What is there in all this Joy Division? I'll tell you.

To react negatively when it comes to a small part of the messages, speculations, is hopefully not the same as insulting someone...

I have been avoiding many of the topics these days because of the severe increase in personal, off topic messages. I don't think they are always bad but i was hoping the Instant Messenger would divert some of the chat to a suitable chat resource like the Instant Messeging system liv was promoting. the solution may be as simple as putting OT on the title of the topic if it's created for off topic commentary like the Monty Python thread. I think the topic starter can change the name of the thread when discussion veers into foreign territory. It would be useful if the name of the thread had something to do with the content within (of course, i prefer neworder to not name their songs after lyrics within but...) With so many personalities in one place, it's natural for a few to bump into each other now and then. Viva New Order!!!

Just write what you think, you don't have to drink.

Cheers!

but the word doesn't necessarily say that you drink - it's just out of politeness, make a good atmosphere when you communicate with someone on the net that you don't know at all, (I think).

what's the smile code for that?

In response to the comments posted by Seb

So this is THE reason they left?Bollocks!

At the time this thread took hold, both Muffy and Marty left the board. It is not "bollocks",its a fact. And my comments were grounded. Both were upset by the way things had turned out here, and both felt that they should leave.

Liv but I don't think you are entitled to slag Morris Fan because he posted something on Joy Division since MOST of your messages are usually OFF TOPIC

I actually didnt slag MF for posting anything about JD, my last comment about this being a NO board was "tongue in cheek", perhaps my sense of humour is lost somewhere across the Atlantic. As for most of my comments being off topic... yes, you are right, there is no denying it. If, however, I have offended people by my posts, then I am sorry. I do post on all topics here, some on topic, some off topic, depending on what i feel is relevent to say. I am more than willing to remain as an on topic only poster if that is what people want. The last thing I would want to do is offend anyone.

My problems with what were said on this thread were totally nothing to do with MF's comments on JD, but on the discussion of Marty and those people who helped him. (in fact as an English teacher, his essay on JD should be comended) More than anything it was to do with the fact that this thread had upset two people who i consider to be my mates. If you read back to what i said, I never made any comment on MF's JD discussion.

It's strange that I am now in the camp against those who I usually like and friendly with, but I think your reaction is totally UNFAIR, UNJUST, UNCALLED FOR, and simply over the top.

In fact Seb, my reaction was not as dramatic as you appear to think it was. I simply pointed my impression of how this board works, and how off topic messages are part of what NOO forum is about. If you don't like the way the board has become, then perhaps you should introduce a extra forum for off topic posts. I visit another website for another band and their forum has over 20 actual boards, including one called "Open Discussion Forum" which can cover any topic you like. It stops any agro and allows people to post messages to the friends they have made.

In fact, I think your reaction to my post was uncalled for, unjust and unfair, and without a doubt over the top especially as my post was not a personal attack on MF's comments.

This board has become a real haven for NO fans the world over and you should be proud of that, its the best NO website there is, without doubt. I have made some great mates here, and I hope to goodness things here can get back to normal. I enjoy coming here, and believe it or not, being able to post here in the past few weeks with my own personal problems has been a great relief, has given me something to take my mind off the issues I am dealing with.

Seb, I dont want to take sides, or be involved in any camps (Jesus its like Lord of the Flies here?!?!) but I feel that I had to say this. I hope I havent stirred anything up again, and that we can finally lay this discussion to rest.

Liv

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert I thought this was A LOT MORE interesting than the constant messages I read on this board that are usually one-liners about something futile. I think the message board would be better if half of the messages were in the same trend as those by Morris Fan.

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen There is a very fine line, though, between intelligent and pertinent comment and pretentious and sycophantic diatribe, and it has to be said that on occasion our colleague Morris Fan has tended to drift/shift/jump towards the latter. There is nothing wrong with attempting some analysis on the work of either Joy Division or New Order per se, but the writer always runs the risk of descending into quasi-intellectual "I know lots of big words and can use them" territory.

