can i just point out to you that this is infact NEW ORDER ONLINE therefore discussing Joy Division is technically off topic....

Oh and by the way... Happy New Year...

Liv

If you read the last sentence of Muffy's post, you will see that he had no quarrel with my continuing to post as I was. He didn't care for the "romanticizing", and there's nothing wrong with that view. As for Martin, he himself has written several times on this very thread - has anyone noticed that he responded in a neutral manner?

The issue more than anything else here was simply my tone of voice. Nothing I wrote was aiming for warmth or compassion, but that does not mean that I'm a heartless and cold person. It was the fact that suddenly I remarked on Martin Gray that my tone then seemed like a vicious personal attack. It wasn't, and it's not.

Yes, you're right - this is NEW ORDER ONLINE. But I do recall one of the webmasters saying that the site was just as much Joy Division as New Order. (Check out the concert, MP3, and discography sections.) However, even if the site is only 20% Joy Division, I think it really adds something to this place to seriously discuss the music. You don't have to like what I write or agree with it, but to criticize the fact that my posts are long - that's why I started this thread. On other threads I keep it pretty short and to the point.

And finally... I don't know how many times I need to recap this: The whole "picking on Martin" thing is a NON-ISSUE - there's nothing to talk about here. No one was insulting anyone, and no one felt that way. Now it's just that everybody keeps chiming in, reinforcing this terrible misperception. I don't want to address this any longer, because there's fundamentally nothing we need to address. Let's move on and talk about Joy Division! (Or New Order! ;))

I wish you all a very happy New Year... (yes, all of you!)

Morris Fan

Perhaps this would all be furthered to a resolution if I specifically addressed some of the dynamics at work. Of course, the main issue is that I fundamentally not "bother" people in the future - and no amount of talking is going to change that. ("Actions speak louder than words.") But maybe you'd all feel a bit better if you understood.

I've been of quite a "philosophical" state of mind for some time now. I studied mathematics in college, which is an interesting subject because you can always have a mathematical train of thought operating in the back of your mind, regardless of whatever else you're doing. But with "philosophy", everything you experience is part of the endeavor. There are no apparent boundaries (and there possibly shouldn't be) between that act and your other acts.

One effect of this is that you don't interact with other people in a way that is normal or comprehensible. You seem to make a big deal out of everything, or you seem not to react at all. The reality is that I'm always engaged in some kind of thought, and then I get involved in that thought to the extent that specific events around me get pushed aside.

To others, I come across as distant or in my own world, or something else entirely. Nothing I've written in this thread, for example, was meant "personally". I think if you read the messages, you'll see that there was definitely a philosophical distance to everything, a kind of "stepping back" to see the issues at work.

Of course, in reality people can and do take things personally. As this is simply a message board, I can only repeat that I meant none of it in that way, and I'll make a determined effort now to communicate myself more effectively. If anyone was offended by what I've written, I can only say that I am really very sorry.

(However, if you're simply disagreeing with the ideas or disliking the style, then we can just argue away. I can deal with someone seriously disagreeing with something I think or picking out a sentence which is "bad poetry". I can deal with real, genuine criticism - in fact, I have a lot of respect for it. But I'll also stand firm in my way if that's how I feel.)

My "philosophical" train of thought crested some time ago, and I'm moving on now, and that by itself is really the turning point. I hate to involve everyone here in some kind of separate aspect of my life, but sometimes you can't compartmentalize your life as you would like, and you just have to deal later with the consequences.

I don't truly believe that an "apology" is really what this situation is calling for, but take all this for whatever it all is. Just don't take it personally.

Sincerely, Morris Fan

Just foad, will you ?

Originally posted by Morris Fan

And finally... I don't know how many times I need to recap this: The whole "picking on Martin" thing is a NON-ISSUE - there's nothing to talk about here. No one was insulting anyone, and no one felt that way. Now it's just that everybody keeps chiming in, reinforcing this terrible misperception. I don't want to address this any longer, because there's fundamentally nothing we need to address. Let's move on and talk about Joy Division! (Or New Order! ;))

I wish you all a very happy New Year... (yes, all of you!)

Morris Fan

I did'nt see your rant as an attack on Marty. I saw it as an attack on those of us who had offered him some words of comfort and encouragement. If you think your ill informed comments regarding our intelligence and motives for doing this were not insulting or taken as an insult then your own intelligence must be questionable to say the least.

