Hmm, don't you think Johnny Marr should have replaced that Chris guy?

Isamu, I got your full reply on the message from the subscribed thread via E Mail, but it doesn't appear to be complete here because you messed with the code. Nothing too weird, happened to me as well, but please edit your message and check that all the tags are open and closed. Apparently messing with code can (though not always) cause also a big slow down of the server, so the sooner we fix our errors, the better. You wrote this:

WHAT THE????? Can you expound on what you mean by he sacked Moz?

Right, it's well known The Smiths ended because the other three had enough of Morrissey. Rourke and Joyce were tired of him but didn't actually think at really sacking him, Johnny did it. Morrissey was devastated, The Smiths were all his life, he hadn't a true social life like the others, apparently The Smiths was all he did out of his home... Rourke and Joyce accepted and planned with Marr (who had written all the music, though Moz wrote all the lyrics) to carry on with another singer. They tried with some, the most likely to get the job was Roddy Frame from Aztec Camera. If there are recordings around from these rehearsals it would be very interesting to hear them, but maybe they're just very well hidden in Johnny's basement. At the end the remaining Smiths weren't convinced at all to carry on without Moz with a new singer, and it's quite understandable and it was actually silly they even tried. Marr was interested in his new project with Bernard Sumner, Sell Your Body (which would eventually become Electronic), he didn't need Rourke and Joyce anymore, so The Smiths finally split while Moz was about to launch a successful solo career. At this point (somewhere between Substance and Technique, but can't remember exactly) the press briefly even talked about a New Order split, maybe just as if since Johnny came from a split band, so should have Bernard...

Buffer Low wrote:

Turn Jim wrote:

I think Phil has earned his stripes! And I welcome him as a Godlike Geneus.

Yeah, i think he is doing an ok job.

i like Chris Better

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

At the end the remaining Smiths weren't convinced at all to carry on without Moz with a new singer, and it's quite understandable and it was actually silly they even tried. Marr was interested in his new project with Bernard Sumner, Sell Your Body (which would eventually become Electronic), he didn't need Rourke and Joyce anymore, so The Smiths finally split while Moz was about to launch a successful solo career.

Hehehe, that's quite a funny theory. Except... did you know that Rourke and Joyce actually carried on with Morrissey? Rourke has been co-writing and playing with him for quite a while after Marr left the band -- he plays the bass on "November spawned a monster" and co-wrote "Yes I'm blind", for instance. The first Morrissey solo show was played with Rourke, Joyce and Craig Gannon. I'll be happy to expand on this topic :P

In case your post was meant to be funny, I'm sorry to have completely missed the humour innit.

IMO Hooky is still angry on Johnny Marr because Bernard chose for Marr in 1990. Hooky called his band Revenge not for nothing. Marr and Hooky will never become friends and can never play in the same band.

I thought about that too but as I recall when Twisted Tenderness came out Marr was already talking about his upcoming shite band The Healers and I guess he still has yet to get that demon out of his system.

symphonie wrote: okay... do you mean PHil? and yes Marr would've been verrry interesting, but i don't think he's a musician for hire type, he might've influenced the album - positively i'd think.

Marr may not seem like a "musician for hire type," but after the Smiths broke up, he was a member of and/or played with every band going at the time.

He was a "full member" of The Pretenders (for about 15 minutes), Electronic, and The The and has played with Talking Heads (Naked), Pet Shop Boys (Release), Neil Finn, Bryan Ferry, Kirsty MacColl, Billy Bragg, et al.

Not only is he fantastically talented...he's everywhere.

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Ronald Kirsch wrote:

he's always been with the same girl since 13 years old... (though he sacked Moz from The Smiths, so you can never say)

What the? Can you expand on what you mean by "he sacked Moz..."

Ray wrote: Hehehe, that's quite a funny theory. Except... did you know that Rourke and Joyce actually carried on with Morrissey? Rourke has been co-writing and playing with him for quite a while after Marr left the band -- he plays the bass on "November spawned a monster" and co-wrote "Yes I'm blind", for instance. The first Morrissey solo show was played with Rourke, Joyce and Craig Gannon. I'll be happy to expand on this topic :P In case your post was meant to be funny, I'm sorry to have completely missed the humour innit.

