What is there in all this Joy Division? I'll tell you.

I think one of the things I really enjoy about Joy Division is that Ian Curtis brought the band "artistic discipline". I most often find myself listening to the music not for "doom and gloom" or something "Gothic", but for the pleasure of feeling someone driven by the integrity which has always produced great art.

Most artists seem driven by money or fame, or at least heavily influenced by it. They're pressured to release songs on a schedule, so as to satisfy journalists or safeguard their revenue stream. Or they worry that their new release is not in the Top Ten, so that consequently they're not "respected", and so they throw away their personal vision and make something that sounds like whatever's trendy.

Joy Division never subscribed to that. Perhaps they could only maintain their output for about a year-and-a-half (1979 to mid-1980), but for that time they set a very high standard. No release was crap, no B-side was a studio throw-away. And both albums have consistently great songs - if the song isn't great on the album, it's likely (if not certainly) great live.

Nothing Joy Division produced was for the money. Singles and albums did not appear in multiple versions with different covers, and singles were artistic statements separate from the albums themselves. (This is contrary to the regular practice of taking a song from an album and turning it into a single.)

And I don't think Ian Curtis was in it for any fame. His lyrics and stage antics were nothing "respectable people" would want to associate with, but he kept on with it all. In the Radio Blackburn interview he complains of journalists, "they like to get you boxed in, saying this group belongs to this category, and this group belongs to this category..." And then: "I don't think we belong to any category. ... We're four people who are playing the kind of music we want to play."

This is the reason Joy Division, twenty years after the loss of its lead singer and its subsequent breakup, still retains its artistic power and cult following. They knew music could well be something worth living and dying for, that music was not just some trivial pastime of boys in a garage or people who didn't take to regular jobs. (Bernard Sumner's claim that he didn't want a regular job may well be the reason New Order is not, in my assessment, timeless.)

Perhaps the most difficult thing that Joy Division faced, and still faces today, is a popular music scene obsessed with money and respect. To ignore such things, to view art as a completely different animal than making money or impressing the neighbors, to be willing to go to the extremes and sacrifice everything for the sake of one's vision - that is precisely the mark of greatness, and that's why, and how, Joy Division achieved immortality.

I hope I didn't become overly "high-minded". Sometimes one just gets in a mood...

Okay, one more... I feel like it's a "loose end"...

It's fundamentally none of my business the childhood of Ian Curtis. Perhaps he suffered some traumatic abuse, perhaps he was merely very sensitive to little things. But the fact is that he ultimately took his own life, and that's definitely worth a comment.

I certainly do not "encourage" anyone to commit suicide. I abhor violence committed in the name of virtually anything, including violence upon oneself, and in line with this I think that Ian Curtis' suicide was, in a sense, the exception to a life lived very differently.

Many people react to horrible events with anger or a thirst for revenge. But Ian was able to channel all his energy into something artistic, so as to ultimately leave us with something brilliant. There's a nobility in this, a decision to transform an atrocity into something profound, a decision to not let oneself be destroyed by life but instead to create something beautiful out of one's own tragedy.

This is something altogether honorable, even if in the end he felt that suicide was necessary. With the exception of his last act, I view Ian as setting an incredible example, one that is easily experienced by listening to the music.

I've read Martin Gray's posting on another thread, and I certainly don't want my comments here to be taken as insensitive to his situation, so I'll make some statement here in his regard. Mr. Gray will not likely read this, and he can feel free to ignore it if he does. (Since I don't know you personally, Mr. Gray, my comments could definitely be viewed as way out of line. I apologize in advance.)

You claim that people are chasing you around, but sometimes you have to realize that most people are fools. They have absolutely nothing in their own lives but the desire to exploit another's misfortune to their own advantage. These are fundamentally empty people, and I wouldn't view them as anything but parasites.

You've written that you've played in ten bands over the last five years, in part at least to "busy myself doing things that would take my mind off the shit that I normally have to put up with". You also wrote that you built up a "formidable [?] social circle of friends". Both of these actions are typically positive steps, but just as often you need to distance yourself from what you have known in order to see yourself more clearly.