Your cold analytical rantings on both the JD thing and Marty's situation seem to me to lack the one fundamental element that makes us human, EMOTION! Perhaps it's time to drop the philosophical outlook and start to FEEL the magic within the music and see if it can indeed stir some emotive responses from you, even if that is only the occasional goosebump!

Happy New Year by the way.

Originally posted by Muffy

I did'nt see your rant as an attack on Marty. I saw it as an attack on those of us who had offered him some words of comfort and encouragement. If you think your ill informed comments regarding our intelligence and motives for doing this were not insulting or taken as an insult then your own intelligence must be questionable to say the least.

Your cold analytical rantings on both the JD thing and Marty's situation seem to me to lack the one fundamental element that makes us human, EMOTION! Perhaps it's time to drop the philosophical outlook and start to FEEL the magic within the music and see if it can indeed stir some emotive responses from you, even if that is only the occasional goosebump!

Happy New Year by the way.

Hopefully you wrote this in the brief span of time between my last two messages. I was really overreacting in the first and in the second I tried to just be down-to-earth with where I was coming from.

One of the aspects of what I wrote was that I felt I only needed to say something once and that it would be heard that way; I'm thinking of my 'disclaimer'. I was not in the usual back-and-forth mindset of conversation. My fault - this is a message board.

I think only time is going to show people that I do not typically write these sorts of 'essays'. It's just sometimes you need to get things off your chest.

... However, of course I feel the emotion of the music! How can you not? I was just taking a very analytical approach on this thread. Perhaps I went 150% with that approach...

Morris Fan

(And I'll assume 'foad' means "Free yourself from Overbearing and Annoying posters who Deliver pointless comments"! ;))

Originally posted by Morris Fan It's fundamentally none of my business the childhood of Ian Curtis. Perhaps he suffered some traumatic abuse, perhaps he was merely very sensitive to little things. But the fact is that he ultimately took his own life, and that's definitely worth a comment.I certainly do not "encourage" anyone to commit suicide. I abhor violence committed in the name of virtually anything, including violence upon oneself, and in line with this I think that Ian Curtis' suicide was, in a sense, the exception to a life lived very differently.Many people react to horrible events with anger or a thirst for revenge. But Ian was able to channel all his energy into something artistic, so as to ultimately leave us with something brilliant. There's a nobility in this, a decision to transform an atrocity into something profound, a decision to not let oneself be destroyed by life but instead to create something beautiful out of one's own tragedy.This is something altogether honorable, even if in the end he felt that suicide was necessary. With the exception of his last act, I view Ian as setting an incredible example, one that is easily experienced by listening to the music.

Re Morris Fan

Quite serious and touching stuff to read for someone who cannot seem to net-communicate.

• But how can we now that the suicide was a well-considered and necessary decision and not a spontaneous decision from a small depressed period in his life where apparently no-one else noticed his depression??

Not often that Mark Johnson got things right in "An Ideal For Living", but I for one happen to agree with his text on Curtis's suicide (even if, as we all know, the lack of comment was because nobody would give him any info to twist and get wrong).

For those who don't know what he said, it was "speculation is not only futile but also an invasion of privacy".

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen Not often that Mark Johnson got things right in "An Ideal For Living", but I for one happen to agree with his text on Curtis's suicide (even if, as we all know, the lack of comment was because nobody would give him any info to twist and get wrong). For those who don't know what he said, it was "speculation is not only futile but also an invasion of privacy".

Re Nigel S

• I couldn't agree more!

Another subject - net-communication: Btw, From personal experience I learned "an invasion of privacy" is a quite popular net-behaviour, and sensible persons should probably stay away to avoid getting trapped in a depression...in a defenceless situation. How can I find humour from that situation, maybe by playing Pere Ubu's "Humour me"?

I agree, Johnson's comment was appropriate

Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by Geaux HagenToo intellectual? Well, like I said, I don't mind that because I'm guilty of being an intellectual myself, which is obviously not the case for many people on this board who are part of the "working class, football holligans" type of fans that Barney was describing in NewOrderStory.

There is a very fine line, though, between intelligent and pertinent comment and pretentious and sycophantic diatribe, and it has to be said that on occasion our colleague Morris Fan has tended to drift/shift/jump towards the latter. There is nothing wrong with attempting some analysis on the work of either Joy Division or New Order per se, but the writer always runs the risk of descending into quasi-intellectual "I know lots of big words and can use them" territory. The problem with the posting at the top of the thread, and the subsequent reactions from a number of the "football hooligans" who post on here, is that it could be construed as being deeply offensive to one of our number who had openly admitted to looking deeper into himself for answers than some may dare venture.

