Mad as a badger?

I've mentioned this a few times lately and no one ever seems to pick up on it. I dunno if it's cos everyone agrees or cos they all think I'm insane......lemme know.

Basically I'd say that Steve is an exceptionally good drummer, he may not be very groovy but he is precise to the point where even highly competant drummers I know constantly mistake him for a machine (easy done when so many tracks ARE machine). His timing is utterly amazing, and his style's bloody good. The rest of them.....well, they are the proof that anyone really can form the best band in the world. They're never gonna cut it as session players, or change careers and pop off to join a samba orchestra or something. I mean Hooky, as much as I worship the ground he walks on, is not Les claypool or jacko pastorias ( neither are they ooky of course). Bernard is an amazing songwriter and sometimes a fairly good singer, but could you see him giving a classical guitar recital?

Please do not misunderstand, I love New Order, I love their music. But if we snap ourselves out of our little reality and look at them in the context of the wider world of music ( and I really mean....just bypass the charts and go for real music, awful tho much of it may be:) ), three of them are kinda average and one is very much above.

In some ways I suppose it's what I love most about them, they show that if the music is in you, it will get out whether you are trained or not. And if you ever want to see that the precise opposite is true.....ask about 95% of trained classical performers to join in on a jam without a score or even being told what key it's in....they turn white and have a seizure at the thought of doing something other than playing back a score....no music in them you see.

So to sum up... Am I right, they rule, but apart from Steve, none of them would be likely to be talked about seriously by their peers as being "among the best" ( remember, we're talking technique here, not passion or WHAT they play, purely their ultimate ability to play.

OR... Am I rambling old fuckwitt who's listened to too much jazz and prog rock and has gone mental trying to rationalize his love of 4 twats.

PS, this is real NO I'm talking not the new 3+philler arrangement, so Gillian's in the mix with all those great concert and jazz pianists!!!!!!!

What ever drugs you're taking, can you send them to me please.:D

Why are there so many post slagging New Order - Live, Have you all missed the point?

OMG, I'm really not slagging them, I adore them.

But honestly, in terms of skill, knowledge and sheer playing genius, would you TRULY rank Gillian among the world's finest concert pianists, or barney among the great guitar viruosi?

I'm not saying they suck because of this, I'm saying that maybe those other buggers suck despite their talent, I'm saying what I said....that New Order transcend musical ability and prove that music really does belong to everyone with a tune in their heart.

I KNow I've slagged Barney off a bit recently, but that's more to do with him being more of an asshole than he strictly needs to be with the band sometimes. I don't want the man crucified or chucked out the band, I'd rather someone took him for a pint and a spliff and said "right mate, cut the crap, what exactly IS up your arse". I don't mind that he fucks up loads, I mind that he fucks up loads then puts on his pouty teenager face as soon as anyone else drops one.

Also I am aware I tend to babble and get over excited, but I am A) housebound 99% of the time. B.) off my nut on kewl painkillers C.) owing to A+B, suffering from the most amazing sleep deprivation. and D.) here because it's one of the few places I know that no matter how annoying some people seem, they must be ok, because nobody TRULY nasty likes New Order :)

I'm not dying or anything, and there's no danger of it (that I am currently aware of.....just in case you're listening god and want to prove a point:) ). I'm just sore, pissed off, skint, bored to the point of chewing my limbs off, and have bugger all better to do. They will fix me, and my posts will grow shorter and make more sense ( tho probably not eough to notice)

LOL @ me......I actually wondered above^^ if God read NOOL. Idiot. Course he does where else is the almighty gonna get his info on his fave band.

And let's face it, they must be on a mission from God...a la blues brothers....the difference is, there mission is to show people that music can exist in between vacuous shite and overclever wankery, to show that a big hairy fucker with a lump of wood round his neck can make other big hairy fuckers cry, and to show that an apparent village idiot like Bernard, can say more in one couplet than many of the world's greatest poets and authors could in screeds ad infinitum.

Steve , Why is Barney an Ass Hole?