*Oh no, it wasn't meant to be funny at all, that's what I remember reading over the years, though I have to apologise because I forgot to say the most of the things I reported were read on the Italian press at the time, so: a) it's 18 years ago b) the Italian press writes a lot of bollocks What you say about Strangeways (the last album) is roughly true because I remember reading that relationships within the band had already deteriorated a lot at the time of the recording and Marr didn't play on some of the sessions. Morrissey, though still devastated after being sacked, could foresee the split and based quite some of the lyrics on the band falling apart, like I Started Something I Couldn't Finish and Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before (which referred also to the press). Anyway the proper sacking happened after the recordings and Rourke and Joyce recently confirmed this in an interview to Uncut. Also I read on an official Italian biography (which I suppose it's rather reliable) about The Smiths with Roddy Frame and this also confirms that Rourke and Joyce, after finishing the recordings, initially chose the Marr side. What probably happened is that when that attempt of carrying on without Morrissey, then Marr defintely split the band and Rourke and Joyce found themselves with nothing to do, so they quickly put aside their differences with Moz and worked with him (and indeed I remember reading of that and being surprised). So, putting things in perspective, the most likely truth is that we both remember correct facts happening at different times. The only difference might have been that Marr had temporarily left the band (or better, the recording sessions) before returning and bringing Rourke and Joyce to his side to sack Moz, but for example the fact Rourke and Joyce finished the sessions doesn't mean it's not true they then tried to carry on with Marr and Frame (before the band's final split and their collaboration with Morrissey)... these events took months to happen and things can change from week to week...

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Right, it's well known The Smiths ended because the other three had enough of Morrissey. Rourke and Joyce were tired of him but didn't actually think at really sacking him, Johnny did it. Morrissey was devastated, The Smiths were all his life, he hadn't a true social life like the others, apparently The Smiths was all he did out of his home... Rourke and Joyce accepted and planned with Marr (who had written all the music, though Moz wrote all the lyrics) to carry on with another singer.

Wow...didn't really know the entire story of the Smith's breakup...I had no idea that they tried to work without Moz.

This must have been the worst and most regrettable decision in Joyce's and Rourke's life. What a bunch of assholes to try to work without one of the greatest frontmen in the history of British music.

This makes me love Morrissey even more...the guy is a genius.

actually noone sacked morrissey. Johnny marr quit after strange ways and thus ended the band. Marr had become tired of morrissey's covert firing of managers and even band members and wanted a bit less drama. During the recording of strange ways i think it was known that marr was leaving but i forget exactly what i had read. but noone sacked morrssey in fact it wouldn;t really have been possible to sack morrissey considering from fairly early on he took firm control of the smiths and was the one who did the firing.

Rourke and Joyce's decision would have been hard anyway. There wasn't a right choice, how can you have The Smiths without Morrissey's voice and lyrics or without Marr's guitar and music. Impossible. They probably chose Marr for two reasons: a) they couldn't stand Morrissey's temper b) they were musicians and felt the music was more essential to the band But there wasn't a way out, the only solution was the split, and this made no good either, so they're just victims of what happened, and would have been anyway. I know Aziz recently supported The Durutti Column... I didn't even know they were still around, it's like five years Aziz exist and nobody seems to have noticed apart from a news article on the NME when they formed. I wonder if Rourke and Joyce are still part of the band... Anyway, instead of following a late Stone Roses has-been who names bands after his own name (a bit like Revenge being named "Peter"), they should have found a new talented singer to start their own new band a while ago, let's say a bit like what Hooky did with Monaco... if they found their own Pottsy they could have enjoyed some success... in fact, they just let the years go by, that has been their biggest mistake, not The Smiths'split, but what they did (not) since then...