I really appreciate Seb's views here, but I also do not wholly disagree with Nigel's. Much of my writing was getting several issues off my chest, issues of my own that I saw very much paralleled in the Joy Division chronology and experience. My writing was an attempt to convey that perspective, which means that I spent a great deal of effort on *how I felt* and not so much at all on (for example) quoting sources, mentioning specific dates, or observing the conventional opening paragraph/body text/closing paragraph format. On one level these writings are metaphors. [velocity girl posted elsewhere about this - I'm agreeing in large part with her comments.]

But I also think that the points I make about Joy Division are quite legitimate - irrespective of me. And several people here - martin fradley and Frode Nordmarken come to mind - made one or several efforts to talk about the issues I brought up. That's what I was expecting.

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen For those who don't know what he [Mark Johnson] said, it was "speculation is not only futile but also an invasion of privacy".

This was NOT the kind of commentary I was expecting. I appreciate someone taking the time to quote from a book about Joy Division, but if you've read a book, you're in a better place than most (perhaps) to seriously discuss the band, which was this thread's main purpose.

Originally posted by Liv And can i just point out to you that this is infact NEW ORDER ONLINE therefore discussing Joy Division is technically off topic....

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert This website is as much about Joy Division as it is about New Order! Should we buy www.joydivisiononline.com as well to prove it?

Vindication!

On the topic of "off-topic postings", my main view is this: I don't mind one or two offhand comments, but I think a thread is there in the main for the thread's title, and I try to stick to that. I'll confess that I started one non-NO/JD thread (my "How are you spending New Year's?") but at least the content of the thread matched the title!

Originally posted by Nigel Spleen The problem with the posting at the top of the thread, and the subsequent reactions from a number of the "football hooligans" who post on here, is that it could be construed as being deeply offensive to one of our number who had openly admitted to looking deeper into himself for answers than some may dare venture.

Originally posted by Liv My problems with what were said on this thread were totally nothing to do with MF's comments on JD, but on the discussion of Marty and those people who helped him. (in fact as an English teacher, his essay on JD should be comended) More than anything it was to do with the fact that this thread had upset two people who i consider to be my mates. If you read back to what i said, I never made any comment on MF's JD discussion.

Originally posted by Sebastien Boisvert Morris Fan only wanted to do well -- he didn't have any bad intentions, IT IS SO OBVIOUS!

Exactly! I started this thread on the topic of Joy Division (read the title of the thread). My first two 'essays' were entirely on the subject of JD/Ian Curtis, and only the third delved into Martin Gray's situation. When voices emerged claiming that I was attacking those who were supporting Mr. Gray, I immediately asserted otherwise. When these posts kept appearing, I was willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt: if you were seriously offended, here's a pretty darn good apology. There's nowhere further to go with this!

As far as this thread is concerned, I have no further thoughts (read: essays) on Joy Division in the offing, and I imagine I'll be too busy to write one anyway. However, for that handful of people that enjoyed even a moment of it - cheers.

Morris Fan

Originally posted by Morris Fan

You claim that people are chasing you around, but sometimes you have to realize that most people are fools. They have absolutely nothing in their own lives but the desire to exploit another's misfortune to their own advantage. These are fundamentally empty people, and I wouldn't view them as anything but parasites.

It sounds like you're really in a bad way, but you may be misdiagnosing your situation as simply relating to "weakness" or "lack of courage". (It's easy early on in things to completely misunderstand your own situation.) There are times in life, many of them, when you have to be like the Marines and just "suck up the pain", and there are also many times when that would be the stupidest response possible. Remember, the issues we deal with are often complex - and most people in the world are, unfortunately, not intelligent enough to understand this. I have a hunch you're not one of those people, and I think you'll not be deterred in the long run by platitudes and dumb simplicities, or the people who view them as reality.

I'll make one last remark, on the subject of remarks itself - advice. Unasked-for advice is probably the most nauseating thing to ever receive. People believe they can snoop around your life, picking up clues, putting together a picture - and they think out of all this that they know exactly who you are and what you need to do. These are self-important asses, and their "advice" is nothing more than veiled put-downs. Such people are sometimes hard to ignore (even impossible), but that's precisely what they deserve. I'll hope you forgive me for, in this one moment, joining their ranks. I know that were our positions reversed, I would make such an effort.