There are things he does. both on 5:11 and the Ross show, that just give me the impression he REALLY detests Hooky, or his following, or something. It'd be easier to sit here with the stuff and point it out to be honest. I just always see Bernard as somehow, the root of most of the unrest in the band. His artistic soul and all that? In fairness the Ross show thing could well be bbc editting, as it just shows Barney with this "punch me I'm a cunt" look on his face at the precise moment Hooky got his Clang in at the end.....if the self same look was not really directed at Hooky then I apologise to errrrrrr the truth I guess:)

My impression

Steve is, as he has always said, perfectly content to sit there and go boom bash at fairly regular intervals. Hooky just wants to play his bass very loud and if people are willing to pay him and cheer all the better. Bernard is looking for something, yearning. It first shows up in NO story, a bitterness ( as I think Mr Allen even says), and seems to grow worse with time. Perhaps he really does think the Factory era held them back terribly ( a point of view he does seem to hold, and that I disagree with strongly), and perhaps he's really struggling to shape New Order into what he thinks they could have been without this perceived impedement. Perhaps it really is all in my head, as my GF says, if I've got fook all to do and 20hrs a day to do it, AND a hyperactive mind at the best of times, it won't take me long to find something to worry about. Then again, I was of this opinion long before my current situation.

I just want "me old mucker the Barnster" to cheer up a bit, spend more time happy, like he is on that NYC boot, takin the piss outta Americans, but not in a harsh way.

No offence, Steve, but your meandering assertions above reek of elitist professional-muso crapola to me. I don't really care how they do what they do, I just like it when they do it (and hope they continue to do so for many years).

The ability to play any instrument has bugger all to do with being able to write a great tune. Trying to reconcile virtuoisity with NO is utterly pointless.

I'm reasonably competent at guitar, bass and keyboards, but gave up trying to write The World's Greatest Song on them long ago -it's just a different skill entirely that NO have evolved, and a very rare one too. Don't try to analyse what ain't there, eh? CTB

oh dear I've come accross all wrong.

I KNOW they are truly the best band in the world.

FWIW, I'm strictly on THEIR side of the equation, not too hot, but JUST good enough to play what I feel.

STEVE........what is the PAIN you are suffering caused by?This is a SERIOUS question mate!I hate to think of OTHERS suffering.I too don't come across VERY WELL when i am DOWN so i can UNDERSTAND where you are coming from! Regards ROCKET MICK

Thank you Mick, that's very kind.

Readers of a nervous disposition may wish to look away.....

I got this thing called "hidrodenitis supurritiva" (I prolly spelled it wrong). Broadly what it is.....the sweat glands that normally produce pheromones, those in the groin and armpits take it into their head to produce puss instead of sweat. Result is egg size bubbles of goo under the skin in the sorts of places where it's impossible to avoid injuring them, and these puss bubbles like to turn into nasty abcesses. The upshot of this is that I'm off work with no idea when I'm going back, and I'm fook all use to my GF( the kindest, gentlest human being I've ever met), but at least with the lack of pheromones, I'm even more unsexy thn usual, so she's just hangin for the company :) I know if someone told me that they had ruddy great sores all over their sweat glands, my first thought would be..."downwind NOW ya mingin bastard, you never heard of soap", but actually, hygene aint really a factor, and tbh I have found that washing too much makes things worse, as it leaves the skin moist and ready for bacteria (one of the oddest ancilliary effects is that the skin around the imeadiately affected area goes sort of spongy and holds water....making it prime colonizing territory.

You want the really scarey shit....?

when an infection starts up, it spreads by striking out along veins....imagine a big blister bursting, but because it is so deep, it bursts out along veins, sometimes along maybe 3-4 inches at once, sometimes my body disperses it, sometimes it takes hold and a new area forms. It's made several attempts on my important bits, but fortunately the outside skin and the inside bits are very cleverly design to thwart such nastiness. They've offered me a drug, if I told you they gave me 4 months to THINK about it, you'd know it was bad. If I listed a few of the side effects.....dry skin, dry eyes, nose dry, cracked, and bleeding, depression, mental disorders (possibly permanent), occasional SUICIDE!!!!!..and on and on and on. AND there are no promises it'll do any good at all as fook all seems to. The other choice, and if the drug fails, the only choice, is surgery. they will scoop BIG chunks of me out, cos you gotta go deep to take out glands apparently (gotta be a doc here?). Apprently (I got this from the support group website[1]) they used to do deep flesh grafts from yer legs, but since fookin great sccops out yer legs is vile lookin, they now pack the hole with SHARK CARTLIDGE!!! and then graft just a bit of your skin over it. I have no fear whatsoever of surgery, or the pain of the procedure, but I really REALLY don't do hospitals, can't sleep in them, can't settle in them, I just go mad.