Choosing to respond to a thread with a simple, succinct and maybe irreverant message at times is the prerogative of the poster. It is not necessarily the mark of a "football hooligan" ! How many football hooligans do you know with Masters Degrees ?

This would be a dull place if not for all the interesting tangents that develop. You start a thread never knowing in what direction it will turn. I'm always surprised how something someone does as an opinion/observation/list can often become much more interesting with feedback that has absolutely nothing to do with the original thread. That's why I still hang around, that's what makes it interesting.

Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by Liv>

I think your reaction is totally UNFAIR, UNJUST, UNCALLED FOR, and simply over the top.S.

This'll probably make me Public enemy #1, but this reaction is also just a little bit over the top ! Shall we all chill and start again with threads about New Order and Joy Division ?

Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by Geaux Hagen> at least morris fan didn't start another list. i appreciate when someone has something to say about neworder/joydivision that's from their own perspective. it beats the hell out of embarrassing yourself over some girl you've never met. morris fan has an opinion that deserves to be heard and while his writing is a little academic for this board, there's no harm in writing complete sentences that don't involve football scores.

My own opinion exactly, but in my case, I don't really mind his academic writing -- quite the contrary actually. It's weird, but I hadn't paid attention to this thread until today and I found very interesting all that Morris Fan had to say about Joy Division and Ian Curtis.

I thought this was A LOT MORE interesting than the constant messages I read on this board that are usually one-liners about something futile. I think the message board would be better if half of the messages were in the same trend as those by Morris Fan.

Too intellectual? Well, like I said, I don't mind that because I'm guilty of being an intellectual myself, which is obviously not the case for many people on this board who are part of the "working class, football holligans" type of fans that Barney was describing in NewOrderStory. I am rather in the second group, the "spotty students" (whatever SPOTTY means), even though I'm not a student anymore.

I certainly do not have the intention of slagging off people who THINK before they write or speak, which is a seldom thing these days, unfortunately.

Seb.

Re Seb:

Interesting piece of message. I know it can be quite tempting sometime to speculate on and analyse people and slagging people off here, but. O.K. Barney may have categorized the fans in one interview "football hooligans and spotty students", and that's probably not a very intelligent thing to say, cos the fans are most certainly individuals, from people with steady jobs, disabled, football fans, students. O.K and Morris Fan's messages were very well written and I never meant to slag him off for that, but I only reacted negatively when speculated about the reasons for Ian Curtis' death, but that's what the press love isn't it, speculations. A pretty dark thing to do..

But, perhaps New Order never meant to be a "intellectual band" as Joy Division were, lyricwise, but we still love'em for the music they make.

Can we all just agree to disagree on this and move on? Enough please, on to the next topic.....

Oky MF, if I took your comments the wrong way I apologize, and subsquently do so for the slagging I gave you. As one of the spotty student variety, I can appreciate intellectual discourse, but I also have ahealthy sense of humor. The board needs a nice mix of that, not one way or the other. Fucking hell, the world's collapsing around our feet the least we can do is try and keep some form of sanity.

Originally posted by Sébastien Boisvert > Originally posted by Muffy > > > > Originally posted by Geaux Hagen> > tabsy, you and i see Morris' comments to marty differently. i don't think he was out of line at all, in fact, he put that last bit about marty in to address the similarities between his original point about Ian and Marty's recent outburst of emotion. it was a footnote so people didn't misinterpret his post. Morris Fan went on a bit too far but so what. if you make your private feelings public, you deserve what you get. i keep mine hidden.....>

Mr Hagen, you seem as utterly insensitive as MF with regard to handling another Human Beings feelings. To suggest that someone who displays their feelings publicly 'deserves what they get' absolutely beggars belief! Perhaps you keep yours hidden because you are simply afraid to show that you do harbour true emotions, like the rest of us, and want to appear to be in control of them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone reaching out and saying 'hey guys, I could do with a hug here 'cause I feel sad'! Maybe like your emotions you should keep your opinions hidden too!!

I agree with that as well, but I think this is a derivation of the topic here -- Morris Fan's intentions were good. he didn't mean to harm, and I don't even think MARTY HIMSELF reacted badly to that.

So what's the problem in the first place?

You judging for MARTY, in place of MARTY, for something concerning MARTY only.

People don't minding their own business. This is what I see.

I don't like "gang reactions" -- people who will react a certain way just because their leader of people from their gang reacted that certain way, and often this reaction will be against an individual. In cases like these, I tend to be on that individual's side, especially if I think the basic reaction of the "gang" is not founded (n'est pas fondée).