You say you're thinking of seeking help, but that it would just mean "going through the same channels", and that "no amount of counselling [sic] or consultation with psychologists can ever 'cure' the problem. I have to go out there and seek to change my own little world myself, and if I can't do that then this torment will continue until I destroy little of what's left. And, as you can see, that's the most difficult part of it - getting that foot on the first rung as it were."

It sounds like you're really in a bad way, but you may be misdiagnosing your situation as simply relating to "weakness" or "lack of courage". (It's easy early on in things to completely misunderstand your own situation.) There are times in life, many of them, when you have to be like the Marines and just "suck up the pain", and there are also many times when that would be the stupidest response possible. Remember, the issues we deal with are often complex - and most people in the world are, unfortunately, not intelligent enough to understand this. I have a hunch you're not one of those people, and I think you'll not be deterred in the long run by platitudes and dumb simplicities, or the people who view them as reality.

In that final message (that I've read so far) you claim to want to escape to some isolated place. I don't think running away ever changes anything, nor does taking your own life, which it appears you may be thinking of, "solve" anything. Of course it's tempting at times, when the pain becomes too great, to just end it all. But the world, I think, will be a better place if you survive.

I'll make one last remark, on the subject of remarks itself - advice. Unasked-for advice is probably the most nauseating thing to ever receive. People believe they can snoop around your life, picking up clues, putting together a picture - and they think out of all this that they know exactly who you are and what you need to do. These are self-important asses, and their "advice" is nothing more than veiled put-downs. Such people are sometimes hard to ignore (even impossible), but that's precisely what they deserve. I'll hope you forgive me for, in this one moment, joining their ranks. I know that were our positions reversed, I would make such an effort.

Dear Morris Fan,

Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'not intelligent enough', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'self important asses', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm a man who recognises when someone is in pain and tries to offer a sympathetic word of encouragement, but then again, according to you, maybe i'm not. I suggest you THINK before letting loose with your longwinded diatribe in judgement of us who try to help our cyber friend Marty through his hard time. Maybe the knowledge that there are REAL PEOPLE WHO CARE in touch with each other on this forum will be all he needs to see him through. I hope so. Feel free to continue with your romantic notions about Ian Curtis now, honourable my arse!

Originally posted by Muffy Dear Morris Fan,Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'not intelligent enough', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm one of those you so eloquently refer to as 'self important asses', but maybe i'm not. Maybe i'm a man who recognises when someone is in pain and tries to offer a sympathetic word of encouragement, but then again, according to you, maybe i'm not.

If I meant to comment directly on Martin Gray's situation I would have posted it on the thread set aside for that purpose. It was only because my posts here seemed tangential to his circumstances that I felt obliged to mention his name and comment.

As I said at the outset, Mr. Gray is utterly entitled to ignore my message. I meant it only as "insurance", in case he does in fact read my musings on Ian Curtis and, in his dire state, take it in a way that is completely unintended.

You are reaching out to someone in their time of need. I think that is clear from your postings and I have only the utmost respect for that. Perhaps I focus excessively on the cruelty of the world - if cruelty is the norm, then you are a wonderful exception.

I apologize for any offense. None was intended.

MorrisFan

I've read all your postings here guys and all I can say is ....I'm incredibly touched by it all. I don't really know what I can say in return for fear of coming across as feeble. All I can say is that I never ever expected this amount of empathy (or whatever it is you call it, specific adjectives or words occasionally still fail me, despite the appearances to the contrary!) even to the point that you appear to be holding debate on the issue of trying to understand and ruminate on my perceived unhappiness and what advice or solutions you feel I could seek to help overcome this. I value your thoughts and words most wholeheartedly and should I feel a slight upsurge in my mood and frame of mind over the coming days then at least I can say that sharing my anxieties and troubled thoughts with a select few of you here via this outlet will have borne at least a positive and constructive outcome. Thanks guys - for sharing this with us.

Marty

You know, I myself have been accused of a 'dour' temperament, and I would hate for my postings here to merely reinforce and further that perception. But life has many threads, some of them dour and some of them promising, and here I've focused entirely on the former.