Did I mention my employer hasn't sacked me, but forgot to pay me sick pay, and wont answer my messages, and that I gotta move house in the middle of all this.

LOL if I was a horse they'd shoot me.

Maybe that's where all this Barney angst is coming from? I really do have too much time to think and too little to think about, and I see something in Bernard that's been a part of me while I've been like this.....there are times when you just want to strangle people for saying hello, or not saying hello, or talking to someone else, or any one of a million things that should never raise a hair. Why, because you're concentrating so hard just existing that you cannot afford to be distracted. Not the same thing with Bernard, more like he's just SO desperate for New Order to be a proper band it drives him looney when they prove to be New Order. Perhaps I've misread him and his moody lookin gob is BECAUSE he knows his mistakes, it's easier to yell at others, I'm guilty of it myself somtimes. I'll prolly be editing this all day cos I can never see errors til after I post, no matter if I use preview or not.

[1] LOL, what a fucking grim place, you ever seen the episode of the Simpsons where homer has his jaw wired? Hibert hands him a leaflet and says "this may help", the title of the leaflet is "so, your life is ruined".....that's about the tone of that place.

Wow Steve, I just started reading your post to the missus, who suffers from lupus and has recently broken out in terrible hives...and even she said, "Wow, that's disgusting!" Speaking of Homer Simpson, I'm remembering the episode where he was shipped off to a leper colony...which turned out to be a big lifestyle improvement. We'll see you there.

You should, at least, have a good deal of time to finish your Jetstream remix.

Back on topic (sort of), I do wince whenever I hear Peter Hook referred to as "world's greatest bass player" or somesuch. He's good, yes, but his value is in forging a unique and amazing style. It's easy to imitate him, but the second you do, you're ripping him off and everyone knows it.

Barney, however...I've argued before that his playing in Joy Division was amazing...true guitar hero quality.

STEVE......that is an AWFUL situation to be in.The one thing you have still got going for you his your sense of HUMOUR.And the fact that your girlfriend is still with you must be of great comfort too.Please keep us informed of your situation and for what it is worth at least you have NOOL's listening to you.Although i thought i was in a BAD STATE at the moment,no money,g/f,job and general depression it would make my troubles seem a BREEZE in comparison to yours.I have only just got work for 4 hours per day.This won't even pay my basic bills or mortgage but my son and some friends have HELPED me through such times. So in essence i don't think what you write about the band should be analysed as much as your GENERAL condition.Hopefully a few of us round here will not take LIFE for granted! Regards and a speedy recovery ROCKET MICK

They're stroppy fuckers with no talent, then - isn't that why we love them so?

Martian really should be here for this discussion.

Steve Campbell wrote: Thank you Mick, that's very kind.

Readers of a nervous disposition may wish to look away.....

I got this thing called "hidrodenitis supurritiva" (I prolly spelled it wrong). Broadly what it is.....the sweat glands that normally produce pheromones, those in the groin and armpits take it into their head to produce puss instead of sweat. Result is egg size bubbles of goo under the skin in the sorts of places where it's impossible to avoid injuring them, and these puss bubbles like to turn into nasty abcesses. The upshot of this is that I'm off work with no idea when I'm going back, and I'm fook all use to my GF( the kindest, gentlest human being I've ever met), but at least with the lack of pheromones, I'm even more unsexy thn usual, so she's just hangin for the company :)

wow. sounds not unlike the bubonic plague, my son. there's something rather gothic and fascinating about that. i don't mean to sound flippant about your struggle, but i've had pleurisy three times in the past year and a half and while pleurisy is by no means as severe as your condition, i occasionally imagine a romantic scene, like i'm the consumptive cathy waiting for heathcliff to come and take her hand. i guess it's because i thought weird illnesses like these (pleurisy, buboes under the armpits) died away with the horse-drawn carriage!

anyway, back to your comment: i do see your point about steve; i do think he's quite an accomplished drummer. however, i think comparing classical musicians to popular musicians is comparing apples and oranges. they make such different music and apply unique styles for varying audiences. no, i don't think barney could successfully play classical guitar, but nor do i think a classical guitarist could successfully do what barney does. this is why i appreciate many different kinds of music--each musician expresses his or her talent in the way he or she is best suited and this comes out in the music he or she produces. this does not, however, apply to kenny g. he has no talent, whatsoever.