I even feel that one of the peoples in this "gang" slagged off Morris Fan just for the pleasure of slagging him off after reading a few line of his Joy Division text, and got bored because it was too intellectual for him.

S.

Dear Seb,

I can't speak for anyone else here with regard to this thread and the way it has developed but in my own case I took objection to being labeled 'not intelligent enough' and as a 'self important ass'. He was not having a pop at Marty but rather at those of us who had offered him kind words. I was not responding to that for anyone but me. When I see someone apparently criticising me IT IS MY BUSINESS AND RIGHT to respond to that. I have no problem whatsoever with MF's thoughts on JD or Ian Curtis' suicide though I do disagree with the romantic notion he appears to have that it was hounorable or noble of him to do it.

Your comments about 'gang reactions' is a little over the top too. YOU have created a community here, a Joy Division / New Order website with a forum / message board. It is only natural that through time the regular contributors to this place will become friends. That means we will grow fond of each other and consequently defend each other when attacked, and that is all that happened here. It has to be said though that had it not been for MFs initial provocation it would never have happened.

As for 'off topic' messages, if it really is something that bothers you then put a stop to it. Do as Shug suggests, close the thread, issue the warning, e-mail the offender and then boot them out after strike three. I'm sure you'll have good reason to boot the lot of us by February. Alternatively you could accept that there is only so much to say about New Order until they do something fresh. The choice is yours, you have the power!

To react negatively when it comes to a small part of the messages, speculations, is hopefully not the same as insulting someone...

I have been avoiding many of the topics these days because of the severe increase in personal, off topic messages. I don't think they are always bad but i was hoping the Instant Messenger would divert some of the chat to a suitable chat resource like the Instant Messeging system liv was promoting. the solution may be as simple as putting OT on the title of the topic if it's created for off topic commentary like the Monty Python thread. I think the topic starter can change the name of the thread when discussion veers into foreign territory. It would be useful if the name of the thread had something to do with the content within (of course, i prefer neworder to not name their songs after lyrics within but...) With so many personalities in one place, it's natural for a few to bump into each other now and then. Viva New Order!!!

Just write what you think, you don't have to drink.

Cheers!

but the word doesn't necessarily say that you drink - it's just out of politeness, make a good atmosphere when you communicate with someone on the net that you don't know at all, (I think).

what's the smile code for that?

In response to the comments posted by Seb

So this is THE reason they left?Bollocks!

At the time this thread took hold, both Muffy and Marty left the board. It is not "bollocks",its a fact. And my comments were grounded. Both were upset by the way things had turned out here, and both felt that they should leave.

Liv but I don't think you are entitled to slag Morris Fan because he posted something on Joy Division since MOST of your messages are usually OFF TOPIC

I actually didnt slag MF for posting anything about JD, my last comment about this being a NO board was "tongue in cheek", perhaps my sense of humour is lost somewhere across the Atlantic. As for most of my comments being off topic... yes, you are right, there is no denying it. If, however, I have offended people by my posts, then I am sorry. I do post on all topics here, some on topic, some off topic, depending on what i feel is relevent to say. I am more than willing to remain as an on topic only poster if that is what people want. The last thing I would want to do is offend anyone.

My problems with what were said on this thread were totally nothing to do with MF's comments on JD, but on the discussion of Marty and those people who helped him. (in fact as an English teacher, his essay on JD should be comended) More than anything it was to do with the fact that this thread had upset two people who i consider to be my mates. If you read back to what i said, I never made any comment on MF's JD discussion.

It's strange that I am now in the camp against those who I usually like and friendly with, but I think your reaction is totally UNFAIR, UNJUST, UNCALLED FOR, and simply over the top.

In fact Seb, my reaction was not as dramatic as you appear to think it was. I simply pointed my impression of how this board works, and how off topic messages are part of what NOO forum is about. If you don't like the way the board has become, then perhaps you should introduce a extra forum for off topic posts. I visit another website for another band and their forum has over 20 actual boards, including one called "Open Discussion Forum" which can cover any topic you like. It stops any agro and allows people to post messages to the friends they have made.

In fact, I think your reaction to my post was uncalled for, unjust and unfair, and without a doubt over the top especially as my post was not a personal attack on MF's comments.

This board has become a real haven for NO fans the world over and you should be proud of that, its the best NO website there is, without doubt. I have made some great mates here, and I hope to goodness things here can get back to normal. I enjoy coming here, and believe it or not, being able to post here in the past few weeks with my own personal problems has been a great relief, has given me something to take my mind off the issues I am dealing with.