Rabbitracer, I think what you tell is the short story. True, Marr left The Smiths, thus splitting it, but what we're talking about is what happened between Strangeways and when he split the band. It wasn't from Monday to Tuesday. I know the idea of sacking Moz makes no sense, and Rourke and Joyce today admit it. I'm not making up anything, that's what I read, though I wasn't there so I can't say what's 100% true and what might have been reported incorrectly... still, I don't think Roddy Frame's name was made from nothing... if it's all invented, they might as well have said "Boy George" ;)

Update: Rourke and Joyce still work with Aziz, though finally he now correctly presents himself as a solo artist with guest musicians on the album and a live band for gigs. Anyway one track was co-written with them. Just checked his site (it's all in the Biography)

I highly suspected I couldn't trust the fookin Italian press. I found this article on Roddy Frame and apparently it was the other way round: when Marr left the band The Smiths tried to carry on with him, though this article just says he refused the offer, so we don't know whether those legendary sessions really took place and frankly I just don't know what to think anymore. The really weird thing is that recently I had read that Rourke and Joyce said they agreed with Marr about getting rid of Morrissey but also remember feeling sorry for him, so it looks like what happened is

1. Rourke and Joyce couldn't stand Moz
2. Marr neither, but after all he decided to quit the band rather than getting rid of Moz (so it's not true he sacked him, maybe he thought about it, but just quit in fact)
3. Rourke and Joyce, though not being best friends with Morrissey, decide to give him a chance with his try at The Smiths 2 with Frame
4. The Smiths 2 don't happen (rehearsals having taken place or not) Who knows how the Italian press made up the opposite theory, maybe they weren't careful enough when reading English press and confused names... It's really interesting to discover the true story, thanks to your doubts, after having believed the opposite for years... Whatever, my humble apologies, I won't ever report what they say again, didn't trust them before, you can guess how I trust them now! ;) So, back to the original topic, Marr never actually sacked Moz, so that's not a good reason to say he can't be trusted or he's not loyal to his band mates.

What? You ain't laughing at me yet?!

Um.

:)

What I read was that Marr was (as rabbitracer says) tired with changing managers and having to cope with all the non-musical stuff and he decided to leave because of that. It had nothing to do with Morrissey apart from the fact Morrissey was pretty impossible to satisfy as far as it came to managing him and that's why Marr and Moz took the duties themselves. Rourke's reaction to Marr's announcement was total surprise and shock -- he actually said "let's make one more album!" which Marr later described as the worst possible reaction.

Some quotes: "Johnny Marr remembers a feeling of enormous relief the day he bailed out of The Smiths. In that case he was in a minority of one. Andy Rourke felt 'a big fucking void, it was like the rug being pulled from under your feet'. Morrissey has never forgiven his old bandmate."

"Tme remaining Smiths regrouped with Stephen Street and replacement guitarist Ivor Perry but disbanded after just two days. In September, Morrissey finally condeded that the band was finished and immediately commenced work on his solo debut, Viva Hate"

"Over the years, Marr has suggested that a timely breathing space or a Morrissey-approved manager might have stayed his hand. Other times he has said that nothing could have changed his mind."

"It was almost as if The Smiths hadn't split up at all. Indeed, they almost hadn't. Initial sessions with Stephen Street for Morrissey's debut album, Viva Hate, included two familiar faces -- Mike Joyve and Andy Rourke -- but feeling the absence of Johnny Marr too heavily, the idea of The Smiths Mark II was quickly shelved."

"In the face of very persuasive evidence, Morrissey was doing his best to pretend that the group had not split up at all. He told the press that, 'whoever says The Smiths have split shall be severely spanked by me with a wet plimsoll' and then briefly attempted to carry on with a new guitarist Ivor Perry (as if no one would notice!). [...] Rumours abounded that Johnny Marr [...] was about to reunite with Rourke and Joyce for a new band [...]"

Nothing against Chris/Phil, but I would love to see Gillian return to the lineup at some point (however unlikely that may be.)

Mick Aneworderfan wrote: Isamu, I got your full reply on the message from the subscribed thread via E Mail, but it doesn't appear to be complete here because you messed with the code. Nothing too weird, happened to me as well, but please edit your message and check that all the tags are open and closed. Apparently messing with code can (though not always) cause also a big slow down of the server, so the sooner we fix our errors, the better. You wrote this:

WHAT THE????? Can you expound on what you mean by he sacked Moz?