Bloody hell, Steve - I feel a right bastard now for the glib stroppiness of my earlier reply.

Really sorry to hear about your condition - it sounds bloody horrible, to put it mildly. All I can say is concentrate on getting better; and don't worry too much about The Order, they'll sort themselves out without having to think too hard about how to do it, as always.

Sounds like great support you have from your GF Chin up, here to things on the improve CTB

People, so many things to say.

Firstly and most importantly, Yes Kenny G is without any talent, artistic merit or right to oxygen.

Secondly, thank you all very much, I'm touched. See I've said this before, there are people here who have views that would make me leave their presence ordinarily (I'm sure, I aint never seen such), people who rip into me and who I rip into. But when push comes to shove everyone here, apart perhaps from the odd flyby gibberer, or pro/con (jet/jizz)stream fundamentalists, understands New Order, understands that there's a box over there, with music in it, but over here there's a big shelf with New Order on it, seperate, apart, the other. And that understanding is important, it sets the people here apart from other Humans...we GET it, and because of that we can all trust one another.

As for the state of me...Mick, mate I'd not swap with you, you got commitments, I just got sore bollox :) (not TECHNICALLY accurate, but hey lyricists license?). I also have a crazy blonde girl who has had so many shite boyfriends, that for some reason she just ADORES me, even tho tbh I don't reckon she fancies me all that much, I'm no oil paintin, we'll know for sure when/if I get rid of this shit:). She's got the face of an angel and the body of a porn star, and could have any many she wanted, and the lat time I pointed that out to her, you know what she did....? She just stuck her best mona lisa smile on, looked me in the eye and said "yeah, I probably could, and where am I sitting right now? work it out!!!". She has those 3 colour eyes from Temptation, I think she's the reason I've been listening ONLY to New Order (between Dr Who audio books...will explain why in due course) recently, New Order are the only thing in the world that can match her beauty. She's the only thing that's got me through the last year, the only friend who does not think I'm on the skive and going for the double whammy of using it as an excuse to be a bigger twat that usual. We've barely kissed and I don't think either of us is exactly sure what sort of relationship we really should have....except that neither of us wants to be with anyone but the other. I know that's wandering off, but the point is, I've never had that before, and it offsets my pain and anoyance no end. So yeah Mick, things sounds really shitty for you man.

But for laughs, here's a couple of beauties for you.

The sneaky bastard goes into dormancy now and then....in fact I can MAKE it go dormant....by not moving a muscle other than bed-bog-food-sofa-bed. And of course my first thought is...."Campbell you bloody fraud, get back to work", but then when something as simple as a bus journey to the hospital to be offered poison or vivsection ( :) )can kick it off again, I get that one shattered.

The painkillers keep me awake The having shite all to do, keeps me awake not moving and therefore not expending energy, keeps me awake staring at a CRT or TV all day, keeps me awake (hence audio books). the antibiotics...stop me eating, make me ill, and keep me awake. I've taken to smokin weed to stop me bouncing the pills back out ( and I always though all those chemo patients were trying it on), and the only weed available at the minute is some insane sativa that acts like redbull for the mind.....and it keeps me awake (can't get owt else cos I KNOW this soure has no links to terrorists or their horrid brown poison, and that's important to me).

I've been up since midday yesterday GMT (really GMT btw, easier to define it that way even tho we're on BST right now) 26 hrs and counting.

I'm in such a sodding mood that even if my sister does as she threatens and buys me a ticket to oxegen, and takes me down, I wont wanna go cos the crowds will wind me up.

TBH I've narrowed it down to two things, either the universe is puishing me for my past evils, and if so I can take it on the chin...OR it's just having a laugh at my expense, and once it's had it;s fun everything will turn out for the best. :)

Other things....Barney....yeah I keep forgetting he was kickass in JD, AND that he's pulled off some serious funk on NO stuff.

Clayhead whacked the nail right on the bonce I think.