Seb, I dont want to take sides, or be involved in any camps (Jesus its like Lord of the Flies here?!?!) but I feel that I had to say this. I hope I havent stirred anything up again, and that we can finally lay this discussion to rest.

Liv

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert I thought this was A LOT MORE interesting than the constant messages I read on this board that are usually one-liners about something futile. I think the message board would be better if half of the messages were in the same trend as those by Morris Fan.

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen There is a very fine line, though, between intelligent and pertinent comment and pretentious and sycophantic diatribe, and it has to be said that on occasion our colleague Morris Fan has tended to drift/shift/jump towards the latter. There is nothing wrong with attempting some analysis on the work of either Joy Division or New Order per se, but the writer always runs the risk of descending into quasi-intellectual "I know lots of big words and can use them" territory.

I really appreciate Seb's views here, but I also do not wholly disagree with Nigel's. Much of my writing was getting several issues off my chest, issues of my own that I saw very much paralleled in the Joy Division chronology and experience. My writing was an attempt to convey that perspective, which means that I spent a great deal of effort on *how I felt* and not so much at all on (for example) quoting sources, mentioning specific dates, or observing the conventional opening paragraph/body text/closing paragraph format. On one level these writings are metaphors. [velocity girl posted elsewhere about this - I'm agreeing in large part with her comments.]

But I also think that the points I make about Joy Division are quite legitimate - irrespective of me. And several people here - martin fradley and Frode Nordmarken come to mind - made one or several efforts to talk about the issues I brought up. That's what I was expecting.

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen For those who don't know what he [Mark Johnson] said, it was "speculation is not only futile but also an invasion of privacy".

This was NOT the kind of commentary I was expecting. I appreciate someone taking the time to quote from a book about Joy Division, but if you've read a book, you're in a better place than most (perhaps) to seriously discuss the band, which was this thread's main purpose.

Originally posted by Liv And can i just point out to you that this is infact NEW ORDER ONLINE therefore discussing Joy Division is technically off topic....

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert This website is as much about Joy Division as it is about New Order! Should we buy www.joydivisiononline.com as well to prove it?

Vindication!

On the topic of "off-topic postings", my main view is this: I don't mind one or two offhand comments, but I think a thread is there in the main for the thread's title, and I try to stick to that. I'll confess that I started one non-NO/JD thread (my "How are you spending New Year's?") but at least the content of the thread matched the title!

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen The problem with the posting at the top of the thread, and the subsequent reactions from a number of the "football hooligans" who post on here, is that it could be construed as being deeply offensive to one of our number who had openly admitted to looking deeper into himself for answers than some may dare venture.

Originally posted by Liv My problems with what were said on this thread were totally nothing to do with MF's comments on JD, but on the discussion of Marty and those people who helped him. (in fact as an English teacher, his essay on JD should be comended) More than anything it was to do with the fact that this thread had upset two people who i consider to be my mates. If you read back to what i said, I never made any comment on MF's JD discussion.

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert Morris Fan only wanted to do well -- he didn't have any bad intentions, IT IS SO OBVIOUS!

Exactly! I started this thread on the topic of Joy Division (read the title of the thread). My first two 'essays' were entirely on the subject of JD/Ian Curtis, and only the third delved into Martin Gray's situation. When voices emerged claiming that I was attacking those who were supporting Mr. Gray, I immediately asserted otherwise. When these posts kept appearing, I was willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt: if you were seriously offended, here's a pretty darn good apology. There's nowhere further to go with this!

As far as this thread is concerned, I have no further thoughts (read: essays) on Joy Division in the offing, and I imagine I'll be too busy to write one anyway. However, for that handful of people that enjoyed even a moment of it - cheers.

Morris Fan

Originally posted by Morris Fan

You claim that people are chasing you around, but sometimes you have to realize that most people are fools. They have absolutely nothing in their own lives but the desire to exploit another's misfortune to their own advantage. These are fundamentally empty people, and I wouldn't view them as anything but parasites.

It sounds like you're really in a bad way, but you may be misdiagnosing your situation as simply relating to "weakness" or "lack of courage". (It's easy early on in things to completely misunderstand your own situation.) There are times in life, many of them, when you have to be like the Marines and just "suck up the pain", and there are also many times when that would be the stupidest response possible. Remember, the issues we deal with are often complex - and most people in the world are, unfortunately, not intelligent enough to understand this. I have a hunch you're not one of those people, and I think you'll not be deterred in the long run by platitudes and dumb simplicities, or the people who view them as reality.