Sometimes the world gives you no voice, no opportunity to speak your mind, and then it sees you for something you're not. Perhaps the Internet is helpful when it serves as a forum, giving free rein to oneself and one's identity, until one's "real" life is able to catch up.

Morris Fan

My thoughts have turned of late to that final single, 'Ceremony' with 'In a Lonely Place'. This is the single that never was, the two songs that missed entering the canon due to the demise of Curtis. And I can only guess what else there was in those final rehearsal tapes.

We know Curtis took his own life, but in a deeper sense the simple fact is that the music ended, the curtains were drawn together, and it all occurred before its time. Would it make much difference if people had simply stopped attending Joy Division performances, or if Curtis had felt pressured to give up the art and get a 'regular job'?

But we have what we have and we have nothing more. In a brighter mood we can cherish what was accomplished, what was created amidst it all, but in another mood we can only look into the void and wonder what could have been, what may well have been. And we'll never know at all.

I'll tell you that I've looked out, in the cold air of the night, at the western evening sky, and who knows what I found there? Who knows what a man holds inside, and of what he is capable? And who's to know or care if the sun rises earlier than it should, bringing it all to an end. That moment is important to me, and if I'm alone in that - so be it.

It seems the task is to somehow reconcile all of this, to restore one's faith that humanity is not merely a band of well-organized idiots, each strutting on his appointed stage, each signifying absolutely nothing. And all I feel is this 'new emotion', possibly one of Curtis' "different feelings and sounds". It's the sight of a mighty building eroded by raindrops, the sight of a man cut down in his prime, at the peak of his powers shooing away flies, the sight ultimately of a worm eating its own tail.

You could possibly forgive me, if you could see me, for my appearance of shock and horror. Does society always, ultimately, turn against itself? How many days can one man tolerate before it sinks in that there is no room for the great and strong - they're always outnumbered by the weak. And that if one is to survive one must sometimes throw away what is good and best, and become shallow and common. I'll survive my horror - I'm certain of that -, but it will resonate, like a faint hum, as a reminder of what was and could have been.

I conclude that everything that lives must die eventually, that one cannot make of anything an exception, and that everything has its own arc in time, only to be swept away ruthlessly, like a castle at the beach, by the incoming tide.

I dunno what the fuck youre going on about...but A) Ceremony fucking Rules as A NO song - It wouldnt have been any better had Curtis Have sung it...and B) How about seeing the good things in LIfe, and lets face it..there are enough of them if you try hard enough.

Marty, I've got every sympathy with you - and I'm not going to try and comment because I've honestly never felt in a way that you are obviously feeling now. Keep your chin up mate.

Originally posted by Shug > Originally posted by Seb Briggs> I dunno what the fuck youre going on about...b] Maybe it's the beer and voddy Sebsy...then again

Probably a bit of both...but its true though...utter shite..

One of the interesting things about music is how it means different things to different people, but it's all the same music. I'm entitled to my own opinion and my own experience - and to start a thread from my own musings.

Perhaps my writings mean different things to different people as well, and if to some they mean nothing at all? Well they're just utter shite, I guess, or maybe they drink too much.

MorrisFan

are you on acidcaps, morris????If so, send me some

Wait........Morris Fan is none other than Paul Morley! Pompous windbag, quit promoting Frankie Goes To Hollywood

Nope - Morley had a sense of humour, at least. I think our friend with the thesaurus and the bloody awful prose poetry should read "Touching From A Distance" and get it through his thick, pompous skull that depression ain't romantic on any level: Curtis was, as far as I can tell, a troubled and often deeply unpleasant young man. But I think he was as "ordinary" as everyone else, and the music he helped create has helped thousands of us lumpen fucking proles get on with our shallow little lives. Most people aren't stupid and unfeeling, but live lives of quiet desparation without elevating themselves to Sixth-Form Poet Laureate. Try looking somewhere other than up yer own arse, pal.

Just my opinion, naturally.

M.

Well said, MF....