Seb, maybe you had to have taken part in the thread where Marty first made his feelings public in order to percieve some sort of put down in these remarks quoted above, however I do not believe that to be the case. I do think you would have had to have read that thread to realise who the comments were aimed at. If MF says they were not aimed at anyone I think that is because he does'nt have the guts to stand by his own convictions. Even if they were not aimed at anyone specifically the comments were still ill advised to say the least.

From my own point of view this topic was dead long ago but people keep bringing it back with their own tuppence worth of comment. The percieved digs from Morris fan did contribute to me quitting this site at the time but I quickly realised I was being a hypersensitive baby and came back. He was'nt the only factor, I too get the occassional e-mail from visitors to this site, not all of them friendly fire.

If any of my comments or the tone I made them in offended you i'm sorry. I was only trying to get my point across as clearly as possible. I do agree with you that some of the comments made by others on this thread were needless and unconstructive but I don't think any real malice was intended, at least I hope not.

Anyway, it's long overdue that this nonsense was put to bed and forgotten about. I bear no ill will towards MF whatsoever, i'm not that type of person. Maybe we can all join together in a group hug and move on. I hope so.

I think I can embarassedly stand up and say I was one of those who made unconstructive comments, and would like to apologise if I added fuel to the flames early doors. I read the comments as insensitive and vaguely offensive initially and if they weren't the case then fair enough. I was wrecked at the time as well which didnt help.

this thread has obviously well outstayed its welcome but fuck it, I wanted to have another say

Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ? :)

Nigel sez:

"Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ?"

That's pretty funny stuff, Nigel. You should take that material on the road. "Nigel will be here all week, folks. Always a different show. Be sure to tip your bartenders and waittresses."

Let's revisit some of your more choice comments (attacks) toward me and my country.

"You, Mr McDermott, have sadly displayed many of the traits of an asshole in this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone in requesting this thread be closed and the subject closed. "

.....and who can forget this one......

"God bless the Statue of Bigotry. Pity they missed it really."

Nice, Nigel. Nice............. diversity......."each to their own..." :dotdotdot:

Well this is the first time I've entered this threadbare and 'cor blimey what the holy moly just went on in here then? ... is it like a proper scrap or what? ... still can't believe old Sebsy Boisy Feet's still banging on about people who go off-topic when he does it himself a billion times a day, not wanting to mention Canadian sports or anything. And just which faceless toe-rags are e-mailing you instead of voicing their opinions? ... do they have a name or should we refer to them as just 'a cat'.

Seems to me like a few people have got hot under the collar bone over several issues crossing many and various threadbares, conflicting between people's opinions.

Whoever wrote 'not intellectual enough' wants a fucking boot up the bastard arse. The mere notion of this infers you are a tosser of legendary proportions and I can understand how the magical MuffMan has taken exception to this. Surely this place isn't where fellow comrades shout such unnecessary dribble at one another is it? ... I mean, not intellectual enough ... ha! ... 'tis made me chuckle and laugh out loud. Whoever said that wants to take a Mensa test and post the results so we can all have a good laugh. I mean, for fuck's sake ... you can't judge a cat by its whiskers can you? ... how can you derive who's the more intelligent in this crazy place!!!?

Let's live and let live kids, we could all be dead tomorrow and this thread is like an ugly scene from the 80's banned horror 'Last House on the Left'.

(actually no its worse)

... sorry to go on but Sebsy saying that this place isn't a chat room, instead a discussion group? erm, we chat in a discussion group don't we? and we discuss in a chat room?

What a mess.

People cannot refer directly to New Order or JD all of the time. Barney, for instance, has two eyes and a beak. If we mention either of these is this off-topic? ... I mean, it relates to Barney, who plays in the band.

Far too critical.