I'll make one last remark, on the subject of remarks itself - advice. Unasked-for advice is probably the most nauseating thing to ever receive. People believe they can snoop around your life, picking up clues, putting together a picture - and they think out of all this that they know exactly who you are and what you need to do. These are self-important asses, and their "advice" is nothing more than veiled put-downs. Such people are sometimes hard to ignore (even impossible), but that's precisely what they deserve. I'll hope you forgive me for, in this one moment, joining their ranks. I know that were our positions reversed, I would make such an effort.

Seb, maybe you had to have taken part in the thread where Marty first made his feelings public in order to percieve some sort of put down in these remarks quoted above, however I do not believe that to be the case. I do think you would have had to have read that thread to realise who the comments were aimed at. If MF says they were not aimed at anyone I think that is because he does'nt have the guts to stand by his own convictions. Even if they were not aimed at anyone specifically the comments were still ill advised to say the least.

From my own point of view this topic was dead long ago but people keep bringing it back with their own tuppence worth of comment. The percieved digs from Morris fan did contribute to me quitting this site at the time but I quickly realised I was being a hypersensitive baby and came back. He was'nt the only factor, I too get the occassional e-mail from visitors to this site, not all of them friendly fire.

If any of my comments or the tone I made them in offended you i'm sorry. I was only trying to get my point across as clearly as possible. I do agree with you that some of the comments made by others on this thread were needless and unconstructive but I don't think any real malice was intended, at least I hope not.

Anyway, it's long overdue that this nonsense was put to bed and forgotten about. I bear no ill will towards MF whatsoever, i'm not that type of person. Maybe we can all join together in a group hug and move on. I hope so.

I think I can embarassedly stand up and say I was one of those who made unconstructive comments, and would like to apologise if I added fuel to the flames early doors. I read the comments as insensitive and vaguely offensive initially and if they weren't the case then fair enough. I was wrecked at the time as well which didnt help.

this thread has obviously well outstayed its welcome but fuck it, I wanted to have another say

Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ? :)

Nigel sez:

"Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ?"

That's pretty funny stuff, Nigel. You should take that material on the road. "Nigel will be here all week, folks. Always a different show. Be sure to tip your bartenders and waittresses."

Let's revisit some of your more choice comments (attacks) toward me and my country.

"You, Mr McDermott, have sadly displayed many of the traits of an asshole in this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone in requesting this thread be closed and the subject closed. "

.....and who can forget this one......

"God bless the Statue of Bigotry. Pity they missed it really."

Nice, Nigel. Nice............. diversity......."each to their own..." :dotdotdot:

Well this is the first time I've entered this threadbare and 'cor blimey what the holy moly just went on in here then? ... is it like a proper scrap or what? ... still can't believe old Sebsy Boisy Feet's still banging on about people who go off-topic when he does it himself a billion times a day, not wanting to mention Canadian sports or anything. And just which faceless toe-rags are e-mailing you instead of voicing their opinions? ... do they have a name or should we refer to them as just 'a cat'.

Seems to me like a few people have got hot under the collar bone over several issues crossing many and various threadbares, conflicting between people's opinions.

Whoever wrote 'not intellectual enough' wants a fucking boot up the bastard arse. The mere notion of this infers you are a tosser of legendary proportions and I can understand how the magical MuffMan has taken exception to this. Surely this place isn't where fellow comrades shout such unnecessary dribble at one another is it? ... I mean, not intellectual enough ... ha! ... 'tis made me chuckle and laugh out loud. Whoever said that wants to take a Mensa test and post the results so we can all have a good laugh. I mean, for fuck's sake ... you can't judge a cat by its whiskers can you? ... how can you derive who's the more intelligent in this crazy place!!!?

Let's live and let live kids, we could all be dead tomorrow and this thread is like an ugly scene from the 80's banned horror 'Last House on the Left'.

(actually no its worse)

... sorry to go on but Sebsy saying that this place isn't a chat room, instead a discussion group? erm, we chat in a discussion group don't we? and we discuss in a chat room?

What a mess.

People cannot refer directly to New Order or JD all of the time. Barney, for instance, has two eyes and a beak. If we mention either of these is this off-topic? ... I mean, it relates to Barney, who plays in the band.

Far too critical.