Gnu, yer missus is lucky she cannae smell it, the stuff comes out pre-rancid....did I mention the pustules blow outwards sometimes as well as leak? Do you know what it's like to be glad to find blood running down your leg? ( females, can keep the "worst way to end a pregnancy scare" stories) It's bliss, cos it means that the stretching of my achin ass has relented, and the pain just stops ( relatively speaking). Oh and I slightly dissagree with you about Hooky, I think his style should ultimately be considered a valid style, like slap bass. I've managed to do tracks with lots of melodic bass with varying degrees of seperation from a distinctly New Order sound. I truly hope it lives on after the old bastard gets one last note too many in and barney finally shoots him. Like the idea of leper colony, but I'm in ireland, the difference is infinitesimal :)

Oddly enough I thought of bubonic plague too....I wonder is that why there where so interested in whether I had them elsewhere. SHRIEK!!!!!.

Oh yes....the ultimate laugh....this thing most commonly affects women with hormone problems ROFLMAO.....must be like I said me GF...I'm like Eddie Izzard, a Lesbian trapped in a man's body.

EDIT: Oh shit I just realise my comment about pregnancy scares could be read two ways...I mean the sudden arrival of a period and NOTHING else, oh shit I hope nobody took it to mean something else.

CTB wrote: Bloody hell, Steve - I feel a right bastard now for the glib stroppiness of my earlier reply.

Utterly without cause my dear chap, told you I take no ofence from any of the brotherhood :)

Steve Campbell wrote: People, so many things to say.

Firstly and most importantly, Yes Kenny G is without any talent, artistic merit or right to oxygen.

Secondly, thank you all very much, I'm touched. See I've said this before, there are people here who have views that would make me leave their presence ordinarily (I'm sure, I aint never seen such), people who rip into me and who I rip into. But when push comes to shove everyone here, apart perhaps from the odd flyby gibberer, or pro/con (jet/jizz)stream fundamentalists, understands New Order, understands that there's a box over there, with music in it, but over here there's a big shelf with New Order on it, seperate, apart, the other. And that understanding is important, it sets the people here apart from other Humans...we GET it, and because of that we can all trust one another.

As for the state of me...Mick, mate I'd not swap with you, you got commitments, I just got sore bollox :) (not TECHNICALLY accurate, but hey lyricists license?). I also have a crazy blonde girl who has had so many shite boyfriends, that for some reason she just ADORES me, even tho tbh I don't reckon she fancies me all that much, I'm no oil paintin, we'll know for sure when/if I get rid of this shit:). She's got the face of an angel and the body of a porn star, and could have any many she wanted, and the lat time I pointed that out to her, you know what she did....? She just stuck her best mona lisa smile on, looked me in the eye and said "yeah, I probably could, and where am I sitting right now? work it out!!!". She has those 3 colour eyes from Temptation, I think she's the reason I've been listening ONLY to New Order (between Dr Who audio books...will explain why in due course) recently, New Order are the only thing in the world that can match her beauty. She's the only thing that's got me through the last year, the only friend who does not think I'm on the skive and going for the double whammy of using it as an excuse to be a bigger twat that usual. We've barely kissed and I don't think either of us is exactly sure what sort of relationship we really should have....except that neither of us wants to be with anyone but the other. I know that's wandering off, but the point is, I've never had that before, and it offsets my pain and anoyance no end. So yeah Mick, things sounds really shitty for you man.

But for laughs, here's a couple of beauties for you.

The sneaky bastard goes into dormancy now and then....in fact I can MAKE it go dormant....by not moving a muscle other than bed-bog-food-sofa-bed. And of course my first thought is...."Campbell you bloody fraud, get back to work", but then when something as simple as a bus journey to the hospital to be offered poison or vivsection ( :) )can kick it off again, I get that one shattered.

The painkillers keep me awake The having shite all to do, keeps me awake not moving and therefore not expending energy, keeps me awake staring at a CRT or TV all day, keeps me awake (hence audio books). the antibiotics...stop me eating, make me ill, and keep me awake. I've taken to smokin weed to stop me bouncing the pills back out ( and I always though all those chemo patients were trying it on), and the only weed available at the minute is some insane sativa that acts like redbull for the mind.....and it keeps me awake (can't get owt else cos I KNOW this soure has no links to terrorists or their horrid brown poison, and that's important to me).

I've been up since midday yesterday GMT (really GMT btw, easier to define it that way even tho we're on BST right now) 26 hrs and counting.