Morley has a sense of humor? Never picked up on that much, though I suppose he'd have a laugh at my confusion over reading his bits in Ideal for Living. If he had only stopped with the intro piece, I'd have been fine, but....:(

at least morris fan didn't start another list. i appreciate when someone has something to say about neworder/joydivision that's from their own perspective. it beats the hell out of embarrassing yourself over some girl you've never met. morris fan has an opinion that deserves to be heard and while his writing is a little academic for this board, there's no harm in writing complete sentences that don't involve football scores.

Trust me, I regret opening up the Pandora's box that is list-making, so all apologies on that. Nevertheless, It sure beats the hell out of someone using a genuine topic to personnally attack another poster (as I think Morris Fan did with Martian). That's where common courtesy comes in. It's one thing to jokingly tell someone to "fuck off" when in reality you love hearing from them. It's another to kick them in the balls when they have a personnal problem they feel like sharing. Also, going on for three or four messages in your own thread, with no inferrance from other parties, is kinda annoying. i make it a rule to avoid responding to my own posts until someone else appraises it. It's a good one to live by, especially if you wanna make friends on the internet. As for the slobering over April/Liv/all the girls I've loved before, blow it out your ass. I'm having funwith the whole thing, it injects some humor into the situation to seem desperat over some girl I've never met, and barring a miracle of money and ability to travel, will never meet. Humor is my tool to fight off the onsets of depression and gloom that occassionally envelope me. If that pisses anyone off that I take a whole day to suggest sending a packet of sugar to Barney or propose the idea of flying to Scotland to negotiate a peace settlement with Britain, so what? Where's the harm? Sometimes you run out of serious stuff to discuss, and when you do it's time to bring out the comedy. If that pisses you off, perhaps you're too uptight. I apologize if you find me annoying or boring, you're entitled to your opinion. What got me was Morris Fan's dissing of the efforts to cheer Marty up. If you can't open up to people with your problems, that's fucking terrible (look what it did to Ian. If only he'd been able to confide in someone). I guess if what you're saying is that cutting up has no place here, then I would want nothing to do with this site. Thanks to the regulars, this site is a bright light in what might be an otherwise dull existance for many people. If that's a problem for you, if you can't handle our silly attitudes, I apologize. We'll just go on and on about how moving Ian's sacrifice was, if that'll make you happy.....

tabsy, you and i see Morris' comments to marty differently. i don't think he was out of line at all, in fact, he put that last bit about marty in to address the similarities between his original point about Ian and Marty's recent outburst of emotion. it was a footnote so people didn't misinterpret his post. Morris Fan went on a bit too far but so what. if you make your private feelings public, you deserve what you get. i keep mine hidden.....

You're right, sometimes personnal stuff shouldn't be open for discussion (that's what e-mail is for) but it seemed that when Marty was reaching out for help, Fanny Boy just gave him a slap to the face. The whole romanticizing of Ian's death is misleading and sysmtematic of a general understanding of the mind of someone contemplaitng death. By making it a noble sacrifice instead of a personnal choice, Fanny was turning it into an alternative to living, which is almost criminal in its impilications. He should know better than to give Marty a noose when he's at his lowest.....

From looking at all the [increasingly incoherent] speculation and blanket theorising that is occurring on board this thread at the present moment, all I can deduce from it, guys, is that there are only two types of people in this world - those who genuinely possess the capacity to reach out and empathise/feel for others, and those who genuinely excel in being patronising, condescending, blood-sucking, leeching parasites without an iota of conscience. That's why the human race can often suck. Decide which of the two camps you consider yourself falling into. Make of that generalisation what you will.

Marty

I wrote these pieces to convey to those who are interested what the music of Joy Division means to me. I may be alone in my thoughts on the band and what they accomplished, but I believe that one of the purposes of a music website is to *discuss the music*.

The entire purpose of this thread was to talk about Joy Division. Many people get excited about the two different versions of the second New Order single, and that's fine - but I listen primarily to Joy Division, and so it's exciting for me to log on to neworderonline.com to be able to converse with others about the music.

I appreciate martin fradley's remarks about Ian Curtis, as this was entering the realm of the kind of commentary I was expecting. (However, mf, I think Ian Curtis was much more talented than people give him credit for. You can take away the depression, and there's still quite a bit left. Just my opinion, though.)