Originally posted by Michael McDermott Nigel sez:"Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ?" That's pretty funny stuff, Nigel. You should take that material on the road. "Nigel will be here all week, folks. Always a different show. Be sure to tip your bartenders and waittresses."Let's revisit some of your more choice comments (attacks) toward me and my country."You, Mr McDermott, have sadly displayed many of the traits of an asshole in this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone in requesting this thread be closed and the subject closed. ".....and who can forget this one......"God bless the Statue of Bigotry. Pity they missed it really."Nice, Nigel. Nice............. diversity......."each to their own..." :dotdotdot:

(Adopts H.Blofeld voice) My dear old thing......you seem to be missing the point. My comment about diversity was a direct recognition of the webmaster's sponsorship of diversity in an earlier post on this thread. My reference to you as "an asshole" on your vile and uncalled for thread about the French, which quite rightly received universal comdemnation, is a completely separate matter. I stand by my comment in its entirety. As was pointed out to you, you were well out of order in that thread. My having French blood is obviously irrelevant to your mongrel outlook.

Oh, and for the record, you may find that my reference to the "Statue of Bigotry" was in fact a Lou Reed quote, you know the one, that "bisexual Jew junkie" American whose songs you may even have heard. Check his "New York" record.

Have a nice day !

Dearest Nigel sez:

"(Adopts H.Blofeld voice) My dear old thing......you seem to be missing the point. My comment about diversity was a direct recognition of the webmaster's sponsorship of diversity in an earlier post on this thread. My reference to you as "an asshole" on your vile and uncalled for thread about the French, which quite rightly received universal comdemnation, is a completely separate matter. I stand by my comment in its entirety. As was pointed out to you, you were well out of order in that thread. My having French blood is obviously irrelevant to your mongrel outlook. Oh, and for the record, you may find that my reference to the "Statue of Bigotry" was in fact a Lou Reed quote, you know the one, that "bisexual Jew junkie" American whose songs you may even have heard. Check his "New York" record. Have a nice day ! "

If you'll take your seat, I' ll break it down so that you, dearest Nigel, can understand.

Firstly, I was NOT universally condemed. You may wish to reread the threads. A better job of fact checking is called for on your part.

Secondly, you finding me an "asshole" for views in which I strongly believe makes you closed minded, most definitely not egalitarian, and, worst of all ,totally againt the tenants of diversity.

Thirdly, how interesting it is that you leave out the rest of your quote concerning the Staute of Liberty. You know the one, the one where you say it's a "pity they missed it." I can only infer from this hate speech that you express open disappointment that there was not more loss of life in NYC.

My dear, dear Nigel. That's the difference between us, mate. On THIS side of the pond, I may find what you say to be the most vile, outrageous venom known to man. BUT, I will defend to the death your right to say it. Oh yeah, I can own as many multi-shot rifles, shotguns and semi-automatic pistols as I want as well. Props to me.

Your colonist cousin,

The Ugly American

Just seen this thread now...

Won't be long cos it can go on forever.

I too find myself annoyed with the amount of off-topics threads sometimes.

But is it really off-topic ? I mean, we're here as NO-fans and, even when we don't talking about NO, it's the point of view of NO fans.

Now, I guess, as it has already been said it's all a matter of balance.

No NO in topics anymore would really be annoying. But only NO things would be too.

Well, I should stop now about all this but I had thought about this thing for quite some time, even thinking of creating a thread about the "off-topic" subject. So I thought this one was a good place to say this...

Take care everyone...

Originally posted by Michael McDermott If you'll take your seat, I' ll break it down so that you, dearest Nigel, can understand.Firstly, I was NOT universally condemed. You may wish to reread the threads. A better job of fact checking is called for on your part.Secondly, you finding me an "asshole" for views in which I strongly believe makes you closed minded, most definitely not egalitarian, and, worst of all ,totally againt the tenants of diversity.Thirdly, how interesting it is that you leave out the rest of your quote concerning the Staute of Liberty. You know the one, the one where you say it's a "pity they missed it." I can only infer from this hate speech that you express open disappointment that there was not more loss of life in NYC.My dear, dear Nigel. That's the difference between us, mate. On THIS side of the pond, I may find what you say to be the most vile, outrageous venom known to man. BUT, I will defend to the death your right to say it. Oh yeah, I can own as many multi-shot rifles, shotguns and semi-automatic pistols as I want as well. Props to me.Your colonist cousin,The Ugly American

Isn't this fun ?
Firstly, maybe universal condemnation wasn't quite the correct thing to put, for which I unreservedly apologise. You will do well to drum up any support for your vile bigoted rant though. You did get a yellow card from the webmaster as well, which is good enough for me and I'm sure the vast majority on here. And we know how you hold majorities dear.....