I'm in such a sodding mood that even if my sister does as she threatens and buys me a ticket to oxegen, and takes me down, I wont wanna go cos the crowds will wind me up.

TBH I've narrowed it down to two things, either the universe is puishing me for my past evils, and if so I can take it on the chin...OR it's just having a laugh at my expense, and once it's had it;s fun everything will turn out for the best. :)

Other things....Barney....yeah I keep forgetting he was kickass in JD, AND that he's pulled off some serious funk on NO stuff.

Clayhead whacked the nail right on the bonce I think.

Gnu, yer missus is lucky she cannae smell it, the stuff comes out pre-rancid....did I mention the pustules blow outwards sometimes as well as leak? Do you know what it's like to be glad to find blood running down your leg? ( females, can keep the "worst way to end a pregnancy scare" stories) It's bliss, cos it means that the stretching of my achin ass has relented, and the pain just stops ( relatively speaking). Oh and I slightly dissagree with you about Hooky, I think his style should ultimately be considered a valid style, like slap bass. I've managed to do tracks with lots of melodic bass with varying degrees of seperation from a distinctly New Order sound. I truly hope it lives on after the old bastard gets one last note too many in and barney finally shoots him. Like the idea of leper colony, but I'm in ireland, the difference is infinitesimal :)

Oddly enough I thought of bubonic plague too....I wonder is that why there where so interested in whether I had them elsewhere. SHRIEK!!!!!.

Oh yes....the ultimate laugh....this thing most commonly affects women with hormone problems ROFLMAO.....must be like I said me GF...I'm like Eddie Izzard, a Lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Mate, that is rough: you sound like the walking, talking embodiment of a Cronenberg movie. And as for your good lady - as Barney is so fond of saying, "don't look into the sun, don't look into the sun...."

Take care of yourself.

ROFLMAO as long as I keep my kit on and don't attempt major feats of athleticism, you'd never know but for the limp and the occasional wimper or yelp. Having said that, there are times when the following conversation will occur. "What u want for tea" "fuck off I'm busy" So I'm certainly a monster :)

She really is a good lady ( and a real lady too), and oddly enough often phones me as she stumbles out of work at sorta 7 or 8 in the mornin....and for some reason I spend all day with the first verse of Dream Attack lodge firmly between my ears.

Another nice thing out of the whole affair is, i have come over all funny with "glad I lived to see..." ( not cos of this, but because this could have been any one of a thousand worse things)thoughts. The return of Dr Who (tears were released over this, I think it's important for kids to have role models who win by superior intelligence alone...although I recently realised I picked up SO many bad habits from Tom Baker it's untrue!) Hearing New Order Fuck up on Woss Hearing New Order NOT fuck up on JH Hearing Barney say cunt to $N000 Americans Hearing Barney's Ian routine. And seeing love in the eyes of a woman so lovely that even ofter 3 years of staring at her like a moron, I could gladly stare for another 30

Steve Campbell wrote: Like the idea of leper colony, but I'm in ireland, the difference is infinitesimal :)

You're one of them leperchans, ain't cha?

No, and I don't know fookin jamesie from dublin either .

ROFLMAO. I can't even spell the feckin word, I'm far from little, and if you grab me and ask me for my crock of gold, I'm more likely to discorge my stomach contents on you than anything else :)

Fact...Ireland is NOT an island, it's a great big fuck off mat of moss floating on the atlantic...it's moored to Rathlin and the Isle of man in the North and Cornwall in the south.

irrelevent bit... That is why the humidity here is invariably higher than in New Orleans or Marseille ( the first 2 swampy places I could thnk of to check)

Nowt wrong with that guv :)

Steve, this is quickly becoming Thread of the Year. Not in a funny sense, mind...though I'm glad to see you have a sense of humor about it all. Crazy, bizarre, hilarious, occasionally grotesque...and yet totally human and insightful, full of great tidbits on New Order and the strengths of being amongst the living. You're an inspiration to us all.

Now that we're all up to date on your pus status, did you ever get your MIDI gating problem sorted?

havent read most of the posts above

but wasn't hooky voted the bass players bass player last year?

My fondest memory of "voted best _____ player" comes from some mid-80s readers poll in Rolling Stone magazine, when Phil Collins was voted "Best Singer," and "Best Keyboardist" was, of course, Eddie Van Halen (apparently on the strength of "Jump.")