Right, it's well known The Smiths ended because the other three had enough of Morrissey. Rourke and Joyce were tired of him but didn't actually think at really sacking him, Johnny did it. Morrissey was devastated, The Smiths were all his life, he hadn't a true social life like the others, apparently The Smiths was all he did out of his home... Rourke and Joyce accepted and planned with Marr (who had written all the music, though Moz wrote all the lyrics) to carry on with another singer. They tried with some, the most likely to get the job was Roddy Frame from Aztec Camera. If there are recordings around from these rehearsals it would be very interesting to hear them, but maybe they're just very well hidden in Johnny's basement. At the end the remaining Smiths weren't convinced at all to carry on without Moz with a new singer, and it's quite understandable and it was actually silly they even tried. Marr was interested in his new project with Bernard Sumner, Sell Your Body (which would eventually become Electronic), he didn't need Rourke and Joyce anymore, so The Smiths finally split while Moz was about to launch a successful solo career. At this point (somewhere between Substance and Technique, but can't remember exactly) the press briefly even talked about a New Order split, maybe just as if since Johnny came from a split band, so should have Bernard...

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Ray wrote: Hehehe, that's quite a funny theory. Except... did you know that Rourke and Joyce actually carried on with Morrissey? Rourke has been co-writing and playing with him for quite a while after Marr left the band -- he plays the bass on "November spawned a monster" and co-wrote "Yes I'm blind", for instance. The first Morrissey solo show was played with Rourke, Joyce and Craig Gannon. I'll be happy to expand on this topic :P In case your post was meant to be funny, I'm sorry to have completely missed the humour innit.

*Oh no, it wasn't meant to be funny at all, that's what I remember reading over the years, though I have to apologise because I forgot to say the most of the things I reported were read on the Italian press at the time, so: a) it's 18 years ago b) the Italian press writes a lot of bollocks What you say about Strangeways (the last album) is roughly true because I remember reading that relationships within the band had already deteriorated a lot at the time of the recording and Marr didn't play on some of the sessions. Morrissey, though still devastated after being sacked, could foresee the split and based quite some of the lyrics on the band falling apart, like I Started Something I Couldn't Finish and Stop Me If You Think You've Heard This One Before (which referred also to the press). Anyway the proper sacking happened after the recordings and Rourke and Joyce recently confirmed this in an interview to Uncut. Also I read on an official Italian biography (which I suppose it's rather reliable) about The Smiths with Roddy Frame and this also confirms that Rourke and Joyce, after finishing the recordings, initially chose the Marr side. What probably happened is that when that attempt of carrying on without Morrissey, then Marr defintely split the band and Rourke and Joyce found themselves with nothing to do, so they quickly put aside their differences with Moz and worked with him (and indeed I remember reading of that and being surprised). So, putting things in perspective, the most likely truth is that we both remember correct facts happening at different times. The only difference might have been that Marr had temporarily left the band (or better, the recording sessions) before returning and bringing Rourke and Joyce to his side to sack Moz, but for example the fact Rourke and Joyce finished the sessions doesn't mean it's not true they then tried to carry on with Marr and Frame (before the band's final split and their collaboration with Morrissey)... these events took months to happen and things can change from week to week...

All I have to say is WOW. I am absolutely blown away and utterly impressed by your vast knowledge in The Smiths Mick!! Unbelievable how you know all this stuff!

So let me ask you....if Rourke and the other dude had patched things up with Moz, why did they attempt to sue him in the late 90s, and actually WIN? I remember hearing Richard Blade, who is my favorite DJ of all time, say on KR0Q that during the trial, Moz told the judge that those two band members were as important to the group as lawmower parts or something like that.

Anyway let me ask you this....do you feel that the band are so pissed at each other that there's no amount of money in the world that could patch things up between them and get them all in the studio once again for another Meat is Murder? I mean what gives? Looks at Motley's Crew, Duran Duran, ArrowSmith, Simon and Garfungle, Jamie's Addiction, The Smashing Pumpkins, Robert Smith and Andy Anderson, etc etc... They have all managed to put their differences behind them and re-unite and have come out even stronger beacuse of it!

Hell....I even heard New Order's tensions with each other rivaled The Smiths during the recording of Republic.