Originally posted by Michael McDermott Nigel sez:"Fucked if I'm apologising to anyone. We welcome diversity on this message forum, as identified above, and I happen to have a different opinion to Morris Fan. Each to their own though, eh ?" That's pretty funny stuff, Nigel. You should take that material on the road. "Nigel will be here all week, folks. Always a different show. Be sure to tip your bartenders and waittresses."Let's revisit some of your more choice comments (attacks) toward me and my country."You, Mr McDermott, have sadly displayed many of the traits of an asshole in this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone in requesting this thread be closed and the subject closed. ".....and who can forget this one......"God bless the Statue of Bigotry. Pity they missed it really."Nice, Nigel. Nice............. diversity......."each to their own..." :dotdotdot:

(Adopts H.Blofeld voice) My dear old thing......you seem to be missing the point. My comment about diversity was a direct recognition of the webmaster's sponsorship of diversity in an earlier post on this thread. My reference to you as "an asshole" on your vile and uncalled for thread about the French, which quite rightly received universal comdemnation, is a completely separate matter. I stand by my comment in its entirety. As was pointed out to you, you were well out of order in that thread. My having French blood is obviously irrelevant to your mongrel outlook.

Oh, and for the record, you may find that my reference to the "Statue of Bigotry" was in fact a Lou Reed quote, you know the one, that "bisexual Jew junkie" American whose songs you may even have heard. Check his "New York" record.

Have a nice day !

Dearest Nigel sez:

"(Adopts H.Blofeld voice) My dear old thing......you seem to be missing the point. My comment about diversity was a direct recognition of the webmaster's sponsorship of diversity in an earlier post on this thread. My reference to you as "an asshole" on your vile and uncalled for thread about the French, which quite rightly received universal comdemnation, is a completely separate matter. I stand by my comment in its entirety. As was pointed out to you, you were well out of order in that thread. My having French blood is obviously irrelevant to your mongrel outlook. Oh, and for the record, you may find that my reference to the "Statue of Bigotry" was in fact a Lou Reed quote, you know the one, that "bisexual Jew junkie" American whose songs you may even have heard. Check his "New York" record. Have a nice day ! "

If you'll take your seat, I' ll break it down so that you, dearest Nigel, can understand.

Firstly, I was NOT universally condemed. You may wish to reread the threads. A better job of fact checking is called for on your part.

Secondly, you finding me an "asshole" for views in which I strongly believe makes you closed minded, most definitely not egalitarian, and, worst of all ,totally againt the tenants of diversity.

Thirdly, how interesting it is that you leave out the rest of your quote concerning the Staute of Liberty. You know the one, the one where you say it's a "pity they missed it." I can only infer from this hate speech that you express open disappointment that there was not more loss of life in NYC.

My dear, dear Nigel. That's the difference between us, mate. On THIS side of the pond, I may find what you say to be the most vile, outrageous venom known to man. BUT, I will defend to the death your right to say it. Oh yeah, I can own as many multi-shot rifles, shotguns and semi-automatic pistols as I want as well. Props to me.

Your colonist cousin,

The Ugly American

Just seen this thread now...

Won't be long cos it can go on forever.

I too find myself annoyed with the amount of off-topics threads sometimes.

But is it really off-topic ? I mean, we're here as NO-fans and, even when we don't talking about NO, it's the point of view of NO fans.

Now, I guess, as it has already been said it's all a matter of balance.

No NO in topics anymore would really be annoying. But only NO things would be too.

Well, I should stop now about all this but I had thought about this thing for quite some time, even thinking of creating a thread about the "off-topic" subject. So I thought this one was a good place to say this...

Take care everyone...

Originally posted by Michael McDermott If you'll take your seat, I' ll break it down so that you, dearest Nigel, can understand.Firstly, I was NOT universally condemed. You may wish to reread the threads. A better job of fact checking is called for on your part.Secondly, you finding me an "asshole" for views in which I strongly believe makes you closed minded, most definitely not egalitarian, and, worst of all ,totally againt the tenants of diversity.Thirdly, how interesting it is that you leave out the rest of your quote concerning the Staute of Liberty. You know the one, the one where you say it's a "pity they missed it." I can only infer from this hate speech that you express open disappointment that there was not more loss of life in NYC.My dear, dear Nigel. That's the difference between us, mate. On THIS side of the pond, I may find what you say to be the most vile, outrageous venom known to man. BUT, I will defend to the death your right to say it. Oh yeah, I can own as many multi-shot rifles, shotguns and semi-automatic pistols as I want as well. Props to me.Your colonist cousin,The Ugly American

Isn't this fun ?
Firstly, maybe universal condemnation wasn't quite the correct thing to put, for which I unreservedly apologise. You will do well to drum up any support for your vile bigoted rant though. You did get a yellow card from the webmaster as well, which is good enough for me and I'm sure the vast majority on here. And we know how you hold majorities dear.....