Secondly, you have your views about the French, I have mine, we will agree to disagree. I still think you are an asshole for what you said.

Thirdly, do people actually live on the Statue of Liberty ? That to me would have been a far greater terrorist target than humans, and before you come back at me I, like, the vast majority of the civilised world, was appalled at the events of 11th September. The destruction of a symbol of a nation would have been a far greater value target than the senseless waste of human life that will ultimately bring the most powerful sanctions against Bin Laden. I'm entirely with the US on their reaction and methods of working, don't get me wrong. You have made something of a wrong inference I'm afraid.

Finally, if you want to own as many masturbatory playthings as you can, go for it ! I hope you get a real buzz from it.

If you were a cousin, I'd be looking for colonic irrigation, I can assure you.

"Thirdly, do people actually live on the Statue of Liberty ? That to me would have been a far greater terrorist target than humans, and before you come back at me I, like, the vast majority of the civilised world, was appalled at the events of 11th September. The destruction of a symbol of a nation would have been a far greater value target than the senseless waste of human life that will ultimately bring the most powerful sanctions against Bin Laden. I'm entirely with the US on their reaction and methods of working, don't get me wrong. You have made something of a wrong inference I'm afraid.

Finally, if you want to own as many masturbatory playthings as you can, go for it ! I hope you get a real buzz from it."

Nigel-

No, people do not live in the Statue Of Liberty. However, people DO work and visit the monument on a daily basis. I can unserstand why you think that the SOL would be a target of greater significance. But, the World Trade Center, to NYC specifically and the economic world in general, was much more significant . It is (was) seen as the most visible symbol of Western Capitalism, and I guess to the twisted mind of UBL, the beating heart of "the great Satan".

As far as "masturbatory playthings" are concerned, that's another of the differences between my country and yours. We feel so strongly about the RIGHT to keep and bear arms that it's listed second only behind freedom of speech in our Bill of Rights. Actually, it's amusing to listen to those in my country who want tighter and tighter restrictions on gun ownership. What they fail to understand is that it's precisely the provision for the Second Amendment that allows them to enjoy the First so fully.

Peace. Out.

The Ugly American

Originally posted by Michael McDermott As far as "masturbatory playthings" are concerned, that's another of the differences between my country and yours. We feel so strongly about the RIGHT to keep and bear arms that it's listed second only behind freedom of speech in our Bill of Rights. Actually, it's amusing to listen to those in my country who want tighter and tighter restrictions on gun ownership. What they fail to understand is that it's precisely the provision for the Second Amendment that allows them to enjoy the First so fully.

Michael, On this side of the pond, we dont share your views on hand guns, having been witness to tragedies such as Hungerford and Dunblane, your average British person is in favour of tight restrictions on hand guns. The ownership of handguns is all god and well, but the unfortunate thing is they often get into the hands of the wrong people.

As fo your comments over the 911 incident, its totally unfair of you to sugest that Tim has no concern over the ammount of people who died...

Liv

"You have had 1 warning already - and obviously you have taken no notice of this - do you want to be kicked off? Because quite frankly...you would not be missed "

Shugzv-

I wonder who else (based on the ridiculous profanity and personal attacks aimed at me - all violations of the Terms of Use & Community Standards, btw) got warnings?

As far as being "missed", I wouldn't presume to be so.

Late.

The Ugly American

"As fo your comments over the 911 incident, its totally unfair of you to sugest that Tim has no concern over the ammount of people who died... "

Liv-

I think the misuderstanding centered around Tim not realizing that people work in and visit the Statue Of Liberty every day. Therefore, when he said that it was a pity that it was missed by the terrorists, the only inference that I COULD make was the one I did.

It's interesting how someone's views can be taken so out of context when their point of reference is not known......

Gotta motor.

The Ugly American

Shug-

I know you didn't attack me personally. I was refering to some other folks who posted.

However, like I posted to Liv, it's interesting how things get twisted when you don't the other person's persprctive. I mean, when I came here and saw ALL the profanity that in the States would cause a fist fight, I never thought in a million years that the term "Frog" or "Frenchy" would cause such an uproar. And being a stubborn SOB, had to respond when pelted like I was.

Anyway, thank you for your forgiveness. I'm tired of this. Let's talk music.

I need to go hug my son. :)

M

I've read this thread from the beginning but didn't contribute....coz it's fun just to (watch).

It reminds me of episodes from Rikki Lake or Jerry Springer....