Isamu wrote:

Mick Aneworderfan wrote:

Ronald Kirsch wrote:

he's always been with the same girl since 13 years old... (though he sacked Moz from The Smiths, so you can never say)

What the? Can you expand on what you mean by "he sacked Moz..."

He means fired, not teabagged.

I've always understood that Marr quit the Smiths, not fired Morrissey.

Three things:

1.) This thread is probably being criticized by the filth that hang out at the Morrissey-Solo.com message board. This board is a welcomed relief of tolerance compared to that board. They really give the Moz/Smiths fanbase a bad name. They usually go as far on that board to state who is a "real" fan and who are "fake" fans...what a bunch of scum-fuckers...

2.) Do Morrissey and Marr presently have an amicable relationship? I have read in a few places that they have sat down and talked a few times in the past few years and are on friendly terms....I think the court cases kind of brought them together.

3.) Aren't The Smiths up for induction into the Rock and Roll Hall of fame? (Even though they represent everything that is against that type of establishment.) So, if they are inducted, wouldn't there be the slight possiblity that they could regroup for a one-night stand to play again? Bands, that are alive, usually play when they have been inducted...am I right??? I would pay any amount to see that band play live. They mean almost everything to me. I was too young in the 80's to go out and see them in Chicago and when I am finally old enough...they break up! They really put words to everything that we went through during our horrible adolescent periods....they were geniuses!!!!

Ray wrote: [...] Rumours abounded that Johnny Marr [...] was about to reunite with Rourke and Joyce for a new band [...]"

*Thank you for these very interesting quotes. This last one might have something to do with the mess I've read at the time which made me believe the wrong story...

Isamu wrote:

All I have to say is WOW. I am absolutely blown away and utterly impressed by your vast knowledge in The Smiths Mick!! Unbelievable how you know all this stuff!

*You're taking the piss, right? Well, you have the right to... ;)

So let me ask you....if Rourke and the other dude had patched things up with Moz, why did they attempt to sue him in the late 90s, and actually WIN?

*The fact that they actually tried to carry on The Smiths with Morrissey (NOT Marr as I believed) and Roddy Frame, and that other replacement who just stood two days (can't remember the name now) says that, at the time, they sort of patched things up with him. The fact they sued him in the 90s for a bigger share of royalties just means they were running out of money. Anyway only Rourke won the cause, Joyce had previously settled for a good sum out of court.

I remember hearing Richard Blade, who is my favorite DJ of all time, say on KR0Q that during the trial, Moz told the judge that those two band members were as important to the group as lawmower parts or something like that.

*Yeah, he thrown all sorts of insults at them while in court.

Anyway let me ask you this....do you feel that the band are so pissed at each other that there's no amount of money in the world that could patch things up between them and get them all in the studio once again for another Meat is Murder? I mean what gives? Looks at Motley's Crew, Duran Duran, ArrowSmith, Simon and Garfungle, Jamie's Addiction, The Smashing Pumpkins, Robert Smith and Andy Anderson, etc etc... They have all managed to put their differences behind them and re-unite and have come out even stronger beacuse of it!

*Uhm, I think that the original problems behind the split are not that important anymore. Rumours of a reunion have surfaced from time to time, something true might be behind them, maybe they actually thought about it. I don't know about Marr, while I think Morrissey is at a very successful stage with his solo career and he doesn't need a reunion, not like Hooky needed the New Order reunion also because Monaco were selling far below his expectations. Maybe Rourke and Joyce, who must merely survive out of royalties since that Aziz project must have sold less than Gabrielles Wish, would jump at the idea of a reunion, but the real problem could be the grudges Moz maybe has still against them because of them suing him... And remember he sings "bewaaaare! I bear more grudges than lonely high court judges" (genius)

Hell....I even heard New Order's tensions with each other rivaled The Smiths during the recording of Republic.

*Oh yeah, definitely. Hooky must have a really good heart because he has forgiven Barney for that horrible thing he told him after the Reading 1993 gig: "If I never see your face again, it will be too soon" How could Bernard say such a thing, and how could Hooky forgive him is a mistery, but we must be happy they're still together!

Andy wrote:

Isamu wrote: What the? Can you expand on what you mean by "he sacked Moz..."