Secondly, you have your views about the French, I have mine, we will agree to disagree. I still think you are an asshole for what you said.

Thirdly, do people actually live on the Statue of Liberty ? That to me would have been a far greater terrorist target than humans, and before you come back at me I, like, the vast majority of the civilised world, was appalled at the events of 11th September. The destruction of a symbol of a nation would have been a far greater value target than the senseless waste of human life that will ultimately bring the most powerful sanctions against Bin Laden. I'm entirely with the US on their reaction and methods of working, don't get me wrong. You have made something of a wrong inference I'm afraid.

Finally, if you want to own as many masturbatory playthings as you can, go for it ! I hope you get a real buzz from it.

If you were a cousin, I'd be looking for colonic irrigation, I can assure you.

"Thirdly, do people actually live on the Statue of Liberty ? That to me would have been a far greater terrorist target than humans, and before you come back at me I, like, the vast majority of the civilised world, was appalled at the events of 11th September. The destruction of a symbol of a nation would have been a far greater value target than the senseless waste of human life that will ultimately bring the most powerful sanctions against Bin Laden. I'm entirely with the US on their reaction and methods of working, don't get me wrong. You have made something of a wrong inference I'm afraid.

Finally, if you want to own as many masturbatory playthings as you can, go for it ! I hope you get a real buzz from it."

Nigel-

No, people do not live in the Statue Of Liberty. However, people DO work and visit the monument on a daily basis. I can unserstand why you think that the SOL would be a target of greater significance. But, the World Trade Center, to NYC specifically and the economic world in general, was much more significant . It is (was) seen as the most visible symbol of Western Capitalism, and I guess to the twisted mind of UBL, the beating heart of "the great Satan".

As far as "masturbatory playthings" are concerned, that's another of the differences between my country and yours. We feel so strongly about the RIGHT to keep and bear arms that it's listed second only behind freedom of speech in our Bill of Rights. Actually, it's amusing to listen to those in my country who want tighter and tighter restrictions on gun ownership. What they fail to understand is that it's precisely the provision for the Second Amendment that allows them to enjoy the First so fully.

Peace. Out.

The Ugly American

Originally posted by Michael McDermott As far as "masturbatory playthings" are concerned, that's another of the differences between my country and yours. We feel so strongly about the RIGHT to keep and bear arms that it's listed second only behind freedom of speech in our Bill of Rights. Actually, it's amusing to listen to those in my country who want tighter and tighter restrictions on gun ownership. What they fail to understand is that it's precisely the provision for the Second Amendment that allows them to enjoy the First so fully.

Michael, On this side of the pond, we dont share your views on hand guns, having been witness to tragedies such as Hungerford and Dunblane, your average British person is in favour of tight restrictions on hand guns. The ownership of handguns is all god and well, but the unfortunate thing is they often get into the hands of the wrong people.

As fo your comments over the 911 incident, its totally unfair of you to sugest that Tim has no concern over the ammount of people who died...

Liv

"You have had 1 warning already - and obviously you have taken no notice of this - do you want to be kicked off? Because quite frankly...you would not be missed "

Shugzv-

I wonder who else (based on the ridiculous profanity and personal attacks aimed at me - all violations of the Terms of Use & Community Standards, btw) got warnings?

As far as being "missed", I wouldn't presume to be so.

Late.

The Ugly American

"As fo your comments over the 911 incident, its totally unfair of you to sugest that Tim has no concern over the ammount of people who died... "

Liv-

I think the misuderstanding centered around Tim not realizing that people work in and visit the Statue Of Liberty every day. Therefore, when he said that it was a pity that it was missed by the terrorists, the only inference that I COULD make was the one I did.

It's interesting how someone's views can be taken so out of context when their point of reference is not known......

Gotta motor.

The Ugly American