One main point in these posts, if you want to pull out a strand, is that Joy Division was far more than just some post-punk band, some "Goth" band, some late 70's band, etc. They're a band completely worthy of analysis, a band whose music stands up to - even demands - repeated listenings. There are entire books devoted to comparing different performances of a Bach Mass, and I think one aspect of what I've done here is try to bring the same level of rigor and intensity to a discussion of the band. I did not mean to "go on for three or four messages in my own thread" to wipe out discussion. I meant to set something of an example, to say: "Feel free to write a long post - I wrote one (or three), so I'll read yours."

The most important point that I feel forced to make here, unfortunately, is that I have nothing whatsoever against Martin Gray. Quite frankly, I know nothing at all about him, and as I do not tend to read his threads (he seems not to be a Joy Division fan, and that's the only reason for that), I don't think it's appropriate to inject myself into his personal affairs. If you truly believe that I have some axe to grind with Mr. Gray, read very carefully everything I have written. My tone is formal, but fundamentally I'm frustrated, and that's just me. It was only after I had written a piece on Ian Curtis' suicide that I worried it would be taken the wrong way by Mr. Gray - if I had written nothing, I would *also* have been accused of insensitivity! I only hope the posts here by *Mr. Gray himself* confirm my intentions.

Taboo #7: I actually read your message to Mr. Gray and found it very touching. If someone close to me were in his state, I would hope to be as open as you had been. Please do not view me as kicking Mr. Gray when he was down, because that was most certainly not my intention.

martin fradley: For your information, I never once opened a thesaurus or dictionary in writing these messages. I wrote them in the course of about 2-3 days, more or less spontaneously. The occasional contrast may be crude and unmeditated, but I feel fine leaving it as it is. As for my style, given more time I could do something much better, but this is the holiday season, and I'm busier than that.

I know not everyone gets into Joy Division as I do, but I see myself as bringing out important aspects of the band, not as romanticizing them. I don't view Ian Curtis as some kind of icon to whom we should all bow down and worship, and I don't see the band as necessarily "proving" anything about life. We all make our own choices and live our own lives - Joy Division is no "excuse" for anything. But there is much more in the Joy Division than there seems, and if no one says anything at all about that - well, we might just view them as four fools who ran around Britain with a few instruments. And they're not, and sometimes "the truth" needs a voice, or takes longer to reveal than we would like.

It's ironic that in starting a "serious" thread about the band the vast majority of the posts here have nothing to do with the band at all. I hope, at least, that all the confusion that has been started will - with this message and perhaps short replies - be resolved.

Enough is enough!

Morris Fan

Are you Jean-Pierre whatsit ?

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen Are you Jean-Pierre whatsit ?

Turmel? No, and for the record, I think *that* essay is "utter shite". ;)

Originally posted by Morris Fan The most important point that I feel forced to make here, unfortunately, is that I have nothing whatsoever against Martin Gray. Quite frankly, I know nothing at all about him, and as I do not tend to read his threads (he seems not to be a Joy Division fan, and that's the only reason for that), I don't think it's appropriate to inject myself into his personal affairs. If you truly believe that I have some axe to grind with Mr. Gray, read very carefully everything I have written. My tone is formal, but fundamentally I'm frustrated, and that's just me. It was only after I had written a piece on Ian Curtis' suicide that I worried it would be taken the wrong way by Mr. Gray - if I had written nothing, I would *also* have been accused of insensitivity! I only hope the posts here by *Mr. Gray himself* confirm my intentions.

The point in all this is Mr Morris Fan, your *discussion of music* resulted in two of our regulars deciding to bugger off! You annoyed Muffy and he left (thankfully with some persuasion from the minx he returned!), and Martin is still intend on not coming back, no matter how much i try to talk him into it.

As for off topic posts, that is one of the things that has made this board so sucessful. Yes we are NO fans but we are also human beings, who like to chat to each other. Where would be be without the pringles/badger racing threads of the past?

And can i just point out to you that this is infact NEW ORDER ONLINE therefore discussing Joy Division is technically off topic....

Oh and by the way... Happy New Year...

Liv