He means fired, not teabagged.

Just figuring Morrissey thrown into a sack by Marr screaming "This joke isn't funny anymore!"

"If I never see your face again, it will be too soon"

Holy crap he said that???????

Wow, that's a terrible thing to say to guy yoyu've worked with for 15 years :(

Oh and I wasn't taking the piss m8, I really meant what I said.

You probably hadn't read my late post where I said I discovered what I believed for more than 15 years was wrong, then. ;) Barney and Hooky had been mates since the school years, but maybe only relationships lasting so long can break so bad... fortunately our good old Rob, God bless his soul in heaven, brought them together again...

Still wondering what's funnier: Johnny throwing Moz into the sack, or Johnny setting fire to Moz who runs screaming in flames... :D

(The Smashing Pumpkins didn't reunite)

And Phil is doing a damn good job, this last record is solid. My $.02

Mike Rink wrote: (The Smashing Pumpkins didn't reunite)

And Phil is doing a damn good job, this last record is solid. My $.02

The Pumpkins will reunite within the next decade. The 20-year-rotational rule is still in effect, thus making everything 20 years old trendy again. We're moving into 80's more than 70's (as in the 90's), but the 90's will be back in style in the next decade. Then you'll see a lot of reunions.

Isamu wrote: So let me ask you....if Rourke and the other dude had patched things up with Moz, why did they attempt to sue him in the late 90s, and actually WIN?

It wasn't till late after The Smiths split that they actually found out that they weren't getting the same money Morrissey and Marr did. Also, it took a long time till Rourke and Joyce realised Marr and Moz aren't going to pay back; Rourke settled off court because he was so poor he lost his house and had to sell The Big Issue for money (!).

Joyce said that "whenever we received royalty checks, they were always for the same sum for each member... so we didn't have any reason to be suspicious". As for why he won, I think it had less to do with whether the judge agreed with Rourke and Joyce; he was actually trying to punish Morrissey for being, well, Morrissey during the lawsuit. It isn't a wise thing to treat a lawyer the same way you treat a stupid journalist :] There is a brilliant quote in the book "Saint Morrissey" --

Joyce's lawyer: Could I please finish my question? Morrissey: It's much too time consuming. Joyce's lawyer: It's more time consuming if you don't allow me to finish the question. Morrissey: I don't agree.

Isamu wrote: Anyway let me ask you this....do you feel that the band are so pissed at each other that there's no amount of money in the world that could patch things up between them and get them all in the studio once again for another Meat is Murder?

Maybe Marr could be convinced but judging from "Mojo Special" where Rourke and Joyce are interviewed, they won't give up. "The thought of being five feet from Morrissey and enjoying it? Naaah, can't imagine that" says Joyce, when asked.

Isamu wrote: Hell....I even heard New Order's tensions with each other rivaled The Smiths during the recording of Republic.

That's true, I think. But NO didn't sue each other for royalties and remember that while Marr paid his half, Morrissey still disagrees to do so. Also, I agree with Mick -- Moz doesn't need to do it, he's enjoying the biggest wave of success he's had in absolute ages, with four consecutive UK top 10 singles (which could have become five if not for the pointless live single...).

Ray wrote:

Also, it took a long time till Rourke and Joyce realised Marr and Moz aren't going to pay back; Rourke settled off court because he was so poor he lost his house and had to sell The Big Issue for money (!).

So it was Rourke settling, not Joyce. Got the wrong names again!!! Anyway I knew he was poor, but not that poor... fookin hell! That's how he found out he wasn't getting as much as Moz! "How comes I was in The Smiths and now I'm here selling the Big Issue?!". Smart guy. ;)

Actually my only real problem with Morrissey is that he tends to do that; he just believes that being a genius means he should be getting all the money and credits, even if he's not the one doing all the job. Vini Reilly has written most of 'Viva Hate' and isn't mentioned in the credits at all; Rourke & Joyce... well; there are more people who sent him bills but never got paid. Basically once Moz stops needing someone, he also stops paying. Does that stop me from loving his output? No (sadly). Does that mean he is a total asshole? Yes.

Very interesting guys!

Let me ask you...what the hell is The Big Issue?